Ren'Py What a Legend! [v0.7.05] [MagicNuts]

[Porthas]

So, because you've seen some devs behave like assholes, does that automatically mean that every dev is going to be one?
I've met a few con-men, it doesn't mean that I automatically assume every person I meet is one.

I've made this point, purely based on the system itself. I've made no negative (or positive) statements about these developers. Human nature being what it is, we do things mostly on financial incentive. Money is what we need to eat, provide housing, take care of our loved one's, etc. It's why with a project like these, games, I prefer to to offer financial incentive for finished projects.

Of course it doesn't offer incentive to finish projects. It never claimed to, that's not what a patron does.

So we agree then. Considering how many people expect a finished game from these projects, I don't think many people go into sponsoring a project with an attitude that they don't care whether the game is finished or not. It would appear that most people view these patron payments like an investment into a finished product. Like perhaps a Kickstarter campaign.

It's why people get irritated if it looks like all their money went to nothing (an unfinished game) and it's also why, if folks have been donating for a while, they may be reluctant to pull out of a project. They don't want to see something they invested in fail.

 

[Porthas]

Yes & you've just made precisely the correct point: "people expect".
People should understand what they're signing up for & manage their expectations accordingly.
No-one signed up to Patreon to buy a game, regardless of whether they thought they did, or not.

If they spent a bit of time understanding what they were actually doing with their money, instead of assuming what they're doing with it, they wouldn't get so irritated.
Key point of prev: "It never claimed to".
If they expect something they have no right to expect, it's not on anyone else, but them.

The Patreon system is not "flawed". It operates with exactly the same model as patrons have for centuries (as Biscardone showed in his post re. one of Da Vinci's patrons getting annoyed by him working at a snail's pace).

Ultimately it'll become a problem for the entire system as folks slowly catch on that a large portion of these projects never get finished and their expectations don't get met. Then it'll become a large problem for the small developers using this system as involvement drops off. So, whether or not people "should" expect x or y from Patreon, what ultimately matters is a system that satisfies both parties in the exchange.

 

[whichone]

Ultimately it'll become a problem for the entire system as folks slowly catch on that a large portion of these projects never get finished and their expectations don't get met. Then it'll become a large problem for the small developers using this system as involvement drops off. So, whether or not people "should" expect x or y from Patreon, what ultimately matters is a system that satisfies both parties in the exchange.

Doesn't alter the fact.
People should only expect what they're actually entitled to.
It's why most of their arguments get dismissed as "entitled". Because they're moaning about something they had no right to expect & that's on them, no-one else.
It doesn't take much to find out the facts about what they're doing with their money. If they choose not to & believe something else, it's entirely their fault.

The system is not flawed.
It does what it states & that is precisely what it should do, by literal definition of the term "

You must be registered to see the links

".
People assuming what they're signing up for & then finding out it's not what they assumed, does not equate to a flawed system.
It's simply:

 

[Porn_Jesus]

If only this lazy forum would have a filter for words like milking, lazy dev, xx amount of cash/month and so on that would trigger auto deletion of comments.

Wouldn't that be a sight, being spared from the same shit for once without having to either block all the spammers (they multiply, sadly) or entire threads...

 

[moskyx]

Actually, Patreon system is almost perfect, if there's honesty from the artist. Do you want to support an artist lifestyle? You can, just sign up and keep paying until you change your mind about them. Do you want to 'buy' a product? You can, just sign up right after the artist releases something, pay the amount of money you think their creation deserves, and then unsubscribe a second later. In this particular case we have more than enough info to adjust our expectations and choose what to do with our money: a big map, a lot of girls and side stories to tell, a very personal artstyle that takes time to be done, 6 updates released so far (each one bigger and 'slower' than the previous one), and daily reports that show the development pace - so all of us can easily infere this is going to take a while. Sure, all of this lead many people to think it's not worth their money for whatever reason (mine is they're doing more than OK without my financial support - and here you have another bit of info, as they don't hide their income figures as others do), but there are almost 2k people who are happy enough with it to keep funding this project and its creators. And they are not 'wrong' nor fooled into a con, they just have other expectations than those who freely choose not to spend a single buck on this. All I'd hope from non-supporters is to at least be honest and not spread lies or insult the devs and the actual supporters that, in the end, make the game possible and free for all.

 

[whichone]

If only this lazy forum would have a filter for words like milking, lazy dev, xx amount of cash/month and so on that would trigger auto deletion of comments.

Wouldn't that be a sight, being spared from the same shit for once without having to either block all the spammers (they multiply, sadly) or entire threads...

Unfortunately, there's a limit on the number you can block.

 

[Xupuzulla]

If only this lazy forum would have a filter for words like milking, lazy dev, xx amount of cash/month and so on that would trigger auto deletion of comments.

Wouldn't that be a sight, being spared from the same shit for once without having to either block all the spammers (they multiply, sadly) or entire threads...

You want this pirate site to be a echo chamber where the devs only get praise?

 

[whichone]

You want this pirate site to be a echo chamber where the devs only get praise?

No, but neither do I want it to be an echo chamer for invalid criticism that gets trotted out without any valid evidence to support it.
Particularly not when the facts are easily established & contrary to that criticism.

Yes, this episode has taken a long time, but it's the biggest one they've done yet, so it's expected to take a bit longer than the previous ones.
On top of that, they had a new child & Pistachio was hospitalised twice for two operations. Those obviously slow them down considerably.
These devs post a weekly update, so anyone who's not satisfied with the progress can withdraw their support at any time they wish, if the progress does not meet their expectation.
They have offered numerous refunds to patrons.
They give the game away for free.

So baseless accusations of "milking" are just trash.

 

[Xupuzulla]

You can always report posts or ignore users you dont like.
Personally i think filters words is a terrible idea and i hope it never happens.

 

[whichone]

You can always report posts or ignore users you dont like.
Personally i think filters words is a terrible idea and i hope it never happens.

Yes, I agree that an auto-delete function on key words would be awful.
There are absolutely cases where the term "milking" is valid & comments can then serve as a warning to others.

But, when the term is just lazily banded around & applied to games that don't warrant it, it loses that capability of warning, as most will end up ignoring it as they've seen it used so many times without just cause.
It removes the urgency.

 

[TheDevian]

To ensure that they can continue earning a decent salary doing something that they enjoy for a living.

You talk as if their support will unconditionally remain. It won't.
If they do what you're suggesting & just string patrons along, they won't be able to make a living from it for very long.
If they ensure that what they deliver is good & justifies the wait (along with the already accepted justification for the delay, caused by two operations & a new child), then their existing patrons remain happy.

Finshing a project is not exactly necessary & doesn't need to be the goal, for these types of games.
If they can come up with new stories, new areas to explore, etc, why does the project need to end?
As long as they can maintain their own interest in telling a story & keep coming up with fresh ideas that keep players engaged, "finishing a project" is really not necessary.

How many times have you reached the end of an enjoyable game & wished there was more of it? I can think of a good few.

Well, there is one reason to finish, and that is that you can make a LOT more money on Steam and stuff than you can on Patreon, even for a well supported dev. So if you are not using Illusion's art for your game, than finishing it is certainly worth while. If you finish a game, and then start a new one, you will make a lot more than "milking" as so many accuse devs of doing.

 

[DemiMaximoff]

These "patreon is just like the patron system of the past" comments have to stop. Ain't no artist keeping their head if they promise the king paintings every one or two months, and then keep collecting from his treasury without any output for 1.5 years.

Patreon users are not funded by one big rich man. They are funded by many non-rich men, whom, given their financial decisions seen here, are deservedly non-rich

 

[sadly_smashed]

Played it last year. Really good game, very complete. Search it up to see how far it has gone, and, nothing? what hell happened? I just saw a devlog on the other page so it is not abandoned, has every single adult game dev just decided not to finish their games to keep the patreon thing?

 

[FreelancerFL]

5 months later no update, damn they're worse at releasing games than SR7

 

[Garrettino]

5 months later no update, damn they're worse at releasing games than SR7

Check your math again bud.
That's 1 year, 5 months (17), later.

 

[moskyx]

I'm sure there must be a discord somewhere sending them on waves. It seems statistically impossible that so many people just happen to regain interest in the exact same game precisely right after someone starts mentioning the m-word again

 

[triple_aaa]

Don't think we'll be able to play the update this year imo which is a first. Ngl, I'm so tired of all this waiting...

 

[wd1111]

These "patreon is just like the patron system of the past" comments have to stop. Ain't no artist keeping their head if they promise the king paintings every one or two months, and then keep collecting from his treasury without any output for 1.5 years.

Patreon users are not funded by one big rich man. They are funded by many non-rich men, whom, given their financial decisions seen here, are deservedly non-rich

I have another theory - diversification, most of these devs start with 1 game, but quickly realize that 5 starter that do catch on rake in a lot more than a single, constantly updated, project
so they keep making new projects to get more and more $$, leaving less and less time to finish any of the projects, because the excuses here and the reports are just silly at this point

and you have the white knight supporter army to defend them for free of course

 

[Porn_Jesus]

Don't think we'll be able to play the update this year imo which is a first. Ngl, I'm so tired of all this waiting...
View attachment 3161448

Being twice as tired from all the slow speed crying. Like this would speed up things.

 

[walker188]

Don't think we'll be able to play the update this year imo which is a first. Ngl, I'm so tired of all this waiting...
View attachment 3161448

There's twenty days left, OF COURSE we aren't getting an update this year. That said, the real question is when does it release next year?

At the current pace, March would be a safe bet.