Ren'Py What a Legend! [v0.7.05] [MagicNuts]

[Knight]

Did you not read, or understand, the context?
If their patrons withdrew support, they wouldn't have "easy patreon money".
They wouldn't have any money, hence they would need to get jobs to provide for their family which, in turn, would mean less time available for development.

So the post that he replied to, suggesting that if everyone withdrew their support, then the devs would suddenly produce an update, he's pointing out that it doesn't necessarily work out that way.
In fact, it can quite feasibly have the opposite effect.

That's only in the long term. If they had half their supporters cancel and leave messages like "I am not coming back until you update" then things would change rapidly. Also, getting a job after you have been out of the workforce for years isn't so easy, especially for those in competitive fields like graphic design. I don't know what the personal circumstances of the artists are but unless they have other more in demand skills it wouldn't be as easy as doing the patreon bit.

Also, lets be honest for a minute, if your employer didn't put pressure on you to work your full hours (or in my case a lot more), would you? After several months where the money keeps coming in despite less and less work being done you would settle in to a much more relaxed routine where work would not be a priority. That kind of thing is super common on Patreon due to how the system is set up.

 

[whichone]

That's only in the long term. If they had half their supporters cancel and leave messages like "I am not coming back until you update" then things would change rapidly.

On what basis would "things change rapidly"? They can't magically produce this update any quicker.
Patrons dropping out doesn't mean there are more hours in the day.

They had a new child and the male dev was hospitalised twice, for operations. That's 3 decent sized chunks of time which were simply not available to them - it's also the biggest update they've done yet, hence the update taking longer & patrons accepting that as justification.
A bunch of random pirates not accepting it is utterly irrelevant to their business.

That kind of thing is super common on Patreon due to how the system is set up.

I don't dispute that, but we're not discussing Patreon's system, or the shitty behaviour of some other devs.
What I dispute is that assumption\generalisation being arbitrarily applied to this dev, when all evidence points to the contrary.

It's gone up 1.5% in the last 1.5 weeks. There is only 7.1% remaining. At current rate, the maths is pretty simple.

 

[Airell]

Did you not read, or understand, the context?
If their patrons withdrew support, they wouldn't have "easy patreon money".
They wouldn't have any money, hence they would need to get jobs to provide for their family which, in turn, would mean less time available for development.

So the post that he replied to, suggesting that if everyone withdrew their support, then the devs would suddenly produce an update, he's pointing out that it doesn't necessarily work out that way.
In fact, it can quite feasibly have the opposite effect.

No. Rewarding unproductivity only encourages the person or team to remain unproductive. This is simply logical, if you make a lot of money without needing to show productivity, you don't need to worry about being productive. It is precisely this type of behavior from fans that destroys a project.

As much as people like a game and everything, you need to remain at least rational and realize when something is clearly wrong. Give money to someone not to work, and they will never work.

This is the old drama that repeats itself again and again, the infamous development nightmare.

 

[Ssato243]

That wouldn't be the problem, but if you keep taking money monthly without delivering any content for years, that's simply wrong, regardless of the passion people have for the project, forget that sentimentality for a moment and use your rationality.

Again, this is an old drama. It's not the first time and it won't be the last that a popular game falls into a development nightmare because the only ones who can demand productivity from the devs don't do it.

Tomorrow this will happen again, another popular game will emerge and fall into the development nightmare, and people will complain about the exact same things.

i hope not also hope not the development hell

 

[Nevermind_1979]

Side point - are there any projects when the next update after the long wait is significantly quicker? I am trying to remember any games where devs managed to overcome the slow down, but so far it looks like if something like this happens, the development is in deep waters for good.

 

[whichone]

Just saying this isn't new... An old soap opera, and I had expectations about this game too. This has happened before, it happens with other projects, and this is exactly what is destroying this project too.

And if the people commenting here don't matter, why are you defending the devs' wrong stance so hard? Let these people talk and complain, after all, they are irrelevant.

Now you're just doing the same as the previous dude & judging these devs on other dev's behaviour.
That's fundamentally flawed.

It doesn't matter if it's happened elsewhere, it only matters if it's happening here & the evidence shows that it's not

 

[Airell]

For Christ's sake, what a toxic thread. I just gave my 2 cents, I don't usually talk about these things because it's pretty pointless, and again, I also had expectations for this game. Do whatever you want, guys.

 

[Conrad-N7]

Now you're just doing the same as the previous dude & judging these devs on other dev's behaviour.
That's fundamentally flawed.

It doesn't matter if it's happened elsewhere, it only matters if it's happening here & the evidence shows that it's not

considering there is a humongous pattern with NSFW games in general, it is a reasonable judgment. Sorry but people been fucked over a lot over the last what... 10 years? By various devs so they have the right complain. I used to support legitimately various projects, but now i'm just part of the Black Pearl's crew... proudly so as i have saved probably 2k+ on failed projects

 

[Ssato243]

Now you're just doing the same as the previous dude & judging these devs on other dev's behaviour.
That's fundamentally flawed.

It doesn't matter if it's happened elsewhere, it only matters if it's happening here & the evidence shows that it's not

i can't say yes or no lets judge after the update

 

[Nevermind_1979]

For Christ's sake, what a toxic thread. I just gave my 2 cents, I don't usually talk about these things because it's pretty pointless, and again, I also had expectations for this game. Do whatever you want, guys.

Just relax, man. As I said, it's three same people who religiously defend the devs. The general opinion is on your side. The game is good, maybe we will see the light of the update in a year or so

 

[Airell]

Just relax, man. As I said, it's three same people who religiously defend the devs. The general opinion is on your side. The game is good, maybe we will see the light of the update in a year or so

I will admit that I was hoping preggo content would be added before the game reached this stage, a real disappointment.

 

[moskyx]

I will admit that I was hoping preggo content would be added before the game reached this stage, a real disappointment.

Pregnancy was always said to be added at the very lasts stages of development.

 

[whichone]

considering there is a humongous pattern with NSFW games in general, it is a reasonable judgment. Sorry but people been fucked over a lot over the last what... 10 years? By various devs so they have the right complain.

No, they do not "have the right to complain" about devs who haven't done it. Only about those who have.
Again, judge these devs on their behaviour, not the behaviour of others.

That level of baseless assumption is closer to paranoia, than it is to being "a reasonable judgement".

 

[Drakan47]

Then they can all scuttle back into their holes for a few months, before it all begins again.

if by "scuttle back into their holes" you mean spend weeks whining about the update being either too short or not focused on the character they wanted (whining which will last right until the "update taking too long, devs are scammers" cries pick up again)

 

[jtc]

Love this game, looking forward to the update (even if I don't really care about the green orc chick, at least it means they can start working on more interesting characters then). Complaints from people who aren't patrons and never will be are always amusing to me.

 

[moskyx]

For everyone interested, here is the Dev's last comment on Discord after a quite polite inquiry about the way they have handled this update cycle (basically, this user asked them why didn't hire more people, or didn't pause pledges, or announced that the update wouldn't be ready in the next, say, 3 months or so):

Hey.

1. I have outlined the reasons for why I prefer not to add members to the team. In summary, if I thought doing so would magically speed things up while making sure the project is still fun for us, I would do it, but in the first place, I don't think things are as simple, and I'm fairly certain even with more team members, I would still have to spend a lot of time coordinating things (or waiting for deliveries); that's part of the problem, making WaL is challenging and that could be very difficult mentally -- the one thing that drives me is that I like making it (I like writing the dialogues, posing them, and trying to make things as fun and sexy as I can). which leads to the second point: if my job becomes more managerial, I don't think I'd like doing it.

The one advantage of having more team members is that they can mitigate the risk of life events slowing down the development, and if I thought events like the ones that happened last year were common occurrences, then I would consider it, but I don't think that's the case.

1. Why did we not pause Patreon even though our work was impacted by real life events? here's the main reason (in addition to what CGNefarious said about talking with patrons -- I don't remember if it was done through a poll or a post where I asked people to comment and respond): pausing the patreon would have effectively given us a permission to pause the development which with everything that was going on then, I believe, would have brought the project to a halt. I remember that since after having the baby and going through two surgeries we knew our work would be impacted, I offered refunds to patrons in a Patreon post, but aside from that, we decided to just work as many hours as we could every day because we didn't want to see this project stop (our dream is to plan the 1.0 version), hoping that with time, the number of hours we could dedicate to work every day would increase (it has, not to the pre-baby levels, but things definitely have improved).

Also, we're self-employed, and if I pause Patreon, eventually one or both of us will have to start looking for work elsewhere, which will make the project go even slower.

1. I don't think it is necessary to specify whether there's going to be a release or not. Since 0.1 I have posted a daily progress tracker, and if that's not a clear indication of whether an update is imminent or not, I don't know what is. Now more specifically about "are you happy with the way you navigated last 18 months of progress?" That's harder to answer. Would I have liked to release the update sooner (for so many reasons)? yes, and so far as I have failed to do that, I'm of course not happy with the way things are. But I'm happy with the work overall for two reasons, one of them I just mentioned above, namely that things are improving (both my health, and the baby's challenges), meaning that I can imagine a future that I look back and think "thank fucking goodness that's over", and second, because I have done every thing I can to work as many hours a day as possible. That means not taking weekends off and working through the night (to maximize the number of hours I can work) for so many months, I don't remember the last time my life was 'normal'. That's me, and I know Chestnut has had a similar experience (she's less active on Discord for a reason: she's very busy with the children on top of her work).

You guys are free to call bullshit but I'd like to remember once again these devs' track record for the last 3 years regarding transparency and the amount of content released.

 

[Nevermind_1979]

For everyone interested, here is the Dev's last comment on Discord after a quite polite inquiry about the way they have handled this update cycle (basically, this user asked them why didn't hire more people, or didn't pause pledges, or announced that the update wouldn't be ready in the next, say, 3 months or so):



You guys are free to call bullshit but I'd like to remember once again these devs' track record for the last 3 years regarding transparency and the amount of content released.

What a nice user who asked that question. I bet he is an awesome guy and has huge genitalia

 

[moskyx]

He wasn't a cunt, that's for sure

 

[St. Nix]

So the art and writing is done. It's only a code, posing, and a little bit tweak in the audio, and then we will enter the reign of the Polishmen.

 

[evilman3]

My prediction - the update will come out this year and abandoned afterwards, while people slowly realize that a year and a half of waiting for two hours of content was not worth it. Such a shame as well, the art is gorgeous and the idea is nice, but I just can't see how such an ambitious project with devs refusing to hire more people

Agreed and it will be because of burnout. If the dev has spent weekends and nights working on this game for so long that he doesn't "remember the last time my life was 'normal'", then it's probably finished after this update because they're gonna wanna take a break.

Or maybe they'll switch to shorter more manageable updates.