What are your thought on use mods in VN games?

demonbra

Newbie
May 5, 2021
95
167
Again I'm not anti-walkthroughs either, of course you should use them when you are stuck or already finished the game once and so on. It's just the first playthrough with them that is hardly a good idea imo.

You basically start the game with the mentality of the second playthrough already, just worrying about making the right choice without even caring about what any other option is mentioning.
I am not charging you with anything.
OP asked us for our opinion on mods, I just wanted to give my own, and develop it a bit.
Maybe I should'nt have quoted you. It's not a personal attack.


But I think it's a real question in gaming in general.

I always hate it when you have to make blind decisions in games, especially when the devs decided of an "optimal" path. I didn't play the Witcher series, but I was told the Devs were way better at making nuanced decisions, were in the end both have bad and good outcomes. That is something VN dev could learn from (but make them a lot less grim of course...).
Some porn Dev understood that, and explain you the consequences of your choices (like banning a character your are not interested in).


It has been ruining game experience for years now, where we can barely play something without knowing half of what is happening. And are constantly teased with the possibility to look for cheats or a WT.


All I wanted to say it that is not just a "I'm afraid of making choices" Vs "I'm a true hardcore gamer and don't need to be hold by the hand" question. Again, I am not attacking anyone, but it's something we often see when someone "dares" to ask for a WT in the comment section.
The problem is complex and leads to important development decisions when creating a game.
 

anne O'nymous

I'm not grumpy, I'm just coded that way.
Modder
Donor
Respected User
Jun 10, 2017
10,398
15,311
When I saw that some people still have problems with those elements in later releases and waited for modders before playing, I decided to add integral "mods" in the game allowing those who don't want to fight to skip combat and those who don't enjoy the strategic elements to (mostly) ignore them.
Isn't it what mods are for ? Or at least what they should do...

To one exception, all my mods are named "Better Experience", because it's what they designed for, to provide a better experience while playing the game. Not that the games were bad without them, but as you said, "different people play [games] for different reasons". I just provide another way to play those games, and like the mods are fully configurable, everyone will then use whatever they want from the mod, while keeping whatever they prefer from the game.
By example, my mod for Super Powered is centered on the redesign of the game interface (a better visual, less annoying notifications, and a total control over which event should be, or not, randomized). Then everything grown around this base, adding this or that asked feature. Of course, they it include some cheats, but they all came through my journey while building the mod ; I needed this cheat to test this or that, and since it's now present, why remove it.

In the end, it's exactly what mods for regular games are ; a part of redesign, and a part of cheat.


This said, I understand why people can complain. Lastly, most mods are just in-game walkthrough, or gallery mods. Some modders have opened a Patreon page and fell the need to produce, in order to keep earning some money. But like they only know how to edit a Ren'Py script (what isn't really modding), and like Ren'Py games on the scene are mostly limited to VN without real gameplay, what other mods can they write ?
But they aren't the only mods that exist, even for Ren'Py games.
 
  • Like
Reactions: demonbra

NLord00

Newbie
Dec 19, 2020
44
15
I think nothing wrong with it because it's some way to make the game easy to play. because some mods give recommend choice. but if you are typical of a natural player to enjoy the original game without any hesitation to make it more exciting just don't use the mod.
 
Jul 16, 2018
238
218
Some porn Dev understood that, and explain you the consequences of your choices (like banning a character your are not interested in).
Yes, that is a perfect example of a developer who puts the player first.

I love it when games give you the option to go with girls A+B+D, but skip girl C.
Or, when developers give choices for routes:
1. Slap her ass
2. Don't slap her ass (this will close the BDSM route)
 
  • Like
Reactions: demonbra

demonbra

Newbie
May 5, 2021
95
167
Yes, that is a perfect example of a developer who puts the player first.

I love it when games give you the option to go with girls A+B+D, but skip girl C.
Or, when developers give choices for routes:
1. Slap her ass
2. Don't slap her ass (this will close the BDSM route)
Agree. It's not like it would be complicated most of the time.

Well, to be honest my example was a bit simple.
But I remember a game where peaking on a girl would lead to an instant Game Over, but were on the other side the 30 first minutes of the game were only about peaking and molesting the girls in their sleep... Yeah... That was so funny of you Dev...
How was I supposed to know it ? You clearly promote it the whole time ! Be consistent.
And it's not like it was a big story decision, where you ask yourself about the consequences, it was just a random moment like "Do you prefer vanilla or strawberry ? Vanilla ? Game Over man ! Lol ! I'm so funny !"
In others in rather obvious, like trying to abuse a character you just meet. Then it's deserved and predictable. But many time it's just so... random.

In other games peaking on a girl will give you points, put peeking on others removes you points... And the game blocks some scenes if you don't have enough... That's just begging for players to cheat / use WT / abuse Save-Load / rage quit. Especially in linear games where you don't have so many opportunities to earn them back.
A House in a Rift does it well. You can loose or earn points constantly depending on your actions, but you can always get them back if you want.
Okay, to to fair, it also gives the impression that your actions don't matter, but it's because they can't program all branching. It's a legitimate technical problem, not a Dev being lazy.


I completely agree with Meaning Less when he says that using a WT is ruining game experience, but many Devs just asked for it, and now it's omnipresent.



It's a little off topic, but I am currently working on a game myself. And this is my biggest problem/question. How much choice do I want to give the player ? How much liberty ? With what consequences ? How much branching ? I don't like this branch, but I don't want to punish players who want that. etc.
Choices without consequences make a game feel hollow. Too many and you will have a monster to develop. Too stupid and your players will facepalm and/or rage-quit.
I don't want my players to feel they need a WT to play my game. If they do, then I would clearly have failed.
 
  • Hey there
Reactions: Aurelius Ambrosius

Meaning Less

Engaged Member
Sep 13, 2016
3,540
7,112
I don't want my players to feel they need a WT to play my game. If they do, then I would clearly have failed.
I'm sure most people that enjoy vns will be able to play most without walkthroughs/cheats unless you make something unnecessarily hard where only a single very specific sequence of choices will take you to the end of the game and everything else fails.
But that's pretty rare to find in games and usually only reserved for very secret paths instead of the main ones.

But as a rule of thumb different people prefer different games, so I'm sure many people will complain either way.
Those that enjoy kinetic novel will download the walkthrough regardless of how good your game is, and those that like to see all branches in the story might complain that their choices had no effect.

So what to do? do what you want to see in your own game, people will complain either way so there is no winning in trying to please everyone. instead do what you find works best and those that enjoy that will show up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 246 and demonbra

demonbra

Newbie
May 5, 2021
95
167
I'm sure most people that enjoy vns will be able to play most without walkthroughs/cheats unless you make something unnecessarily hard where only a single very specific sequence of choices will take you to the end of the game and everything else fails.
But that's pretty rare to find in games and usually only reserved for very secret paths instead of the main ones.

But as a rule of thumb different people prefer different games, so I'm sure many people will complain either way.
Those that enjoy kinetic novel will download the walkthrough regardless of how good your game is, and those that like to see all branches in the story might complain that their choices had no effect.

So what to do? do what you want to see in your own game, people will complain either way so there is no winning in trying to please everyone. instead do what you find works best and those that enjoy that will show up.
Agree at 100%. I just don't what to add in my game what I criticize the others.
But I don't want to spam the thread with my stuff.

Just wanted to say that it's a very important aspect all Dev ask themselves and it heavily impact what a game is like in the end. And if they didn't thought about it... Then they really should have.
 
Last edited:
Jul 16, 2018
238
218
It's a little off topic, but I am currently working on a game myself. And this is my biggest problem/question. How much choice do I want to give the player ? How much liberty ? With what consequences ? How much branching ? I don't like this branch, but I don't want to punish players who want that. etc.
Choices without consequences make a game feel hollow. Too many and you will have a monster to develop. Too stupid and your players will facepalm and/or rage-quit.
I don't want my players to feel they need a WT to play my game. If they do, then I would clearly have failed.
Here are some personal recommendations:

1. Don't use an obtuse hidden point system which makes the player anxious about choices. It makes players want to min-max the game instead of just playing it for fun. Sometimes I want to choose something because it is very funny, but I won't if I know it will lock me out of content.

2. No choices where the player is accidentally locked out of content without them knowing. So, no game over states and no 'you don't have enough points and can never get them anymore in this playthrough' shenanigans.

3. If you make routes, make it clear to the user when there is a branch. (e.g., ... this choice will make you no longer pursue this girl...)

4. Don't make too many branches.
Preferably 2 routes per character : (don't date her, do date her), and at most 3 routes per character (don't date her, date her love, date her corrupt). This invites a second playthrough where it is obvious to the players how they can choose the other routes in the second playthrough.

5. Don't do a sandbox game where a player has to do numerous trial-and-error runs to find out when to go where through pure guessing.

6. If you have something like currency, make it super easy to acquire. Don't make it a grind because that invites players to cheat.

7. Don't make the relationships interdependent. That complicates things needlessly and invites players to cheat. I.e., if you date girl A then you cannot date girl B, but you can date girl C. But, if you date girl B then you can only date girl C if you are on the corrupt route with girl B, etc.

8. Very personal recommendation : Every choice will still lead to all the content, but how they react to your choices is different. E.g., the choice to react angrily or understanding, which makes the other character react to you in kind. But, in the end you have the same content. In the 'angry' situation you make up with the girl <kiss, kiss, kiss scene> and in the 'understanding' situation she is happy you are so kind <same kiss, kiss, kiss scene>
The reason I like this so much is because you can give honest answers to how you feel about the situation without being punished for it.
 
Last edited:

demonbra

Newbie
May 5, 2021
95
167
Here are some personal recommendations:

1. Don't use an obtuse hidden point system which makes the player anxious about choices. It makes players want to min-max the game instead of just playing it for fun. Sometimes I want to choose something because it is very funny, but I won't if I know it will lock my out of content.

2. No choices where the player is accidentally locked out of content without them knowing. So, no game over states and no 'you don't have enough points and can never get them anymore in this playthrough' shenanigans.

3. If you make routes, make it clear to the user when there is a branch. (e.g., ... this choice will make you no longer pursue this girl...)

4. Don't make too many branches.
Preferably 2 routes per character : (don't date her, do date her), and at most 3 routes per character (don't date her, date her love, date her corrupt). This invites a second playthrough where it is obvious to the players how they can choose the other routes in the second playthrough.

5. Don't do a sandbox game where a player has to do numerous trial-and-error runs to find out when to go where through pure guessing.

6. If you have something like currency, make it super easy to acquire. Don't make it a grind because that invites players to cheat.

7. Don't make the relationships interdependent. That complicates things needlessly and invites players to cheat. I.e., if you date girl A then you cannot date girl B, but you can date girl C. But, if you date girl B then you can only date girl C if you are on the corrupt route with girl B, etc.

8. Very personal recommendation : Every choice will still lead to all the content, but how they react to your choices is different. E.g., the choice to react angrily or understanding, which makes the other character react to you in kind. But, in the end you have the same content. In the 'angry' situation you make up with the girl <kiss, kiss, kiss scene> and in the 'understanding' situation she is happy you are so kind <same kiss, kiss, kiss scene>
The reason I like this so much is because you can give honest answers to how you feel about the situation without being punished for it.
Thanks you for your advises. I think we are on the same page on that subject ^^
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aurelius Ambrosius

demonbra

Newbie
May 5, 2021
95
167
Here are some personal recommendations:

1. Don't use an obtuse hidden point system which makes the player anxious about choices. It makes players want to min-max the game instead of just playing it for fun. Sometimes I want to choose something because it is very funny, but I won't if I know it will lock me out of content.

2. No choices where the player is accidentally locked out of content without them knowing. So, no game over states and no 'you don't have enough points and can never get them anymore in this playthrough' shenanigans.

3. If you make routes, make it clear to the user when there is a branch. (e.g., ... this choice will make you no longer pursue this girl...)

4. Don't make too many branches.
Preferably 2 routes per character : (don't date her, do date her), and at most 3 routes per character (don't date her, date her love, date her corrupt). This invites a second playthrough where it is obvious to the players how they can choose the other routes in the second playthrough.

5. Don't do a sandbox game where a player has to do numerous trial-and-error runs to find out when to go where through pure guessing.

6. If you have something like currency, make it super easy to acquire. Don't make it a grind because that invites players to cheat.

7. Don't make the relationships interdependent. That complicates things needlessly and invites players to cheat. I.e., if you date girl A then you cannot date girl B, but you can date girl C. But, if you date girl B then you can only date girl C if you are on the corrupt route with girl B, etc.

8. Very personal recommendation : Every choice will still lead to all the content, but how they react to your choices is different. E.g., the choice to react angrily or understanding, which makes the other character react to you in kind. But, in the end you have the same content. In the 'angry' situation you make up with the girl <kiss, kiss, kiss scene> and in the 'understanding' situation she is happy you are so kind <same kiss, kiss, kiss scene>
The reason I like this so much is because you can give honest answers to how you feel about the situation without being punished for it.
Because you took the time to write all this, I'll develop a bit more.

1-2 : That exactly the problem with Mass Effect 1-3 Karma system. You don't play for fun anymore, you don't choose the action you like/feel is the most logical, you try to maximize your points... Because if you don't you will have a lot of non-optimal decisions imposed to you, and sometimes big ones, -- SPOILERS -- like a main character dying (like Wrex at the end of ME 1. Wow thanks god I optimized my points back then, or I would never touch the series again !).
They abandoned it in Andromeda. But the result in dialogues is... Meh...

3 : Nothing to add

4 : That's how most romance VN work. Probably for a good reason.

5 : The problem with most sandbox with location+time+fluctuating schedules for characters... The old "What the fuck do I do now" syndrome

6 : Maybe not super easy, but not stupidly long. Some games offers the option to increase income to reduce grind for player who aren't looking for that. That's a smart move. And it makes the "Hardcore" gamer feel good too because they play on hard. Haha.

7 : Except if the main focus of the game is the relation between those characters, I agree. It's giving yourself the bullet.

8 : Completely agree. Same tings, different dialogues for example. For small dialogue decision at least.
This is actually how I like to organize my stories : I don't want to force the player, but I like to give him the illusion of a choice. I'll give a concrete example :
You need to meet Chara A for story reasons (otherwise the whole game can't exist).
You are supposed to meet him at a party.
But if the player doesn't want to go there then fine, don't !
But a friend (Chara B) of the player goes there, and meets Chara A.
And then Chara B (the friend) puts Chara A in contact with the player.

You had to make it happen, but still give the player a choice.
And you can add small differences. Like if the player didn't go to the party, then he didn't saw the others getting drunk, which would have changed his vision of them (just a silly example).

If done right it works wonderfully, but it can be very complicated to apply to all situations. And if you abuse the pattern, the player will notice at some point.

Edit : And I actually believe that this is a way to make the players want to replay your game. "Hey, what would have happened if I didn't go to the party ? How would our relation be impact ?". Isn't it more interesting than a "Kaidan or Ashley" choice ?
Edit edit : You respect the player's choice, both are legitimate. Maybe he could have get hooked up at the party. But the player decided by himself to stay home. That's a consequence that he can guess. So yes, maybe some content will be lost, but that's his choice. And maybe, if you are a smart (and lazy) writer, you can make the hook up scene happen later, and reuse the art.

No need for a WT here.
 
Last edited:
  • Hey there
Reactions: Aurelius Ambrosius

Loganfin

Well-Known Member
Dec 2, 2020
1,256
1,498
It really depends on the game, and what the mod adds and changes. In a perfect world, I'd like to play without any mods, were the games all set up the way that I prefer. But that's obviously not reality. The reasons I typically use mods, when I do are:

  • Relationship editor (always if needed)
  • Fixes bugs and errors that are present in the base game
  • Makes hidden items visible if they were basically impossible to find
  • Gives hints if the game didn't include that feature, or improves on the original
  • Adds a gallery if there wasn't one already
  • Allows me to avoid game over/bad endings that aren't clear
  • Makes it possible to progress to every story point that I wish to, in cases where you need X number of points and you need to do absolutely everything right to earn those
  • Changes some dialogue to make it more lude or erotic
  • Alters one time sex scenes to being repeatable events
  • And then sometimes to actually cheat if the game is wonky or it takes the player far too long to progress otherwise
 

Deleted member 229118

Active Member
Oct 3, 2017
799
971
As a general rule:
99% of all visuals novel stories are crap and not worth reading.
80% of all visual novels can be skip to the sex scene without any problem.
The remain 20% require mods to geus whatever troll logic the dev is high on to get the sex scene.

As a general rule when it comes to video games:
Mods exist to make the game better not to fix the game.
If i need to download mods so your game is fun your game is just bad.
Take rimworld.
It mods make it worth playing.
On its own is just bad.

In skyrim i have many mods to make the game more fun but i would still enjoy it without mods*

*Interface mod is a must tho.

Where i still havent modded stellaris despite it having many great mods.
Simply because i am having way too much fun achievement hunting.

I havent downloaded a mod for sims 4 in a long time since the added progression.
Also i try to avoid porn mods because it reduces sims 4 from a life simulator to fuck everything simulator.
It is too easy to get laid in the sims 4.
 

khumak

Engaged Member
Oct 2, 2017
3,629
3,663
Depends on the game. If the game is set up so there's some kind of running score that needs to be nearly perfect for you to "win" and get the best scenes then I use a walk through or cheat mod. If it's set up so I can make mistakes and recover from them and still get the best scenes then I just play. I shouldn't need to take notes while I'm playing to get the best scenes. The game should do that for you and either allow you to recover from mistakes or give enough context that you can play through without mistakes the first time without needing a walk through.

I actually find it a rather large annoyance if I need to keep referring to a walk through. It completely breaks the immersion.
 

SirGoose

New Member
Nov 12, 2021
9
9
I almost always use walthroughs, I have started games only for one character and having to search for her route among all of them gets boring. Also many times developers don't make it clear how to advance the plot or make it incessantly complicated, especially in sandbox games.