What do you hate the most in sandbox games?

[Archronique]

Lask week, I released my game, a "Sandbox" Trainer Game. From what I received, the feedbacks are pretty positive ,even those from players who usually don't like sandbox games so I presume that the "bad feeling" about the sandbox mechanic come mostly from a bad experience in a previous game and not a thing inherent to the genre itself.

I think it could be a good idea to talk about our bad experiences with those kind of games, this will surely help some devs to avoid making mistakes (e.g. : I thought that sufficiently explicit dialogues about the objectives were enough to prevent the player from being lost, I was wrong, so I will add a quest tracking system in the next release).

So I would like to know, what is the thing you really hated in the sandbox games you played? The thing that make you stop or cheat at the second you see it?

 

[riktor]

as you already mention the need for a questlog, absence of any meaningful story, and repeating scenes in order to advance the story would be my big remaining two.

 

[JollyGeorgieM]

The number one crime of sandbox games is emptiness. It's the idea that "you must go here to continue the story" - if that's so, then it's not a sandbox game. It's a linear story where the dev is making me play hide-and-seek for content. It's frustrating, tedious, and totally murders interest in the game. A sandbox game's strength is that the player can choose to go where they want and something will happen; it's true exploration and the excitement comes from "making your own story" by visiting a place on your own time. An overarching story helps, of course, but look at Skyrim for example: if you go to random cave A, there's still something down there (maybe even a whole lot of somethings and a cool little side-story). Now, obviously expecting Skyrim is too much, but if you have 8 available locations and only one or two has something to do at each point in the story, you're doing it wrong.

A great example of sandbox content, imo, is the Deluca Family. There's the main story, which you progress through and takes you directly where you need to go. Then there's the sandbox hunt-for-stuff, which is on the side and totally optional. You can explore at your leisure, and when you do you can engage in conversations when you like. You're compelled to do it all because you love the characters and want to go searching for them, and even then you generally know where the characters will be and it's an interesting surprise when they aren't there.

The other gripe I generally have with sandbox games is they rig the content to a timetable and don't tell anyone about it, so you have to go through every room time after time on the hour every hour to figure out the pattern so you can play the game accordingly. This is subverted by using a walkthrough, but if I have to use a walkthrough to make the game enjoyable then the game has fundamentally failed in my eyes. It sucks pounding your proverbial head against the wall going to 10 different spots repeatedly just to see if some character's schedule has changed. Moreover, it makes the characters feel less alive when they do the same thing every day at the same time every day over and over and over. This timetable problem, coupled with 4,5,6,7, or even 8 empty locales out of the 10 is enough to get me to quit. Why waste the time?

tl;dr: Emptiness and Timetables

Hope this helps. It feels kind of like a rant to me, but the question is asking for "what pisses you off about X" so I assume you were kind of expecting rants. Good luck going forward!

 

[Archronique]

repeating scenes in order to advance the story

Do you talk about repeat the same action or see the same identical scene multiples times in order to progress? If that's the second one, are some micro variations between each scene okay before you reach the next stage ?

Hope this helps. It feels kind of like a rant to me, but the question is asking for "what pisses you off about X" so I assume you were kind of expecting rants. Good luck going forward!

Thanks!
And yes, rants are what I'm looking for. I could have asked "what is a good sandbox game for you" but I think it's more relevant to approach this subject in the other direction, the "what not to do" mindset rather than having an idol to copy.

 

[sdfgjhdfszbg]

You need to establish the difference between side quest and main quest.
Excessive grinding (some grinding is nice, specially when in each short phase something changes)
Poor character development.

 

[Gloot]

To me the most aggravating is the super rare random events. Specially if they are important to progress the game. I understand you want to spicy the game with multiple outcomes to a action, but if you gonna do it at least try to imagine how many times a player may need/will want to repeat this action before stumbling on that. If the action has a value behind it (for example a work action that rewards the player with money) you can sneak more harder to find events because you expect the player to repeat that action a lot. On the other hand if you hide it on an action that has low or no value (for example a voyeur scene spying on someone) you can expect the players to stop trying of achieve anything new after a few attempts.

 

[batman666]

Repeating scenes are what's killing the fun in most cases. I know these games aren't supposed to be Shakespearean plays but c'mon, we need to suspend disbelief in order to get immersed. And the groundhog day routine of doing the same shit for 5 ingame days so some chick will give you a handjob for the next 5 days is just lazy and crap.

Another point is the often wonky navigation through these kinds of games. Especially when combined with the aforementioned repetition, having to click 20 times to earn a +1 for any variable is just bullshit.

 

[ZTex]

So I would like to know, what is the thing you really hated in the sandbox games you played? The thing that make you stop or cheat at the second you see it?

1) Needless Grind. Trainer or not, i'm not doing the same menial task 100 times.
2) No tracking / Guidance. I don't care that it's a sandbox, if there's no log or options for the player then you may as well call it point and click adventure.
3) Fail States. If it's really a sandbox then it should respect all player choices.
4) Not updating your in-game systems. If you have a hint system in game then it better be updated with each update. I don't want to be told read your log only for my log to say "Go to the beach" and have literally nothing happen because that event has already occured.

 

[Sphere42]

I realise fixing this is not a viable option due to the effort needed, but to me the most significant gripe is the lack of internal consistency or logical progress/conclusion. This is common in non-sandbox games as well since almost everything here seems to still be under development but really sticks out with sandbox mechanics due to the pick-and-choose/CYOA nature of the content.

For example if I can grind exhibitionism and stroll around town naked my PC should not be embarrassed at their skirt being lifted by a gust of wind as a random event. If I can buy or marry my way into nobility a filthy peasant should not publicly disrespect or threaten me (let alone get away with rape) unless they explicitly have overwhelming physical force or higher nobles on their side. If I can defeat a freakin' DRAGON one-on-one I should not get mugged/raped in an alley with no chance of fighting back. If there is a cleanliness mechanic (or even the risk of soiling yourself) I expect grime to accumulate as time progresses and various characters to react to that.

The "rules" don't need to match real life, maybe your magical armour stretches to accommodate a pregnant belly or everyone really likes smegma dickpops in the future but the world should be internally consistent, persistent and causally linked where possible. Or given an explicit justification why this is not the case, maybe the simulation resets every day and only you as The One get to keep your memories and the loot in your bag.

The main incentive to seek out cheats would be repetitive grind, if the need to repeat an action has no meaning in the form of a deadline or I have already established a profitable loop to stay fed I don't want to keep doing it a hundred times for each new dress. Quitting tends to be due to sexual content as that is my main reason for playing these games, the actual mechanics can't hold a candle to modded Minecraft or Skyrim. For example your game specifically completely flies by my radar as the preview screenshots are all clothed mundane scenes and the "Genre" tags do not list any sexual content. However since I prefer my sandbox games with a large side of tentacle breeding I have no delusions about being remotely close to your target audience.

 

[anne O'nymous]

As implied before me, the main problem encountered by most of the Sandbox games is that they aren't sandbox games, nor even free roaming ones.

The authors let the player navigate freely between all the possible locations, but only one of them isn't totally empty and totally meaningless. You pass 75% of your playing time going here or there to see a "there's nothing to do here" message, and possibly be sent back to the MC's room, which is even worse.
At the opposite, you can take a game like Heavy Five, by example. You start on a Vanguard that you can freely explore. Two of the locations are empty, but there's still things to do here ; things that will have no influences on the game, but that are important for the comprehension of the story.
And when there's "action" in more than one place at the same time, generally it's just a false feeling that you can choose your own adventure. Generally you quickly discover that you'll need to pass them in a given order if you want to progress on the story.
Yes, there's two characters with who you can interact the Monday morning, but one of them will not care about you until you've reach the step X in the story of the second one. And at this it's the other character that will not care about you until you've progressed with the second one.
The best counter example here is probably Summertime saga. There's time where you're stuck in a quest line because you need to progress in an other one, but if you don't focus on a single quest line, you generally don't feel it.

Finally there's the worse scenario, the, "you'll have to run all over the world to perform a task", case. God, I hate this kind of games. To do a secondary quest as simple as spying on a teacher in the washroom, you'll have to complete a dozen of other secondary quests that will make you move all over the place and take you way too many days.
I like to play my games, but there's a limit. Those games feel more like a bad RPG Maker walk simulator, than a good Ren'py game.

 

[Ramen-]

Without playing your game yet (?), what I hate most is the clicking, you might now say every game involves that and you're right, but as an example, every time I click on a VN type of game I progress the story. In (adult) sandbox games I get from one room where nothing happens to another empty room and so on, some device even split the rooms into smaller sections without anything so you basically have to click a hundred times (slight exaggeration) to get from one conversation to the next, which sucks.

I get some of the advantages that a sandbox game should have but all of them need content to excel, which lets be honest, most adult games only have after a year or never. Which wouldn't be a problem if the games would be released completely, but that doesn't happen. So most games are like GTA, without cars, guns, people, music or missions, just the town with bad graphics to walk around in and three people somewhere you can talk to.

So if I would be allowed to make a suggestion only add new places if you already have content for them, let the player know where stuff is (Person X is there and YZ here etc.).

 

[Avaron1974]

I don't mind sandbox games when they are done like Personal Trainer. You go somewhere and event happens and after that it's option. Hint system tells you who needs what doing to trigger the next scene with 0 grind.

I hate, hate, and despise sandbox games like Foot of the Mountain. It's a pointless click fest through the same old bullshit for days on end until a tiny scene triggers than rinse and repeat.

 

[lawfullame]

In sandbox games, it bothers me when you have to repeat an event 10 times before a certain variable exceeds the required value and the event changes. I understand that it is very difficult to create enough unique content for repeatable events.

But if the game developer is not ready to take on such a challenge, he should rather create a linear visual novel.

If you are doing repeatable events, it is good to change the dialogs at least a little and let the player know that he is making some progress.

 

[riktor]

Do you talk about repeat the same action or see the same identical scene multiples times in order to progress? If that's the second one, are some micro variations between each scene okay before you reach the next stage ?

More the second, (repeating actions is understandable in a trainer particularly) micro variations are better than nothing though I have little patience for even that in a non-trainer. That kind of thing makes it nearly impossible to actually enjoy the story for me.

 

[CulayTL]

Didn't played your game yet..
In general I hate doing same thing over and over again like the morning routine, get in the elevator and press the floor you need to go (Elena's Life).
Or when you need to go to talk with various characters and they are miles away.. meanwhile the mc forgets his thing at home.. go back.. and do circles around the map.. 2019.. iphone X and shitty uber drivers..
Missing quest log or no hints availabale for any type of player.. not tricky ones and easy to understand for any foreigner player who doesn't speak English that well.
Related to my last point.. I'm ok when a quest depends by other quest or any other variabile in game but to be perfect that should be stated in a way or another.. something like "you can't progress because, you need higher corruption [...]".. Hate when I kinda have to guess what to do or search for nothing.

 

[88Michele88]

I hate Male Protagonists in all game with porn, becouse this site is full of male protagnoist. Where I Succubus most of them are Male Portanogist. I hate them becouse don't have rispect of all womans. This site is full of Male Proganists becouse the creatores Hate Female portanogist. I hate also the Kinetic Novale without choise, whitout save the female protagoist. Hate all of kind game where I don't can choise who I can impersonate, as female o futa proganist. I Hate be submissive. I hate all Game with this fucking Game Over if we lose Battle. I hate Bad Endings wher is inculde Game Over. These kinda game I hate all so much with all my Heart. If I wont play with succubus I search of only Female or Futa protganist. I don't wont play with male protagnist becaous them are big too big pervetrs asshols

 

[TCMS]

I hate Male Protagonists in all game with porn, becouse this site is full of male protagnoist. Where I Succubus most of them are Male Portanogist. I hate them becouse don't have rispect of all womans. This site is full of Male Proganists becouse the creatores Hate Female portanogist. I hate also the Kinetic Novale without choise, whitout save the female protagoist. Hate all of kind game where I don't can choise who I can impersonate, as female o futa proganist. I Hate be submissive. I hate all Game with this fucking Game Over if we lose Battle. I hate Bad Endings wher is inculde Game Over. These kinda game I hate all so much with all my Heart. If I wont play with succubus I search of only Female or Futa protganist. I don't wont play with male protagnist becaous them are big too big pervetrs asshols

Mate this topic is specifically about sandbox games not about genres or generic game developing acts.

Side note: I completely agree with anne O'nymous / Sphere42

 

[83wulf]

I also completely agree with anne O’nymous above.

RL has grinding and time management aplenty. Life is simply too short for doing it in your free time as well.
Provided a game actually has a story, there are almost always better ways to tell it. The sandbox is almost always a trick to provide the illusion of unlinearity. It needs to be very well done to work.

Grinding away just to see a couple of dirty pictures is so very last century.
The reward is too small for all that time and effort. If I just want to look at dirty pictures, why not just porn? The internet is fast enough these days to deliver that in an efficient manner.

Relentless repetition, until all of a sudden, something changes, is of course the cornerstone of an enjoyable Teletubbies episode.
In a porn game it is simply annoying.

 

[eosar]

Bethesda has it good with the Fallout and Elder Scrolls series. Large, open maps with a shit-ton of content to go through, hidden or not. Regardless of the main quest and a tutorial start, you can go almost anywhere and do almost anything. Add the modding and you get an amazing time-waster.
Despite this, Skyrim in particular fucked up spectacularly at release with hard-coded quests that bugged the shit out of everything if you didn't follow exact steps to complete them and the trend then continued in Fallout 4 with a radiant quests minimum completion count needed in order to advance the main one, repeatedly. Shit's been patched and patched and patched, but plainly put, it was bad until most kinks were beaten out.

Don't do that. Sandbox means players will move exactly how you don't want or expect them to. Prepare for that. Consider that players will move through late-game locations early and early-game locations late, then fuck about randomly. You'll have players that want to be held by hand as you guide them around and you'll have players that yell out 'Fuck the system!' and do anything but what you tell them to. Both types are dicks.
So if you give freedom of movement, plan while taking into consideration that the freedom part will be heavily abused in ways you can barely think of.

 

[Grumpy Eagle]

First things first. You need opinions of those players, who actually like playing sandbox games. Trying to recreate your game based on players who don't play sandbox games because they don't like sandbox games is stupid.

Sandbox games have some specifics like grinding, looking for a path which is not obvious, visiting locations where is nothing to do etc... if all of it is done in a right way than it can be great game. I'm not talking about repeating everything 100 times... It's about feeling, that you deserve another part of the story. It's about the feeling "Wow, I figured it out! I know how to continue! I really deserve this scene etc..."
That's the biggest advantage of sandbox games. VN almost never has this 'feeling'. If you create sandbox game this is what you want to achieve.

If you want to satisfy everyone your game will be unplayable.
I don't like grinding - OK no grinding.
I don't like empty locations - OK no empty location.
I don't like searching, how to continue the story - OK no searching
etc.
Basically you will end up with VN with linear story and when you end up here, players will start to complaining that the game is too linear and it's actually not a game but visual novel... It's never ending story.

If you want to create sandbox game you have to create sandbox game for players who actually like playing sandbox games.

Biggest problem is that most new sandbox games is about grinding whitch is of course bad.

And what I don't understand at all is argument "Life is simply too short for doing it in your free time." It's not problem of sandbox games. You just have to play different game genre.