when did ntr became so popular?

SinisterPortal

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1) Strange the X account you like seems to love surveys..
and? japanese love surveys yes, it doesn't make them less biased...

>34k
and? it totally changes everything (no). I dunno where I took that 26k from, I also watched some surveys and prolly remembered the figure from there. The exact number is not important, when it's a number of the same order (and it is). Your pedantry here only shows that you are after some kind of 'scoring' in an imaginable 'competition' rather than speaking to the point - and it makes your point weaker.


>there is a reason for surveys...
Surveys show wishful thinking. Most people have distorted view of their own tastes, therefore hard statistics is better as there's less subjectivity.

> Searching for a tag does NOT mean liking it, wanting to download it, 1 person 1 search per month etc.
it shows what people are interested in for whatever reasons.

> As for the X account you linked, you might want to go visit their page and see their posts for yourself... going off an X post with no context could end badly...
either show something interesting you found or cut that bullshit

It's getting tiresome really... I don't even understand what you are trying to prove now. That NTR is not the most popular hentai genre? Well even if you use other data such as those surveys, it is still in the top, #2 or #3 depending on exact source you use, but you won't be able to deny the fact that it is mainstream, not niche.
 

morphnet

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and? japanese love surveys yes, it doesn't make them less biased...
The person you are getting your information from is also getting some of their information from a source you claim is bias and unreliable.

>34k
and? it totally changes everything (no). I dunno where I took that 26k from, I also watched some surveys and prolly remembered the figure from there.
It shows just how much attention you are paying. How you work with information. 2 links with big ass numbers (which you should have read and could've kept open tabs of) and you still mess up the numbers.

The exact number is not important, when it's a number of the same order (and it is). Your pedantry here only shows that you are after some kind of 'scoring' in an imaginable 'competition' rather than speaking to the point - and it makes your point weaker.
You don't get to complain about context that you brought up. You were the one that brought up the scoring and Japan.
I did a post about that in the summer but I'll repeat myself - if you go to DLsite the tags are sorted by popularity among users. And the most popular one is NTR (translated as 'cuckold' by google page translator)
View attachment 5487569
just saying that it's in fact the most popular hentai genre in Japan (you talked about untranslated games), at least according to Dlsite
I'm just countering that absurd point you tried to make. I even tried to give you 2 outs... but you just wouldn't take them.

Your point is absurd because

1) Many people from around the world connect / connected to dlsite
2) Many people from around the world connect / connected to dlsite using a VPN
3) Even more people these days connect to dlsite using a VPN because of the payment processor issues

4) No number that you post will show
a) Only the people in Japan / only Japanese people
b) Only one search per person per data collection
c) Only on site searches and NO HOTLINKING
etc. etc. etc.

You, yourself, while NOT living in Japan, got numbers you claim are only Japanese. o_O

The numbers you showed represent searches from people around the world, some people searching multiple times daily, weekly, monthly. People using hotlinks, etc. etc. etc. For all you know there could be people responsible for 200-300 of those searches each from data collection to data collection.

>there is a reason for surveys...
Surveys show wishful thinking. Most people have distorted view of their own tastes, therefore hard statistics is better as there's less subjectivity.
:ROFLMAO: refer to the above section...

> Searching for a tag does NOT mean liking it, wanting to download it, 1 person 1 search per month etc.
it shows what people are interested in for whatever reasons.
Again, refer to the above section...

> As for the X account you linked, you might want to go visit their page and see their posts for yourself... going off an X post with no context could end badly...
either show something interesting you found or cut that bullshit
I gave you two links and you couldn't even read and quote them correctly, you REALLY need the practice...

It's getting tiresome really... I don't even understand what you are trying to prove now.
That your initial 2 points were wrong. You came in and made 2 off-topic points and still got them wrong.

That NTR is not the most popular hentai genre?
It's a bit surprising that you can't follow points you made but... holy hand grenades and white rabbits... the title is in the url at the top of your screen...

urlntr.png

It's NEVER been about the MOST popular :rolleyes: WHEN did ntr become so popular...

Well even if you use other data such as those surveys, it is still in the top, #2 or #3 depending on exact source you use, but you won't be able to deny the fact that it is mainstream, not niche.
Honestly, I wonder why people like you bother jumping into discussion when you refuse to even read the discussions and then spout random nonsense...

As you can see there was already a substantial fanbase long before.
This shows that in 2017 there was a substantial fanbase across the largest / best known sites already. It also means that those following it and those making games started long before 2017, if by 2017 they already had a large following because they didn't grow that large in just a year or so.
etc. Also that is what on topic looks like...

Seriously, it's not hard to stop and think before you type and you even get a second chance before hitting post reply....
 

Jaike

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Aug 24, 2020
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Draggy isn't the goat, that's timmy. :WeSmart:

Yes...because those that read Lady Chatterley's Lover were brain addled desensitized coomer brains from all that pornography back then right?
Why was Lady Chatterley's Lover so popular and read by so many if the story in NTR is so bad?
Because Lady Chatterley's Lover isn't NTR. Not that Lady Chatterley's Lover is good, but it isn't NTR.

And dunno bout the readers, but "brain addled desensitized coomer brain" is kinda fitting for Lawrence, :WeSmart: that's irrelevant to NTR or NTR fans tho.

Here's a thought I'll toss to people, just throw it around your heads a little, what if the person that doesn't immerse and realises it's an external story to oneself is in fact, in reverse of your statement, the one that is not degenerated? What if the person that immerses is so weak and lacking in self esteem that they must find solace and identification with the attributes and qualities of a fictional person?
Here's a better thought, I think your use of "immerse" for what's usually called "self insert" on this site is a bit unfortunate. Because "immerse" can apply to players who play a game as if they become the main character, not where the main character stands in for them.

If NTR is unrealistic and the characters do not act logically and rationally as in real life, then why is it that the percentage of parental discrepancy can fluctuate so wildly in the studies?(1). From the lowest of 0.8 to the highest of 53? That would yield some interesting averages.

(1) [page3]
Those studies in that table show tests in cases when there's a dispute about who's the father. So they don't say anything how common that shit is outside those relatively few cases. gives an average around 2%, but obviously that differs a lot from country to country and from group to group. A consistent finding is that it's more common in poorer groups. Poor Mellors.

Most of those dispute cases don't follow an NTR plot, of course.

That's inaccurate, MANY, MANY, MANY, netorare games involve rape and or non con, those are two of the standard tropes used.
Exactly, and on , not the definite list or anything, VNs with netorare types B and C, that means with nonconsensual sex, even outnumber VNs with type A, that's supposed to be "consensual", though I prolly define consent a bit more strictly than those weebs do. Hell, even if most NTR VNs or games do have only type A, it show a couple hundred noncon titles, enough to support your "MANY, MANY, MANY, netorare games".

I did a post about that in the summer but I'll repeat myself - if you go to DLsite the tags are sorted by popularity among users. And the most popular one is NTR (translated as 'cuckold' by google page translator)
View attachment 5487569
DLsite is way better known with netorare fans than with the average zonie who isn't into netorare. You almost never hear about that site from most fandoms, but, just an anecdote, every time I had some nonsense from or about that site quoted or linked at me it was from an NTR fan. You're free to look into links to DLsite from different topics on here if that's too anecdotal for you tho. And how do we know gaijin weebs don't disproportionately push the "cuckold" tag higher compared to other tags on DLsite?

Around 25% of games on F95zone have the "Japanese game" tag, but around 30% of "netorare" tagged games have the "Japanese game" tag. That indicates a slightly higher interest in Japanese titles among NTR fans on this site.

And like woody said, "cuckold" isn't the highest in that list, it got cucked by "male reception", "binaural dummy head", and "pregnancy/impregnation".

Not really "much higher", and harem games still win:

Total games during the last 365 days: 7248
Netorare - 753 (10%)
Harem - 1322 (18%)
Total games during the last 180 days: 4699
Netorare - 525 (11%)
Harem - 953 (20%)

For memory, overall, there's 8% of Netorare games, against 11% of harem games. So, yes, Netorare games have seen a small gain of interest, but the proportion of harem games have almost doubled.
And like morphnet pointed out, percentage of games isn't the same as popularity or number of people playing it, and it isn't exactly a clean stand in either. We don't know if netorare fans request games they like more often than fans of other genres, and hell maybe harem fans do the same too?
 
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SinisterPortal

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I will answer only relevant points, and ignore the rest, including the argument over surveys-vs-search statistics. I'm not going to waste time regurgitating all that anymore.


You, yourself, while NOT living in Japan, got numbers you claim are only Japanese. o_O
What if I lived in Japan, what would it change? A person living in Japan would see the same ranking as a person entering with japanese VPN.


And how do we know gaijin weebs don't disproportionately push the "cuckold" tag higher compared to other tags on DLsite?
Fair, we can't know that for sure. I assumed that the vast majority of Dlsite users are Japanese, because I never saw an English review of a game and generally it doesn't seem like non-Japanese presence is significant there. It might be too bold of an assumption, sure. So I checked the actual traffic statistics:
1764624566640.png
so Japanese make 68.7% of all unique devices visiting the site. I'd call that overwhelming majority.

Honestly, I wonder why people like you bother jumping into discussion when you refuse to even read the discussions and then spout random nonsense...
I responded to a particular commentary within the discussion, one that I found interesting for myself to discuss. The OP is prolly a troll with alt account, I don't see a reason sticking too much to their initial bait as they never participated in the discussion since then. I spend my time discussing what's interesting to me. And that is - how people come to embrace NTR and why is it happening in such huge numbers.
 

Evangelion-01

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Fair, we can't know that for sure. I assumed that the vast majority of Dlsite users are Japanese, because I never saw an English review of a game and generally it doesn't seem like non-Japanese presence is significant there. It might be too bold of an assumption, sure. So I checked the actual traffic statistics:
1764624566640.png
1764624566640.png

so Japanese make 68.7% of all unique devices visiting the site. I'd call that overwhelming majority.
Hate to be the one to tell you, but they have a point VPNs allow to fake nationality so this statistic only shows that people either use VPN or are actual people from Japan.
My country is blocked from DLsite, so if I want to visit I have to make my VPN fake my ID as Japanese
 

SinisterPortal

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Hate to be the one to tell you, but they have a point VPNs allow to fake nationality so this statistic only shows that people either use VPN or are actual people from Japan.
My country is blocked from DLsite, so if I want to visit I have to make my VPN fake my ID as Japanese
I don't think VPN users are that big within the unique devices statistics. There are only that many VPN spots in Japan after all, hardly comparable even to a million.
 

Evangelion-01

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I don't think VPN users are that big as per unique devices statistics. There are only that many VPN spots in Japan after all, hardly comparable even to a million.
Maybe they aren't or maybe they are... the point is that this statistic is not clear and noone can actually make that call.
Also I don't think VPN spots are the issue since the VPN only fakes your national ID while being transferred from different points in the whole wide world... but I can't back that up with facts so it's speculations... I mean it's not even clear wether or not DL site has only servers in Japan.
 

SinisterPortal

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Maybe they aren't or maybe they are... the point is that this statistic is not clear and noone can actually make that call.
Also I don't think VPN spots are the issue since the VPN only fakes your national ID while being transferred from different points in the whole wide world... but I can't back that up with facts so it's speculations... I mean it's not even clear wether or not DL site has only servers in Japan.
Fair maybe. Anyway, in the surveys, NTR took the second place for non-japanese and the third place for japanese. Given that we know that overall search statistics show NTR as the most popular tag, someone is not fully sincere in those surveys it seems :devilish:
 

Evangelion-01

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Fair maybe. Anyway, in the surveys, NTR took the second place for non-japanese and the third place for japanese. Given that we know that overall search statistics show NTR as the most popular tag, someone is not fully sincere in those surveys it seems :devilish:
As someone who regulary works with both statistics and surveys let me tell you they are mostly BS and only represent what the creator wants them to represent.
Surveys are easy to manipulate if you take the effort to first study your questionairs and than use social engeneering.
Statistics are a bit harder to manipualte but still easy enough.
they pretend to represents facts but really in most cases they aren't.
The numbers might seem realistic and by my biased opinion they feel like they are but knowing about what most statistics are really about I can't feel any confidence if I am being neutral.
 
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SinisterPortal

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As someone who regulary works with both statistics and surveys let me tell you they are mostly BS and only represent what the creator wants them to represent.
Surveys are easy to manipulate if you take the effort to first study your questionairs and than use social engeneering.
Statistics are a bit harder to manipualte but still easy enough.
they pretend to represents facts but really in most cases they aren't.
The numbers might seem realistic and by my biased opinion they feel like they are but knowing about what most statistics are really about I can't feel any confidence if I am being neutral.
You are right. With the search statistics tho, Dlsite has commercial interest in keeping the most popular tags above all others - they want users to click on those tags when they see them, and the simplest way to achieve that is too put the most popular tags there. So I believe this is the actual representation of genre popularity, either according to sales or clicks. They simply have no reason to put unpopular tags there.
 

morphnet

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I will answer only relevant points, and ignore the rest, including the argument over surveys-vs-search statistics. I'm not going to waste time regurgitating all that anymore.
You can't "regurgitate" what you didn't understand or address in the first place...
and it's no surprise you won't address the FACTS like VPN's, you assigning world wide numbers to a single country or that you didn't follow the discussion from the start AND

reply1.png

Of course you are more than welcome to quote me where I said it was niche, not mainstream. Of course you can't because on this like the rest you are wrong.

What if I lived in Japan, what would it change? A person living in Japan would see the same ranking as a person entering with japanese VPN.
Would a person living in Japan see the same thing as someone living outside of Japan? No.

The whole point of a VPN in this case is to fool the site into letting you in and use the WHOLE site not just the parts allowed to those outside Japan / allowed countries. That also means that EVERY person that uses the search is counted towards Japan or the country they allow and NOT counted towards the numbers you would see outside Japan.

It's NOT rocket science!

So I checked the actual traffic statistics:
:FacePalm: Those numbers INCLUDE traffic through VPN's

so Japanese make 68.7% of all unique devices visiting the site. I'd call that overwhelming majority.
You DON'T know that because if dlsite DOESN'T know which of those are VPN's then you sure don't.

I spend my time discussing what's interesting to me. And that is - how people come to embrace NTR and why is it happening in such huge numbers.
just saying that it's in fact the most popular hentai genre in Japan (you talked about untranslated games), at least according to Dlsite
I haven't seen a "how" or "why" in your exchanges with me, just you making incorrect off-topic assertions. This is the 26K all over again... except this time you are getting what you, yourself wrote wrong...

I don't think VPN users are that big within the unique devices statistics. There are only that many VPN spots in Japan after all, hardly comparable even to a million.
That is NOT even close to how they determine devices used... you are ON the internet, at least google, bing, duckduckgo the information before you post something that shows you don't understand the technical side of things.

Also spots??? and traffic are completely different things...

You also seem to be very out of touch. With the issues caused by payment processors VPN usage has risen drastically.

All this information is freely available online, some even on this site and only a search away... there is no excuse for this....
 

suprisedcrankyface

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You are right. With the search statistics tho, Dlsite has commercial interest in keeping the most popular tags above all others - they want users to click on those tags when they see them, and the simplest way to achieve that is too put the most popular tags there. So I believe this is the actual representation of genre popularity, either according to sales or clicks. They simply have no reason to put unpopular tags there.
Because no one has ever tried to tempts a customer with something other than what they came to buy? Try go to your local supermarket to only buy some bread.

Re the OP, i'd argue NTR isn't that popular in and of itself. NTR is so broad that an argument could be made that any porn is NTR, as you are watching two other people (one you desire) get it on. And if you want to argue no attachment, just look at the loyalty to porn-stars and the mind boggling amount of cash being thrown around onlyfans by 'fans'.

Most NTR games focus on another specific element, from femdom through to hypno-prostitution. Seduced that woman from her husband, NTR. Corrupted your stuck-up hot boss into a bimbo office whore? NTR.

Its something people throw on as a content tag more often than not if the interest sleeps with anyone other than themselves for any reason.

And given that prostitution itself could be considered a form of NTR, it is an stupidly wide brush to paint with when considering that is the reason people were interested, I how many of the 'big tiddy milfs' type games out there would fall into NTR it if their old partner is still around or they are very promiscuous & have more than 1 partner.

Many people wont care if the hot alien is banging all earthlings, if they like the aliens or some other content they will get the game. The NTR in those games is more a warning for those who get triggered by that to stay away, similar to scat etc. Its in here, so beware if its a deal breaker for you.
 

SinisterPortal

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Maybe they aren't or maybe they are... the point is that this statistic is not clear and noone can actually make that call.
Also I don't think VPN spots are the issue since the VPN only fakes your national ID while being transferred from different points in the whole wide world... but I can't back that up with facts so it's speculations... I mean it's not even clear wether or not DL site has only servers in Japan.
BTW, do you always use japanese VPN when visit dlsite? I sometimes forget to switch my vpn to japan, sometimes just too lazy. So my device is counted as outside japan and from inside japan.
 

hoochimama

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That's inaccurate, MANY, MANY, MANY, netorare games involve rape and or non con, those are two of the standard tropes used.
Apples and oranges. You see a lot of new rape and incest game listings on steam lately?
I'm talking about games that are actually subject to western payment processor censorship (most recently catapulted by the "No Mercy" mediatic witch hunt a few months ago) such as those distributed on global/western platforms. While you seem to be referring to the japanese anime porn game market that is becoming increasingly insular or inaccessible precisely because of that censorship.
Right now if you start developing a porn game in the the hopes of getting it published on major platforms like steam you know that themes of incest, rape/violence against women and underage characters have a good chance of not getting approved. Netorare is the most popular taboo that's still safe for games to capitalize on.

The same thing already happened near 20 years ago with the western live action porn industry when the likes of brazzers & co were forced abandon their predominantly coercion/blackmail (rape) themed porn stories. They outright removed sites like pornstarpunishment, sleepcreep etc and the industry standard then quickly switched from blackmail/coercion/faux rape to the next most taboo theme on the erotic totem pole that was still allowed: (fake) incest. That's how "stepbro i'm stuck" fauxcest crap got everywhere.
 
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Evangelion-01

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BTW, do you always use japanese VPN when visit dlsite? I sometimes forget to switch my vpn to japan, sometimes just too lazy. So my device is counted as outside japan and from inside japan.
If I try to open a link to DLsite without a VPN with different nationality I simply get 404 site not found or a blank site... so yes, I am not sure which nations are blocked so I take the simplest road and pretend to be japanese
 
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morphnet

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Apples and oranges. You see a lot of new rape and incest game listings on steam lately?
I'm talking about games that are actually subject to western payment processor censorship (most recently catapulted by the "No Mercy" mediatic witch hunt a few months ago) such as those distributed on global/western platforms. While you seem to be referring to the japanese anime porn game market that is becoming increasingly insular or inaccessible precisely because of that censorship.
I never made reference to west or east, you are making inaccurate assumptions, apparently backed by a lack of information and / or knowledge on the point you raised.

I mentioned tropes because in your post I replied to you made the mistake of saying "unlike rape".
NTR (netorare) is only going to grow in popularity when it comes to porn games because it now sits as the most taboo story theme that isn't targeted by western financial censorship (unlike rape, incest and underage characters).
Many, many, netorare games, western and eastern use rape and non-con in one way or another. Here is a source from this site, you are welcome to go through it and see for yourself.

https://f95zone.to/threads/ntr-netorare-cuckold-resources-discussion-development.2711/

You were talking as a whole, if I just use this site as an example (remembering that many games are not here either because they were not requested / uploaded, translated, have features not allowed or are banned etc.)

https://f95zone.to/sam/latest_alpha/#/cat=games/page=1/tags=258 <- netorare tag

You can also do this yourself, add the below tags one at a time to the exclude list and see how many western games disappear.

Netorare = 1937
Netorare + rape = 549
Netorare + blackmail = 316
Netorare + mind control = 176
Netorare + drugs = 157
Netorare + sexual harassment = 337

If we now exclude all the above, we get 1046. That means almost half the game are gone and I only used rape and non-con, I didn't include others banned by western processors like incest or shota or loli etc.

https://f95zone.to/sam/latest_alpha/#/cat=games/page=1/tags=258/notags=111,339,417,670,2217

Right now if you start developing a porn game in the the hopes of getting it published on major platforms like steam you know that themes of incest, rape/violence against women and underage characters have a good chance of not getting approved. Netorare is the most popular taboo that's still safe for games to capitalize on.
That argument might have work before but not now. You mentioned steam because you know it's the least likely to come back and bite you points wise but you also know that patreon and subscribestar are by far the most used especially because you seem to want to focus on the western side of things now.

and as the above shows, almost half the games here don't comply with patreon, subscribestar OR steams rules...

The same thing already happened near 20 years ago with the western live action porn industry when the likes of brazzers & co were forced abandon their predominantly coercion/blackmail (rape) themed porn stories. They outright removed sites like pornstarpunishment, sleepcreep etc and the industry standard then quickly switched from blackmail/coercion/faux rape to the next most taboo theme on the erotic totem pole that was still allowed: (fake) incest. That's how "stepbro i'm stuck" fauxcest crap got everywhere.
1) "(fake) incest" didn't suddenly appear after a crack down on the others, it was always there.
2) This kind of argument is always amusing,

Oh I like rape, oh look they are taking down rape, oh well now I suddenly like fake incest yay...

With the crack down a few years ago on patreon and the new one, are you suddenly seeing a bunch of people who love incest, suddenly going "oh well now I suddenly like netorare yay"? Of course not. People who disliked / didn't care about netorare and loved incest are not suddenly going to change their preferences... they're just going to try find new ways / places to get incest...

These arguments that imply the majority of people are just going to give up when things are cracked down on / removed and take what's given to them are naive at best.
 
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