VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [Ch. 3 Full] [Oceanlab]

[Cockva]

6 yrs later

Ocean - makes adult games.

Ocean's supporters - enjoy his games, support Ocean, read the dev logs, play other games until Ocean releases the next update.

Neutralists and others - enjoy his games, do not support Ocean, do not read the dev logs, play other games until Ocean releases the next update.

WiaB main thread - six-year anniversary edition of the travesty stand-up show "6 yrs later: the rework."

They are not even half done, so it's hard to enjoy these games at the moment. And it's not a fact that the situation will change in 6 years.

 

[yossa999]

They are not even half done, so it's hard to enjoy these games at the moment. And it's not a fact that the situation will change in 6 years.

It's not even fact that you or me will be alive within next 6 days.
For me, every update of both games is very enjoyable, I'm in no rush to get to the final credits as quickly as possible. And I have a plenty of other things to enjoy between Ocean games' updates, instead of getting upset now about possible issues 6 years down the road.
But don't let me stop you from having your fun, if the endless "We all gonna die before this game is finished" debate is your thing.

 

[Dr Huge Vee]

OCEAN working on Wiab update -





OCEAN working on SG Update -

 

[BobTheDuck]

The sense I'm getting from all of this is that WiaB, which was his original game, has kind of shifted into being more of a side story and prop for the narrative for SG. It seems that one would get more from WiaB if they were coming to it as a fan of SG, whereas the reverse would potentially spoil the narrative for WiaB. It might also indicate, given that some of the characters in SG are the children of the protagonist of WiaB, that the game is going to become a lot more of a kinetic novel and straightforward as opposed to multiple paths offered by SG.

Pre rework WiaB had a definite canon, the choices were mainly to appear like it wasn't a kinetic novel. Essentially even if you prefer Katie, you still have the issues with Leia, simply because that's central to the plot. I can't imagine that would change in any regard. I think the choices will be limited as far as plot goes, but I think in some ways it will be the opposite of SG - Willi has a reputation as a manwhore, and choices will possibly be how manwhorish he is. Based on how the original went, I think any continuity errors can be chalked up to things happening in the time between WiaB and SG, so there is still a lot of wiggle room.

The fact that Ocean is developing them concurrently allows him to avoid spoiling either too much. The natural effect is that SG will have more loaded ramifications of actions, but players of WiaB who follow SG as well will also understan more about the consequences.

I don't think it's going to ruin either, but at least it'll be relatively consistent in approach. Ocean will work hard not to spoil key reveals in either to keep people intruigued. I think WiaB is likely to have the same flow as SG - the core canon is identical, but you can flavour it with either a selfish MC or a nice MC, with different eyecandy as a result. CHoices will also determine how you find out things and in what order, so some choices will reveal more or hide more. I guess WiaB will branch out in the middle of the story, but circumstances will pull the plot to a predefined end. The question is how well Ocean can bring things back to a central point without it feeling forced.

 

[Euron13]

Pre rework WiaB had a definite canon, the choices were mainly to appear like it wasn't a kinetic novel. Essentially even if you prefer Katie, you still have the issues with Leia, simply because that's central to the plot. I can't imagine that would change in any regard. I think the choices will be limited as far as plot goes, but I think in some ways it will be the opposite of SG - Willi has a reputation as a manwhore, and choices will possibly be how manwhorish he is. Based on how the original went, I think any continuity errors can be chalked up to things happening in the time between WiaB and SG, so there is still a lot of wiggle room.

The fact that Ocean is developing them concurrently allows him to avoid spoiling either too much. The natural effect is that SG will have more loaded ramifications of actions, but players of WiaB who follow SG as well will also understan more about the consequences.

I don't think it's going to ruin either, but at least it'll be relatively consistent in approach. Ocean will work hard not to spoil key reveals in either to keep people intruigued. I think WiaB is likely to have the same flow as SG - the core canon is identical, but you can flavour it with either a selfish MC or a nice MC, with different eyecandy as a result. CHoices will also determine how you find out things and in what order, so some choices will reveal more or hide more. I guess WiaB will branch out in the middle of the story, but circumstances will pull the plot to a predefined end. The question is how well Ocean can bring things back to a central point without it feeling forced.

I think that’s kind of a false equivalency. Yes the characters have an established relationship going into the game early on, but that’s not the same thing as it being a completely kinetic experience. And certainly for a long time Ocean was talking about the choices in WIAB having major consequences and an effect on the narrative, how major relationships would play out etc.

If he’s discarding all of that and essentially turning this into a kinetic novel he can use to lore dump SG characters….well, I suppose I understand why he’s less interested in developing it compared to it’s sequel. Perhaps it’ll improve the experience of SG, though it’s lessened WIAB.

 

[Old Man Al]

6 yrs later

Ocean supporters - you know he's now doing a REWORK of S3 of SG so that he can match the story according to his new ideal storyline that he just THOUGHT NOW and therefore he'LL be doing a complete REWORK of both S1 S2.
Good things take time, so it'll take 1 year to do the complete REWORK and for safety reasons add another year for POLISHING.

Neutralists and others - really?

Ocean supporters - yes, absolutely

Neutralists and others - ok, VERY NICE, but what about WiAB?

Ocean supporters - oh come on don't be dumb, it recieves only 1 update in 3 yrs, as it also requires couple of REWORKS and POLISHING from time to time, did you forget?

Neutralists and others - really?

Ocean supporters - yes, absolutely

Neutralists and others - *this type of torcher is unbearable* so why doesn't he do everything in one go and complete the story by now?

Ocean supporters - don't you know? Good things TAKE TIME.

Neutralists and others - YA, now kill me and let me be in peace

Ocean supporters - no, your life deserves a REWORK and POLISH

Neutralists and others - F*** U

Oh my here we go again. And of course the neutralists are with the cryb... others.

Spoiler

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[BobTheDuck]

I think that’s kind of a false equivalency. Yes the characters have an established relationship going into the game early on, but that’s not the same thing as it being a completely kinetic experience. And certainly for a long time Ocean was talking about the choices in WIAB having major consequences and an effect on the narrative, how major relationships would play out etc.

If he’s discarding all of that and essentially turning this into a kinetic novel he can use to lore dump SG characters….well, I suppose I understand why he’s less interested in developing it compared to it’s sequel. Perhaps it’ll improve the experience of SG, though it’s lessened WIAB.

I would suggest it's not false equivalency - point to the released version of WiaB that allows for meaningful choices with consequences. Currently all released version have pretty fixed plot structure. We never got to see any of the ultimate consequences in a relational sense in WiaB, the only real consequential choice we saw was how the prison scene played out. Even then, it had very little impact other than the immediate renders shown. The plot was basically linear, with choices to create a flavour or style of playthrough, the illusion of choice. I firmly believe there will be consequential choices in this new version, but like in SG, there will be a lot of canon forced on the player, because it is a particular kind of story Ocean wishes to explore.

 

[sorco2003]

SG’s already onto season 2? Fuck, he really did leave WIAB in the dust to focus on that one.

Nope. He is working on the full version of Season 1 (for Steam). He just does the final reworks for CHAPTER 2 in that build.

Pre rework WiaB had a definite canon, the choices were mainly to appear like it wasn't a kinetic novel. Essentially even if you prefer Katie, you still have the issues with Leia, simply because that's central to the plot. I can't imagine that would change in any regard. I think the choices will be limited as far as plot goes, but I think in some ways it will be the opposite of SG - Willi has a reputation as a manwhore, and choices will possibly be how manwhorish he is. Based on how the original went, I think any continuity errors can be chalked up to things happening in the time between WiaB and SG, so there is still a lot of wiggle room.

The fact that Ocean is developing them concurrently allows him to avoid spoiling either too much. The natural effect is that SG will have more loaded ramifications of actions, but players of WiaB who follow SG as well will also understan more about the consequences.

I don't think it's going to ruin either, but at least it'll be relatively consistent in approach. Ocean will work hard not to spoil key reveals in either to keep people intruigued. I think WiaB is likely to have the same flow as SG - the core canon is identical, but you can flavour it with either a selfish MC or a nice MC, with different eyecandy as a result. CHoices will also determine how you find out things and in what order, so some choices will reveal more or hide more. I guess WiaB will branch out in the middle of the story, but circumstances will pull the plot to a predefined end. The question is how well Ocean can bring things back to a central point without it feeling forced.

I want to understand this better. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. But, decisions in the old WIAB existed to change your story, as in all AVNs. Whether it is canonical or not depends on whether it is the story common to all routes or not. Pregnancy belonged to a particular route, Katie's war, the prison scene, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. Now, if you're talking about the canon leading up to SG, it didn't matter back then. Those issues were emphasized only when Ocean takes full control of SG (like the appearance of Victoria and Maja's parents... are they still sisters?).
And about the crucial points, we already know them, at least until the trial. What happens in between and how it happens is what changes. As well as the development of characters that in the old WIAB still had no stage presence.

 

[mommysboiii]

I still dont understand the vargue language of the last SG post (no hate) I mean he said polish is done and testers dont need more than a day because the update is straight foward but in the last SG post he talks about upcoming days (which can mean anything) and also soon before chirstmas?? but I tought that the game is already at the testers that wont need longer than a dayso i am confused

 

[Euron13]

I would suggest it's not false equivalency - point to the released version of WiaB that allows for meaningful choices with consequences. Currently all released version have pretty fixed plot structure. We never got to see any of the ultimate consequences in a relational sense in WiaB, the only real consequential choice we saw was how the prison scene played out. Even then, it had very little impact other than the immediate renders shown. The plot was basically linear, with choices to create a flavour or style of playthrough, the illusion of choice. I firmly believe there will be consequential choices in this new version, but like in SG, there will be a lot of canon forced on the player, because it is a particular kind of story Ocean wishes to explore.

What you’re suggesting is that because the previous iteration of the game didn’t progress far enough in its narrative for us to truly appreciate the consequences of our choices that there were no consequences, which isn’t the case. There certainly were enough elements in play (and Oceans own comments) that there was a definite cause and effect to certain actions.

For instance, there was a mechanic that allowed the player to enable the possibility of pregnancy with the love interests, which Ocean warned would have effects on the different relationships the player wished to pursue. Likewise it was something Ocean often said was a critical part of his intention- you couldn’t form a harem, but there would ultimately be different love interests (and occasionally throuples) that the protagonist would end up with based on certain choices.

That’s a far cry from the game essentially becoming a kinetic novel where we only watch and read the narrative unfold without any diverging paths or meaningful choice.

 

[BobTheDuck]

View attachment 3173525

I want to understand this better. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. But, decisions in the old WIAB existed to change your story, as in all AVNs. Whether it is canonical or not depends on whether it is the story common to all routes or not. Pregnancy belonged to a particular route, Katie's war, the prison scene, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. Now, if you're talking about the canon leading up to SG, it didn't matter back then. Those issues were emphasized only when Ocean takes full control of SG (like the appearance of Victoria and Maja's parents... are they still sisters?).
And about the crucial points, we already know them, at least until the trial. What happens in between and how it happens is what changes. As well as the development of characters that in the old WIAB still had no stage presence.

What you’re suggesting is that because the previous iteration of the game didn’t progress far enough in its narrative for us to truly appreciate the consequences of our choices that there were no consequences, which isn’t the case. There certainly were enough elements in play (and Oceans own comments) that there was a definite cause and effect to certain actions.

For instance, there was a mechanic that allowed the player to enable the possibility of pregnancy with the love interests, which Ocean warned would have effects on the different relationships the player wished to pursue. Likewise it was something Ocean often said was a critical part of his intention- you couldn’t form a harem, but there would ultimately be different love interests (and occasionally throuples) that the protagonist would end up with based on certain choices.

That’s a far cry from the game essentially becoming a kinetic novel where we only watch and read the narrative unfold without any diverging paths or meaningful choice.

I'll quote you both together, as it's basically the same reply from me: if the consequences are not yet published, then the choices have no discernable outcome and the experience is kinetic. I don't enjoy a game by looking through the code. Okay, I'll admit, I never explored being an asshole to Katie, so there's something else other than the prison that was not kinetic or cosmetic. I consider cosmetic choices to be choices that don't change the plot in any meaningful way, they exist purely to allow players to either skip lewd scenes for kinks they don't like, characters they don't like or provide an illusion of choice (ie in an RPG you might be offered the choice to save a person or let them fall, but the plot requires them to fall, so your attempt is in vain, you have the roleplay, and maybe one dialgogue in the endgame changes colour to reflect you tried but not enough).

What I mean but the plot basically reconverging is the same as semi non-linear RPGS - they have a main plot threaded through, you make choices on the way, but those choices don't alter the fixed point's basic essence, maybe just flavour the dialogue slightly. It's a way to allow choice and flavour the end game, while still having basically the same antagonist. It's super rare for example to have a game where you can completely side with the antagonist and decide the world isn't worth saving.

My belief is WiaB will follow a similar path - the player will have choices, but there is a canon ending to match SG. Maybe if Leia gets pregnant, she'll always have an abortion in the end game. Or maybe if she doesn't get pregnant, she'll find someone else to be a sperm donor. End result in either case is that if Leia being pregnant is required for a character is SG, it will happen, if Leia pregnant isn't canon, regardless of Willi's choices, she'll make her own. That's the easiest way to get around plot inconsistencies between the two.

From what we know from SG, Willi was pretty active if the the whole team was taking back shots from him, so harem or not, there is expected to be a fair bit of promiscuity.

And as I say, I'm talling about playing the WiaB game(s) in (their) current form, not about the code and plans. Having completely different paths that lead to different outcomes is just not going to happen - ZPR will become a thing, so common ground is required between certain WiaB elements regardless of choice now.

This is just my opinion, Ocean doesn't listen to me at all, so feel free to disagree with me loudly, it's not a hill I really care to die on.

 

[sorco2003]

I'll quote you both together, as it's basically the same reply from me: if the consequences are not yet published, then the choices have no discernable outcome and the experience is kinetic. I don't enjoy a game by looking through the code. Okay, I'll admit, I never explored being an asshole to Katie, so there's something else other than the prison that was not kinetic or cosmetic. I consider cosmetic choices to be choices that don't change the plot in any meaningful way, they exist purely to allow players to either skip lewd scenes for kinks they don't like, characters they don't like or provide an illusion of choice (ie in an RPG you might be offered the choice to save a person or let them fall, but the plot requires them to fall, so your attempt is in vain, you have the roleplay, and maybe one dialgogue in the endgame changes colour to reflect you tried but not enough).

What I mean but the plot basically reconverging is the same as semi non-linear RPGS - they have a main plot threaded through, you make choices on the way, but those choices don't alter the fixed point's basic essence, maybe just flavour the dialogue slightly. It's a way to allow choice and flavour the end game, while still having basically the same antagonist. It's super rare for example to have a game where you can completely side with the antagonist and decide the world isn't worth saving.

My belief is WiaB will follow a similar path - the player will have choices, but there is a canon ending to match SG. Maybe if Leia gets pregnant, she'll always have an abortion in the end game. Or maybe if she doesn't get pregnant, she'll find someone else to be a sperm donor. End result in either case is that if Leia being pregnant is required for a character is SG, it will happen, if Leia pregnant isn't canon, regardless of Willi's choices, she'll make her own. That's the easiest way to get around plot inconsistencies between the two.

From what we know from SG, Willi was pretty active if the the whole team was taking back shots from him, so harem or not, there is expected to be a fair bit of promiscuity.

And as I say, I'm talling about playing the WiaB game(s) in (their) current form, not about the code and plans. Having completely different paths that lead to different outcomes is just not going to happen - ZPR will become a thing, so common ground is required between certain WiaB elements regardless of choice now.

This is just my opinion, Ocean doesn't listen to me at all, so feel free to disagree with me loudly, it's not a hill I really care to die on.

So it's not about the old WIAB, it's about how it connects to SG. On that basis, the old WIAB and the new WIAB are Kinetic novels whose sole purpose is your arrival at SG.
Interesting way of looking at it, clearly I don't agree one bit. But you have a point, it would be admitting that the total rework of WIAB was almost exclusively to turn it into "that other game that connects with SG".

 

[BobTheDuck]

So it's not about the old WIAB, it's about how it connects to SG. On that basis, the old WIAB and the new WIAB are Kinetic novels whose sole purpose is your arrival at SG.
Interesting way of looking at it, clearly I don't agree one bit. But you have a point, it would be admitting that the total rework of WIAB was almost exclusively to turn it into "that other game that connects with SG".

I mean, kinetic means there are moving parts, as opposed to a comic. To some extent, everything is a kinetic novel if the author has an end point for each story. Every RPG I've played follows the logic of a kinetic novel, with the movement being the fetch quests and the romance to 'personalise' the experience.

In other VN's when you get offered a choice 'do you wish to see it?' regards a lewd scene, it's just bad planning. A better writer puts that choice as 'brush them off' or 'make nasty remark'. A great writer puts in the effort to make a path where the LI doesn't look at you like a lost puppy if you brush them off. Regardless of those movements, if the start and end are fixed points you have a tuned string that vibrates at a pitch, there is movement in the middle, but ultimately all paths will converge to the end game. In RPGS, the post game endings show the choices in the most peripheral manner, you still fought the same boss fight. So I anticipate the same logic, give or take.

 

[sorco2003]

I mean, kinetic means there are moving parts, as opposed to a comic. To some extent, everything is a kinetic novel if the author has an end point for each story. Every RPG I've played follows the logic of a kinetic novel, with the movement being the fetch quests and the romance to 'personalise' the experience.

In other VN's when you get offered a choice 'do you wish to see it?' regards a lewd scene, it's just bad planning. A better writer puts that choice as 'brush them off' or 'make nasty remark'. A great writer puts in the effort to make a path where the LI doesn't look at you like a lost puppy if you brush them off. Regardless of those movements, if the start and end are fixed points you have a tuned string that vibrates at a pitch, there is movement in the middle, but ultimately all paths will converge to the end game. In RPGS, the post game endings show the choices in the most peripheral manner, you still fought the same boss fight. So I anticipate the same logic, give or take.

Basically, the same thing that happens in absolutely all AVNs, including SG.

 

[BobTheDuck]

Basically, the same thing that happens in absolutely all AVNs, including SG.

Exactly - so my original point is that the nature of the choices for WiaB are fixed to what moves the plot forward, and I'm pretty confident Ocean will allow plenty of flavour along the way. Original WiaB felt like the choices were almost irrelevant as the plot dragged the player around in weird ways, almost irrespective of choice.

In the rework I think we'll have more reasons to make choices, even if certain outcomes are guaranteeds, such as Ayua and ZPR. And Katie remaining a badass.

 

[sorco2003]

Exactly - so my original point is that the nature of the choices for WiaB are fixed to what moves the plot forward, and I'm pretty confident Ocean will allow plenty of flavour along the way. Original WiaB felt like the choices were almost irrelevant as the plot dragged the player around in weird ways, almost irrespective of choice.

In the rework I think we'll have more reasons to make choices, even if certain outcomes are guaranteeds, such as Ayua and ZPR. And Katie remaining a badass.

This last statement is very contradictory.

 

[Meushi]

I mean, kinetic means there are moving parts, as opposed to a comic.

That's not what kinetic novel means in the VN space though, by misusing the term you've introduced some confusion into the point you're making.

A kinetic novel is a VN with literally no choices:
f95 tag: Kinetic Novel [Used when a visual novel style game presents the player with no choices.]

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: A kinetic novel is a VN that does not present the "player" with any choices at all; they simply read through a single unbranching story.

So a kinetic novel is very much a comic in essence. Neither WIAB or SG are kinetic novels.

 

[murphy88]

Hello, I have not been able to follow the thread lately, has the cause of the delay been explained? the last I heard was that Cap3 was coming out at the end of November or early December....

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

Hello, I have not been able to follow the thread lately, has the cause of the delay been explained? the last I heard was that Cap3 was coming out at the end of November or early December....

There is a dev log just posted a page or two back..

 

[NebulousShooter]

There is a dev log just posted a page or two back..

Still 2 routes of cake's game, but since I was away I was thinking I will fo' sure come back to this thread to a dl link, sorco2003 what do you have to say in your defense?