VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [S1 Ch.4 Fix 1 Steam] [Oceanlab]

[UncleFredo]

Ocean isn't milking. He isn't a bad dev by any means, he is actually pretty good.

But his project management skills are poor. One of the most basic things professionals do, whether they're writers or movie directors or video game developers is to cut things down. That's what drafts are for. You take what you want to do, and transform that into what you can do. While making everything better in the process.

Do either of these games need to be 30 chapters long? I highly doubt it.

The music and cinematics and whatever else are side-issues. The biggest issue is the shear scale of the games. He is currently doing half a chapter every 6-9 months so or. Completing these games, or even getting to the halfway point, is pretty much impossible at this pace unless he plans to do this for literal decades.

I've saw others, mainly in the SG thread, talk about if Ocean gets more money he can hire helpers and get better equipment. The issues I have with this is...

1 - If he has enough money to spend all this money on licensed music, he has enough money to hire helpers. This is poor money management. Spending thousands on music is a bad idea when he has more important things to spend money on.
2 - The pace of updates will eventually cause his support to plateau. Whatever new support he gains with a new update, will slowly go back down over the months to it's pre-update levels or it will not be a big enough increase to really result in significantly more funds.
3 - He already has spent a ton of money on his system(s). I talked about this last year, I don't think his system matters. He'll just do more renders, cinematics, animations etc. That doesn't lead to quicker updates, just bigger updates.


Expanding on #2. This has already happened for this game. The level of support now is the same as it was 1 year ago and only modestly higher than it was 2 years ago. He has lost about 100 patrons over the past 6 months, this pretty much cancels out gains made by SG.

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And for SG. Even after the latest release, he only has around 60 more Patrons than he did in December (going off the late May numbers, as not to use the start of month drop)

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SG and WIAB are pretty much sabotaging each other.

While I generally agree with your various points, they to some extent are not material. Ask yourself what are Ocean's goals? Based on what we witnessed over the last couple of years, I submit that Ocean is seeking to perfect the highest possible proficiency in production and writing that he's capable of. Period. WIAB and SG are vehicles for him to pursue that perfection.

So hiring help doesn't support his goal. As for your second point, his support has proven to be unlinked from his pace of updates. He's lost a few but we'll need to watch the response to his latest update over a longer period to see how things play out. Further I doubt that Ocean cares that much, and is focused on his craft.

As for your third point. Very large exceptional quality updates that drop infrequently can be just as satisfying as small updates dropped frequently. In the end it doesn't matter. His support will wax or wane based on their perception of what he's producing.

I don't disagree with most of what you've written. I just think that from Ocean's perspective it doesn't matter.

 

[lipe2410]

As for your third point. Very large exceptional quality update that drop infrequently can be just as satisfying as small update dropped frequently. In the end it doesn't matter.

The thing is: the current pace of releases of both games (1 completed chapter per year and both of them planned to be 20 chapters long) put the estimated time to complete the games not in years, but in decades. 26 years for the rest of SG and 29 years for the rest of WIAB. And this thing matter, should matter because no one get younger over the time and Ocean still wanna make at least another 3 games in his "Zane-Universe" but will be very hard accomplish that if he take more than a quarter of a century to complete just 1-2 games. Doesn't matter if updates will have 100 or 10k renders, the pace of release need improve not for us but for himself if he really want reach his goals in his lifetime

 

[08Hanbo]

Both WIAB and SG are great, but I personally prefer WIAB.
MC and story of WIAB are more attractive to me. Unfortunately, Ocean seems to be more focus on SG.
When you want to create two games at the same time, I think it is too difficult.

PS: I've only played WIAB reworked instead of the original.

 

[MIkedante]

Everything above said about long development and quality of these games can be defined by one sentence: The perfectionism is main enemy of the progress.

 

[Larry2000]

Yes.
It only happens if you do a combination of treating her bad, making her do it, and making certain decisions that lead to events that can escalate.
(Except you go down the sharing route and its sub-routes. The deeper you go, the more you might get lost.)

As long as there aren't NTR routes with MC's family members, I'm cool with it. Since you talk about how realistic something is, it'd be really weird for all your family members, that love you and are pining for you, to suddenly/eventually turn to another guy/partner. Especially in an incest game. Miru or a side character is definitely a good way of progressing that narrative. In the original game I was given an option for Miru to be a cheating whore every 5 minutes (exaggerated I know). As it's probably clear, I'm not a fan of NTR, but I believe a path like that needs to be built up and having Katie who loves and adores MC (secretly) would be a dumb NTR path. Haven't played in a while, so may have gotten some points wrong.

I hope I don't see any surprise routes for the sisters and mom D:

As usual, you've always done a good job of creating believable characters (except for old Miru :/ ) just the logistics and actual events were poor at times (camping scene which was broken at times). I can't wait to get to play this new version. I want to wait a little more before I dive in! Much LOVE!

 

[slightchance]

As long as there aren't NTR routes with MC's family members, I'm cool with it. Since you talk about how realistic something is, it'd be really weird for all your family members, that love you and are pining for you, to suddenly/eventually turn to another guy/partner.

I mean there's love and respect between family members and then there's the deep bond between two partners in love with each other. Incest between family members is usually not the norm thus NTR wouldn't apply. Unless they're not really related (not sure whether or not that's the case here)
That being said, I see no point in playing a game where the stakes are so low that every character falls head over heels for the player. The characters should have life outside of your own little bubble and sphere of influence and not just wait for the white knight to show up at their doorstep. That makes them look more like actual people I would say. Otherwise it would turn into a kinetic novel where the protagonist can do no wrong and is always the centre of attention (harem).

 

[mommysboiii]

I've said this before but:
I too have complained from time to time about Ocean's development choices. That said, I've come to recognize that we are sharing HIS development process. When he started this VN (which I much prefer over SG), he was utterly inexperienced in the tools and process used to produce a VN. Well, he learned a lot quite quickly, and at the same time for reasons at least somewhat beyond his control picked up the/his second VN when the original developer walked away. That VN proved much more popular that this one, but more to the point Ocean continued to explore tools and processes and to advance his skills both technically and as a writer.

For the record, I'm older than dirt, almost certainly one of the oldest folks in this thread. I have no expectation that either of Ocean's current VNs will be completed in my life time. However, I think that at some point Ocean may decide that he's learned all he can from developing the two VNs in question and will pause them to start his next one. Just maybe, he'll finish that one before I'm dust in the wind.

Patrons don't support a VN/game. They support a person. In this case they find Ocean worthy of support. Sure they may hope for the completion of one or the other of his current VNs, but the reality is they're supporting his development as an artist. No more and no less.

He does produce some truly fucking amazing stuff. So rather than winding each other up about the impossibility of these VNs completing, I suggest you just enjoy the ride.

dont worry borther you are legend if this game really takes 20 or 30 years i will name my MC UncleFredo and will continue your legacy

 

[Efe Can]

is game still alive ?

 

[Larry2000]

I mean there's love and respect between family members and then there's the deep bond between two partners in love with each other. Incest between family members is usually not the norm thus NTR wouldn't apply. Unless they're not really related (not sure whether or not that's the case here)
That being said, I see no point in playing a game where the stakes are so low that every character falls head over heels for the player. The characters should have life outside of your own little bubble and sphere of influence and not just wait for the white knight to show up at their doorstep. That makes them look more like actual people I would say. Otherwise it would turn into a kinetic novel where the protagonist can do no wrong and is always the centre of attention (harem).

What's the point? I'm not saying there shouldn't be any consequences, but the fact that you insinuated, however lightly, that a lack of EN TEE ARGH in a game like this is an absence of interest. That's like saying what's the point of children movies if there isn't any murder. Welp, maybe it's not the genre, maybe the director doesn't want a lot of murder in their rated G/PG movie. I don't know, i'm not a movie director, but I will say that EN TEE ARGH is a consequence, but it's far from the only one. There's probably, i don't know, an infinite amount of things that raise the stakes. Just saying.

As you said though, from my understanding family members in this game, at least from what I saw in the first version, were pretty much head over heels in love with MC. In different ways. Younger sister was secretly in love with him, older/twin? sister had a thing with him in the past and Mom only really responds to him even in her muted/messed up state. I was merely pointing out that EN TEE ARGH it didn't fit the theme in my opinion.

 

[slightchance]

What's the point? I'm not saying there shouldn't be any consequences, but the fact that you insinuated, however lightly, that a lack of EN TEE ARGH in a game like this is an absence of interest.

I say it's difficult to label it as NTR when the love interest is one of the own family members. Katie should be allowed to see someone else and love the MC (like a brother) without having the urge to have sex with the MC and vice versa, especially if you show no interest in her beyond brotherly feelings. If they end up fucking each other and someone else comes along who drives Katie away from the MC then sure, call it NTR if you will.

 

[mommysboiii]

What's the point? I'm not saying there shouldn't be any consequences, but the fact that you insinuated, however lightly, that a lack of EN TEE ARGH in a game like this is an absence of interest. That's like saying what's the point of children movies if there isn't any murder. Welp, maybe it's not the genre, maybe the director doesn't want a lot of murder in their rated G/PG movie. I don't know, i'm not a movie director, but I will say that EN TEE ARGH is a consequence, but it's far from the only one. There's probably, i don't know, an infinite amount of things that raise the stakes. Just saying.

As you said though, from my understanding family members in this game, at least from what I saw in the first version, were pretty much head over heels in love with MC. In different ways. Younger sister was secretly in love with him, older/twin? sister had a thing with him in the past and Mom only really responds to him even in her muted/messed up state. I was merely pointing out that EN TEE ARGH it didn't fit the theme in my opinion.

I think ntr is very important if you want to have a realistic gameworld and a good story. I think as a writer you will 100% run into problems if you decide against it I mean lets look at it completly objective and logical if you decide against it there are a lot of thinks that you cant do lets imagin a college frat party for example what will you do ? all people are women or how will you handel it? if you want to make you gamewolrd more believable and have older cheracters that are married(or boyfriends in generell) you cant do that because maybe someone has a milf fetish and is jealouse what will you do if you have more open minded/slutier women(there can be so much deep story progression if you fall in love with a women like that ) they only act with MC this way and constantly break their own cheracter? You have so much potential with male cheracters friends that will betrey you or friend that will become enemys or enemys/rival which you bond with an become friends you can have game of thones like intrigues and so on... their are so many possiblities and the game world is so much more alive after playing our red string again last week I think the game world feels much more alive than other VN.

I am not talking about ntr as the main story focuse with ridicules plots/ or as a way to punish the player and where the story is evolved around that I talk more about to use ntr as a story opportunity for more realistic cheracters,jealouse,intrigues friendsship and much more use it to make the world feel more alive sadly there are not many (almost zero ) that use it this way and I think thats a wasted opportunity for people that hate it because they get a more believable world where its not the story focuse and people that like it will have a deeper bonding/feelings with the cheracters which leads into better/more meaningful ntr scenes.

 

[Deleted member 4654353]

I think ntr is very important if you want to have a realistic gameworld and a good story.

A character being cucked doesn't sound like a relevant element.

 

[Euron13]

The realism argument doesn’t hold much water to me, because we’re still talking about an MC whom can successfully pursue every woman in his family. A certain suspension of disbelief is required.

 

[Vidal the king of Pervert]

I think ntr is very important if you want to have a realistic gameworld and a good story. I think as a writer you will 100% run into problems if you decide against it I mean lets look at it completly objective and logical if you decide against it there are a lot of thinks that you cant do lets imagin a college frat party for example what will you do ? all people are women or how will you handel it? if you want to make you gamewolrd more believable and have older cheracters that are married(or boyfriends in generell) you cant do that because maybe someone has a milf fetish and is jealouse what will you do if you have more open minded/slutier women(there can be so much deep story progression if you fall in love with a women like that ) they only act with MC this way and constantly break their own cheracter? You have so much potential with male cheracters friends that will betrey you or friend that will become enemys or enemys/rival which you bond with an become friends you can have game of thones like intrigues and so on... their are so many possiblities and the game world is so much more alive after playing our red string again last week I think the game world feels much more alive than other VN.

I am not talking about ntr as the main story focuse with ridicules plots/ or as a way to punish the player and where the story is evolved around that I talk more about to use ntr as a story opportunity for more realistic cheracters,jealouse,intrigues friendsship and much more use it to make the world feel more alive sadly there are not many (almost zero ) that use it this way and I think thats a wasted opportunity for people that hate it because they get a more believable world where its not the story focuse and people that like it will have a deeper bonding/feelings with the cheracters which leads into better/more meaningful ntr scenes.

all I know is I don't want anyone touching the woman i love but me not even another woman

that would kill me

but if I'm not interested in a girl or character in a romantic way

i have no problem with her finding love with someone else

and it may be unrealistic but that would kill me if anybody else touch her

 

[sorco2003]

all I know is I don't want anyone touching the woman i love but me not even another woman

that would kill me

but if I'm not interested in a girl or character in a romantic way

i have no problem with her finding love with someone else

and it may be unrealistic but that would kill me if anybody else touch her

Within the game, does it count as someone touching your interest that there is a route with ntr? even if you don't see it or choose it?
I'm genuinely curious, because I've abandoned games not because of ntr per se, but because certain routes were either too morbid or too stupid...

 

[Vidal the king of Pervert]

Within the game, does it count as someone touching your interest that there is a route with ntr? even if you don't see it or choose it?
I'm genuinely curious, because I've abandoned games not because of ntr per se, but because certain routes were either too morbid or too stupid...

yes different people have a different points of view and that's fine but for me, if I'm with a girl I don't want anyone touching her but me

and another thing if I'm in a romantic relationship with a girl why would she be sexual with other people to Begin with

however, there is one exception if we are talking about a past boyfriend or girlfriend

I mean I'm not one of those guys that care if she's a virgin or not

I do not care if she had past relationships before me

it is in the past and I am her future and that's all that matters

and we love each other now

 

[mommysboiii]

all I know is I don't want anyone touching the woman i love but me not even another woman

that would kill me

but if I'm not interested in a girl or character in a romantic way

i have no problem with her finding love with someone else

and it may be unrealistic but that would kill me if anybody else touch her

This is the best part my perverted brother its like a rollercoaster(relationships feel more meaningful,jealouse depends on the cheracter and so on) but think about this way a creative mind like ocean(so many opputunitys storywise that he would otherwise not have ) could us it to make a more realistic world/better story.

 

[Vidal the king of Pervert]

This is the best part my perverted brother its like a rollercoaster(relationships feel more meaningful,jealouse depends on the cheracter and so on) but think about this way a creative mind like ocean(so many opputunitys storywise that he would otherwise not have ) could us it to make a more realistic world/better story.

excellent point my dear beloved brother


but allow me to make a counter argument

View attachment final_62a3d96d93814900e9798a80_558823.mp4
















you would be okay with someone kissing Bella holding Bella
and Leia

no-one touches the woman I love
no-one

 

[UncleFredo]

all I know is I don't want anyone touching the woman i love but me not even another woman

that would kill me

but if I'm not interested in a girl or character in a romantic way

i have no problem with her finding love with someone else

and it may be unrealistic but that would kill me if anybody else touch her

So Vidal, my brother, what if you loved two women equally, passionately, and without reservation and they loved you and each other in kind. How do you think you'd feel if the three of you were together and sometimes you'd be with one or the other or they'd be together as a twosome?

 

[Manuya]

to people discussing NTR above
warning! spoilers ahead

the premise of the story that i got from chapter 1
first of all Leia is the star of the show imo & the cinematic cutscene before the phone call pretty much illustrates that, she has an obsessive personality & most of her conversation with MC after he arrived home is taking him on a guilt trip about the past during which she said "how dare she takes what's mine" referring to MC when discussing the mysterious incident referring to Monica the police officer that is a part of the investigation which she appears to be an ex-girlfriend of MC's during high school which Leia stole you from her.
it's seems that there will be a power play between MC & Leia and how there will be one without her attempting to drive players who hates NTR crazy by teasing MC with other guys especially after finally coming back home all these years with a girlfriend "was it necessary to bring her" "she should never leave you out of her sight for even a second" which will be more in line with reality than having your typical adult VN with no stakes at all

Helen is very much emotionally connected to MC & i think she's one of the biggest reasons that MC had to leave his home so i think your competition is maybe non existent or minimal to Dylan which they're already facing problems in their relationship & maybe a secret lover

i don't know anything about Leia's younger sister they mentioned her once (forgot her name)

as for Miru your actions i think will set the pace

for people that don't like NTR i think you can disable it at the beginning but for more somewhat realistic believable story you can't expect to have every women in MC's life without consequences & for all of them to be content with it