I've noticed that there are significantly less great/ high quality (I based this mainly on average/amount of ratings) RPGM's then VN's, anyone know any particular reasons for this ? Is developing a good RPGM super difficult etc ? Sometimes it feels like, even though RPGM games have existed for years, that the market for them is still somewhat untapped.
Why are there less quality RPGM games when compared to VN's ?
- Thread starter Jaam
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Guess developers are just lazy meatbags who want to get quick money without really doing anything. In VN you just need to write text and add pictures and music. In RPG Maker game you need to write texts, add pictures and music, test game mechanics, create maps... Well, you need to create full game. And it's really hard.
Just now I'm only writing a script to my own RPG Maker game, and it took me over a year to do it. So until I release my game, it will be years and years. So people don't want to make all the hard work, they just want to milk patrons.
Just now I'm only writing a script to my own RPG Maker game, and it took me over a year to do it. So until I release my game, it will be years and years. So people don't want to make all the hard work, they just want to milk patrons.
I mean, this is highly subjective, because I'd say that there are way more quality RPGM games out there than quality VN's. It's just that alot of those RPG's are japanese, while western devs prefer VN's. I don't really think that's because RPG's are harder to develop, recent versions of RPGMaker are pretty easy to use, imo. I think it's more of a demand issue, because alot of people aren't into the classical j-rpg style games, due to their somewhat grindy nature. That's also why some of the most popular western RPGM games discussed on this site aren't really RPG's, but VN's that just happened to be developed within the RPGM engine, and fan projects have sprung up to transform them into renpy games.
- Sep 4, 2018
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As a consumer I prefer VN. I have limited time and I don't want that time going from point A to point B. I would rather read the story, get the info I need and keep one hand on my cock.
Proper games with gameplay and map to move around and interact is on another level compared to linear vn. The complexity can't even be comparable and that applies to any engine.
It's the complexity. To make a proper RPGM game, it requires a lot of time, experience, money, and dedication. You can't really expect new NLT_Games quality games popping up at the same pace as regular linear vn.
Also, some devs just don't care. Especially from Japan where they don't even bother to remove combat stats from the window in a game without combat.
Remember. RPGM games by default are interactive experience with a much higher threshold. Only a small handful of devs manage to climb over that threshold.
That's why there are so many bad rpgm games out there.
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I should have probably used the the term "accessible" instead of "easy", since the latter makes it sounds like I meant that creating games with RPGM is effortless (it absolutely isn't). You obviously have to put plenty of effort into it, to properly learn the functions and familiarize yourself with how the code behind it works, but at the end of day the engine was created so even casuals could create an RPG, so the learning curve is actually manageable, even for hobbyists. I'd argue that the true obstacle to create a truly great RPG is the asset situation, since you will need custom tilesets and art if you want your RPG to feel special.
So yeah, I absolutely agree with you that there's alot of RPG shovelware on dlsite and dmm, but that's not really due to RPGM being hard to use, it's more due to a lack of effort by the devs. Towns that are absolutely liveless, where you can barely even interact with NPCs or buildings, a barren overworld, a lack of meaningful dialogues, no custom assets to be found, those are all signs of lazyness and a cash-in mentality.
- Jun 24, 2018
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Dude, no offense but you sound like one of those "people don't know how to do things right so I'm gonna make a game to show them how it's done" devs and when they finally release their games it's so bad that it isn't even worthy leaving a comment. Again, no offense, but generalizing people who does VNs as people who "want to get quick money without really doing anything" and "just want to milk patrons" won't get you any fans, quite the opposite.
Back to the topic, I think it's also a thing of "quality in quantity" (or however it's named in english). What's good or bad it's relative to the player but I think we can agree that a "good game" will be "good" no matter the engine, so if we have 97 new VNs and just 3 RPGM games in a week, it's more likely to find one "good" game between 97 than 3.
I think you have the misconception that RPGM can only produce generic top-down games with chibi characters and 4 dimension controls and square map making with main gameplay only walking around and activating events. You can also make games like this.
Or
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And here is a thing. Yes. Anyone can pick RPGM and start making games. But learning all editor functionalities is just a first tiny step.
For a good basic game for renpy all you need is good graphics/art and above-average writing skills and it'll be a passable good game because it checks all the boxes for renpy type game (at least basic) where RPGM adds additional hurdles like map-making, other customization, etc. That's why it's so much more obvious with RPGM when the game is made poorly. You have to check many more boxes before the game becomes passable.
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I'm fully aware that you can create more than just classic j-rpg style games with RPGM, but I don't see how that relates to my argument that the program is accessible if you want to create a good RPG.
RPGM is highly customizable, if you get the right plug-ins or even get into the code yourself, absolutely (So is renpy, in theory, since you can do alot more with it than just a simple VN). However, for a solid standard j-rpg experience, you just don't need to get that deep into the rabbit hole (like, the only game from your examples that probably falls under that category is the second one, and the most unique thing about it is the real-time combat, which isn't super complicated to implement).
Again, I'm not saying that you'll be putting out quality content in a month after picking up RPGM, what I'm saying is that the engine is relatively accessible and you should be able to get to know how it functions with some effort, given that you don't have a severe learning disability. What you do with that knowledge is an entirely different story.
You're just not getting my point.
The question is why there are so many bad rpgm games compared to renpy.
Read again my post above especially the last paragraph.
It's simple enough. If the presumption of Renpy would be making an RPG game, you'd be seeing more bad Renpy games because additional dev'ing adding combat/maps/walking/balancing/stats/interaction with the world, etc. etc. etc. is much harder than just show text and picture. The threshold for a good game would be much higher resulting in lots of failures or "bad" games that do not meet the acceptable expectations from this type of games.
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- Jun 24, 2020
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Making a great RPG game is not easy...there's much more gameplay involved compared to typical VNs. I'm a fan of traditional RPGs but I don't even bother trying out most RPGM games these days. The reason is because unfortunately most devs just use RPGM as a platform to create fetch quests instead of actual meaningful gameplay, and like MickeyDamen said, I simply don't have the time or patience to press the walk button for hours just to trigger the next event.
And I disagree with the notion that there are noticeable more bad RPGM games compared to Renpy games out there. I've played my fair share of both types of games and would say that in both cases the mediocre tend to dwarf the truly outstanding games, but there are more outstanding RPG's than VN's. But in the end of the day, that's purely subjective, like I said in my original post.
Your main argument is that RPG's are harder to develop than a basic Renpy VN because of the additional mechanics involved and I don't disagree with basic notion that the mechanics are more complex, they are. But it isn't really hard to get a hang of RPGM scripting, even if it's more complex than basic VN scripting, that was the whole point of the original quote of me that started this argument.
Besides, here comes the scolding hot take: Once you've completely familiarized yourself with the RPGM engine, it might in some cases actually be easier to create a good game with it than with Renpy. Why? Well, a basic VN pretty much lives and dies by artwork and writing. If one of them or, god forbid, both are lacking, you're probably fucked as a dev.
An RPGM game on the other hand can have the most generic "hero saves princess" scenario, with fantasy writing for dummies dialogues, and still be pretty enjoyable, as long as the gameplay is good.
So while it's true that an RPG can easier fuck up when it comes to scripting and the dev not properly implementing mechanics, a VN can easier become unplayable (alteast for me) when it comes to the creative writing and artwork (of course, lets not kid ourselves, the games we're talking about here also have alot riding on the quality of the porn).
Look, maybe it's just my bias: While I like a good VN, I just prefer the medium of RPG's, and that's why I probably give devs of the latter more slack if they create something that you yourself wouldn't call good. So that's why I don't agree with the idea of there being generally more bad RPG's than VN's. It is what it is.
What are some RPG's one should definitely play? I've only played a little bit of Ruins Seeker. Didn't know it was an adult game. Had the steam version without the patch. Played with the patch and sexy times right away. I'm not really into VN's, then again I think it's just a matter of playing what's recommended. By the way, the RPG Avaria: Chains of Lust is finally out on Steam after short delay.
First thing. If you actually think that saying "no offense" right before offensive post somehow makes it better, try to use this trick in real life, speaking with someone who can physically harm you. You'll see the truth about that thing.
Yes, I am quite offended. Like any other normal being would be.
Second, please re-read my post. You misunderstood it completely. Why in the world you decided that I was talking bad about VN devs? Are you one of them and was triggered or what?
I'll explain in simpler words since, as you said, you don't know English well (no offense dude! Cause I'm also very good at enterpriting other's words!). I was answering at topicstarter's answer "Why are there less quality RPGM games when compared to VN's?". And, in my opinion, that's because lazy meatbags who develop RPGM games want more money by doing less work. They don't study program, they don't write good stories... And not a single word about VNs, might I say. Do you understand me now? And once again, absolutely no offense!
- Mar 28, 2017
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Oof this thread is in a heated spot, I just came to leave my own little blurb here since I was about to create my own thread on something and saw this.
Personally I don't see the appeal of VN's, I've bought VN's for Steins;Gate and I just can't get into them well enough to actually enjoy the experience. I'm definitely not adverse to reading since I annually pick up and read a lot of fantasy novels. I reread The Wheel of Time and LotR series constantly!
I even read random blurbs of fanfic's or smut that I come across just for curiosity, but for the life of me it feels like a chore to go through any VN that doesn't have something for me to do other than click through dialogue. Meanwhile I can sit and play a bad RPGmaker game with all of its grinding and still feel better about it. Ever play Cursed Armor on Hard? Don't do it, you'll be playing for a week trying to level you and your companions to beat the game.
That doesn't describe the quality of VN's in general though, I'm sure the people who like them can describe the good and bad of them objectively. But I really wish I could blacklist it from my sight since I just do not enjoy any of them.
Personally I don't see the appeal of VN's, I've bought VN's for Steins;Gate and I just can't get into them well enough to actually enjoy the experience. I'm definitely not adverse to reading since I annually pick up and read a lot of fantasy novels. I reread The Wheel of Time and LotR series constantly!
I even read random blurbs of fanfic's or smut that I come across just for curiosity, but for the life of me it feels like a chore to go through any VN that doesn't have something for me to do other than click through dialogue. Meanwhile I can sit and play a bad RPGmaker game with all of its grinding and still feel better about it. Ever play Cursed Armor on Hard? Don't do it, you'll be playing for a week trying to level you and your companions to beat the game.
That doesn't describe the quality of VN's in general though, I'm sure the people who like them can describe the good and bad of them objectively. But I really wish I could blacklist it from my sight since I just do not enjoy any of them.
- Mar 28, 2017
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VN's are CYOA books on steroids. Yet as you guys can see from my signature, I have no problem with CYOA games.
It immensely confuses me.
It immensely confuses me.
The problem is with games like this.
As I work with RPGM myself, I know how lazy this is. And it's the majority of games, like ~90%+ RPGM if you count all .dl site copy>paste trash. I love RPGM games and it's beyond frustrating to see how little care devs put into these games.
The game engine is easily accessible but doesn't mean you don't have even try. And yes, they don't even try with games that I mentioned in example which all look the same.
It's equivalent to this calling an art.
Like Jesus. Take a week to make your game so much more appealing at least like custom tiles which all it takes ~5-20min to research and chooses from many packs available at a price of $5. Thrown in some plugins, remove crap like battle stats and inventory if you don't use them. Is it hard do a google search "no battle GUI rpgm"? 1 week and your game will look so much more appealing and higher quality. And the best thing you don't even have to pay. People make stuff for free for you to customize, it's like 10k-100k+ value asset library is available for free. Don't you want to look different from other games? To show players that you care about the game? Depressing...
No wonder people turning away from a good game making software for amateurs that RPGM is, just to disassociate themselves from "laziness" stigma.
As I work with RPGM myself, I know how lazy this is. And it's the majority of games, like ~90%+ RPGM if you count all .dl site copy>paste trash. I love RPGM games and it's beyond frustrating to see how little care devs put into these games.
The game engine is easily accessible but doesn't mean you don't have even try. And yes, they don't even try with games that I mentioned in example which all look the same.
It's equivalent to this calling an art.
Like Jesus. Take a week to make your game so much more appealing at least like custom tiles which all it takes ~5-20min to research and chooses from many packs available at a price of $5. Thrown in some plugins, remove crap like battle stats and inventory if you don't use them. Is it hard do a google search "no battle GUI rpgm"? 1 week and your game will look so much more appealing and higher quality. And the best thing you don't even have to pay. People make stuff for free for you to customize, it's like 10k-100k+ value asset library is available for free. Don't you want to look different from other games? To show players that you care about the game? Depressing...
No wonder people turning away from a good game making software for amateurs that RPGM is, just to disassociate themselves from "laziness" stigma.
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- Sep 20, 2017
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I have also been working with RPG Maker myself since the 2k3 was released. So for several years now and I have to realize that there are quite a lot of games that don't have a "passion"...
The simplest remedy against this is to simply ignore such games completely and give the creators no chance at all...
The simplest remedy against this is to simply ignore such games completely and give the creators no chance at all...
Interesting. I would never have known that RPGMaker could produce visuals like the first image. I have never seen an RPGMaker title with graphics even remotely comparable to that and I would actually consider playing something like that. The next one you linked is more along the lines of what I expect when I see an RPGMaker game and it feels like I'm playing Pacman. Graphics aren't everything but when it feels like I'm playing something from 40 years ago the gameplay would have to be amazing to get over the bad visuals.
VNs tend not to be set up as some kind of open world RPG. That's not the goal for them. But the visuals they do have are usually pretty good. If the story is also good then you have yourself a good VN. For RPGMaker games, usually the graphics are terrible so my first impression is always bad. The gameplay could theoretically make up for it but usually doesn't.
Don't get me wrong, the ease of use for the engine itself is a good thing. That's the big thing that RenPy has going for it as well for VNs. I just haven't seen any examples of a good finished product based on RPGMaker. I think the closest one I've found is Manilla Shaw but even for that one the parts of the game where you're walking around on the map are the parts I don't like about it. When there's a fight or a sex scene or something then it's actually a relatively fun game. It wouldn't surprise me if there are some good ones out there I've missed since I actively avoid RPGMaker unless I see something interesting about the game that makes me want to try it.
It's not packman, it's anime-estique style.
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+graphics
And you've got something similar to gif #1