VN Ren'Py Wild Cats [v0.3] [LopaPhi]

[SaSteiner]

If I remember correctly, Lexi and Fiona had sports rivalry, maybe Lexi will be motivated to join after we recruit Fiona

Maybe playing alongside Fiona will rekindle her fun for the sport.

 

[Gab1]

Well of course, but it doesn't help alleviate the feeling of just being dismissive of what someone wants. I mean she was even signed up by someone else (atleast I think that was her, unless my memory is failing me).
So not only did she not sign up for it, she's also just not interested at all because she wants to focus on something else, and the game will simply force this no matter what. Even if you put it in the most easily digestible wrapping, that's still her having to dismiss what she wants to do with her life right now in order to play for a team she didn't sign up for.

It's just kinda shit no matter how you look at it and no matter the initial circumstances.
I've had to drop shit in my life due to extenuating circumstances and move on to doing something else that I wanted, it ain't great, but I would be pretty pissed if someone then showed up to invalidate my decision and go "yeah nah get back there", and that's a much milder situation than hers given that she apparently dropped it out of her own choice.

i think you are seeing just the surface, first Lexi havent said that she hates volleyball, in fact when you discover that she isnt a crazy girl like everybody thought she was, she still show passion to it, second she isnt partying because thats her call, she is partying because she decide that she has to have fun, and party, alcohol and sex are fun to her.
but if Mc show her that Volleyball is fun then she will do it, i want to know why volleyball isnt fun for her anymore, and i dont really care if she gets in or not, i hope we have her always there even if she doesnt get into the team now.

 

[Wheremrmz]

View attachment 5330193
Damn, those nipples look so tasty

Bro, I can taste that chocolate flavor — ah, Dessie.

 

[Ciaran8023]

i think you are seeing just the surface, first Lexi havent said that she hates volleyball, in fact when you discover that she isnt a crazy girl like everybody thought she was, she still show passion to it, second she isnt partying because thats her call, she is partying because she decide that she has to have fun, and party, alcohol and sex are fun to her.
but if Mc show her that Volleyball is fun then she will do it, i want to know why volleyball isnt fun for her anymore, and i dont really care if she gets in or not, i hope we have her always there even if she doesnt get into the team now.

I mean, I never once wrote that she hates volleyball, so if you could just not put words in my mouth, that'd be great.
As you pointed out, she wants to have fun and party likely because she's missed out on it thanks to how rigorous and time-consuming sports can be and even moreso on a collegiate level.
I mean shit, most college athletes spend something like 40 - 50 hours per week on average for training. Combine that with schoolwork and it's pretty much the exact opposite of the situation Lexi wants to be in right now.

Regardless, nothing of what you pointed out actually makes the coming situation any better. I personally hope that she doesn't get in and that she's more of a sidecharacter, if anything to just respect her choice of what to do with her life, but I think we all know that isn't happening.

 

[Meiri]

I mean, I never once wrote that she hates volleyball, so if you could just not put words in my mouth, that'd be great.
As you pointed out, she wants to have fun and party likely because she's missed out on it thanks to how rigorous and time-consuming sports can be and even moreso on a collegiate level.
I mean shit, most college athletes spend something like 40 - 50 hours per week on average for training. Combine that with schoolwork and it's pretty much the exact opposite of the situation Lexi wants to be in right now.

Regardless, nothing of what you pointed out actually makes the coming situation any better. I personally hope that she doesn't get in and that she's more of a sidecharacter, if anything to just respect her choice of what to do with her life, but I think we all know that isn't happening.

What you describe is not what her story is about, and we have known she's a main character since the first chapter, it makes no sense to hope she's a side character at this point you will only end disappointed.

 

[Ciaran8023]

What you describe is not what her story is about, and we have known she's a main character since the first chapter, it makes no sense to hope she's a side character at this point you will only end disappointed.

Nah I'm well aware that the game will just force it and invalidate her choice of what to do with her life, it's literally what I wrote if you just scroll up to my previous posts. It's why it feels very shitty to begin with.

 

[Meiri]

Nah I'm well aware that the game will just force it and invalidate her choice of what to do with her life, it's literally what I wrote if you just scroll up to my previous posts. It's why it feels very shitty to begin with.

I think it's a bit too early to just say it will invalidate her previous choice considering we don't even know the full context of what happened in the past for her to make that choice, for all we know she may actually love volleyball but could've had an overbearing coach in the past for example. Until we get to see her story it's hard to say, but one thing I am positive is that when she ends up joining the team it will be because she's made the choice herself.

 

[Ciaran8023]

I think it's a bit too early to just say it will invalidate her previous choice considering we don't even know the full context of what happened in the past for her to make that choice, for all we know she may actually love volleyball but could've had an overbearing coach in the past for example. Until we get to see her story it's hard to say, but one thing I am positive is that when she ends up joining the team it will be because she's made the choice herself.

Well, it doesn't actually matter what happened to cause it, what matters is her current choice to enjoy life in the way she wants it.
Even if she ends up 'making the choice herself', it wouldn't happen without the MC's direct involvement. The MC right now, also only knows that she wanted to have fun and enjoy life instead of spending it on volleyball, and yet he persists in his idea that he has to get her to play, contrary to what she wants.

You can wax poetic about hypotheticals but if you just look at how the situation is presented right now, with the MC having the current information available, it just feels extremely shitty on his part.
It's not like she's not enjoying her life as it currently is, she clearly is having fun and isn't even considering going back to playing volleyball again, which just further makes it feel like her inevitably joining the team will feel hamfisted as fuck regardless of what reason the dev might cook up, because actions have to feel congruent with previously established information.

What I mean by this is that if Lexi had shown some sort of hesitation or not being completely satisfied with how her life was going, it would be much easier from a narrative standpoint to later rope her into playing again.. but the game just doesn't even hint at something like that at all. With her being, atleast shown to be, completely satisfied with having fun and fucking around; her joining the team will inevitably feel incongruous with her previous behaviour.

It just feels like the typical thing of dev overestimating their ability to narratively make something make sense when establishing a baseline that is vastly different from what the outcome will be, if that makes sense.

 

[RegNiss666]

Well, it doesn't actually matter what happened to cause it, what matters is her current choice to enjoy life in the way she wants it.
Even if she ends up 'making the choice herself', it wouldn't happen without the MC's direct involvement. The MC right now, also only knows that she wanted to have fun and enjoy life instead of spending it on volleyball, and yet he persists in his idea that he has to get her to play, contrary to what she wants.

You can wax poetic about hypotheticals but if you just look at how the situation is presented right now, with the MC having the current information available, it just feels extremely shitty on his part.
It's not like she's not enjoying her life as it currently is, she clearly is having fun and isn't even considering going back to playing volleyball again, which just further makes it feel like her inevitably joining the team will feel hamfisted as fuck regardless of what reason the dev might cook up, because actions have to feel congruent with previously established information.

What I mean by this is that if Lexi had shown some sort of hesitation or not being completely satisfied with how her life was going, it would be much easier from a narrative standpoint to later rope her into playing again.. but the game just doesn't even hint at something like that at all. With her being, atleast shown to be, completely satisfied with having fun and fucking around; her joining the team will inevitably feel incongruous with her previous behaviour.

It just feels like the typical thing of dev overestimating their ability to narratively make something make sense when establishing a baseline that is vastly different from what the outcome will be, if that makes sense.

The thing is, she outright tells the MC, thatif he can convince her that volleyball is"the most fun here", she would join the team in an instant.That said, I don't think it wouldn't have to be something convoluted, or feel hamfisted if she came back, which I don't think would be too difficult for LopaPhi, considering how well he handled both Saki and Zoe's arcs so far.

 

[Ciaran8023]

The thing is, she outright tells the MC, thatif he can convince her that volleyball is"the most fun here", she would join the team in an instant.That said, I don't think it wouldn't have to be something convoluted, or feel hamfisted if she came back, which I don't think would be too difficult for LopaPhi, considering how well he handled both Saki and Zoe's arcs so far.

I mean realistically, if someone tells you to convince them of something, it's generally a 'no thanks' wrapped in a prettier wrapper as the vast majority of individuals have a set outcome in mind when they say that.
She even outright says that she has no plans of volleyball at all in college. Her saying 'convince me' can also just be her trying to get that dick. Point of the matter is that at no point would I take that 'convince me' at face value, in my 35 years of living, the amount of people who I've come across that actually maintained a neutral position and genuinely wanted convincing can be counted on a single hand, and I spent a fair amount of time working with people in a lot of my working life.
The smoking gun is also her behaviour around it up until that point and even what she explicitely says in that same scene. She's straight up never even considered it, because she isn't interested in spending all of her waking hours doing training.

Also, Saki and Zoe are vastly different situations.
Lexi is about actively challenging her autonomy and her choice that she willfully made and still stand by, Saki was thrust into a situation that she didn't want to be in, and chose the only option she thought was available for her where the MC managed to be a way out, not because she wanted to be in that situation. Zoe straight up wanted to work with the MC, she was just socially inept and it ended in drama.
Neither of which can be compared to Lexi from a narrative standpoint since they all work with vastly different tropes behind them.

I have a few friends that do a lot of writing, specifically novel work, and all of them actively avoid congruency issues like the plague because it's the most difficult thing to try to write around without it feeling like an insult to the readers intelligence or being dismissive of a character.
Autonomy, when in relation to an actual wholesome story, is also a cardinal sin to interfere with when it comes to character work. You generally only fuck around with autonomy if you want someone in the story to come off as the biggest asshole imaginable.
Lexi, right now, has a combination of both of these things and trying to resolve them in a matter that people will like will be close to impossible.

 

[polxan]

I mean realistically, if someone tells you to convince them of something, it's generally a 'no thanks' wrapped in a prettier wrapper as the vast majority of individuals have a set outcome in mind when they say that.
She even outright says that she has no plans of volleyball at all in college. Her saying 'convince me' can also just be her trying to get that dick. Point of the matter is that at no point would I take that 'convince me' at face value, in my 35 years of living, the amount of people who I've come across that actually maintained a neutral position and genuinely wanted convincing can be counted on a single hand, and I spent a fair amount of time working with people in a lot of my working life.
The smoking gun is also her behaviour around it up until that point and even what she explicitely says in that same scene. She's straight up never even considered it, because she isn't interested in spending all of her waking hours doing training.

Also, Saki and Zoe are vastly different situations.
Lexi is about actively challenging her autonomy and her choice that she willfully made and still stand by, Saki was thrust into a situation that she didn't want to be in, and chose the only option she thought was available for her where the MC managed to be a way out, not because she wanted to be in that situation. Zoe straight up wanted to work with the MC, she was just socially inept and it ended in drama.
Neither of which can be compared to Lexi from a narrative standpoint since they all work with vastly different tropes behind them.

I have a few friends that do a lot of writing, specifically novel work, and all of them actively avoid congruency issues like the plague because it's the most difficult thing to try to write around without it feeling like an insult to the readers intelligence or being dismissive of a character.
Autonomy, when in relation to an actual wholesome story, is also a cardinal sin to interfere with when it comes to character work. You generally only fuck around with autonomy if you want someone in the story to come off as the biggest asshole imaginable.
Lexi, right now, has a combination of both of these things and trying to resolve them in a matter that people will like will be close to impossible.

Damn, you're a real fun one at parties aren't you?

 

[Ciaran8023]

Damn, you're a real fun one at parties aren't you?

Depends, do you go to parties to discuss narrative faux pas?
If you do, then the answer to your question will probably shock you. Subscribe to my newsletter for more, only $69.99.

Real talk though, you're on a pirate porn forum, what did you expect?

 

[Gab1]

I mean realistically, if someone tells you to convince them of something, it's generally a 'no thanks' wrapped in a prettier wrapper as the vast majority of individuals have a set outcome in mind when they say that.
She even outright says that she has no plans of volleyball at all in college. Her saying 'convince me' can also just be her trying to get that dick. Point of the matter is that at no point would I take that 'convince me' at face value, in my 35 years of living, the amount of people who I've come across that actually maintained a neutral position and genuinely wanted convincing can be counted on a single hand, and I spent a fair amount of time working with people in a lot of my working life.
The smoking gun is also her behaviour around it up until that point and even what she explicitely says in that same scene. She's straight up never even considered it, because she isn't interested in spending all of her waking hours doing training.

Also, Saki and Zoe are vastly different situations.
Lexi is about actively challenging her autonomy and her choice that she willfully made and still stand by, Saki was thrust into a situation that she didn't want to be in, and chose the only option she thought was available for her where the MC managed to be a way out, not because she wanted to be in that situation. Zoe straight up wanted to work with the MC, she was just socially inept and it ended in drama.
Neither of which can be compared to Lexi from a narrative standpoint since they all work with vastly different tropes behind them.

I have a few friends that do a lot of writing, specifically novel work, and all of them actively avoid congruency issues like the plague because it's the most difficult thing to try to write around without it feeling like an insult to the readers intelligence or being dismissive of a character.
Autonomy, when in relation to an actual wholesome story, is also a cardinal sin to interfere with when it comes to character work. You generally only fuck around with autonomy if you want someone in the story to come off as the biggest asshole imaginable.
Lexi, right now, has a combination of both of these things and trying to resolve them in a matter that people will like will be close to impossible.

Yeah, everything you said was right but there is one really small point that you have forgot , the real plot of Lexi is about leaving something she loves because it isnt fun anymore, the kind of people that doesnt work with autonomy are cowards because in the real world you arent absolutely free, there are always something that affect your autonomy... but this isnt about that.

Lexi love Volleyball, we see it when she get passionate about it talking about her rivalry with Fiona, she did said it herself, the next time they play she will show Fiona that she is better, now of course it would be terrible if she join because she feel bad for MC and she do something she hates to help him, but the thing is that Mc doesnt have that problem anymore because with Zoey came her friend too, in other words he doesnt need lexi to join to have a team, so Lexi joining wont be because the Mc needs her, it will be because she still love the sport which, to everybody but you, it mean she choose to be there, no manipulation, no forced, just her decision if she want to be there or not.

I really dont see any other way where that could be a bad writing, if you still find something there i will think that you are reaching.

Have a little faith in the dev, and in his vision, i think until now he has made a great job writing about Lexi, there is a reason why she is a fan favorite.

 

[Ciaran8023]

Yeah, everything you said was right but there is one really small point that you have forgot , the real plot of Lexi is about leaving something she loves because it isnt fun anymore, the kind of people that doesnt work with autonomy are cowards because in the real world you arent absolutely free, there are always something that affect your autonomy... but this isnt about that.

Lexi love Volleyball, we see it when she get passionate about it talking about her rivalry with Fiona, she did said it herself, the next time they play she will show Fiona that she is better, now of course it would be terrible if she join because she feel bad for MC and she do something she hates to help him, but the thing is that Mc doesnt have that problem anymore because with Zoey came her friend too, in other words he doesnt need lexi to join to have a team, so Lexi joining wont be because the Mc needs her, it will be because she still love the sport which, to everybody but you, it mean she choose to be there, no manipulation, no forced, just her decision if she want to be there or not.

I really dont see any other way where that could be a bad writing, if you still find something there i will think that you are reaching.

Have a little faith in the dev, and in his vision, i think until now he has made a great job writing about Lexi, there is a reason why she is a fan favorite.

There's a difference between your autonomy being challenged by extenuating circumstances, and someone outright challenging your autonomy. We both know this, that isn't exactly an applicable argument to this situation.

You can love something and still leave it behind. The fact that she is, still at this point, pretty clearly stating that she has no intention of playing volleyball means that she doesn't love it more than what she's doing right now. I also love the memories I have of playing soccer with a good friend of mine, but relishing in nostalgia doesn't mean that I actually want to play soccer more than I want to have my current type of life.
If she did, she would be playing still, so that argument isn't exactly a smoking gun by any means. She isn't the first nor the last to have stopped doing something she loved because it didn't allow her to live the life she wants to live, and that is why it's extremely difficult to reconcile narratively without making it feel compromised if that makes sense.

My take would be a stretch if she had shown any sort of hesitation or want to get back into things as I noted.. but she just hasn't, outside of a non-committal non-answer with her saying "convince me" which I already outlined being a lot more skewed towards 'no' than anything else.
Even something as small as her saying under her breath 'It was a lot of fun..' would open up a narrative avenue that could work. Right now it feels like it's trying to force a story through a closed door.

I think you just have a bit too much faith in the dev, there have been literal professional writers who struggle with characters like this because they end up writing themselves into a corner in terms of plausible and comfortable solutions that doesn't compromise either character.
As I noted, I don't think this can be solved without either making Lexi feel very wishy-washy which would have an impact on peoples enjoyment out of her as, atleast I believe, she is popular due to being a free spirit and living life, or this will make the MC feel like more of an asshole.

You did note Fiona, which I think is the way the dev will go about it, it would still feel pretty meh but it's the most logical thing given that it's the only thing Lexi has mentioned of notice.
I truly don't want to see Lexi decide to play because she wants the MC's dick, because that would introduce a whole host of other issues.

Suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Gab1]

There's a difference between your autonomy being challenged by extenuating circumstances, and someone outright challenging your autonomy. We both know this, that isn't exactly an applicable argument to this situation.

You can love something and still leave it behind. The fact that she is, still at this point, pretty clearly stating that she has no intention of playing volleyball means that she doesn't love it more than what she's doing right now. I also love the memories I have of playing soccer with a good friend of mine, but relishing in nostalgia doesn't mean that I actually want to play soccer more than I want to have my current type of life.
If she did, she would be playing still, so that argument isn't exactly a smoking gun by any means. She isn't the first nor the last to have stopped doing something she loved because it didn't allow her to live the life she wants to live, and that is why it's extremely difficult to reconcile narratively without making it feel compromised if that makes sense.

My take would be a stretch if she had shown any sort of hesitation or want to get back into things as I noted.. but she just hasn't, outside of a non-committal non-answer with her saying "convince me" which I already outlined being a lot more skewed towards 'no' than anything else.
Even something as small as her saying under her breath 'It was a lot of fun..' would open up a narrative avenue that could work. Right now it feels like it's trying to force a story through a closed door.

I think you just have a bit too much faith in the dev, there have been literal professional writers who struggle with characters like this because they end up writing themselves into a corner in terms of plausible and comfortable solutions that doesn't compromise either character.
As I noted, I don't think this can be solved without either making Lexi feel very wishy-washy which would have an impact on peoples enjoyment out of her as, atleast I believe, she is popular due to being a free spirit and living life, or this will make the MC feel like more of an asshole.

You did note Fiona, which I think is the way the dev will go about it, it would still feel pretty meh but it's the most logical thing given that it's the only thing Lexi has mentioned of notice.
I truly don't want to see Lexi decide to play because she wants the MC's dick, because that would introduce a whole host of other issues.

Suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Your take id s streech now, dont lie to yourself, in fact your analogy is kind of wrong, right now you are 35, of course you wouldnt want to play soccer, you wont be able to play even if you wanted, you cant compare yourself to this situation, even worse the fact that she doesnt hesitate like you think is wrong, she does have her.moments, but for some reason you dont want to see it, this is why in said you are reaching, this post is full of excuses that show me you are now being stuborn instead of trying to have a good reason.

There is nothing wishi washi about it, maybe you should say that you dont like the character, even worse you think being a pro writer is know everything, but a good writer knows that you are always learning, that is why there is amateur more famous that some pro.

Anyway, Lexi is wrote pretty great, and we have seen that Lopaphi is really careful to make sense of it (as much sense as an AVN can), i dont even think Fiona would be the deciding factor, like i said it will be the love for the sport what will make her play again.

So yeah, lets agree to disagree, but if everybody agree with me, maybe just maybe you have to rethink your ideas.

 

[Ciaran8023]

Your take id s streech now, dont lie to yourself, in fact your analogy is kind of wrong, right now you are 35, of course you wouldnt want to play soccer, you wont be able to play even if you wanted, you cant compare yourself to this situation, even worse the fact that she doesnt hesitate like you think is wrong, she does have her.moments, but for some reason you dont want to see it, this is why in said you are reaching, this post is full of excuses that show me you are now being stuborn instead of trying to have a good reason.

Your entire argument has just been "dude she wants to play, trust me" despite her saying specifically at multiple points that she isn't interested and just wants to have fun and fuck around. I've even played through the game a few times to specifically focus on her and how she acts, and there isn't a hint of her having second thoughts about what she's doing right now, and she's stated multiple times that she just wants to have fun and fuck around.
She also outright states that she turned down multiple scholarships for other schools because she didn't want to play, and specifically chose the school because the team sucked so she wouldn't have to be hounded to play.

She also didn't even sign up for the team, someone else did. Out of the two of us, it's pretty clear that the one reaching for straws isn't me if you're trying to infer that her wanting to play is somehow a foregone conclusion.
She's literally done everything short of moving to a different country to avoid playing volleyball.

There is nothing wishi washi about it, maybe you should say that you dont like the character, even worse you think being a pro writer is know everything, but a good writer knows that you are always learning, that is why there is amateur more famous that some pro.

But a pro writer "is know" a lot more than amateur ones when it comes to narrative structure and what actually works or not, and there's a reason why pro writers "is know" to avoid these specific scenarios.

Anyway, Lexi is wrote pretty great, and we have seen that Lopaphi is really careful to make sense of it (as much sense as an AVN can), i dont even think Fiona would be the deciding factor, like i said it will be the love for the sport what will make her play again.

So yeah, lets agree to disagree, but if everybody agree with me, maybe just maybe you have to rethink your ideas.

Again, replay the game and read what I wrote at the top there. She's straight up done everything she can to avoid playing the game.
If people are at the point of agreeing with your notion that she clearly wants to play volleyball, then people clearly haven't actually played the game.

 

[choff543]

I don't know why people want to make it so complicated. Lexi is unattached. Partying and drinking can only be fun for so long before it becomes self-destructive. She found a safe person that did not take advantage of her when he had the chance. Trying to take him away from the volleyball did not work. The only other way she will have to spend time with him will be as part of the team. People in real life have come together for less.

 

[Ciaran8023]

I don't know why people want to make it so complicated. Lexi is unattached. Partying and drinking can only be fun for so long before it becomes self-destructive. She found a safe person that did not take advantage of her when he had the chance. Trying to take him away from the volleyball did not work. The only other way she will have to spend time with him will be as part of the team. People in real life have come together for less.

I agree with that assessment, my argument is just that it would simply feel shitty to have a character basically change their entire college experience and divert from what they actually enjoy doing simply for a random schmuck MC.
That's why I noted that I'd be marginally more okay if she decided to 180 on her entire life due to Fiona as they atleast have some shared history together.

And it's less complicated, and more just people trying to argue something that isn't there. You pretty much perfectly encapsulated how things have been portrayed thus far.

 

[Artix0]

divert from what they actually enjoy doing

But Lexi wouldn't be diverting from what she actually enjoys doing.

She's enjoying partying for now, and she's currently open-minded to new experiences.

As you were already shown in the screenshots above, she will decide to do what she considers most fun.

If she starts volleyball again, it'll be because it's her decision that she enjoys doing it after spending some time with MC (which in itself is also another decision she makes of her own accord). Not anybody else's decision.

 

[Ciaran8023]

But Lexi wouldn't be diverting from what she actually enjoys doing.

She's enjoying partying for now, and she's currently open-minded to new experiences.

As you were already shown in the screenshots above, she will decide to do what she considers most fun.

If she starts volleyball again, it'll be because it's her decision that she enjoys doing it after spending some time with MC (which in itself is also another decision she makes of her own accord). Not anybody else's decision.

I don't disagree with that, but it's clear that the MC is the swaying point by design, and we all know that she's going to end up on the team regardless.
If a player decides to get involved with her then that's fair, I wouldn't say that it's the best decision by the character or the dev, but it's understandable. If a player decides not to do so, she's decided to do something she moved away from to begin with in hopes of romance, only to now be stuck playing the very thing she worked hard not to be involved with again.
This is also why I noted that Fiona is probably the only reasonable way to get her playing again without having the above scenario play out for example.

And let's not even try to imply that the MC isn't chomping at the bits to get her to play. You even had a choice early on take advantage of the situation and bug her about it. The game is basically built going "hey, do this or you're fucked", so I don't think anyone here can make an argument in good faith that the MC isn't going to try to sway her decision by any means.