- May 11, 2017
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Congrats Sihil on the new game. It's good to see you in production again. This looks good.
- Thread starter Sihil
- Start date
Okay, listen up fuckers because I am tired of repeating myself over and over again.
Here's a short(?) summary of all the drama.
- Sznuk with his irl friend creates Lord of Imagination, I play the first update, find it interesting and tell him I'm interested in writing for the game. The conversation ultimately went nowhere. If you don't like the title of the game, blame them.
- His friend leaves after like 2 updates, he was expecting this to be a massive cash cow, it wasn't. Sznuk takes me up on the offer. We agree on a sixty-forty partnership (pay attention to that word because it will be important later.)
- We work on the game for over a year and a half, all the while we pay for any expenses that come along for the game together, like paying for Rich's work of coding.
-Suddenly Sznuk locks me out of Patreon, dms me on discord that he's quitting, makes an announcement on the LoI discord and Patreon and then deletes the discord, after a while he also deleted the post on Patreon as well.
- I tell him to give me everything I need to continue the game and he refuses because apparently, I don't "legally" own the game. English is not his first language. He meant I don't have any moral rights to the game, not even a portion of it.
-I contest that but I can't really do much.
- Rich had like 3 files from the original game from which I had to reverse engineer Zel's model. I decided to create a spin-off which will be around episode 8-9 of the original game in the corruption path. That way I'll have a way to figure out how to create renders and still have something to show for the lost time.
- That brings us here. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Just once though, for the love of God.
Here's a short(?) summary of all the drama.
- Sznuk with his irl friend creates Lord of Imagination, I play the first update, find it interesting and tell him I'm interested in writing for the game. The conversation ultimately went nowhere. If you don't like the title of the game, blame them.
- His friend leaves after like 2 updates, he was expecting this to be a massive cash cow, it wasn't. Sznuk takes me up on the offer. We agree on a sixty-forty partnership (pay attention to that word because it will be important later.)
- We work on the game for over a year and a half, all the while we pay for any expenses that come along for the game together, like paying for Rich's work of coding.
-Suddenly Sznuk locks me out of Patreon, dms me on discord that he's quitting, makes an announcement on the LoI discord and Patreon and then deletes the discord, after a while he also deleted the post on Patreon as well.
- I tell him to give me everything I need to continue the game and he refuses because apparently, I don't "legally" own the game. English is not his first language. He meant I don't have any moral rights to the game, not even a portion of it.
-I contest that but I can't really do much.
- Rich had like 3 files from the original game from which I had to reverse engineer Zel's model. I decided to create a spin-off which will be around episode 8-9 of the original game in the corruption path. That way I'll have a way to figure out how to create renders and still have something to show for the lost time.
- That brings us here. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Just once though, for the love of God.
- Jan 14, 2018
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Instead of getting pissed at people for asking questions that have been asked before (because maybe some people aren't constantly browsing your threads and as such are not up-to-date with things like myself). You could have been proactive and asked a mod to post this explanation in the OP maybe? Or taken the initiative to post the game yourself with said explanation if it was gonna get pirated anyway. Instead of getting pissed at people that take an active interest in your game. Just a suggestion.
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- Jul 6, 2018
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Maybe people could read the multiple posts that were made since the first page, explaining the situation, just a suggestion.
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Ok, at this point, you've got no rights to the main game. Bein 60/40, and you only being a hired writer for all intent and purposes. (no offense.)
So, you can probably get away with a prologue spinoff, but not a remaster of the actual game.
You can however, create a MOD of the main game. Beware though, you'll be threading on very murky legal territory here.
Depending on which country the IP/copyright owner of the original game lives in, and where you live in, considering the amount of people playing and so on, you can probably get away with it, as long as you do not end up making too much money out of it.
If it starts being big, and you make money out of it, being the owner of the original game, the other guy can probably become a real pain in the ass legally speaking (depending on countries and so on.)
At this point, while it would be "disappointing", you'd probably be better of making something similar, but with different characters altogether. Just my suggestions there of course.
One thing you absolutely should not do if you still plan on "remaking the main game", is take assets and renders present in the other game. You can recreate them under Daz's terms of use, but not re-use what's present in the other game.
- Jan 14, 2018
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I did and nothing I asked was explain before the post that I quoted so if this discussing took place in the previous game thread then will just reiterate my point that I made in the previous post. Very simply just post it in the OP so everybody could see it instead of getting mad at fans/people that are interesting in your game because this way your not earning any points with me. And ill be less likely to sub to your patreon.
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I sent the mod a message before posting that. I've also told them to remove the abandoned tag before but that went nowhere it seems. If I actually knew the game would be posted here today, sure, i would've made preparations but I wasn't so here we are.
Nobody expects you to keep up with the game's news and I'm not angry. The post was meant to convey ironic frustration that comes with a dejected sigh that comes when you repeat something for the hundredth time rather than someone fuming and farting over a mistake some random person made over the internet.
- Jul 6, 2018
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There is no copyright here because you don't "Own" a DAZ visual novel, you don't even own the assets you bought, you only paid for the right to use them for your personal or commercial use, same with renpy, the moment you try to copyright your VN DAZ Studio will be waiting for you with a lawsuit of epic proportions.
That's not accurate I'm afraid.
Daz grants you ownership of your renders. But you are correct on the assets, you do not own the assets, only a license to use them.
If this was not the case, nobody would be able to get finances or sell their games anywhere if they used Daz, and anyone could steal the renders, make a new game with a different text, which is of course, not the case.
Anything created in Art/entertainment, gets an automatic copyright as soon as it is created. The only burden if you do not manually register it, is proving that you've created it during a lawsuit.
In this case, the game having been published, and the ownership being public knowledge, there'd no defense possible, the original owner has all the rights and copyrights to it.
- Jan 14, 2018
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Actually he cant. Like you said if he is the creator of said concept and its execution then he owns the right both to the code and the visual artwork. Meaning that if Sihil reproduces it in anyway he is effectively infringing on his copyright. It would be the same as when people created their own game of say LoTR and they reproduce that specific lore and world. Pretty sure the original owners would sue. It happened with other game to. Fans where reproducing the Knights of the Old Republic and they got a cease and desist letter from Lucas Arts lawyers eventually.
- May 17, 2018
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I wish you all the best with this Sihil I did enjoy Lord of Imagination and was disappointed that it ‘disappeared’ for no apparent reason.
Seems as you suggested internal copyright conflicts were the reason. Hopefully you have an easier time and no conflicts this time.
Still, hoping to see original game finished at some point.
Seems as you suggested internal copyright conflicts were the reason. Hopefully you have an easier time and no conflicts this time.
Still, hoping to see original game finished at some point.
- Jan 14, 2018
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^ this. I learned this in school too in a class that specifically talked about copyright with regards to media.
In theory yes, however, Daz Licensing terms blows that out of the water.
Otherwise, you could NEVER have "similar models and situations" between games, as it could be argued very easily they're a copy and so on.
This is why there are multiple version of "big brother", because you can freely recreate something very similar under the Daz terms of use
Which is where RECREATING renders, is ok, but using pre-existing ones, is not.
I don't think you have a whole lot of experience in this area so feel free to prove me wrong. The "legality" of this all is null and void. There was no legal document signed so he can do fuck all for one thing. Secondly, we were partners, if the ratio were 50/50, we'd be partners and if it were 95/5, we'd still be partners. We took a share of the earning and we invested it together in the game. He'd pay 60 percent of it, I'd pay 40. How many employees actually pay for company expenses with their own wages?
And I wasn't just "hired" for writing. I also did the community, outreach, cross-overs with other creators, etc.
It's just weird how you can make so many assertions without any basis in facts.
You must be registered to see the links
When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.
As for ownership, him having a 60% ownership, means he's got more than the majority of it. Meaning, whatever he says goes, he doesn't need to run anything by you. If you were 50/50, then yeah, you'd be allowed to anything, but at 40%, you're a minority holder, and if there was no contract to speak of as you said, you actually, own nothing, period.
He created the first public version of the game, which defacto made him the copyright holder. He then brought you in as a writer, and no contracts were signed.
Sorry, you have no rights to anything I'm afraid.
You do have some wiggle room under Daz's terms however, as long as you recreate every renders, there's no issues on that side. BUT, he could still get you to court if he wished, just to be a pest and get you to spend cash on defense.
The main decided factor here, is what you said yourself: "there's no legal contract", which by default, means you own or are entitled to nothing.
The best you could get, is forcing him to credit your writing work in the credits, as a hired writer, but since there isn't even a contract, you couldn't even ask 1 cent off him I'm afraid.
- Jan 14, 2018
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I highly doubt that. Because that would mean anybody would be able to reproduce/duplicate another's game visual and world without the original owners permission effectively recreating said IP and I'm pretty sure copyright doesn't work like that.In theory yes, however, Daz Licensing terms blows that out of the water.
Otherwise, you could NEVER have "similar models and situations" between games, as it could be argued very easily they're a copy and so on.
This is why there are multiple version of "big brother", because you can freely recreate something very similar under the Daz terms of use
Which is where RECREATING renders, is ok, but using pre-existing ones, is not.
You can reproduce the renders under Daz terms, no wiggle or debate room on that. Beside, even if you're trying to reproduce a render, it would be almost impossible to have it 100% identical. It could potentially be done, but considering the setting and team sizes, it would only end up being a massive waste of time. Making them "kinda similar" would be ok, and much easier anyway.
Not the text.
However, you do not own the text, anymore than anyone hired to write an episode of starwars owns it, especially without contract.
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- Jan 14, 2018
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Yes exactly. Copyright is based on concepts like music, books or in this case a game. Meaning yes he might recreate the renders of the characters under Daz terms but he cannot use the lore or world building of "Lord of imagination" meaning he cannot name the characters the same or use the same world, events and storyline from the original game etc etc.
I really don't see how you're so confident in your stance here after committing so many fallacies. It's really absurd. How did you come up with those numbers, for instance? Moreover, You link an American site when none of the parties involved are American. Internationally enforcible copyright over an IP isn't something you wave into existence through the sheer tyranny of will.
The same lack of legal contracts by definition means he owns nothing as well in the strictest sense. The only thing that he without a shadow of a doubt he does own is the Patreon page. Even if 3 people were to create a game with the same name as Lord of Imagination, there'd be no legal case for him IN HIS OWN country because there's no legal document that proves his ownership over the game.
The lore, as long as it's kept "general", would be ok. He'd only have to label it as a parody to get away with it really
He'd probably need to "parody" the title too. But we're in greyish area here.
The main issue being that the owner of everything, did not want or allow any work to be done on it since he closed it off.
If that person decides to be a pest, he can really be one.
Seeing how badly their "relationship" ended, it certainly would be much safer to simply do a different thing altogether, while being similarish.
I mean, the whole magic mind altering/controlling thing, is hardly a rare thing in Adult VNs, and they could all be argued to have very similar lores too.