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Skyangel007

Member
Jan 14, 2018
250
343
I really don't see how you're so confident in your stance here after committing so many fallacies. It's really absurd. How did you come up with those numbers, for instance? Moreover, You link an American site when none of the parties involved are American. Internationally enforcible copyright over an IP isn't something you handwave out of existence through the sheer tyranny of will.
The same lack of legal contracts by definition means he owns nothing as well in the strictest sense. The only thing that he without a shadow of a doubt he does own is the Patreon page. Even if 3 people were to create a game with the same name as Lord of Imagination, there'd be no legal case for him IN HIS OWN country because there's no legal document that proves his ownership over the game.
Where i'm from these rules are pretty much the same (and I don't live in the US but in EU).

Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.
This is usually a general rule with regards to copyright. Also he can definitely proof it if he has the original files with timestamps on his renders and code files. Even more so if he has digital note's on the story or concept before its inception into code/renders (again with timestamps).
 

Deleted member 2755092

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2020
1,484
2,624
I really don't see how you're so confident in your stance here after committing so many fallacies. It's really absurd. How did you come up with those numbers, for instance? Moreover, You link an American site when none of the parties involved are American. Internationally enforcible copyright over an IP isn't something you wave into existence through the sheer tyranny of will.
The same lack of legal contracts by definition means he owns nothing as well in the strictest sense. The only thing that he without a shadow of a doubt he does own is the Patreon page. Even if 3 people were to create a game with the same name as Lord of Imagination, there'd be no legal case for him IN HIS OWN country because there's no legal document that proves his ownership over the game.
International copyright laws, are pretty much a copy/paste of the US ones.

While there can be some differences from one country to the next, they're very similar all over, otherwise, it would be a massive cluster fuck when let's say someone in a 3rd world country copy/paste let's say a movie from a big company in another country. It simply could not work internationally.

While I am truly sorry you own nothing, without a contract, regardless of which country you reside in, you are entitled to nothing here. I'd LOVE for the game to continue, but, you've got no rights to it.
 

Skyangel007

Member
Jan 14, 2018
250
343
The lore, as long as it's kept "general", would be ok. He'd only have to label it as a parody to get away with it really :)
He'd probably need to "parody" the title too. But we're in greyish area here.
I agree but then you would need to change the narrative of the game otherwise it wont hold up in court.
edit: With that I mean it has to be a more comedy kind of game.

The main issue being that the owner of everything, did not want or allow any work to be done on it since he closed it off.
If that person decides to be a pest, he can really be one.

Seeing how badly their "relationship" ended, it certainly would be much safer to simply do a different thing altogether, while being similarish.

I mean, the whole magic mind altering/controlling thing, is hardly a rare thing in Adult VNs, and they could all be argued to have very similar lores too.
I agree with this.
 

Sihil

Active Member
Game Developer
Sep 22, 2017
558
2,338
Where i'm from these rules are pretty much the same (and I don't live in the US but in EU).



This is usually a general rule with regards to copyright. Also he can definitely proof it if he has the original files with timestamps on his renders and code files. Even more so if he has digital note's on the story or concept before its inception into code/renders.
At best that means, he owns the renders. Which he does. He has access to neither the story nor the code.
International copyright laws, are pretty much a copy/paste of the US ones.

While there can be some differences from one country to the next, they're very similar all over, otherwise, it would be a massive cluster fuck when let's say someone in a 3rd world country copy/paste let's say a movie from a big company in another country. It simply could not work internationally.

While I am truly sorry you own nothing, without a contract, regardless of which country you reside in, you are entitled to nothing here. I'd LOVE for the game to continue, but, you've got no rights to it.
Well, the international copyright law is a clusterfuck. The only reason larger corporations manage to enforce them are because they have a solid legal footing and a well-paid legal team. It's simply never cost-effective otherwise.
 
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Deleted member 2755092

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2020
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At best that means, he owns the renders. Which he does. He has access to neither the story nor the code.
they have a solid legal footing and a well-paid legal team.
It would be correct if you had a legal contract granting you rights, but as it stands, he owns the game's copyright and everything that comes to it since he is the creator and owner.

You were only brought in as a writer, meaning, you own nothing (I'm truly sorry, but that's how it is.)

Technically speaking, he could legally force you to release everything you've got and he has no access to, as it is his property.

Well, the international copyright law is a clusterfuck. The only reason larger corporations manage to enforce them are because they have a solid legal footing and a well-paid legal team.
Partly correct, they're complex and certainly designed to help out the bigger ones. Which in your case, is 100% against you, as you are not the owner :(

I really am sorry, this situation sucks, especially since it was a really good game.
But in my honest opinion, you'd be much better of creating something else, while similar, but keeping it different.

I mean, I do not know what the current situation is with the game's owner, but if it's still as bad, it would save you a lot of potential issues later on.
 

Deleted member 2755092

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2020
1,484
2,624
PR stunts tend to increase the money one's making.
What a pain in the ass. I'll continue with this game and see what he's planning.
It's up to you man, at the end of the day, if both are somehow going to happen, we the players are the real winners here ^_^
 

groove888

Member
Apr 12, 2017
221
216
Mhmm don't envy being in your shoes right now.

Uninvited advice, I'd scrub the name and some specifics of the original game and move on with your game being it's own IP (Lord of Imagination being already a mash up of multiple ideas and genres).

There is room and appetite for good and well written mind control games IMO.

Good luck Sihil wish the best for your project.
 
Sep 3, 2020
4,522
31,535
Huh, wasn't expecting the prologue to be here already.

Anal, cheating, corruption, creampie, drugs, dystopian setting, fantasy, harem, incest, male domination, mind control, multiple ending, pregnancy, rape (CNC), superpowers

No, the previous MC is the percieved antagonist. The previous game had good and bad paths, this one just had the bad path. Generally, there'll be fewer choices so that I can finish this game quickly. There'll be mind control though it'll be more subdued. The MC is a massive cunt and pretty much the polar opposite compared to the LoI protag.
yeah no thanks

I don't like playing

as a bad person so I'll wait for

the main game to return
 

DA22

Devoted Member
Jan 10, 2018
8,082
16,668
Where i'm from these rules are pretty much the same (and I don't live in the US but in EU).



This is usually a general rule with regards to copyright. Also he can definitely proof it if he has the original files with timestamps on his renders and code files. Even more so if he has digital note's on the story or concept before its inception into code/renders (again with timestamps).
Actually if he did not have a contract with Sihil and Sihil was the writer, Sihil still has all rights to the writing. Not to the renders and Sihil could actually sue him for using his text/writing/lore without permission in his game, though proving it could be hard. :p There is a reason why smart devs do make sure they have a contract or permission in writing when use the mods or work of others in their game even if just some small code, since else they open themselves to a claim of a part of the profits by those third parties.

As always in law, proof is the major problem most of the time, but with Daz rules as a dev you only really have the right to the renders as you produce them and as are in game, So Sihil cannot just copy them or take them out of old game and has to make new ones and able to proof that. The rest, well that will be an expensive lawsuit for both parties and it will come down to who can show proof. Sznuk just pulling plug on a partnership though if proven, will not help him in having acted fair and in good faith to that partner whether he had a majority or not of influence.

Remember there is more as just copyright law playing out here, just basic commercial law concerning partnerships also plays and dividing up the spoils at end of that endeavour. A judge might well in a case like this award all rights to Sihil or parts of them.
 
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Sihil

Active Member
Game Developer
Sep 22, 2017
558
2,338
Mhmm don't envy being in your shoes right now.

Uninvited advice, I'd scrub the name and some specifics of the original game and move on with your game being it's own IP (Lord of Imagination being already a mash up of multiple ideas and genres).

There is room and appetite for good and well written mind control games IMO.

Good luck Sihil wish the best for your project.
You know, I thought so too at first but actually, this is perfect. It was never about me finishing the project, just that the project gets finished. If he wants to finish the game he can go ahead. I can focus all of my energy on this game instead of trying to fit it to a mold that was never that good, to begin with anyway.
So what's next? The MC wouldn't just be evil or an anti-hero now. In general, this will mean more choices, more paths and more girls but I'd opt for going deeper and wider. In short, I give this game my 100 percent instead of worrying about a game that may or may not come in the future.
And let's face it "Lord of Imagination" has always been a stupid fucking name.
 

Semantics

Member
Apr 28, 2017
295
374
It would be correct if you had a legal contract granting you rights, but as it stands, he owns the game's copyright and everything that comes to it since he is the creator and owner.

You were only brought in as a writer, meaning, you own nothing (I'm truly sorry, but that's how it is.)

Technically speaking, he could legally force you to release everything you've got and he has no access to, as it is his property.



Partly correct, they're complex and certainly designed to help out the bigger ones. Which in your case, is 100% against you, as you are not the owner :(

I really am sorry, this situation sucks, especially since it was a really good game.
But in my honest opinion, you'd be much better of creating something else, while similar, but keeping it different.

I mean, I do not know what the current situation is with the game's owner, but if it's still as bad, it would save you a lot of potential issues later on.
Where i'm from these rules are pretty much the same (and I don't live in the US but in EU).



This is usually a general rule with regards to copyright. Also he can definitely proof it if he has the original files with timestamps on his renders and code files. Even more so if he has digital note's on the story or concept before its inception into code/renders (again with timestamps).
Putting aside the fact that a brief browse through discussions from actual practicing business/IP attorneys shows this is far more complicated and messy than you two are making it out to be... (IP rights can be owned by a business instead of an individual, Sznuk didn't come up with this project alone and almost certainly didn't ask his friend to sign a legal document giving up whatever rights the friend might have had, and international cases can be an issue in terms of differing laws/not having an agreement between countries or potentially increased cost/time.)

The real and easy question is this: Does a novice VN dev who was funding his project via Patreon have enough money sitting around to sue someone in a different country because of spite alone?

The answer's probably no. And even if the answer is surprisingly "yes," if Sihil has decided to go through with this project, a couple of people who've professed absolutely no legal expertise beyond what they've read on the internet probably aren't going to convince him to stop.

Also, obviously: Not legal advice.
 

Deleted member 2755092

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2020
1,484
2,624
Putting aside the fact that a brief browse through discussions from actual practicing business/IP attorneys shows this is far more complicated and messy than you two are making it out to be... (IP rights can be owned by a business instead of an individual, Sznuk didn't come up with this project alone and almost certainly didn't ask his friend to sign a legal document giving up whatever rights the friend might have had, and international cases can be an issue in terms of differing laws/not having an agreement between countries or potentially increased cost/time.)

The real and easy question is this: Does a novice VN dev who was funding his project via Patreon have enough money sitting around to sue someone in a different country because of spite alone?

The answer's probably no. And even if the answer is surprisingly "yes," if Sihil has decided to go through with this project, a couple of people who've professed absolutely no legal expertise beyond what they've read on the internet probably aren't going to convince him to stop.
I was thinking of something here, but since the original owner is back to life apparently, I won't go any further with either sides.

I would just suggest they both agree to let both happen, and drop whatever they had previously.
But hey, it's their life :)
 

Fazed

Well-Known Member
Nov 21, 2018
1,811
3,940
You know, I thought so too at first but actually, this is perfect. It was never about me finishing the project, just that the project gets finished. If he wants to finish the game he can go ahead. I can focus all of my energy on this game instead of trying to fit it to a mold that was never that good, to begin with anyway.
So what's next? The MC wouldn't just be evil or an anti-hero now. In general, this will mean more choices, more paths and more girls but I'd opt for going deeper and wider. In short, I give this game my 100 percent instead of worrying about a game that may or may not come in the future.
And let's face it "Lord of Imagination" has always been a stupid fucking name.
I like this idea. I really was hoping to see an ending to the original game but if this turn of events ends with the result of 2 decent games or even just one with a complete story then I'm all for it.
 
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Skyangel007

Member
Jan 14, 2018
250
343
Putting aside the fact that a brief browse through discussions from actual practicing business/IP attorneys shows this is far more complicated and messy than you two are making it out to be... (IP rights can be owned by a business instead of an individual, Sznuk didn't come up with this project alone and almost certainly didn't ask his friend to sign a legal document giving up whatever rights the friend might have had, and international cases can be an issue in terms of differing laws/not having an agreement between countries or potentially increased cost/time.)

The real and easy question is this: Does a novice VN dev who was funding his project via Patreon have enough money sitting around to sue someone in a different country because of spite alone?

The answer's probably no. And even if the answer is surprisingly "yes," if Sihil has decided to go through with this project, a couple of people who've professed absolutely no legal expertise beyond what they've read on the internet probably aren't going to convince him to stop.

Also, obviously: Not legal advice.
True its probably way more complicated and neither will probably have the capital to even sue one another in their respected countries. But they can still make their case with Patreon to get each others game off that platform.
 
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Deleted member 2755092

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2020
1,484
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True its probably way more complicated and neither will probably have the capital to even sue one another in their respected countries. But they can still make their case with Patreon to get each others game of that platform.
I see we do think alike.
That was what I did not want to post earlier *chuckles*