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VN Ren'Py Completed 23 Sisters [v1.0 Final] [Abere Lucifer]

3.30 star(s) 116 Votes
Discussion Reviews (116)
U

UncleFredo

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2020
1,940
3,671
Doc5252 Productions said:
I do want to know what y'all think about the web novel, so please leave me some feedback. Good or bad.
Click to expand...
So Doc,
I think my prior comments here clearly demonstrate I'm a fan of your VNs, so all of this is intended to be helpful.
The story and writing are fine as far as they go. Here's the problem, the participants in this thread are not the audience to evaluate your writing in this story. We've already experienced it in your VN. It's a bit weird, kind of like seeing the movie before you read the book. Plus the vast majority here love and are entertained by your work, so we have an inherent bias in your favor.

For example, at one point I couldn't help but laugh when an exchange caused the scene from the VN to pop into my mind.

To get an honest evaluation you need readers who haven't been exposed to 23sisters.
 
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JoeTheMC84

JoeTheMC84

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2021
1,603
6,591
Doc5252 Productions said:
Here is the "Prologue" to the 23 Sisters Web Novel. It ain't to long. I hope y'all enjoy it.
You must be registered to see the links
Click to expand...
I was a creative writing teacher for a few years. So, some tips:

First it reads like a script to the visual novel more than a separate novelization. It's dialog heavy and the descriptions and emotional call outs are pretty barebones. I would advise adding more time at each location, expanding the descriptions. The prolog should establish Jack's "normal life" a little more so when he is pulled out of it by the story later it is more of a contrast. Develop Jack's character a little more. Is he a good guy who is in a shit situation or is he kind of a dick but means well? It almost feels like you're still writing Jack like he is the MC that a reader should self-insert into instead of the main character of the novel.

For example, In the line were the alarm clocks goes off. Add something there. Maybe like, "Jack's fucking alarm clock was going off again. Drawing him out of his pleasant dreams. He rolled over in his warm bed and turned off the alarm, dreading the coming day." Instead of just a quick almost bullet point moment, expand it and draw out more emotions from the character with it.

Also, more details for the other characters are a good thing to add as well. What's the mother's name, what does she look like? Does he hate living with her because he feels emasculated by the situation, or does she nag him? Give some characterization to the mother so we know how we should see her. Is she a loving mother wanting the best for him? An overbearing and controlling mother? A resentful mother?

Jack and Abby have a sexual relationship, but their interaction is short and doesn't give us much to go off of. Build on what Jack thinks of her as a person beyond just the fact that she's a little weird. Abby is an exhibitionist and wears funny clothes but what does she look like? Then someone named Alice is brought up, who is Alice? I assume she is Abby's sister, but more clarity there would be good since Abby's sister, mom, and Jack's mom have all been introduced and not named. You could fix this easily by say, "Abby lives with her mom, Name, and her sister, Alice." Where right now it just says she lives with her mom and sister.

Edit: You could also use this interaction with Abby to add a little early eroticism. Maybe have him reflect on the night before. Having him think something like, "I can still imagine her soft lips against mine..." and so on, after commenting on how crazy last night was.

It's clear Jack hates working at the restaurant, but what does he hate about it? Does he feel it is beneath him? Spend some more time with him there doing the job. Are the customers rude? Having him interacting with customers would be a great way to show us more about him as a character. Does he get disrespected at work by his boss or other co-workers? From what we see it doesn't seem all that bad, Olivia (the only other co-worker we see) seems really nice to him, trying to cheer him up and even offering to cover for him later when he has to leave.

How sympathetic do you want your main character to be? In the interactions with Olivia, she is kind, but he is dismissive and rude to her. This can be chalked up to him hating his job, but again we never see why he hates it so much. Or is he acting like this just because he is kind of a dick? It's hard to get a clear read on which way we should see the character. It's said that he is "stupid" by the unknown narrator, but is he stupid-stupid or just frivolous and immature? Both cases could be made, and the latter seems more likely by the end of the prolog. This interaction at the restaurant being expanded can give us a good idea of who he is as a character.

Giving David a little more description would be a good idea too. We know he is big, what shirt he is wearing, and that he has an effeminate voice, but what's his hair like? Is he big with "soft eyes," or an "imposing glare?" Take the moment to give us more than his size, shirt, and voice and tell us about his character.

$50,000 really isn't enough to outright quite a job, but it might be enough for Jack to say, "Well, if he fires me, he fires me, so be it."

I hope you keep working on this, using it as an opportunity to give deeper insight into the characters of the world that we don't always get in the game. Since you are using third person narration over first person you can have thoughts from other characters as well. You can use this to develop the other characters more than you could in the game.

Now a bit of positive feedback: The interactions with Grant at the end are solid. It's obvious that Grant is the character in the novel so far you have the most foundation and knowledge of. You know who he is as a character and how he needs to come across and so he is easy to imagine as a person. He comes across clear and you did a good job showing the type of character he is. Well done.

There is a typo when Jack is talking to Grant. After Grant brings up the $12 billion the first time there is a line that reads:
"What do I've got to do?" Jack was already here, so he figured he might as well hear what crazy plan Grant had in mind.
Should be, "What do I have to do?" for the most grammatically appropriate way, or "What have I got to do?" to be a little less formal but still accurate grammar-wise, or "What do I got to do?" if you want it to sound a little more redneck-ish.

I did enjoy it, same as I enjoy the game, and hope you will keep it going and expand it into a more descriptive novelization. I hope you found my tips helpful. Other than that, I don't have much else to add right now. Having played the game I was able to visualize the characters and places well enough and already know who these characters are for the most part, but anyone without that framework will need more to go off of. I tried to think about from that perspective as I was reading and give my advice in that mindset as well.

I hope you all enjoyed another JoeTheMC essay...
 
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Abere Lucifer Productions

Abere Lucifer Productions

Conversation Conqueror
Game Developer
May 31, 2017
7,894
24,972
JoeTheMC84 said:
I was a creative writing teacher for a few years. So, some tips:

First it reads like a script to the visual novel more than a separate novelization. It's dialog heavy and the descriptions and emotional call outs are pretty barebones. I would advise adding more time at each location, expanding the descriptions. The prolog should establish Jack's "normal life" a little more so when he is pulled out of it by the story later it is more of a contrast. Develop Jack's character a little more. Is he a good guy who is in a shit situation or is he kind of a dick but means well? It almost feels like you're still writing Jack like he is the MC that a reader should self-insert into instead of the main character of the novel.

For example, In the line were the alarm clocks goes off. Add something there. Maybe like, "Jack's fucking alarm clock was going off again. Drawing him out of his pleasant dreams. He rolled over in his warm bed and turned off the alarm, dreading the coming day." Instead of just a quick almost bullet point moment, expand it and draw out more emotions from the character with it.

Also, more details for the other characters are a good thing to add as well. What's the mother's name, what does she look like? Does he hate living with her because he feels emasculated by the situation, or does she nag him? Give some characterization to the mother so we know how we should see her. Is she a loving mother wanting the best for him? An overbearing and controlling mother? A resentful mother?

Jack and Abby have a sexual relationship, but their interaction is short and doesn't give us much to go off of. Build on what Jack thinks of her as a person beyond just the fact that she's a little weird. Abby is an exhibitionist and wears funny clothes but what does she look like? Then someone named Alice is brought up, who is Alice? I assume she is Abby's sister, but more clarity there would be good since Abby's sister, mom, and Jack's mom have all been introduced and not named. You could fix this easily by say, "Abby lives with her mom, Name, and her sister, Alice." Where right now it just says she lives with her mom and sister.

It's clear Jack hates working at the restaurant, but what does he hate about it? Does he feel it is beneath him? Spend some more time with him there doing the job. Are the customers rude? Having him interacting with customers would be a great way to show us more about him as a character. Does he get disrespected at work by his boss or other co-workers? From what we see it doesn't seem all that bad, Olivia (the only other co-worker we see) seems really nice to him, trying to cheer him up and even offering to cover for him later when he has to leave.

How sympathetic do you want your main character to be? In the interactions with Olivia, she is kind, but he is dismissive and rude to her. This can be chalked up to him hating his job, but again we never see why he hates it so much. Or is he acting like this just because he is kind of a dick? It's hard to get a clear read on which way we should see the character. It's said that he is "stupid" by the unknown narrator, but is he stupid-stupid or just frivolous and immature? Both cases could be made, and the latter seems more likely by the end of the prolog. This interaction at the restaurant being expanded can give us a good idea of who he is as a character.

Giving David a little more description would be a good idea too. We know he is big, what shirt he is wearing, and that he has an effeminate voice, but what's his hair like? Is he big with "soft eyes," or an "imposing glare?" Take the moment to give us more than his size, shirt, and voice and tell us about his character.

$50,000 really isn't enough to outright quite a job, but it might be enough for Jack to say, "Well, if he fires me, he fires me, so be it."

I hope you keep working on this, using it as an opportunity to give deeper insight into the characters of the world that we don't always get in the game. Since you are using third person narration over first person you can have thoughts from other characters as well. You can use this to develop the other characters more than you could in the game.

Now a bit of positive feedback: The interactions with Grant at the end are solid. It's obvious that Grant is the character in the novel so far you have the most foundation and knowledge of. You know who he is as a character and how he needs to come across and so he is easy to imagine as a person. He comes across clear and you did a good job showing the type of character he is. Well done.

There is a typo when Jack is talking to Grant. After Grant brings up the $12 billion the first time there is a line that reads:
"What do I've got to do?" Jack was already here, so he figured he might as well hear what crazy plan Grant had in mind.
Should be, "What do I have to do?" for the most grammatically appropriate way, or "What have I got to do?" to be a little less formal but still accurate grammar-wise, or "What do I got to do?" if you want it to sound a little more redneck-ish.

I did enjoy it, same as I enjoy the game, and hope you will keep it going and expand it into a more descriptive novelization. I hope you found my tips helpful. Other than that, I don't have much else to add right now. Having played the game I was able to visualize the characters and places well enough and already know who these characters are for the most part, but anyone without that framework will need more to go off of. I tried to think about from that perspective as I was reading and give my advice in that mindset as well.

I hope you all enjoyed another JoeTheMC essay...
Click to expand...
I did find it helpful. Thank you.
 
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Gizmogobum

Member
Nov 11, 2020
265
585
jstreet said:
No idea and watch out about talking about Doc's other works it can get this thread locked again.
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Ummm in the loosest possible terms (terms that won't get this thread locked) can you please explain why? The I (ends with est) word games are not exactly rare on this site? Or is it that the dev does not like his works being on this site and asked for it to be removed? Given that doc posts here it seems unlikely though.
 
jstreet

jstreet

Engaged Member
Jan 7, 2018
3,440
5,148
Gizmogobum said:
Ummm in the loosest possible terms (terms that won't get this thread locked) can you please explain why? The I (ends with est) word games are not exactly rare on this site? Or is it that the dev does not like his works being on this site and asked for it to be removed? Given that doc posts here it seems unlikely though.
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I don't think Doc would be that evil it's more like someone didn't like it. I have to go to Doc's itch page for stuff that doesn't come here.
 
Master of Puppets

Master of Puppets

Conversation Conqueror
Oct 5, 2017
7,552
10,063
Gizmogobum said:
Ummm in the loosest possible terms (terms that won't get this thread locked) can you please explain why? The I (ends with est) word games are not exactly rare on this site? Or is it that the dev does not like his works being on this site and asked for it to be removed? Given that doc posts here it seems unlikely though.
Click to expand...
Rule seven, I believe.
 
Dylan741

Dylan741

Forum Fanatic
Nov 18, 2019
4,694
9,358
jstreet said:
No it's just Doc would have to hire a woman with a sexy voice to read it so we can listen to it while driving or doing other things.;) But lets face reality this Doc he is to cheap and we'll get some old guy.;):KEK:
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Or the guys from Honest Trailers... In that case I wouldn't mind...:p :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 
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3.30 star(s) 116 Votes