Unity Completed 3D Visual Novel Maker [Final] [Games For Pleasure]

[macadam]

yeah...

no thanks...

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My review of it.

it's in french, use google to translate if ya want. But i suppose it's not required considering how the dev himself answered to me.


i guess it is indeed hard to work on improvement by selling stuff at higher price than buying them directly on DAZ.

i keep my opinion about it. bought it, refunded half an hour later.

 

[localhost]

I was going to spend my money to give it a try, but the app was taken off of the Steam Store. Note from developer:

I just received "DMCA takedown notice" and sent back a clarification of the situation.
It is not going from Steam but from Daz3D

Daz3D say - "explicitly prohibits the creation of 2D renders from software using the Daz content"

I cant find such point in Daz rules...

Given this app has been on Steam for some time but was taken down shortly after being posted here, I am going to *guess* that this thread may have triggered that somehow.

 

[macadam]

I was going to spend my money to give it a try, but the app was taken off of the Steam Store. Note from developer:


Given this app has been on Steam for some time but was taken down shortly after being posted here, I am going to *guess* that this thread may have triggered that somehow.

to be honest.
something was always looking shaddy in that.

i mean by that, that the "game/software/thing" actually use (and potentially "own") a while shit bunch of DAz things, such as characters that cost big money.
So, it is pretty shady that such a small dev bought all theses characters and outfits and all.... as the FREAKING EXTENDED LICENSE (i say it loudly as extended license cost an real arm, instead of normal license)... to implent the whole 3D model in such a small piece of software that is sell for few bucks.

i dont mind the fact the outfits and such is sell at more high price that they cost on DAZ.

but again, it's like 3% of the stuff present in this software that are available with extended license. most of the things doesn't have extended license, wich mean, you are not allowed to actually use the whole 3D model in your software/game , but only 2D renders made with them.

as this have only full 3D models, it's hard to believe this thing wasn't made without any weird and shaddy way.


to give a simple and more easier explanation...


visual novel game > use 2D renders made of DAz models > normall icense to buy from few buck to 80 bucks for pro pack maybe a bit more)

full 3d game > use complete 3D models of DAz assets > require extended license wich cost between 80 up to 300 bucks for simple thing.


that's why usually full 3d games doesn't use DAz model of 40 different chars and hundreds of outfits and items. it will cost wayyy too much.

even more if you plan to release your game for 10 bucks or so, and a bunch of DLCs for 10 bucks each. you will never get your investment back. It may be possible for a full game, but for such program/software... no way.

i dont think, posting it here really affected that. probably just someone reported it to DAz for using a whole bunch of assets without the proper extended license (even worse if the extended license of the asset doesn't even exist)

 

[anavchaud]

oh wow.... prepare for some (mostly bad) games LOL

 

[Diconica]

As I understand it (not a lawyer, etc), with the "DAZ interactive license" you can use the models in commercial video games, not just renderings.
Now, does this count as a game with user content (like a mario maker level, everything is part of the game) or is it a tool (like, erm Unity or RPGM ) where the output is a standalone product? If you argue the latter, then this interactive license may not be enough.
Assuming the stuff is not just downloaded from the internet anyway

My comment was more directed at the misuse of the unity engine itself. I hadn't looked at the status of the content just thought it was an interesting point that paralleled the issue with the engines use.
Unity is license for you to make a game and for them to make money off the developers.
With this someone can create a visual novel and the developers of the unity engine would not get the money they are normally going to get from someone developing with their engine.
Most licenses have wording to prevent this issue. I haven't seen the unity license in some time so can't say for certain its current state but I doubt it allows this use.
My guess is this person will find themselves first getting a legal notice and if they don't pull the game down they will probably get the crap sued out of them.

 

[MZZ]

My comment was more directed at the misuse of the unity engine itself. I hadn't looked at the status of the content just thought it was an interesting point that paralleled the issue with the engines use.
Unity is license for you to make a game and for them to make money off the developers.
With this someone can create a visual novel and the developers of the unity engine would not get the money they are normally going to get from someone developing with their engine.
Most licenses have wording to prevent this issue. I haven't seen the unity license in some time so can't say for certain its current state but I doubt it allows this use.
My guess is this person will find themselves first getting a legal notice and if they don't pull the game down they will probably get the crap sued out of them.

yeah, the whole thing gets complicated fast. At first quick glance I did not find an explicit allowing or denying of this use case. (Unity: I use your tool to make a tool, that others may make money with. Daz: And I re-sell your assets within my game for real money. The latter probably has some general re-dustribution clause in the legalese)
Since the steam store page is down, legal shots may have been fired already...

 

[xuyuan]

额 我以为是包含全部MOD的 结果……不过能下载就不错了 虽然我还没有下载完成 经常中途断 传输失败……

 

[Diconica]

yeah, the whole thing gets complicated fast. At first quick glance I did not find an explicit allowing or denying of this use case. (Unity: I use your tool to make a tool, that others may make money with. Daz: And I re-sell your assets within my game for real money. The latter probably has some general re-dustribution clause in the legalese)
Since the steam store page is down, legal shots may have been fired already...

Just read it.

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It definitely is a violation for the software issue on several grounds.
The most obvious is that it creates a competitive product.
Unity sells tools to develop games. You can't create a tool to develop a game with it because that would take from their customer base. 2 Restrictions paragraph f.
I am glad I am not them!
Also this means you don't want to use this product to try and create a game and distribute it. You would end up facing potential legal issues over the copyright matterials and unlicense software distribution.

Just looked on steam seems the actual tool has been taken down just the content remains.

If the models are from DAZ 3D they aren't authorized either in 3D form to be distributed only in 2D. Most 3D art work license are that way unless it is placed in public domain.

 

[Tbone]

Goddamn, every consecutive screenshot gets wilder and wilder!

Seems like you can do a lot of customizations for your scenes!

 

[macadam]

Just read it.

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It definitely is a violation for the software issue on several grounds.
The most obvious is that it creates a competitive product.
Unity sells tools to develop games. You can't create a tool to develop a game with it because that would take from their customer base. 2 Restrictions paragraph f.
I am glad I am not them!
Also this means you don't want to use this product to try and create a game and distribute it. You would end up facing potential legal issues over the copyright matterials and unlicense software distribution.

Just looked on steam seems the actual tool has been taken down just the content remains.

If the models are from DAZ 3D they aren't authorized either in 3D form to be distributed only in 2D. Most 3D art work license are that way unless it is placed in public domain.

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[Diconica]

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You are correct the interactive license would cover games, that however isn't what the subject was about.
The point was none of those allow any form of transferable permissions for a third party to make use of the 3D model in itself. Especially in another product. (Non-transferable is listed for all their license under the general section)
You can redistribute your 2D images or even sell them for third party use. You can't however do that with the 3D models.

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Some companies or individuals will sell the rights to a product or have more extensive licenses as you pointed out more extensive licenses usually cost more a good bit more.

Sorry, if I wasn't clear in what I meant in the last post.

 

[DeMoS666]

OK, guys. But who of Patreon devs give a fuck about rights of DAZ. They almost all use pirate versions(stolen and distributed).
This Tool just give more options for this Devs. Exceptions of these who want to sell it in the end.(on steam or other sites). but again, they can buy it before selling it.

 

[macadam]

but again, they can buy it before selling it.

i, like many others devs, buy everything i put in my game. yeah, cost shit tons of money -_-. but i prefer that than getting into serious troubles with lawyers and shit and lost everything i put effort into.

but excuse me.. what ?

what is that sentence i quoted mean ?

it's not because you buy soething that mean you have right to re-sell it like this. there is some "moral" limit.
It's like buying EA games and sell them twice the price... i m pretty sure EA would sued you quickly... XD.
same goes for every game company and even music company and everything.

but american have that first sale doctrine things going on.. sadly it's not the case in many countries.

just saying. better safe than sorry.

like i mentionned before, the main problem here is that most of assets presented in the "tool" doesn't have extended license at all, so it's basically not even legal to use them like this. will it be a soft/tool or a game. that's alone is a down way.

but i dont care. That thing was shit anyway to be honest.

 

[Diconica]

i, like many others devs, buy everything i put in my game. yeah, cost shit tons of money -_-. but i prefer that than getting into serious troubles with lawyers and shit and lost everything i put effort into.

but excuse me.. what ?

what is that sentence i quoted mean ?

it's not because you buy soething that mean you have right to re-sell it like this. there is some "moral" limit.
It's like buying EA games and sell them twice the price... i m pretty sure EA would sued you quickly... XD.
same goes for every game company and even music company and everything.

but american have that first sale doctrine things going on.. sadly it's not the case in many countries.

just saying. better safe than sorry.

like i mentionned before, the main problem here is that most of assets presented in the "tool" doesn't have extended license at all, so it's basically not even legal to use them like this. will it be a soft/tool or a game. that's alone is a down way.

but i dont care. That thing was shit anyway to be honest.

There are limits to the first sale doctrine.

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.
You can see the section on why you can borrow a book but not share digital song as an example.

Probably a better way to look at it is any art you license under an agreement is licensed and the license needs to be follow or just don't license it. In short the license sits above the "First Sale" doctrine in such cases. It will generally sit above an laws unless the license in contradiction to a law that has a clause nullifying such licenses.

If you buy that product or any of the models off of steam you probably are going to have legal issues down the road even more so if you try to publish a game using the engine provided or content. The only reason I am telling people this is to save them future trouble and headaches. You don't need the DMCA crap this shit can cause because the developer was a fucking idiot!

 

[DeMoS666]

i, like many others devs, buy everything i put in my game. yeah, cost shit tons of money -_-. but i prefer that than getting into serious troubles with lawyers and shit and lost everything i put effort into.

but excuse me.. what ?

what is that sentence i quoted mean ?

it's not because you buy soething that mean you have right to re-sell it like this. there is some "moral" limit.
It's like buying EA games and sell them twice the price... i m pretty sure EA would sued you quickly... XD.
same goes for every game company and even music company and everything.

but american have that first sale doctrine things going on.. sadly it's not the case in many countries.

just saying. better safe than sorry.

like i mentionned before, the main problem here is that most of assets presented in the "tool" doesn't have extended license at all, so it's basically not even legal to use them like this. will it be a soft/tool or a game. that's alone is a down way.

but i dont care. That thing was shit anyway to be honest.

I mean buy it from DAZ not from this Dev i mean.
Normally if you do a game with this shitty game constructor of scenes, you are already can be sued if you want to sell it.
And i am pretty sure there will be some idiots which will try to do agame scenes with this Tool on Patreon.
I fully understand your point.
But where was sued Patreon Devs (firstly Patreon is a cheat way to copyright - you are not selling but, asking for donations), almost can't be sued this way, not only this but not every Dev have money to go to court, lawyers are fucking pricey. I don't remember original Developer of japanese game, which patreons Devs robbing like it is nothing(so much projects with the same models, i want just to puke already.
Don't forget not every Developer have money for lawyer. And for example how much this japanese Developer need time and money to sue hundreds of this Patreon developers.
And if this Patreons Devs see that can raise money and buy this assets(which was just stolen) from donations and raise even more money from steam or other sites.
Idea is almost no Devs from Patreon have bought any assets from the beginning, more to it any extended license.
And as you mentioned this project is too fishy to begin with. And i'am positive it is not first not last on market and pirate versions.
As you know there is also a loophole, if you are not selling it, you are almost clear. and donations also a loophole.

And as i told there is not too much moral in Patreon projects.

Just think about it. 1 project have more than 40 npc, you need to buy avery model pack, backgrounds. In total it will be huge buck. No any of Devs will invest in it. And on top, not every Dev on Patreon even raise enough money to buy it even after some time.

We right now have pretty big problems with copyrights right now. And as i mentioned before it is pretty much hard process(pricey) for law to punish pirates.
At some point some Devs even not trying to cheat RPG Maker projects. You launch game and see that RPG Maker was used is a pirate version.
I myself as i told already don't even want to download some projects and want to puke already when you see the same pirate models using in 3-4 games from 10. It's pretty much annoying.

But it's fully possible with Patreon right now. I hope there was check from Patreon, but it is futile to hope i think.

 

[charlieluc]

I downloaded the game but when I open file it asks for password.

 

[Diconica]

I mean buy it from DAZ not from this Dev i mean.
Normally if you do a game with this shitty game constructor of scenes, you are already can be sued if you want to sell it.
And i am pretty sure there will be some idiots which will try to do agame scenes with this Tool on Patreon.
I fully understand your point.
But where was sued Patreon Devs (firstly Patreon is a cheat way to copyright - you are not selling but, asking for donations), almost can't be sued this way, not only this but not every Dev have money to go to court, lawyers are fucking pricey. I don't remember original Developer of japanese game, which patreons Devs robbing like it is nothing(so much projects with the same models, i want just to puke already.
Don't forget not every Developer have money for lawyer. And for example how much this japanese Developer need time and money to sue hundreds of this Patreon developers.
And if this Patreons Devs see that can raise money and buy this assets(which was just stolen) from donations and raise even more money from steam or other sites.
Idea is almost no Devs from Patreon have bought any assets from the beginning, more to it any extended license.
And as you mentioned this project is too fishy to begin with. And i'am positive it is not first not last on market and pirate versions.
As you know there is also a loophole, if you are not selling it, you are almost clear. and donations also a loophole.

And as i told there is not too much moral in Patreon projects.

Just think about it. 1 project have more than 40 npc, you need to buy avery model pack, backgrounds. In total it will be huge buck. No any of Devs will invest in it. And on top, not every Dev on Patreon even raise enough money to buy it even after some time.

We right now have pretty big problems with copyrights right now. And as i mentioned before it is pretty much hard process(pricey) for law to punish pirates.
At some point some Devs even not trying to cheat RPG Maker projects. You launch game and see that RPG Maker was used is a pirate version.
I myself as i told already don't even want to download some projects and want to puke already when you see the same pirate models using in 3-4 games from 10. It's pretty much annoying.

But it's fully possible with Patreon right now. I hope there was check from Patreon, but it is futile to hope i think.

Don't expect Patreon donations to work all the time. In fact there have been a number of people taken down already on Patreon.
Think of Patreon donations about like an escorts donations/payment for time. It sounds good in theory but when it comes to court I haven't seen a Jury not convict for prostitution. Maybe a few haven't but I haven't personally seen any of those. Jury hears she received X dollars and the they and the client were had sex were about to have sex.... No other time was spent of any significance....
Jury just equates it as prostitution regardless how the woman or her attorney try to spin it.

I haven't found anything real definitive on the "fair use" of 3D models. There seems to be some contention there and people still trying to get a grasp on it better even in the courts. Take a 2D image you could modify the image or cut parts out then place it into another image add words to it or any number of things and you can claim you changed the context of it claim it as a transformative work. However, a 3D model placing it into any new scene or even a new pose could be technically considered transformative. Yet, the underlying work of the artist who created the model surely hadn't changed. So I suspect down the road when it comes to 3D models the transformation will need to be considered to be with the actual model and not what scene or pose it is in. That will be the most likely out come giving the rulings regard making models of vehicles and such so far.
About the only thing it seems they have gotten clear on these days is you are free to make a copy of a real world object of say a car like a toyota but because there isn't enough change in the work it can't be copyrighted.

 

[macadam]

Don't expect Patreon donations to work all the time. In fact there have been a number of people taken down already on Patreon.
Think of Patreon donations about like an escorts donations/payment for time. It sounds good in theory but when it comes to court I haven't seen a Jury not convict for prostitution. Maybe a few haven't but I haven't personally seen any of those. Jury hears she received X dollars and the they and the client were had sex were about to have sex.... No other time was spent of any significance....
Jury just equates it as prostitution regardless how the woman or her attorney try to spin it.

I haven't found anything real definitive on the "fair use" of 3D models. There seems to be some contention there and people still trying to get a grasp on it better even in the courts. Take a 2D image you could modify the image or cut parts out then place it into another image add words to it or any number of things and you can claim you changed the context of it claim it as a transformative work. However, a 3D model placing it into any new scene or even a new pose could be technically considered transformative. Yet, the underlying work of the artist who created the model surely hadn't changed. So I suspect down the road when it comes to 3D models the transformation will need to be considered to be with the actual model and not what scene or pose it is in. That will be the most likely out come giving the rulings regard making models of vehicles and such so far.
About the only thing it seems they have gotten clear on these days is you are free to make a copy of a real world object of say a car like a toyota but because there isn't enough change in the work it can't be copyrighted.

i think the problem with patreon, in case something goes wrong and up to court...

is that patreon IS by its whole concept, a platform to "help" creators.

if i may saysomething that may sound stupid but is actually logical.
if a dev like Wild Life or Summertime Saga get troubles and goes to court (This wont happen as they make their own stuff 100% , but let's pretend for that exemple.) . they would have rude time in court and will be in troubles. because they dont, require anymore "help" for their work.
It is pretty obvioust that the amount of cash gained by them (i can include WVM for exemple) is considered as more than enougth to allow theses creators to create their own business company and selling stuff properly without the need of "help" on their projects.

consider patreon like a spring, that is used to help creators to jump high, before they deploy their wings and fly by themself.
Patreon is NOT a selling website, nor a store. it's a platform to help creators in their projects. not help them to sell it. for that, there is others platform like steam or else.


just saying.

my exemple is shit, but it just an exemple so maybe people can understand better what patreon is.

 

[Diconica]

i think the problem with patreon, in case something goes wrong and up to court...

is that patreon IS by its whole concept, a platform to "help" creators.

if i may saysomething that may sound stupid but is actually logical.
if a dev like Wild Life or Summertime Saga get troubles and goes to court (This wont happen as they make their own stuff 100% , but let's pretend for that exemple.) . they would have rude time in court and will be in troubles. because they dont, require anymore "help" for their work.
It is pretty obvioust that the amount of cash gained by them (i can include WVM for exemple) is considered as more than enougth to allow theses creators to create their own business company and selling stuff properly without the need of "help" on their projects.

consider patreon like a spring, that is used to help creators to jump high, before they deploy their wings and fly by themself.
Patreon is NOT a selling website, nor a store. it's a platform to help creators in their projects. not help them to sell it. for that, there is others platform like steam or else.

just saying.

my exemple is shit, but it just an exemple so maybe people can understand better what patreon is.

I understand what you are saying.
Those developers who create their own content won't have really any legal trouble unless they step on someone else's copyright such as using a character and or world that to closely resembles another authors works.
A good example of this would be Sherlock Holmes. There are essentially to versions of this character owned by the same copyright holder. One of the copyrights has ran out and you could create a character similar to it the other has different aspects such as what family is alive and so on. So if you made a story that involved a Sherlock Holmes that was like the character the copyright ran out on you would be fine. If you made one to similar to the second Character you would end up in court.

Spoiler: Video Sherlock Holmes law suit

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That said however if you make use of other people's artwork or violate the license as the software here did you aren't going to find any real protection if they decide to come after you. It doesn't matter so much the money is a donation as that you wouldn't be receiving the money if you were not providing the product so there is a direct correlation the product being provided and the money being received.

Another example of that was downloading services. For example many people at one point didn't have high speed internet. So they would pay people to download what they wanted and provide them with a CD. The people doing this claimed they were only selling the service not the product. It didn't help them any either. That's the same point I was trying to make with the escorts receiving money.

In truth it doesn't take a lot to learn what to do and not do. There is a real basic course on the US governments patent site regarding some of this. There are a number of youtube channels like the one above that deal in patent and copyright law stuff.
MIT has open course ware regarding it.

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Every developer should familiarize themselves with the basics of those laws. Two reasons to keep out of trouble and to tell them how to protect their own work. Yes, I get the irony of saying that on this site.

 

[FookU2]

Too bad I can't download 12gb lol