VN Ren'Py A Perfect Marriage [v0.7.5b] [Mr Palmer]

[GingerSweetGirl]

______________________________________++++++++++++++++++_______________________________________

To me the issue is clear. These slow burn corruption games are too ambitious and narratively complex for a single-person dev. They get stuck spinning their wheels instead of having fun. Daz is a difficult program, it can be rewarding or it can be a pain in the butt. You need to be enjoying what you’re creating, and I think a lot of devs get into trouble because the narrative requires lots of work on boring (to create) establishing scenes. Instead of making the scenes they really want to, devs get stuck creating endless coffee shop scenes with characters having conversations. In these scenes there may be stolen glances or the infamous fabric touching, but not much else. Actually, imagine that making these games were profitable that it's actually your job. Serious... that a developer can spend 8 hours a day at it 5 days a week working on their project. From what I understand it's just Mr. Palmer and an artist. So what money is being made is being split... and it's really not a lot of money.

As games get into Act II, the expectations for sexy scenes increase. But for slow corruption games that seems to trigger a disproportionate number of set-up scenes. Can’t cut right to the chase, now there needs to be a scene or two before the sexy scene in order to justify why the sexy scene can happen. This results in months of developing conversation scenes at restaurants or bars. It’s a recipe for becoming burnt out. Story writing is surprisingly difficult. Besides the obvious of creating a good plot, the story takes on a life of its own. Timing, narration, development, evolution dictate how the story unfolds. Say by the second update Anna was banging everyone but David, what then? Everyone wants to see Anna's journey and enjoy the rising tension--people get personally invested in good characters.

Fundamentally I think the problems are strict linear storytelling, and serialized continuity. Event C can’t happen until Event B is finished, and we can’t even talk about Event B until Event A is completed. All of a sudden the game’s development is rigged and boring. In military terms it is called setting the battlefield... in the writers' world it's call progression

devs need to lighten up and have more fun. You can avoid being a fuckfest without being so joyless that the game isn’t entertaining.

Being a dev is INCREDIBLY difficult. I will never argue differently. Aside from the biggest devs like Dr Pink Cake, I have no expectation of a dev devoting the equivalent effort of a full-time job to their game. This stuff is just a hobby, and if they can make some extra money doing it I think that's great! I don't begrudge any dev who needs to take time off, or who gets sick. Palmer seems like a stand up person, so I really, REALLY, don't want to come across as criticizing him personally.

But I do find the meta conversation around the development of slow-burn games to be fascinating. I think there's been a lot of evidence over the last 5+ years about what works and what doesn't; and I think a lot of that evidence has been ignored. Writing is incredibly difficult, I agree with you. But I feel that many devs can become prisoners of their own narrative. The slow corruption genre relies on steady the progression, and that's totally fine (I think everyone here knows what to expect at this point). The approach from many devs is a series of events that gradually escalate the tension, and that seems like a good idea. But in practice I think we find that it can result in a game that bogs down. Things can begin to feel tedious from the player's perspective (and I assume the dev's perspective as well).

No one is asking a slow corruption game to have wild sexcapades in episode 2, but after two and a half years we should be further along. If it was just APM that was progressing slowly it wouldn't be a big deal, but this is a repeating trend in the genre. How many slow corruption games just seem to stall out? It's something that can't be denied at this point.

And, for full disclosure, I/we have been working on our own game for over a year and a half. I mention this only because the process of doing so has given me great appreciation for the work that goes into making a successful game. It has really changed my outlook on devs and made me less prone to harsh judgement. Palmer has done a really good job by and large with this game and he should be proud. I do think it's worth looking at APM and other games like it and asking ourselves what we can do differently because I worry the audience is getting exhausted from being burned by too many games that never get completed.

 

[L0b0ts]

Considering this game is in part time development it has been getting released at about the same time as full time developers, so it's delayed a bit. So what?

 

[zaqwsxcder]

Abandoned

 

[Bugs Bunny :paranoid]

Palmer was doing even better than some old Devs of this genre and I'm talking about games that are five/six years old I don't believe it will be abandoned soon he will come back.

 

[Adhdclassic]

I really like the character Jessica in this game. Does anyone know other games that feature this character? Thanks!

Whose Jessica

 

[DarthSpitz717]

Being a dev is INCREDIBLY difficult. I will never argue differently. Aside from the biggest devs like Dr Pink Cake, I have no expectation of a dev devoting the equivalent effort of a full-time job to their game. This stuff is just a hobby, and if they can make some extra money doing it I think that's great! I don't begrudge any dev who needs to take time off, or who gets sick. Palmer seems like a stand up person, so I really, REALLY, don't want to come across as criticizing him personally.

But I do find the meta conversation around the development of slow-burn games to be fascinating. I think there's been a lot of evidence over the last 5+ years about what works and what doesn't; and I think a lot of that evidence has been ignored. Writing is incredibly difficult, I agree with you. But I feel that many devs can become prisoners of their own narrative. The slow corruption genre relies on steady the progression, and that's totally fine (I think everyone here knows what to expect at this point). The approach from many devs is a series of events that gradually escalate the tension, and that seems like a good idea. But in practice I think we find that it can result in a game that bogs down. Things can begin to feel tedious from the player's perspective (and I assume the dev's perspective as well).

No one is asking a slow corruption game to have wild sexcapades in episode 2, but after two and a half years we should be further along. If it was just APM that was progressing slowly it wouldn't be a big deal, but this is a repeating trend in the genre. How many slow corruption games just seem to stall out? It's something that can't be denied at this point.

And, for full disclosure, I/we have been working on our own game for over a year and a half. I mention this only because the process of doing so has given me great appreciation for the work that goes into making a successful game. It has really changed my outlook on devs and made me less prone to harsh judgement. Palmer has done a really good job by and large with this game and he should be proud. I do think it's worth looking at APM and other games like it and asking ourselves what we can do differently because I worry the audience is getting exhausted from being burned by too many games that never get completed.

___________________________________+++++++++++++++++++________________________________________

Being a dev is INCREDIBLY difficult. I will never argue differently. Aside from the biggest devs like Dr Pink Cake, I have no expectation of a dev devoting the equivalent effort of a full-time job to their game. This stuff is just a hobby, and if they can make some extra money doing it I think that's great! I don't begrudge any dev who needs to take time off, or who gets sick. Palmer seems like a stand-up person, so I really, REALLY, don't want to come across as criticizing him personally. Besides one hurricane I'd say yes real life does get in the way. Especially if its work related from job that has complications.

But I do find the meta conversation around the development of slow-burn games to be fascinating. I think there's been a lot of evidence over the last 5+ years about what works and what doesn't; and I think a lot of that evidence has been ignored. Writing is incredibly difficult, I agree with you. But I feel that many devs can become prisoners of their own narrative. The slow corruption genre relies on steady the progression, and that's totally fine (I think everyone here knows what to expect at this point). The approach from many devs is a series of events that gradually escalate the tension, and that seems like a good idea. But in practice I think we find that it can result in a game that bogs down. Things can begin to feel tedious from the player's perspective (and I assume the dev's perspective as well). You are without saying his name saying it... L&P developer of "AWAM" as a prime example that supports your statement. And yes, you are 100% spot on. I can blanketly say its "education" or lack thereof that stories flounder. On one hand a developer doesn't want things to happen too fast, but the story has progressed to the point where it should--worst, everyone can see it for what it is, slow burn for the sake of slow burn. In AMP, Mr. Palmer has to get us the audience from point A to point Z and do so in a natural progression that makes sense; plus Mr. Palmer has the added disadvantage of some gamers want to skip several points-- so it becomes a matter of time, timing, story evolution that still maintains the quality of the story but doesn't move too slow for peoples tastes.

It is evident Mr. Palmer has writing skills, be it from a formal education or just natural ability. The problem with a lot of developers they don't or can't get help from editors and writers who can fix a games storyline and plot.

No one is asking a slow corruption game to have wild sexcapades in episode 2, but after two and a half years we should be further along. If it was just APM that was progressing slowly it wouldn't be a big deal, but this is a repeating trend in the genre. How many slow corruption games just seem to stall out? It's something that can't be denied at this point. I'd have to disagree on one key point. Yes, it's been 2.5 years, but its only 2.5 years based on how many updates? Now if we were on update number 50 and it's just now getting good, there is certainly a problem. The forementioned "AWAM" I think started in 2017! Now this thread is about Mr. Palmer and AMP, so I will not go on and on about that spectacular failure. But it's a good compare and contrast in the sense AMP is succeeding.

And, for full disclosure, I/we have been working on our own game for over a year and a half. I mention this only because the process of doing so has given me great appreciation for the work that goes into making a successful game. It has really changed my outlook on devs and made me less prone to harsh judgement. Palmer has done a really good job by and large with this game and he should be proud. I do think it's worth looking at APM and other games like it and asking ourselves what we can do differently because I worry the audience is getting exhausted from being burned by too many games that never get I'm writing an entire story for a VN currently to assist a rather good artist. Where I was a technical consultant on one other for a world build... and a founder of another. It's the coding and the renders that eat a lot of time. Writing for me is easy... coding... rendering, not so much

 

[AlfredBundy4]

Is there "some kind" dev curse or something because when ever a game gets mildly popular the dev's life goes haywire. Especially happens to game creators who are making games which contain slow burn, FMC, and NTR (optional).

People have lives and things happen...but...I don't think it's a coincidence that so many devs start strong and then completely change a little bit into their first successful project.

I tend to believe a dev that actually gives a reason like he did here and pauses payments on their patreon but far too many change for a reason that rhymes with MONEY. Oh, oops...lol.

It's usually money. They see a payday and immediately try to stretch the length of time that they can collect money on the project as well as start to get lazy due to the money.
Often, for the first time in their lives they're getting what is essentially unchecked money. No hardline job, boss and labor to do to get it. For the first time in their lives if they want to work today or take a week off nobody knows and they still get paid. That's a STRONG inventive to turn lazy. Also, some start to make much more money under that arraignment than they did or could at a "normal" job.

Blind Patreon payments breed laziness. It would be hard to pull in enough money to live on in that system and maintain the same work ethic and plan that you had when you started. Most turn into shitbags.

Pausing payments helps me give a dev a bit more benefit of the doubt and, yes, they are also people with lives. They don't just make VN porn, lol. People get sick, things break, etc. The least they can do is pause payments and this dev did.

 

[secretcador]

not all married women is kurdashian life
you want model and you look to anna developer not make chang from original model he take as its
but other one make chang skin wide face lips chang eyes
if you see original model its young also
see this i use his model she young women you see how he make different

i take 10 min to recreate anna character
but this artist i cant figure out what chang muscle mode he chang to get this one
View attachment 4606467 View attachment 4606476

ap he take model without Chang so not take time to chose skin or age character
this what make other artist different
am talk about reality
you live in tv show you want wife body 18 y old
and not talk me like its personally about me i can talk back to you same but its child talk grow up

With that short hair, she looks like a dude. That's preference.

 

[Scotty Doesn't Know]

People have lives and things happen...but...I don't think it's a coincidence that so many devs start strong and then completely change a little bit into their first successful project.

I tend to believe a dev that actually gives a reason like he did here and pauses payments on their patreon but far too many change for a reason that rhymes with MONEY. Oh, oops...lol.

It's usually money. They see a payday and immediately try to stretch the length of time that they can collect money on the project as well as start to get lazy due to the money.
Often, for the first time in their lives they're getting what is essentially unchecked money. No hardline job, boss and labor to do to get it. For the first time in their lives if they want to work today or take a week off nobody knows and they still get paid. That's a STRONG inventive to turn lazy. Also, some start to make much more money under that arraignment than they did or could at a "normal" job.

Blind Patreon payments breed laziness. It would be hard to pull in enough money to live on in that system and maintain the same work ethic and plan that you had when you started. Most turn into shitbags.

Pausing payments helps me give a dev a bit more benefit of the doubt and, yes, they are also people with lives. They don't just make VN porn, lol. People get sick, things break, etc. The least they can do is pause payments and this dev did.

I always say what you have about devs.
Also congrats on 4 touchdowns in a single game! Yes it is a good thing that Palmer is pausing payments when he knows he won't be able to work on the game. Unlike most others, who sometimes even let a year go by with no updates or work shown, while taking others money.

The payment system for Patreon is bad for followers but great for devs!
Devs get their payment but do not have any responsibility to do the work... They can promise an update in 2 months but delay it by weeks or even months and have no consequences by simply telling a fake sob story about their family or whatever. If it was in a real job, can you imagine handing in your work over a month past when its due, while still getting paid top dollar... Anyone would be fired on the spot for doing that!

We've seen this pattern happen over many years for all the higher end devs. They start out strong with regular updates every 2-3 months or so. Long play time, quality writing. After they have built up a bigger following and patreon payments, they get lazy and realize they don't need to work as hard. Updates take longer, game play time is shorter and writing gets cliched. I can understand extra time needed for branching storylines but most devs have fake choices which might lead to maybe one extra scene or a few lines of different dialogue per update. Its sad that devs aren't held accountable to do their work or finish on time. Also sad that many followers will still pay blindly and believe all the lies that devs put out.

 

[IHATESlowburnBluBallgames]

People have lives and things happen...but...I don't think it's a coincidence that so many devs start strong and then completely change a little bit into their first successful project.

I tend to believe a dev that actually gives a reason like he did here and pauses payments on their patreon but far too many change for a reason that rhymes with MONEY. Oh, oops...lol.

It's usually money. They see a payday and immediately try to stretch the length of time that they can collect money on the project as well as start to get lazy due to the money.
Often, for the first time in their lives they're getting what is essentially unchecked money. No hardline job, boss and labor to do to get it. For the first time in their lives if they want to work today or take a week off nobody knows and they still get paid. That's a STRONG inventive to turn lazy. Also, some start to make much more money under that arraignment than they did or could at a "normal" job.

Blind Patreon payments breed laziness. It would be hard to pull in enough money to live on in that system and maintain the same work ethic and plan that you had when you started. Most turn into shitbags.

Pausing payments helps me give a dev a bit more benefit of the doubt and, yes, they are also people with lives. They don't just make VN porn, lol. People get sick, things break, etc. The least they can do is pause payments and this dev did.

This is why Patreon sucks and should be replaced by Steam. Steam is for us “the players”not the devs. We only make a one time payment to the game on Steam and then we get every update and it doesn’t matter how long the wait is, when it gets dropped you get it on day 1, no more stupid tiers having to wait weeks or more for yours.

 

[jamdan]

We've seen this pattern happen over many years for all the higher end devs. They start out strong with regular updates every 2-3 months or so. Long play time, quality writing. After they have built up a bigger following and patreon payments, they get lazy and realize they don't need to work as hard. Updates take longer, game play time is shorter and writing gets cliched. I can understand extra time needed for branching storylines but most devs have fake choices which might lead to maybe one extra scene or a few lines of different dialogue per update. Its sad that devs aren't held accountable to do their work or finish on time. Also sad that many followers will still pay blindly and believe all the lies that devs put out.

Not saying this doesn't happen. But most of the time things slow down not because the devs get "lazy". But because the game complexity grows the longer it goes on for. And more complexity = harder to make = slower updates.

This is only compounded by the fact that the majority (if not almost all) of devs make up their stories as they go. Especially if those stories are meant to be serious and not just porn. The amount of work/time needed to write something that makes sense, let alone render, can get out of hand pretty fast.

 

[Sadowdark]

Not saying this doesn't happen. But most of the time things slow down not because the devs get "lazy". But because the game complexity grows the longer it goes on for. And more complexity = harder to make = slower updates.

This is only compounded by the fact that the majority (if not almost all) of devs make up their stories as they go. Especially if those stories are meant to be serious and not just porn. The amount of work/time needed to write something that makes sense, let alone render, can get out of hand pretty fast.

But complexity in games is cool and interesting and doesn't get boring as much as kinetic games. But it also has its drawbacks because the more choices the longer you wait for an update.

 

[jamdan]

But complexity in games is cool and interesting and doesn't get boring as much as kinetic games. But it also has its drawbacks because the more choices the longer you wait for an update.

Even kinetic games can be complex and interesting. You may not have branching choices, but you do have context of what happened previously that informs what will happen in the present. This is basically how books are made. Totally kinetic, but also complex and interesting stories.

A famous bit of writing advice (from, if I recall, Pixar writers) is the difference between "and then" and "therefore".

This basically boils down to linking the past context/scenes and current context/scenes together. "And then" events may not have anything to do with each other. But "therefore" events have to, because they directly interact with each other. Basically, cause and effect.

Now try to apply that same cause and effect to branching AVN's, and it's compounded in difficulty. I think it's particularly difficult in corruption/slow burn games. Because you more or less have to advance things at a similar pace, or else you'll end up having the MC at various stages with various different characters which may break the games logic. This is basically what ended up derailing AWAM.

 

[Sadowdark]

Even kinetic games can be complex and interesting. You may not have branching choices, but you do have context of what happened previously that informs what will happen in the present. This is basically how books are made. Totally kinetic, but also complex and interesting stories.

A famous bit of writing advice (from, if I recall, Pixar writers) is the difference between "and then" and "therefore".

This basically boils down to linking the past context/scenes and current context/scenes together. "And then" events may not have anything to do with each other. But "therefore" events have to, because they directly interact with each other. Basically, cause and effect.

Now try to apply that same cause and effect to branching AVN's, and it's compounded in difficulty. I think it's particularly difficult in corruption/slow burn games. Because you more or less have to advance things at a similar pace, or else you'll end up having the MC at various stages with various different characters which may break the games logic. This is basically what ended up derailing AWAM.

But the problem with AWAM is there are too many random characters and the main characters have to wait years to get something. .

 

[sslovoe]

This is why Patreon sucks and should be replaced by Steam. Steam is for us “the players”not the devs. We only make a one time payment to the game on Steam and then we get every update and it doesn’t matter how long the wait is, when it gets dropped you get it on day 1, no more stupid tiers having to wait weeks or more for yours.

this method will stop developer make exxcuse and tell story about life
and focus to his game and get what deserve when hard work get not think how milk game by issue delay excuse even if he ready to release he wait more week for new month pay

 

[Eve de Rothchild]

This is why Patreon sucks and should be replaced by Steam. Steam is for us “the players”not the devs. We only make a one time payment to the game on Steam and then we get every update and it doesn’t matter how long the wait is, when it gets dropped you get it on day 1, no more stupid tiers having to wait weeks or more for yours.

yes patreon sucks, but steam follow the same rules, and also you don't own the digital copy of the games anymore like before 2017 where you would be able to play the games offiline and whitout ever opening steam.

Btw, its like you don't know paradox and warhammr studios or recent AAA games, almost all these games come out unfinished and the devs launched DLC with features that should be in the base game, just to name a few games like CK3(crusader kings 3), Stellaris, must Ubisoft games etc.

Gog is better now in these terms, also puting every game in one plataform is a bad idea.

 

[Eve de Rothchild]

not all married women is kurdashian life
you want model and you look to anna developer not make chang from original model he take as its
but other one make chang skin wide face lips chang eyes
if you see original model its young also
see this i use his model she young women you see how he make different

i take 10 min to recreate anna character
but this artist i cant figure out what chang muscle mode he chang to get this one
View attachment 4606467 View attachment 4606476

ap he take model without Chang so not take time to chose skin or age character
this what make other artist different
am talk about reality
you live in tv show you want wife body 18 y old
and not talk me like its personally about me i can talk back to you same but its child talk grow up

And this game is about a fictional novel and not the real world you live in, i could waste my time searching for allot of milfs who still beautiful to prove my point to a person who want "reality" in fictional games and when something is you way and people say its bad, i guess you would call then "bigots" or say that "character doenst exist, why botter?"

Anyway, why don't you create you own game then?

No one issaying you can't make you oww game withthe models and preferences XD

 

[sslovoe]

And this game is about a fictional novel and not the real world you live in, i could waste my time searching for allot of milfs who still beautiful to prove my point to a person who want "reality" in fictional games and when something is you way and people say its bad, i guess you would call then "bigots" or say that "character doenst exist, why botter?"

Anyway, why don't you create you own game then?

No one issaying you can't make you oww game withthe models and preferences XD

you not get the point
even its fiction story
but the developer not make random wife like other game show you young wife but not give you any sign of age many year marrige or kid
here he make history of wife many year and have child and brestfeed she worker women graduate collage law so he have to give fan something believable for her look
anna here is young wife you cant give her age more than 20

 

[Kaitol]

This is why Patreon sucks and should be replaced by Steam. Steam is for us “the players”not the devs. We only make a one time payment to the game on Steam and then we get every update and it doesn’t matter how long the wait is, when it gets dropped you get it on day 1, no more stupid tiers having to wait weeks or more for yours.

The entire point of Patreon is letting artists create the work they want without being constrained by needing to force releases out to pay bills and work a 9-5. It's not for buying products it's for supporting creatives you like. If you want to know what would happen if everyone abandoned Patreon for Steam, well, just look at all the cheap cashgrab slop on Steam. Almost all the halfway decent western porn games on steam started as Patreon games.

You can also see this by looking at DLsite or similar places. Tons of unfinished slop or halfway promising games forced out because the devs need the money to live and then immediately abandoned for the next project because people need the cash now, not in several more years when the game is actually finished. Most landlords won't wait several years for you to make a porn game to maybe be able to pay them rent. People aren't going to work themselves to the bone to make porn games for you for a single payment of like $5-12 when a significant portion of the already very small playerbase will just pirate it.

 

[metagrossrj]

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Spring break time, after Christmas time and New Years time.
Life is hectic. Next month, he will need to take some time off to celebrate Easter.