VN Ren'Py A Wife and Mother [v0.205] [Lust & Passion]

[Kodek]

I agree.

I am concerned at what Alley Cat revealed that L&P would change his intended storyline due to a vociferous minority. I am concerned because if he has done that once already then he might be pushed into doing it again in the future. And thus risking spoiling the storyline that he initially intended.

But like yourself, actually getting rid of the twist is a good thing in my opinion. I agree it was a stupid storypoint and the game/VN becomes more believable again with it having been removed.

I mostly think that a dev has to deal with his mistakes. If he puts something in the game and actually reveals the plot line, than he should have gone throught with it, bad or good it was still part of Dylan's development. Unless the big majority of the fans complain about the said plot line, which wasn't the case with the Twist.

Now, if he did it once, he must do it twice, thrice and a lot more. Everytime a part of fans seems dissatisfied with something they will use this as an argument. But what is done is done, he lost a lot of his credibity as an artist and creator when he removed the Twist.

 

[Alley_Cat]

I have no problems with Sam and Ellie getting together in the long term. Just would like to see each of them separately have their way with Sophia first.

But also I don't remember any warmth or them liking each other being expressed by either of them

Since the only real interaction between the two is at the Turner mansion, there isn't really much to actually see. And since Ellie doesn't date younger guys (so Dylan and Sam), she shoots him down rather quickly.

But here are the conversations, between Sophia and Ellie first on day 14, and then later between Sophia and Sam on day 18

Spoiler

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I agree.

I am concerned at what Alley Cat revealed that L&P would change his intended storyline due to a vociferous minority. I am concerned because if he has done that once already then he might be pushed into doing it again in the future. And thus risking spoiling the storyline that he initially intended.

But like yourself, actually getting rid of the twist is a good thing in my opinion. I agree it was a stupid storypoint and the game/VN becomes more believable again with it having been removed.

Apparently it's been more than once, but removing the Twist is the clearest and most open example. I haven't seen actual evidence of it, but the talk is that even the bonus storyline was to appease Dylan fans to at the very least explain why Ellie dislikes Dylan so much.

 

[cerebotio2]

When will the next teaser come out?

 

[Alley_Cat]

When will the next teaser come out?

Presumably after he starts the next update, when we see the Degenerate Perverts Newsletter hit 0%. Created Scenes and Rendered Scenes would also need to hit 5% for there to even be a teaser for L&P to show us

 

[ancienregimele]

I mostly think that a dev has to deal with his mistakes. If he puts something in the game and actually reveals the plot line, than he should have gone throught with it, bad or good it was still part of Dylan's development. Unless the big majority of the fans complain about the said plot line, which wasn't the case with the Twist.

Now, if he did it once, he must do it twice, thrice and a lot more. Everytime a part of fans seems dissatisfied with something they will use this as an argument. But what is done is done, he lost a lot of his credibity as an artist and creator when he removed the Twist.

This could quite possibly be the start of the rot that I've witnessed in other games of this genre. Usually it can be associated with having polls on the pay-site. No great or good author that I'm aware of punctuated their writing with opinion polls. Admittedly they weren't writng games & feed-back is important but are polls the way to go? We musn't forget, however, that Bennett was curtailed before the (IMO insidious) promotion of Dylan as a second MC, or any mention of the infamous twist.
Constructive criticism & advice of the kind provided by an Editor, or some other associate would be of benefit to a project this size. Advice doesn't have to be followed, so creative freedom is still strong. L&P can write well on occasion but all he has for 'advice' are his patrons & us, ie all with some kind of vested interest. There needs to be independent input & this time it's not too late.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

I mostly think that a dev has to deal with his mistakes. If he puts something in the game and actually reveals the plot line, than he should have gone throught with it, bad or good it was still part of Dylan's development. Unless the big majority of the fans complain about the said plot line, which wasn't the case with the Twist.

Now, if he did it once, he must do it twice, thrice and a lot more. Everytime a part of fans seems dissatisfied with something they will use this as an argument. But what is done is done, he lost a lot of his credibity as an artist and creator when he removed the Twist.

He lost credibility by including that twist, and by removing it he regained it. He shifted a character, a main character as well, in a radically ridiculous direction that damaged them. Having Dylan fake a blackmail with a scumbag like Aiden was like letting a rabid dog off its leash. It was the dumbest fucking thing he could have done because seriously, how was this the best way to make his Mom feel better about herself? How does making her dress more sexy by making her think her son will be physically harmed if she doesn't comply do her any good?

People want to see Dylan and Sophia get closer and eventually sexual with each other but to do so in a good way, much like how Sophia and Ellie are getting sexually closer in a good way. Having this shadow hanging over Dylan would have tainted everything he did on the other path and it's an important main relationship. Honestly, when that happened in the 0.100 update, it felt like this:

 

[Poser_Voyeur]

(snip)

And on her being a bitch, while I was mocked for doing it, I like to compare Ellie to Santana from Glee. In that Santana was also a cheerleader, and was a downright bitch to other characters and called them out when they were fooling themselves. But to characters like Brittney who were honest to themselves and others, Santana was a loyal friend.

And yeah, it's not ignoring her faults that I like Ellie, but because I saw potential and am starting to see character growth. And naked. I'll admit part of the reason I don't hesitate in sending Dylan to boarding school is so I can see more naked Ellie.

Santana, Britney, Quinn. Those Cheerios were hot. Loved that show.

If another TV show or game mentions cheerleaders, I will most likely think back to the Cheerios as to what I imagine cheerleaders are like.

 

[gamecore]

MAC VERSION ANYONE PLZ

 

[Kodek]

He lost credibility by including that twist, and by removing it he regained it. He shifted a character, a main character as well, in a radically ridiculous direction that damaged them. Having Dylan fake a blackmail with a scumbag like Aiden was like letting a rabid dog off its leash. It was the dumbest fucking thing he could have done because seriously, how was this the best way to make his Mom feel better about herself? How does making her dress more sexy by making her think her son will be physically harmed if she doesn't comply do her any good?

People want to see Dylan and Sophia get closer and eventually sexual with each other but to do so in a good way, much like how Sophia and Ellie are getting sexually closer in a good way. Having this shadow hanging over Dylan would have tainted everything he did on the other path and it's an important main relationship. Honestly, when that happened in the 0.100 update, it felt like this:

I would agree with you if, and only if, the majority of the fans complained about the Twist. Once again, it wasn't the case. So saying that 'people want to see another thing' is your opinion and i can respect it, as you are only another fan like me.

But a developer moddifying things that were already in the game because some fans disliked how their favorite character was being painted? That's not a sigh of maturity and open the way for other fans complain about other things and if he don't give in to them as he did to Dylan's fans, he will start losing support. That's plainly favoritism and bad decisions that he didn't thought through. They don't go well for a dev in the long run.

I can give and i'm sure you can think of a lot of examples of even worse plotlines/endings in other good and big games that weren't removed by the dev even if the fans disliked. That's how they keep credibity, they accept that they made a mistake and learn from it, making the next updates/games better. What L&P did was try to make the problem disappear as if it wasn't there to begin with.

And well, that's only my opinion as a fan, you don't need to agree with me. We can agree to disagree and follow our lives as this won't change the fact that we both will continue playing the game... probably.

 

[Alley_Cat]

I would agree with you if, and only if, the majority of the fans complained about the Twist. Once again, it wasn't the case. So saying that 'people didn't want to see it' is your opinion and i can respect it, as you are only another fan like me.

But a developer moddifying things that were already in the game because some fans disliked how their favorite character was being painted? That's not a sigh of maturity and open the way for other fans complain about other things and if he don't give in to them as he did to Dylan's fans, he will start losing support. That's plainly favoritism and bad decisions that he didn't thought through. They don't go well for a dev in the long run.

I can give and i'm sure you can think of a lot of examples of even worse plotlines/endings in other good and big games that weren't removed by the dev even if the fans disliked. That's how they keep credibity, they assume that they made a mistake and learn from in the next updates/games. What L&P did was try to make the problem disappear as if it wasn't there to begin with.

And well, that's only my opinion as a fan, you don't need to agree with me. We can agree to disagree and follow our lives as this won't change the fact that we both will continue playing the game... probably.

That's what I don't get about the removal of the Twist. If there was a poll and the majority of fans didn't like it, at least L&P could claim he had a mandate to remove it. Even moreso since it would have been more than just Dylan fans that would have complained about it in order to achieve a simple majority. But it appears to be a snap decision made a few days after the release with no time given for even patrons on lower tiers to have played the update.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

It's a fine line. If something in a game is badly broken, or people raise valid complaints, a dev is wise to considering the feedback and make changes. This is especially true if they view the offending issue as minor. L&P has said that he never considered the twist a big deal, so removing it wasn't a big deal.

But you certainly don't want a game and story dictated by the fans. That would damage the integrity of the narrative and feel like a cheap cop-out.

Edit- There's also the issue that a high percentage of players never even saw the twist. That makes it both better and worse, because some portion of the fans weren't even aware of it and can't accurately give feedback.

 

[Bill_Buttlicker]

It's a fine line. If something in a game is badly broken, or people raise valid complaints, a dev is wise to considering the feedback and make changes. This is especially true if they view the offending issue as minor. L&P has said that he never considered the twist a big deal, so removing it wasn't a big deal.

But you certainly don't want a game and story dictated by the fans. That would damage the integrity of the narrative and feel like a cheap cop-out.

Edit- There's also the issue that a high percentage of players never even saw the twist. That makes it both better and worse, because some portion of the fans weren't even aware of it and can't accurately give feedback.

It was news to me. I never even realized what Dylan had done until Old Dog had mentioned something about him being sent to boarding school if you didn't go along with Aiden and Dylan telling Sophia what he did. I thought it was a nice surprise in the story and didn't think it was that bad as others had made it.

 

[Kodek]

It's a fine line. If something in a game is badly broken, or people raise valid complaints, a dev is wise to considering the feedback and make changes. This is especially true if they view the offending issue as minor. L&P has said that he never considered the twist a big deal, so removing it wasn't a big deal.

But you certainly don't want a game and story dictated by the fans. That would damage the integrity of the narrative and feel like a cheap cop-out.

Edit- There's also the issue that a high percentage of players never even saw the twist. That makes it both better and worse, because some portion of the fans weren't even aware of it and can't accurately give feedback.

The fact that it was so minor makes the bad decision and favoritism even more blatant. As a minor thing, he could cover it with other events later on or maybe, even better, just wait until all of your fans can give an opinion and just be done with the thing.

I, myself, didn't know about the Twist until reading this thread and asking about it after wards.

 

[Alley_Cat]

It's a fine line. If something in a game is badly broken, or people raise valid complaints, a dev is wise to considering the feedback and make changes. This is especially true if they view the offending issue as minor. L&P has said that he never considered the twist a big deal, so removing it wasn't a big deal.

But you certainly don't want a game and story dictated by the fans. That would damage the integrity of the narrative and feel like a cheap cop-out.

Edit- There's also the issue that a high percentage of players never even saw the twist. That makes it both better and worse, because some portion of the fans weren't even aware of it and can't accurately give feedback.

But if the Twist was never a big deal, then there's no reason to remove it. So not only has he made more work for himself unnecessarily, but made it into a "cheap cop-out" as you put it.

 

[LP83]

Spoiler: My always modest comments: v0.115

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[GingerSweetGirl]

But if the Twist was never a big deal, then there's no reason to remove it. So not only has he made more work for himself unnecessarily, but made it into a "cheap cop-out" as you put it.

I hear ya, it's a double edge sword. I'm pretty neutral on Dylan, I don't care one way or another, but I thought it was a surprisingly dark twist for the character. The fact that L&P didn't see it as a big deal surprises me because it really re-contextualizes Dylan.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

That's what I don't get about the removal of the Twist. If there was a poll and the majority of fans didn't like it, at least L&P could claim he had a mandate to remove it. Even moreso since it would have been more than just Dylan fans that would have complained about it in order to achieve a simple majority. But it appears to be a snap decision made a few days after the release with no time given for even patrons on lower tiers to have played the update.

Well maybe that's the point; they took it out so soon in order to avoid it becoming a bigger deal since it was already proving controversial and could have gotten worse

It was news to me. I never even realized what Dylan had done until Old Dog had mentioned something about him being sent to boarding school if you didn't go along with Aiden and Dylan telling Sophia what he did. I thought it was a nice surprise in the story and didn't think it was that bad as others had made it.

Him being sent to boarding school was never the problem, it's what Dylan revealed about his role in the blackmail that was the problem.

The fact that it was so minor makes the bad decision and favoritism even more blatant. As a minor thing, he could cover it with other events later on or maybe, even better, just wait until all of your fans can give an opinion and just be done with the thing.

I, myself, didn't know about the Twist until reading this thread and asking about it after wards.

Except that it wasn't minor, it was a major shift for both Dylan's character and the whole blackmail plotline. It wasn't malicious from Dylan, sure, but it was a dumb and stupid thing to have him do for something which he could have easily done himself through other more gentle means, means that we already saw him using.

He thought his Mom needed a confidence boost, and his plan was to get the school thug to blackmail her to get her to dress more sexy or else he'd beat up her son? Meanwhile, Dylan's showering her with compliments, opening up to her about his adolescent growing pains, and even making her breakfast in bed. He's doing things that are making her feel better and things that are bringing them closer together, he didn't need Aiden's help for that.

All this fake blackmail thing did was was taint this character for those who didn't want to send him to boarding school because they wanted to keep advancing towards the sexual relationship. For all intents and purposes, it seemed to be going well in spite of this blackmail forcing Sophia to do things for that shit-stain Aiden, but knowing Dylan caused it was a hard pill to swallow and made little sense. It's far easier to accept that Dylan was actually being bullied and Aiden was doing this because he's a prick.

I hear ya, it's a double edge sword. I'm pretty neutral on Dylan, I don't care one way or another, but I thought it was a surprisingly dark twist for the character. The fact that L&P didn't see it as a big deal surprises me because it really contextualizes Dylan.

A completely unnecessary dark turn, hence why it needed to go.

 

[lockerxx]

L&P is taking more days? i am ok with that,

 

[Alley_Cat]

For me it isn't even about the Twist itself anymore, but L&P's response to the reaction. That L&P can so apparently quickly and easily cave into pressure, over something he himself says doesn't even effect the main storyline.

And that my reason for supporting the game, because I enjoy story and character development and choices and not just boobs, which is what I thought the game was about, is under threat because of how quickly L&P will abandon the story he wrote.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

For me it isn't even about the Twist itself anymore, but L&P's response to the reaction. That L&P can so apparently quickly and easily cave into pressure, over something he himself says doesn't even effect the main storyline.

And that my reason for supporting the game, because I enjoy story and character development and choices and not just boobs, which is what I thought the game was about, is under threat because of how quickly L&P will abandon the story he wrote.

His response was the right one. He was on the verge of ruining a main character forever because of a silly, nonsensical, and short-sightedly dangerous decision by said character. But this isn't a slippery slope, as some people seem to be trying to make it out to be. Sometimes devs make objectively bad mistakes, and this is one of those cases, but it doesn't mean they'll change every little thing when some people complain about things they didn't like.

Nothing is "under threat" and I think it's ridiculous to believe that anything is.