VN Ren'Py A Wife and Mother [v0.205] [Lust & Passion]

[Alley_Cat]

... Having said that, I doubt whether many fans would object to Sophia or Patricia phoning Jason or Haru to tell them that they can't make their 'date' because they're washing their hair. Now that would be realism.

Considering there's a Patricia event straight after with so much more potential for shenanigans, if I thought L&P would listen I'd be tempted to become a patron and demand it.

 

[Deleted member 4922995]

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[Sabertooth__]

I was writing in a general sense but what you say about the forthcoming Sam situation neatly highlights how AWAM has become too complex. What started as a VN with some game-style choices has become a porn game with so many permutations theoretically possible that the various routes no longer flow. AWAM is now episodic in the style of an average game, (most of which are simpler), with the proviso that event-based updates have not worked out, either in terms of the proposed delivery schedule, or the continuous narrative, which is necessary for the reader's immersion in the tale. It could not be otherwise with characters & storylines disappearing for 5 or more years in real time, when in San Alejo time only a couple of days may have passed.

There is always the possibility of waiting for a year or two & then playing what has accumulated but how many fans would want to do so, (or be able to do so, because a lot can happen in 2 years), if given a choice? It's a horrible way to try to follow anything IMO. Realism has appeared to decline in direct correlation with the increase in complexity. This is a plate of spaghetti that, amongst other things, increases the chance of burn-out.

One obvious solution would be to reduce the number of routes &/or characters, while endeavouring to deliver an update a month, as was announced when the event-based updates decision was first made. We all know these things won't happen & even if they did, the elimination of any paths or characters, once introduced, would stir howls of protest. Having said that, I doubt whether many fans would object to Sophia or Patricia phoning Jason or Haru to tell them that they can't make their 'date' because they're washing their hair. Now that would be realism.

I still feel you are kinda missing the point of my post. A bigger game definitely contributes to the complexity u talked about. But the real problem is the quest for absolute realism that you were discussing earlier about how Sophia's mind feels compartmentalised and she doesn't think much about what happened in the previous event and her arousal level is not building off of each event.

The very fact that L&P has to give choices to the players affects the connectivity of the events with one another and hampers the overall realism. If he was just writing a kinetic novel, his narrative would have been much more comprehensive and connecting to other events. There wouldn't be a need to compartmentalise anything. And writing this corruption story would have been so much more easier even if he had twice the number of characters than now. If you look at my example in the previous message i only takes about the possibilities of the different arousal levels if Sophia and how far she should go based on that in context of 3 scenes. Aiden's task, Gang meeting and 2nd job. Suppose this game only had 3 routes. I still listed 4-5 possibilities for the next Sam scene. After this scene a few more Possibilities open, creating multiple different Sam routes for the sake of realism or the other option is not giving players more than one choice in the scene and going with the kinetic novel approach. So the problem isn't prominently the number of routes or characters, but the necessity to give the player choices and the desire from the audience of an absolutely realistic scenario taking into consideration every single event that has happened in one playthrough for every successive scene.

There are games even bigger than Awam and with more characters and active storylines, which are choice based. But those games aren't critically analysed or talked about in the manner Awam is. In none of the games whether small or big, the dev accounts for the kind of possibilities i just laid down to reach complete realism in behaviour of the main character. Because you just can't create a scenario for everything in the game. People are forgetting the objective of the novel and it's primary genre. The game is supposed to hav sexual content and things relating to eroticism. If complete realism in imbued into this, The novel will not be erotic and i can guarantee that. And to everyone, even the longest and loyal fans will only say that L&P is slowing down the game in both story pacing and development even more and just milking.

Literally i have never seen people judge a character's behaviour, writing, dialogue choices, outfit choices, where she keeps her clothes, bags, whether her arousal should carry forward into other scenes and so on, in any thread. People are taking it to the extremes to criticize the writing and every single choice made by the dev. This literally taking it to the level of how die hard fans or haters dissect well written shows like Breaking Bad, Attack on Titan so on. This story is not in the realm and having to include Something sexual in every scene and making it seem 100% realistic is impossible. Even if he writes everything Logically. It just won't be realistic enough. Might be sounding contradictory but that is the fact of the matter.

If L&P goes for absolute realism you will see numerous scenes one after another or extremely long scenes leading to the slightest of progression given the time spent in the game. Sometimes there will be nothing sexual at all. And i can already hear people complaining how he is just milking, and why is there is no sexual content. What is the point of building character relationships and development, why do I need to understand the psyche of Dylan, Ellie, Sophia and Liam to comprehend the family dynamic, why is Ellie kinda distant with her Dad. Sophia's gradual separation from Liam, how is it affecting her mentally after every scene. What are her thoughts when she lays in bed with him at night knowing what she did the whole day. Nobody cares for this. If the scene doesn't have Sophia's naked boobs or butt and someone kissing or groping her, then the scene is a waste of time.

But we have people here who want all the realism while we have some who wouldn't even question a gangbang next scene.

 

[rayso12]

stop supporting people you are deceiving make the sex scene how many years have passed

 

[Deleted member 4922995]

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[Bill_Buttlicker]

Too long to read

I was going to read your post, but you lost me after "Too".

 

[ancienregimele]

I still feel you are kinda missing the point of my post. A bigger game definitely contributes to the complexity u talked about. But the real problem is the quest for absolute realism that you were discussing earlier about how Sophia's mind feels compartmentalised and she doesn't think much about what happened in the previous event and her arousal level is not building off of each event.

The very fact that L&P has to give choices to the players affects the connectivity of the events with one another and hampers the overall realism. If he was just writing a kinetic novel, his narrative would have been much more comprehensive and connecting to other events. There wouldn't be a need to compartmentalise anything. And writing this corruption story would have been so much more easier even if he had twice the number of characters than now. If you look at my example in the previous message i only takes about the possibilities of the different arousal levels if Sophia and how far she should go based on that in context of 3 scenes. Aiden's task, Gang meeting and 2nd job. Suppose this game only had 3 routes. I still listed 4-5 possibilities for the next Sam scene. After this scene a few more Possibilities open, creating multiple different Sam routes for the sake of realism or the other option is not giving players more than one choice in the scene and going with the kinetic novel approach. So the problem isn't prominently the number of routes or characters, but the necessity to give the player choices and the desire from the audience of an absolutely realistic scenario taking into consideration every single event that has happened in one playthrough for every successive scene.

There are games even bigger than Awam and with more characters and active storylines, which are choice based. But those games aren't critically analysed or talked about in the manner Awam is. In none of the games whether small or big, the dev accounts for the kind of possibilities i just laid down to reach complete realism in behaviour of the main character. Because you just can't create a scenario for everything in the game. People are forgetting the objective of the novel and it's primary genre. The game is supposed to hav sexual content and things relating to eroticism. If complete realism in imbued into this, The novel will not be erotic and i can guarantee that. And to everyone, even the longest and loyal fans will only say that L&P is slowing down the game in both story pacing and development even more and just milking.

Literally i have never seen people judge a character's behaviour, writing, dialogue choices, outfit choices, where she keeps her clothes, bags, whether her arousal should carry forward into other scenes and so on, in any thread. People are taking it to the extremes to criticize the writing and every single choice made by the dev. This literally taking it to the level of how die hard fans or haters dissect well written shows like Breaking Bad, Attack on Titan so on. This story is not in the realm and having to include Something sexual in every scene and making it seem 100% realistic is impossible. Even if he writes everything Logically. It just won't be realistic enough. Might be sounding contradictory but that is the fact of the matter.

If L&P goes for absolute realism you will see numerous scenes one after another or extremely long scenes leading to the slightest of progression given the time spent in the game. Sometimes there will be nothing sexual at all. And i can already hear people complaining how he is just milking, and why is there is no sexual content. What is the point of building character relationships and development, why do I need to understand the psyche of Dylan, Ellie, Sophia and Liam to comprehend the family dynamic, why is Ellie kinda distant with her Dad. Sophia's gradual separation from Liam, how is it affecting her mentally after every scene. What are her thoughts when she lays in bed with him at night knowing what she did the whole day. Nobody cares for this. If the scene doesn't have Sophia's naked boobs or butt and someone kissing or groping her, then the scene is a waste of time.

But we have people here who want all the realism while we have some who wouldn't even question a gangbang next scene.

I do understand what you're saying but at the same time I'm not calling for "absolute realism". I would be happy with the 'better than your average porn game' realism that existed for the first couple of years or so. Remember it was L&P who set his own bar high & if he didn't always reach up to it, at least there was a sense that it was a real goal & that he was committed to making something good. It was so good that I found that other games just didn't match up & I stopped playing most of them. This was because I was in pursuit of erotica not porn. I've read, seen & heard enough porn to be actually bored by it. Jaded, some would contend but I know I'm not. Rather, I appreciate quality, whether in renders or writing but preferably both.

There has indeed been & will continue to be, far too much analysis of every teaser, outfit & storyline implication. I used to do this myself. If a fly appeared on a wall behind any character there'd be half a dozen theories about it in less time than it took for it to fly away. Part of the reason lies in the amazing amount of interest that AWAM has generated over the years. Interest I believe that wouldn't have occurred with a lesser product. Another part of the reason is the interminable waiting that L&P's working pace entails. This is interest that could have increased L&P's earning power, had he capitalised on it. So, it might suggest that income & creativity are in balance from the Dev's POV, because he has singularly failed to properly exploit AWAM's hard-won popularity.

I've played games with even slower roll-out schedules which don't create a tenth of the discussions & controversy surrounding Sophia & co. If the Dev had been willing &/or capable of sustaining his original production rate, much of it would never have taken place. That's a decision that's down to the Dev. Whether or not he reads the stuff these days, we don't know but he could see it all as a back-handed compliment. You can love or hate AWAM but it's hard to be indifferent to it, once you've played.

Tamaris makes a good point above when he talks about "variables" which can be used to increase the logical progression of multi-faceted story routes. I've played corruption games with these in place & they work. It's still the case, however, that in his wish to continually add characters, branches & kinks, L&P has made his work harder, or maybe not, given the torpid approach of the last couple of years.

So, to attempt to summarise & leaving render quality (never less than good) aside, what we had was a well written piece of semi-realistic 3D erotica, what we've got now is a standard porn game that's too slow & doesn't contain much porn. Somehow, despite this, the interest won't die down.

 

[Jackie123]

so this game still has no sex scene?

 

[Hlextor]

played.

@Tamaris makes a good point above when he talks about "variables" which can be used to increase the logical progression of multi-faceted story routes. I've played corruption games with these in place & they work. It's still the case, however, that in his wish to continually add characters, branches & kinks, L&P has made his work harder, or maybe not, given the torpid approach of the last couple of years.

As a result, the game would become even more extensive! L&P would have to incorporate even more different scenes into an event. For one person then not at all more to create. I can completely understand Sabertooth__ analysis.

 

[Deleted member 4922995]

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[hzjujk]

The issue that you guys are pointing out here regarding the fact that L&P said the previous scene won't have an impact on the Sam scene, it should be looked into with more detail to understand the scope of why he chose to not have the previous events create an impact.

To start, there is not just one possibility here. The guy on patron asked if Sophia will be hot and bothered because of the 2nd job in the Sam scene. He said no. Now this also because there is route where she is not doing the second job. So she won't be turned on. There is also a possibility that she wasn't doing the Aiden's tasks as well as the 2nd job. So she has had no sexual encounter since Morning. Suppose he considers the impact of a previous scene to have Sophia more turned on in one timeline than the other. This should directly effect how far she goes in a respective event, otherwise it makes no sense to consider the impact of her arousal. This also means an exclusive set of dialogues. There will be Multiple scenarios in the next Sam event in this case.
1) Sophia has just come from the 2nd job and The task and meeting and is extremely turned on. So she should allow Sam a little more than she would have if she was not
2) Sophia has only done Aiden's task in the morning and no gang meeting. Again the level of arousal should be different and the final outcome of the Sam scene changes
3) She did the task and the gang meeting, no second job. She should be disgusted by what happened and definitely should not be in the mood for Anything Sexual, add to that cheating on her husband with a teenager. So what happens in this scenario Realistically should be different.
4) Possibility she did nothing since morning. So she is not aroused at all.
Other possibilities include. Only doing the 2nd job and nothing else. The level of arousal should be different to case 1,2,3 above. This should result in an outcome different than others and how far Sophia goes with Sam. Atleast if we are talking about realism and what L&P should do to create a perfectly well written game.
And this just me talking about the next update scene based on the possibilities since this morning of Day 20.

To explain further, Logically it makes no sense for the relationship between Sam Sophia to end if she just kisses him but does not let him grope her. Hence for realism sake he would have to make another path in the Sam route where the two only kissed during the night but weren't almost caught by Liam. This changes the whole reason for the next scene as to why Sophia is going to see Sam.

Until now i was only talking in the context of the Sam scene. Let's widen the scope. Multiple Dylan, Ellie events and other storylines. If each were to have an impact on the next scene directly it would create a huge number of timelines to accomodate.
For example as an Art class model who showed herself in the Aphrodite outfit and Showed her breasts should have been turned on more than ever with Ares dick touching her. This should have had a direct impact on the next Dylan Jogging scene and she should have gone maybe a lot further. The other possibility could be she does the bare minimum and does not let Aiden grope her, in this case she is not as bothered and turned on. This scenario the Dylan Jogging scene should have turned out differently. With maybe Sophia not allowing Dylan to grope her ass. What does this mean for the next event. He has two variants of the scene. One where Dylan Massaged her ass and one where Dylan didn't, he now needs to account for both these possibilities in the next event which will further create another set of possibilities which need to be accounted for. And i am not even considering the impact it should have on the Nathalie scene after the Jogging scene or the Bar scene because of how far she goes with Nathalie.

Not to mention currently i have only spoken in context of 3-4 events of Day 19. What about the hundreds of different possibilities that need to be accounted for over the course of the previous 11 Playable Days.

So the kind of realism you guys are talking about is not even possible for a big company to produce. if L&P starts taking all this i to consideration from the beginning each and every event will take over a year to produce considering the impact of all previous scenes, Possibilities and dialogue. This is a more like a trickle down effect, if each scene impacts the next scene with the possibility of each player having a choice to play or not play a route with the added condition that they can exit a route at any given point in the scene. No one can accomodate for realism of this kind. There is no proper novel that can accommodate for what you are criticizing here. If L&P was writing a linear story without giving the choices to the players he could definitely write an far far better story than having to work with all these permutations and combinations.

The events happening in Sophia's downfall in a timeline are very specific. Just like in Endgame, Dr.strange says there is only 1 in 14 million possibilities of them winning. This situation with Sophia is similar to that. All the coincidences, all the choices have to be exactly the way it is happening on the filthy route for the story to progress. Like if Ellie didn't catch her mother watching porn, Sophia and Ellie would never have a sexual relationship, if she refused to kiss her Sister, Again Sophia and Ellie won't a relationship. Same goes for all routes and every choice in the game. The filthy route is basically the very specific set of events that need to happen for Sophia to move towards her corruption. Any other set of events will not give the same outcome and Sophia will stop herself.

Hence when L&P refused in his reply that 2nd job has any impact on the Sam event it was a better descision. He is writing the story and most definitely understands the complexity it will bring for the scene creation, Dialogues and coding, if he starts considering Sophia's level of arousal after each scene and how far she went in that respective scene.

They went to a lot of trouble to show that the way sic L&P decided to tell the story is the better one - because it is less complicated to tell.
Sure, for the developer this is the case, but it doesn't do the story any good at all. L&P wrote at the very beginning of the development that he has already written the complete story. If that was really the case, he must have made a conscious decision to write the individual routes without overlaps between them. But I think that also led to the outcry when Dylan's involvement in the blackmail of Sophia by Aiden became known. L&P's reaction to that - "It doesn't matter to Sophia in the future!" - and a lack of understanding for all the commotion. But this was a break in the story that the players just didn't want to go along with. Because the break was so big that even those who are only here for a gangbang noticed that the story doesn't work that way.
If L&P really thought out his story as he claimed, it should have been clear to him before.
A second point I would like to address is that corruption does not simply arise from the sexual events or becomes plausible for the player. Corruption also arises from the, at least, mental linking of the individual events and routes by the main heroine of the game. It is not necessary to let different states of arousal from the previous event flow into the next one, a simple mental reflection of Sophia is enough.
The conflicts that would arise in such mind games of the heroine would make the corruption more believable and could even make it possible to earn additional corruption points.
If L&P wanted to avoid these problems by doing the work to integrate such overlaps into the game, then they should have, and I can't believe I'm writing this now, left out some routes.

 

[Hlextor]

No no 'more different scenes into an event'...
Don't caricature my words the event will not change : it's just a micro-extra

By example, a scene contains 60 renderings and 200 lines of text.
It's just adding a few lines of dialogue / one or two images where Sophia shares her thoughts (if excited == true) and only, as I wrote, 'where something really exciting happens.'

Don't tell me that it will make the game much broader, or add several scenes in a event.

The aim is just to take into account Sophia's state of mind.

It's immersion, otherwise you have a character who is super excited by an idea or an action (for ex. taken by an entire team of players) and who few minutes later is totally cold, or reticent for an action 10 times less crazy/amoral and few minutes later totally excited to kiss Ellie or she wants to tease someone...

It's too binary, nobody's like that (except bipolar people).

I know that most people here don't care about consistency of behaviour or psychology, so it's an idea that won't be of interest to many.

And as written also, this isn't what was decided by the dev. So we'll keep a Sophia, totally polarized.
View attachment 2048507

But then L&P would have to check this plausibility for each new event, whether she has done the task before, whether she was at the 2nd sidejob before, etc to signal to Sophia, now you can react hornier or not?! Isn't that time-consuming?

 

[new_user!]

How events could develop.
She says: So (as yesterday in the bath) can no longer continue. I offer a guitar-deal. You don't grope me in front of others, and I can teach you a lesson in sexual education on live models.
He: Will it be possible to look at a nude model and "feel the fabric"?
She: Yes, but only for educational purposes.
He: And why is a "guitar- deal"?
She: in front of others is a guitar lesson.
He: OK, I agree.
She: Don't you want to invite Dylan to class?
He: ...?
Continued in the next series.

 

[Deleted member 4922995]

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[XKJ333]

No % update
hes stuck at 35%

 

[Whitekink]

No % update
hes stuck at 35%

It's the weekend.

 

[truerty]

so this game still has no sex scene?

For the love of god how many times should it be told. It has sex scenes. Only in them sophia won't be doing it with anyone other than her husband. There's another one too, the rogue aiden letting his friend have a go with his girl.

 

[Whitekink]

For the love of god how many times should it be told. It has sex scenes. Only in them sophia won't be doing it with anyone other than her husband. There's another one too, the rogue aiden letting his friend have a go with his girl.

Unfortunately, some people can't be bothered to read back a few pages to read the last time someone asked the very same question!
I feel your frustration.

 

[armion82]

The issue that you guys are pointing out here regarding the fact that L&P said the previous scene won't have an impact on the Sam scene, it should be looked into with more detail to understand the scope of why he chose to not have the previous events create an impact.

To start, there is not just one possibility here. The guy on patron asked if Sophia will be hot and bothered because of the 2nd job in the Sam scene. He said no. Now this also because there is route where she is not doing the second job. So she won't be turned on. There is also a possibility that she wasn't doing the Aiden's tasks as well as the 2nd job. So she has had no sexual encounter since Morning. Suppose he considers the impact of a previous scene to have Sophia more turned on in one timeline than the other. This should directly effect how far she goes in a respective event, otherwise it makes no sense to consider the impact of her arousal. This also means an exclusive set of dialogues. There will be Multiple scenarios in the next Sam event in this case.
1) Sophia has just come from the 2nd job and The task and meeting and is extremely turned on. So she should allow Sam a little more than she would have if she was not
2) Sophia has only done Aiden's task in the morning and no gang meeting. Again the level of arousal should be different and the final outcome of the Sam scene changes
3) She did the task and the gang meeting, no second job. She should be disgusted by what happened and definitely should not be in the mood for Anything Sexual, add to that cheating on her husband with a teenager. So what happens in this scenario Realistically should be different.
4) Possibility she did nothing since morning. So she is not aroused at all.
Other possibilities include. Only doing the 2nd job and nothing else. The level of arousal should be different to case 1,2,3 above. This should result in an outcome different than others and how far Sophia goes with Sam. Atleast if we are talking about realism and what L&P should do to create a perfectly well written game.
And this just me talking about the next update scene based on the possibilities since this morning of Day 20.

To explain further, Logically it makes no sense for the relationship between Sam Sophia to end if she just kisses him but does not let him grope her. Hence for realism sake he would have to make another path in the Sam route where the two only kissed during the night but weren't almost caught by Liam. This changes the whole reason for the next scene as to why Sophia is going to see Sam.

Until now i was only talking in the context of the Sam scene. Let's widen the scope. Multiple Dylan, Ellie events and other storylines. If each were to have an impact on the next scene directly it would create a huge number of timelines to accomodate.
For example as an Art class model who showed herself in the Aphrodite outfit and Showed her breasts should have been turned on more than ever with Ares dick touching her. This should have had a direct impact on the next Dylan Jogging scene and she should have gone maybe a lot further. The other possibility could be she does the bare minimum and does not let Aiden grope her, in this case she is not as bothered and turned on. This scenario the Dylan Jogging scene should have turned out differently. With maybe Sophia not allowing Dylan to grope her ass. What does this mean for the next event. He has two variants of the scene. One where Dylan Massaged her ass and one where Dylan didn't, he now needs to account for both these possibilities in the next event which will further create another set of possibilities which need to be accounted for. And i am not even considering the impact it should have on the Nathalie scene after the Jogging scene or the Bar scene because of how far she goes with Nathalie.

Not to mention currently i have only spoken in context of 3-4 events of Day 19. What about the hundreds of different possibilities that need to be accounted for over the course of the previous 11 Playable Days.

So the kind of realism you guys are talking about is not even possible for a big company to produce. if L&P starts taking all this i to consideration from the beginning each and every event will take over a year to produce considering the impact of all previous scenes, Possibilities and dialogue. This is a more like a trickle down effect, if each scene impacts the next scene with the possibility of each player having a choice to play or not play a route with the added condition that they can exit a route at any given point in the scene. No one can accomodate for realism of this kind. There is no proper novel that can accommodate for what you are criticizing here. If L&P was writing a linear story without giving the choices to the players he could definitely write an far far better story than having to work with all these permutations and combinations.

The events happening in Sophia's downfall in a timeline are very specific. Just like in Endgame, Dr.strange says there is only 1 in 14 million possibilities of them winning. This situation with Sophia is similar to that. All the coincidences, all the choices have to be exactly the way it is happening on the filthy route for the story to progress. Like if Ellie didn't catch her mother watching porn, Sophia and Ellie would never have a sexual relationship, if she refused to kiss her Sister, Again Sophia and Ellie won't a relationship. Same goes for all routes and every choice in the game. The filthy route is basically the very specific set of events that need to happen for Sophia to move towards her corruption. Any other set of events will not give the same outcome and Sophia will stop herself.

Hence when L&P refused in his reply that 2nd job has any impact on the Sam event it was a better descision. He is writing the story and most definitely understands the complexity it will bring for the scene creation, Dialogues and coding, if he starts considering Sophia's level of arousal after each scene and how far she went in that respective scene.

Why not just use the amount of filthy/lesbian points we have at the moment of the current event.That way it doesn't matter if you had them from Aiden's task,Dylan or Sam event.
For example if you have
less than 50-nothing will happen
50-100- some gropping and kissing
more than 100-Sophia show her tits and let Sam play,kiss,lick them,maybe even let him touch her pussy.Through the fabric of course

 

[Alley_Cat]

Why not just use the amount of filthy/lesbian points we have at the moment of the current event.That way it doesn't matter if you had them from Aiden's task,Dylan or Sam event.
For example if you have
less than 50-nothing will happen
50-100- some gropping and kissing
more than 100-Sophia show her tits and let Sam play,kiss,lick them,maybe even let him touch her pussy.Through the fabric of course

Because Filthy points have absolutely nothing to do with how aroused she is. It's taken about a hundred for Sophia to be aroused during Aiden's tasks, but only about a dozen on the Ellie and Patricia routes, and you don't need any for her to be horny at seeing Nat jilling off on her bed.