VN Ren'Py A Wife and Mother [v0.211] [Lust & Passion]

[Alley_Cat]

The thing that bothered me most about the twist was that it didn't make any sense from an in-universe perspective. While liberties and suspension of disbelief are expected and accepted, the game is still set in a world where incest is taboo. Dylan knows what he's doing wouldn't be viewed as appropriate by anyone outside of his very deranged circle. I could not reconcile how Dylan could live in a world like this, and still approach a total stranger and suggest that he pressure Sophia to dressing provocatively. Aiden would take one look at Dylan and say "what the hell is wrong with you? Isn't that your mother? Why the hell are you asking me to do that?" And when Dylan responded with some sort of bullshit about wanting his mother to feel more comfortable, Aiden would kick the shit out of him for being a legit pervert. So I just couldn't reconcile that Dylan would put himself and Sophia out on a limb like that.



By all means you can enjoy the story, but I don't think we should overestimate L&P's abilities as a writer or storyteller. He's an amateur storyteller, and that's ok, but I don't think we should expect him to put together a flawless story. I say this because I don't want you to lose hope in the game, and a re-calibration of your expectations may help. L&P is going to give you his best, so don't feel like the story is under threat, but don't expect him to create the Citizen Kane of adult games either. At some level he's flying by the seat of his pants, so he's going to respond to Patron feedback when he thinks he needs to. I can imagine that L&P had a really clear, hour by hour, plan for the first 5 playable days, and then had a rough outline for the remainder. As the game has gone on and become very profitable, he's probably gone way beyond whatever he originally planned for and is writing the story as he goes.

Aiden's exact words were "I don't know, man. That whole thing is so fucked up somehow!"

And as for it not making sense, like Ellie's revelations there are clues throughout the game. Even the dishwasher breaking is suspicious, as it only happens on the Dylan route, and only after Sophia rejects the bikini deal and Dylan's offer to wash the dished, because they have a working dishwasher. That Dylan hasn't done anything yet without wanting something in return is another example. And his shyness results in him making deals like for Sophia to wear bikinis more, instead of Ellie's approach on day 3 of having the confidence to just say she thinks Sophia is hot: "I mean, even though I was little back then, I understood that my mom must be really hot if she got more attention than any other woman around! And you still are!"

The clearest example of Dylan's nature comes from the soccer match. L&P himself calls Dylan's kiss insidious. That Dylan doesn't ask for a kiss on the lips like Ellie does, but does it before Sophia can react. Doesn't apologise either like Emma does.

 

[abram1]

His response was the right one. He was on the verge of ruining a main character forever because of a silly, nonsensical, and short-sightedly dangerous decision by said character. But this isn't a slippery slope, as some people seem to be trying to make it out to be. Sometimes devs make objectively bad mistakes, and this is one of those cases, but it doesn't mean they'll change every little thing when some people complain about things they didn't like.

Nothing is "under threat" and I think it's ridiculous to believe that anything is.

The issue itself wasn't removing or keeping "The Twist" intact, but how sloppy it's been presented to the audience. It shoud've been kept in secret up until the later stages of the game and the reveal would've been less shocking to some as we could've observed Dylan's evolution as a character, comprehending his motives step by step.

The more important thing is, who exactly among the patreons was pissed off. What if some supporters with a supposed $100+ monthly donations were not happy after uncovering that sequence?

Anyway, it's L'P's baby, his own vision. From an overall perspective that scene has had miniscule impact on the plot.

I can imagine that L&P had a really clear, hour by hour, plan for the first 5 playable days, and then had a rough outline for the remainder. As the game has gone on and become very profitable, he's probably gone way beyond whatever he originally planned for and is writing the story as he goes.

Here we go again. No need to imagine anything, when there are clear answers. The framework of the game is done, all the storylines are set. He's clearly adding/removing some stuff by the request of those, who paying him, because that's what a businessmen do: they listen and adjust their behavior accordingly. For us it's one of many VN's out there, for him it's a steady source of income and he'll only do the bidding of those, who put food on his table and pay the bills.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

Aiden's exact words were "I don't know, man. That whole thing is so fucked up somehow!"

And as for it not making sense, like Ellie's revelations there are clues throughout the game. Even the dishwasher breaking is suspicious, as it only happens on the Dylan route, and only after Sophia rejects the bikini deal and Dylan's offer to wash the dished, because they have a working dishwasher. That Dylan hasn't done anything yet without wanting something in return is another example. And his shyness results in him making deals like for Sophia to wear bikinis more, instead of Ellie's approach on day 3 of having the confidence to just say she thinks Sophia is hot: "I mean, even though I was little back then, I understood that my mom must be really hot if she got more attention than any other woman around! And you still are!"

The clearest example of Dylan's nature comes from the soccer match. L&P himself calls Dylan's kiss insidious. That Dylan doesn't ask for a kiss on the lips like Ellie does, but does it before Sophia can react. Doesn't apologise either like Emma does.

I'm glad Aiden responds that way, but it doesn't really strike me as a sufficient response.

And I hear what you're saying about Dylan being deceptive in his approach to Sophia; but I guess I look at the Aiden twist as something unique onto itself. It's one thing to creep on Sophia, but it's another to bring in a 3rd party; and then still another to weave such a complicated lie with a 3rd party. That's such a radical escalation of the creep factor that could also expose him and Sophia to major issues. Fooling around in the pool, or the bathroom, in the changing room at the beach, etc are all pretty self contained, and that makes the Aiden twist so extreme.

Maybe it would have been better if we had seen a middle step, something else that included a 3rd party and a public setting. But that would require even more screen time for Dylan.

 

[cakeny]

I'm glad Aiden responds that way, but it doesn't really strike me as a sufficient response.

And I hear what you're saying about Dylan being deceptive in his approach to Sophia; but I guess I look at the Aiden twist as something unique onto itself. It's one thing to creep on Sophia, but it's another to bring in a 3rd party; and then still another to weave such a complicated lie with a 3rd party. That's such a radical escalation of the creep factor that could also expose him and Sophia to major issues. Fooling around in the pool, or the bathroom, in the changing room at the beach, etc are all pretty self contained, and that makes the Aiden twist so extreme.

Maybe it would have been better if we had seen a middle step, something else that included a 3rd party and a public setting. But that would require even more screen time for Dylan.

I think it was a bad idea to remove twist. It gave perfect reason to get rid of Dylan and it only appears on path where you reject his attempts.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

I think it was a bad idea to remove twist. It gave perfect reason to get rid of Dylan and it only appears on path where you reject his attempts.

I mean, you say get rid of him, but he's Liam and Sophia's son- he's always going to be around in some capacity. He won't just walk up the stairs one day and never come back down like the girl from Family Matters.

In case no one gets the reference, look at #3 specifically.

You must be registered to see the links

 

[Alley_Cat]

The issue itself wasn't removing or keeping "The Twist" intact, but how sloppy it's been presented to the audience. It shoud've been kept in secret up until the later stages of the game and the reveal would've been less shocking to some as we could've observed Dylan's evolution as a character, comprehending his motives step by step.

The more important thing is, who exactly among the patreons was pissed off. What if some supporters with a supposed $100+ monthly donations were not happy after uncovering that sequence?

Anyway, it's L'P's baby, his own vision. From an overall perspective that scene has had miniscule impact on the plot.


Here we go again. No need to imagine anything, when there are clear answers. The framework of the game is done, all the storylines are set. He's clearly adding/removing some stuff by the request of those, who paying him, because that's what a businessmen do: they listen and adjust their behavior accordingly. For us it's one of many VN's out there, for him it's a steady source of income and he'll only do the bidding of those, who put food on his table and pay the bills.

If it was his own vision, I could accept it and move on. If there was a vote and removal won I'd be disappointed he didn't stick to his story, but I could accept it and move on. But neither is the case here. All we know is that an unknown number of patrons complained, and a couple of days after release L&P announced he was removing the Twist because of it.

What I'm finding actually kinda funny is that I've been starting to like the game Inertia. It's new, but the dev has outright said from the beginning that he'll develop the plot based on votes. So if the vote from his patrons is for the MC to get gangbanged, he'll work that into the plot somehow. It's unfortunate that he's pimping out the MC, but at least he's honest about it.

Whereas for AWAM, we're still arguing over the nature of the bonus storyline. For me it's just about the relationship between Dylan and Ellie, but for Dylan fans it's setting up Dylan/Ellie.

I'm glad Aiden responds that way, but it doesn't really strike me as a sufficient response.

And I hear what you're saying about Dylan being deceptive in his approach to Sophia; but I guess I look at the Aiden twist as something unique onto itself. It's one thing to creep on Sophia, but it's another to bring in a 3rd party; and then still another to weave such a complicated lie with a 3rd party. That's such a radical escalation of the creep factor that could also expose him and Sophia to major issues. Fooling around in the pool, or the bathroom, in the changing room at the beach, etc are all pretty self contained, and that makes the Aiden twist so extreme.

Maybe it would have been better if we had seen a middle step, something else that included a 3rd party and a public setting. But that would require even more screen time for Dylan.

And extra scene time would've been great, if it meant we saw more character development for Dylan.

 

[cakeny]

I mean, you say get rid of him, but he's Liam and Sophia's son- he's always going to be around in some capacity. He won't just walk up the stairs one day and never come back down like the girl from Family Matters.

In case no one gets the reference, look at #3 specifically.

You must be registered to see the links

He could be shipped off to boarding school permanently, disowned, and never seen from again. His actions were bad enough to warrant such banishment in my view.

 

[abram1]

Whereas for AWAM, we're still arguing over the nature of the bonus storyline.

And L&P stating that Dylan/Sam wont be happening

He could be shipped off to boarding school permanently, disowned, and never seen from again. His actions were bad enough to warrant such banishment in my view.

That could've be been The Twist of all twists, Dylan secretly hooking up with his best bud. But does Zac know about this? Is that what the true male friendship looks like? Stay tuned for the upcoming updates to find out.

Dylan, the most popular character in the game, not counting Sophia, being excluded from the game? The amount of shit that would pour on L&P, if he ever does that, man, I can't wait. This thread would drown in it's own excrements.

 

[Captain Bipto]

That could've be been The Twist of all twists, Dylan secretly hooking up with his best bud. But does Zac know about this? Is that what the true male friendship looks like? Stay tuned for the upcoming updates to find out.

Dylan, the most popular character in the game, not counting Sophia, being excluded from the game? The amount of shit that would pour on L&P, if he ever does that, man, I can't wait. This thread would drown in it's own excrements.

They get rid of Dylan and I'm out of here. Take my money and back something else!!!

 

[Captain Bipto]

They get rid of Dylan and I'm out of here. Take my money and back something else!!!

oh wait, I don't pay for this crap

 

[Alley_Cat]

That could've be been The Twist of all twists, Dylan secretly hooking up with his best bud. But does Zac know about this? Is that what the true male friendship looks like? Stay tuned for the upcoming updates to find out.

Dylan, the most popular character in the game, not counting Sophia, being excluded from the game? The amount of shit that would pour on L&P, if he ever does that, man, I can't wait. This thread would drown in it's own excrements.

He'll never be excluded from the game, nor should he be. For those that like his content, there's the Aiden route. And with points in Dylan, even apparently Dylan/Amber on the boarding school route.

What is objectionable though, is for those that have chosen not to play his content to be forced to anyway, as what happened in the Yoga event. Sophia could have left him in the city and picked him up after the yoga class. Would have only taken a few extra renders of Dylan not being in the car and at the entrance to the studio. And those wanting to play the Dylan content could still have done that happily.

Every other character, if you don't have the points or the required flags, you don't get the content, which is as it should be.

 

[cakeny]

That could've be been The Twist of all twists, Dylan secretly hooking up with his best bud. But does Zac know about this? Is that what the true male friendship looks like? Stay tuned for the upcoming updates to find out.

Dylan, the most popular character in the game, not counting Sophia, being excluded from the game? The amount of shit that would pour on L&P, if he ever does that, man, I can't wait. This thread would drown in it's own excrements.

Why would anyone complain? It would only be on playthrough of people rejecting Dylan and doubt they would complain if he was completely gone.

He'll never be excluded from the game, nor should he be. For those that like his content, there's the Aiden route. And with points in Dylan, even apparently Dylan/Amber on the boarding school route.

What is objectionable though, is for those that have chosen not to play his content to be forced to anyway, as what happened in the Yoga event. Sophia could have left him in the city and picked him up after the yoga class. Would have only taken a few extra renders of Dylan not being in the car and at the entrance to the studio. And those wanting to play the Dylan content could still have done that happily.

Every other character, if you don't have the points or the required flags, you don't get the content, which is as it should be.

If I had choice I would have left him at bus stop. He made his bed, he can lie in it.

 

[Alley_Cat]

Why would anyone complain? It would only be on playthrough of people rejecting Dylan and doubt they would complain if he was completely gone.


If I had choice I would have left him at bus stop. He made his bed, he can lie in it.

As gingersweetgirl points out, he's still a Parker. And it's not like he's kicking puppies and kittens. That's why I suggest the option of leaving him for a few hours to think about and learn from his mistake, then pick him up after the yoga session when it's convenient for Sophia. Or for those on the Dylan/Amber route who choose the boarding school route but still have Dylan points, the choice to pick him up and play as normal

 

[PaxHadrian17]

That's one of the motives why some people snap so much at Dylan and his fuckbois, especially the fuckbois. They can't admit that their favorite character is not perfect, which is normal btw, so they headbash their way into making L&P change the game for them.

Kodek,

I get that you don't like Dylan - that's fine - we each get to choose who we like/dislike.

But... your post comes across as much closer to a rant that I am used to seeing from you.

I like Dylan. I've never said he was perfect. Many of the Dylan fans have not made that claim.

If you can find a post of mine that says otherwise (the entire post versus a piece taken out of context - Kodek, you would not do this but there are some who dislike Dylan who would), please include it in your reply.

I like Dylan, I can empathize with him, and he's not perfect - just like the rest of the Parkers.

Each Parker - Sophia, Ellie, Dylan and Liam - has their imperfections.

So... they are human characters in a story and L&P is trying to create a more realistic, involved story.

The Twist was Flavor - no impact on the story - but still people camp out on this point.

Many of these people are the same ones who choose to have Dylan spy on the ladies during Yoga, say that this makes Dylan immature and unlikeable, and ignore the choice L&P gave each of us at the beginning of the Yoga event - spy or... Don't spy.

If you make an immature choice for Dylan - why would you possibly then use it to say you are justified in saying he is still making bad choices?

Again... check the mirror for the person making the choice.

 

[PaxHadrian17]

Completely removed, yes, including the images and code concerning the Twist from the v0.100 update. Which for something that doesn't even effect the Sophia/Dylan route (it doesn't happen if Sophia is still doing Aiden's tasks), is a bit of overkill.

Alley Cat - this response from you surprised me!

You quote code and individual word choices more than anyone on this forum.

Why would L&P leave in code and imagery that has no place in his creation?

He said he would remove it and he did - basic code house cleaning - nothing more than that.

 

[Alley_Cat]

Alley Cat - this response from you surprised me!

You quote code and individual word choices more than anyone on this forum.

Why would L&P leave in code and imagery that has no place in his creation?

He said he would remove it and he did - basic code house cleaning - nothing more than that.

I was meaning that deciding to remove the twist that is as you put it "flavor" that is overkill, not that removing it once he decided to was.

Are you for or against removal of the Twist?

 

[Kz87]

Correct me if I am wrong, for Sophia to have sexy scenes with Ellie she has to do something with someone else. To get the 1st shower scene she has to kiss Patricia, for the 2nd - kiss Julia. I guess for 3rd interaction between mother and daughter the catalyst would be Natalie?

 

[PaxHadrian17]

I was meaning that deciding to remove the twist that is as you put it "flavor" that is overkill, not that removing it once he decided to was.

Are you for or against removal of the Twist?

I'm fine with removing the twist and I even offered a way (Patreon post) L&P could have done it differently - he just chose to go a different way - his creation - his choice.



If the twist had been Ellie making this deal with Aiden and we discovered it when Sophia was spying on Ellie and Julia, I would have wanted the twist removed.

Those who dislike Dylan simply used it as their rallying cry for why it should be left in - which would then be justification to complain about EVERY neutral or positive interaction Sophia or Ellie had with Dylan for the rest of the VN.

There is no way to maintain a realistic journey with erotic growth between Sophia and anyone who did that!


The truth is - Liam's gambling issue and betting the house/putting the entire family at risk was downplayed by L&P in a very unrealistic fashion but there is no hue and cry for Sophia to force Liam to move to the office and leave her bed unattended... Let's be honest - how many who dislike Dylan would want him to have another way to get closer to Sophia (and this would certainly provide an opening)?

I don't see L&P as a professional writer.

He is a one man shop trying to develop every aspect of AWAM and this plot device didn't work the way L&P intended - per L&P. I think he is doing a great job considering all the different aspects of the AWAM story/creation he is trying to manage.

I recommended that L&P find a trusted confidant who had some writing skills and have that person provide a second set of eyes for future revs to avoid this kind of miss.

He is adding in help with translating and proofreading so perhaps this kind of feedback can come from those supporting him this way.

 

[Alley_Cat]

I'm fine with removing the twist and I even offered a way (Patreon post) L&P could have done it differently - he just chose to go a different way - his creation - his choice.

View attachment 977893

If the twist had been Ellie making this deal with Aiden and we discovered it when Sophia was spying on Ellie and Julia, I would have wanted the twist removed.

Those who dislike Dylan simply used it as their rallying cry for why it should be left in - which would then be justification to complain about EVERY neutral or positive interaction Sophia or Ellie had with Dylan for the rest of the VN.

There is no way to maintain a realistic journey with erotic growth between Sophia and anyone who did that!


The truth is - Liam's gambling issue and betting the house/putting the entire family at risk was downplayed by L&P in a very unrealistic fashion but there is no hue and cry for Sophia to force Liam to move to the office and leave her bed unattended... Let's be honest - how many who dislike Dylan would want him to have another way to get closer to Sophia and this would certainly provide an opening?

I don't see L&P as a professional writer.

He is a one man shop trying to develop every aspect of AWAM and this plot device didn't work the way L&P intended - per L&P. I think he is doing a great job considering all the different aspects of the AWAM story/creation he is trying to manage.

I recommended that L&P find a trusted confidant who had some writing skills and have that person provide a second set of eyes for future revs to avoid this kind of miss.

He is adding in help with translating and proofreading so perhaps this kind of feedback can come from those supporting him this way.

I believe L&P has also said those on the Dylan route but chose the boarding school route are for those who have already chosen to put an end to the Sophia/Dylan path, but that it opens up Amber/Dylan, and that the Twist was to have no effect whatsoever on those on the Sophia/Dylan path that choose to accept Aiden's tasks and that for all intents and purposes Aiden is the sole instigator of the blackmail.

 

[Bane71]

I am imagining how much fun. Sophia will do Dylan teasing like this
View attachment 977975

No, she's going to tease the football team like that.