VN Ren'Py A Wife and Mother [v0.211] [Lust & Passion]

[Hlextor]

There was even a post from a patron about how L&P has lost all his credibility, since he's willing to change the story to suit a minority of his patrons (around at most 30%)

This also does not correspond to the truth! It was an individual who claimed this. And we are definitely not the minority. The minority are the Dylan haters. Did he lose Pledger with that? He has won me for example with it!

 

[Hlextor]

But it appears to be a snap decision made a few days after the release with no time given for even patrons on lower tiers to have played the update.

And another nonsense from you! You don't seriously believe that L&P wouldn't have removed the twist if numerous people hadn't commented negatively on it. He confirmed to me that it was more or less a storm of indignation! Initially he was also against the removal. Only later after many objections did he relent.

 

[Alley_Cat]

This also does not correspond to the truth! It was an individual who claimed this. And we are definitely not the minority. The minority are the Dylan haters. Did he lose Pledger with that? He has won me for example with it!

I read the post you're probably referring to, and the math is pretty simple. Take the number of people who voted for Dylan as their favourite character, which is around 350. Divide that by the number of patrons, which at the time of release was 1348. Which results in 26%, so a little more than 1 in 4. A minority. And that assumes that every Dylan fan opposed the Twist.

 

[yihman1]

The twist could work as it was written, but it would permanently alter Dylan to be a psychopath.

If the twist came earlier before Dylan sexualized Sophia a number of times then it would have worked for Dylan not be psycho.

To determine Dylan's level of psychopathy when judging his Twist path you gotta add up his 2 possible motives. If motive 1 is the stronger he is not a psycho. If motive 2 is the stronger he is a psycho.

Motive 1 = Help Sophia with midlife crisis (The more noble Intended motive)

Motive 2 = A More Sexual Sophia (Unintended selfish motive that feels stronger)

If it happened earlier, and Sophia had shown more signs of a midlife crisis and Dylan more signs of trying to get her out of that it then it could have worked as intended... The problem is it came later than it should have and Dylan did not get enough of the "Here let me help you with your midlife crisis" subtext. So it felt like Motive 2 was the stronger of the 2.

Another unintended consequence of the twist is that it lets Aiden off of the hook to some degree. It wasn't even his idea and he was less of a bully.

It was not executed as intended, so it was cut. Nothing wrong with that a lot of big movies have deleted scenes and alternate endings. He misjudged that writing point and it happens to the best of us. That's why pencils have erasers.

 

[Hlextor]

I read the post you're probably referring to, and the math is pretty simple. Take the number of people who voted for Dylan as their favourite character, which is around 350. Divide that by the number of patrons, which at the time of release was 1348. Which results in 26%, so a little more than 1 in 4. A minority. And that assumes that every Dylan fan opposed the Twist.

Your calculation does not add up! It is not only patreons who can write to him!? His email address is not a secret. I was not a Patreon at that time either.

 

[Old Dog]

I didn't see that many patron posts complaining about the "Twist" but I did see people asking what the twist is and how to see it.
They did call for poll on whether or not to remove the twist but the dev decided against it.
So I guess he must of got a lot of e-mails

 

[Hlextor]

So I guess he must of got a lot of e-mails

Yes

 

[lockerxx]

what Twist was so bad.

 

[Old Dog]

If the dev wanted to know the true feeling of his patrons he should of held a poll when asked by his patrons,they are the ones that count not non patrons.
It was only after he had a discussion with a friend about the twist that he decided to remove the twist

 

[Hlextor]

There are some people here who talk pointless and haters wants Dylan to be completely removed from the story. I suggest you ignore them

I know. I've thought about ignoring dog and cat before. But why? Sometimes they write interesting posts. What just bothers me is that they don't deviate one millimeter from their negative attitude towards Dylan and always talking bad about him. But I assume that this will change in the near future.

 

[PaxHadrian17]

I read the post you're probably referring to, and the math is pretty simple. Take the number of people who voted for Dylan as their favourite character, which is around 350. Divide that by the number of patrons, which at the time of release was 1348. Which results in 26%, so a little more than 1 in 4. A minority. And that assumes that every Dylan fan opposed the Twist.

I understand how statistics work - and there are a variety of ways to have numbers 'tell' a story.

For those who like to quote the favorite character poll as gospel, then consider this:

Wouldn't the number of fans making Dylan their favorite character establish the bottom limit to those who wanted the twist removed?

This means that we assume that every person who says that Dylan is their favorite character = supports removing the twist.

The actual number of Patreons who would like the twist to be removed must be some number > the number of Patreons who selected Dylan as their favorite.

Those who dislike Dylan are making a false assumption (since we are using this poll as our basis for the assessment) that EVERY Patreon who did not select Dylan as his/her favorite wanted the twist to remain.

That is a non sequitur!

One could make the argument that 50% of those who selected other characters as their favorite also supported the removal of the twist. This would quite obviously put the % of remove the twist > % of do not remove the twist.



Since the poll was not - Do you approve of removing the twist yes/no, all anyone can do is spin the favorite character poll the way they want.

But, from a statistics perspective, if 1/3 or more of those who selected non-Dylan characters as their favorites supported removing the twist, then that would give us > 50% of the Patreons that supported removing the twist.

 

[pooya021]

hi guys I have a theory about sophia's odd behavior
1-dylan's door was open
2-sophia wonder why she is so horny
I think dylan drugged sophia because he wants take a shower with her
(sorry for my weak english skill)

 

[Old Dog]

I know. I've thought about ignoring dog and cat before. But why? Sometimes they write interesting posts. What just bothers me is that they don't deviate one millimeter from their negative attitude towards Dylan and always talking bad about him. But I assume that this will change in the near future.

I have backed up Dylan as when when he did the fashion show/breakfast in bed was a well thought out idea by him.
Unless he starts thinking with his head instead of his dick he will continue to fumble with Sophia and be seen as this needy desperate kid.
I have nothing personal again him I just wish he would use a different approach.
Ellie is manipulating
Sam is sly and cunning
Zac is cautious unsure
Dylan is a bull in a china shop.
IF/when Dylan changes his approach I will change my attitude.
Calling Dylan the Pygmy is just a bit of fun that some fans don't like.

 

[Alley_Cat]

There are some people here who talk pointless and haters wants Dylan to be completely removed from the story. I suggest you ignore them

Who is arguing that Dylan should be removed from the story? If anything I'm arguing that the Twist allows for a more depth in Dylan's character than just him having the hots for his mother. With the Twist he showed he was not only able to engage with an enemy, which was a problem I had with him pre-Twist, but that when things didn't go as planned, he had the courage to admit he made a mistake. With the Twist I was actually starting to find him to be an interesting character and a shame we'll never see where it would have lead.

As I've said before, Dylan is still a Parker, and I want him to do well. But part of that is making mistakes and learning from them. And while yes, on the boarding school route it severely compromised the relationship between Sophia and Dylan, and stops any chance of Sophia/Dylan, there was and still is no chance of that on the boarding school route anyway.

what Twist was so bad.

This is part of what I don't understand, because to my knowledge L&P stated it had no effect on the plot played by the people that wanted it removed.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

Aiden's exact words were "I don't know, man. That whole thing is so fucked up somehow!"

And as for it not making sense, like Ellie's revelations there are clues throughout the game. Even the dishwasher breaking is suspicious, as it only happens on the Dylan route, and only after Sophia rejects the bikini deal and Dylan's offer to wash the dished, because they have a working dishwasher. That Dylan hasn't done anything yet without wanting something in return is another example. And his shyness results in him making deals like for Sophia to wear bikinis more, instead of Ellie's approach on day 3 of having the confidence to just say she thinks Sophia is hot: "I mean, even though I was little back then, I understood that my mom must be really hot if she got more attention than any other woman around! And you still are!"

The clearest example of Dylan's nature comes from the soccer match. L&P himself calls Dylan's kiss insidious. That Dylan doesn't ask for a kiss on the lips like Ellie does, but does it before Sophia can react. Doesn't apologise either like Emma does.

I'd say that what Ellie's doing could be seen as "insidious" in some way too. Both kids are, in some way, manipulating their mother because of the desires they have for her. With Ellie, it seems more harmless because she's a girl, that there's almost this natural female connection and bond of sisterhood that she's playing on which makes her actions seem less creepy. She also advances things quicker with Sophia because of this, because the fact that this is between 2 women means Sophia has less of a guard up than she would with a man since the general perception would be that men are more unscrupulous and "insidious" in their behaviour.

So it's not necessarily about Ellie having more confidence in her advances towards Sophia, but simply that Sophia feels comfortable with it because she's a girl and she views it less suspiciously.

I think it was a bad idea to remove twist. It gave perfect reason to get rid of Dylan and it only appears on path where you reject his attempts.

But it was still true for the other path even if you didn't see it because you didn't send him to boarding to school. He was still responsible for it and that was the problem.

Whereas for AWAM, we're still arguing over the nature of the bonus storyline. For me it's just about the relationship between Dylan and Ellie, but for Dylan fans it's setting up Dylan/Ellie.

And why not? We know that Ellie and Dylan are going to eventually have a sexual relationship with Sophia, so why not with each other as well? It seems to me that plenty of seeds have been planted for it and the fact that there is this side event where the objective is to bring them closer together seems the most obvious one because in doing so, it's likely to be so that neither would balk at the idea of having sex with each other, particularly Ellie, if their relationship becomes less antagonistic and more friendly/caring.

He'll never be excluded from the game, nor should he be. For those that like his content, there's the Aiden route. And with points in Dylan, even apparently Dylan/Amber on the boarding school route.

What is objectionable though, is for those that have chosen not to play his content to be forced to anyway, as what happened in the Yoga event. Sophia could have left him in the city and picked him up after the yoga class. Would have only taken a few extra renders of Dylan not being in the car and at the entrance to the studio. And those wanting to play the Dylan content could still have done that happily.

Every other character, if you don't have the points or the required flags, you don't get the content, which is as it should be.

I think Dylan being at the yoga event was fine, but we didn't need to see it from his perspective. Instead, it should have all just happened from Sophia's perspective and certain things that happen on the Dylan side, like him joining in and getting teased by Patricia, should have happened here with Sophia catching sight of it and having her both wonder what Patricia is up to and feeling something close to jealousy at seeing her teasing him.

This would have been much better for advancing Sophia and Dylan's relationship.

Why would anyone complain? It would only be on playthrough of people rejecting Dylan and doubt they would complain if he was completely gone.

Again, you just see it on that path but it doesn't mean he wasn't responsible on the other path because he still was.

If the twist had been Ellie making this deal with Aiden and we discovered it when Sophia was spying on Ellie and Julia, I would have wanted the twist removed.

Exactly. If something was revealed about Ellie doing something grossly and secretly manipulative to make Sophia do things with her, I'm sure loads of people would rage about that, but when it comes to Dylan some people seem to either not get it or think it was perfectly fine. Total double standard.

I believe L&P has also said those on the Dylan route but chose the boarding school route are for those who have already chosen to put an end to the Sophia/Dylan path, but that it opens up Amber/Dylan, and that the Twist was to have no effect whatsoever on those on the Sophia/Dylan path that choose to accept Aiden's tasks and that for all intents and purposes Aiden is the sole instigator of the blackmail.

But that's ridiculous, because what's true on one path is also true on the other, so Aiden wasn't the sole instigator and even if you never found out on the non-boarding school path, it was still the truth of how that whole thing got started.

Again, this is why you can't reveal something like this on one path and not the other because then it ruins the non-reveal path. Even if it wasn't going to have any further impact on the story, it inadvertently did by ruining Dylan's character and tainting his progress with Sophia on the non-boarding school path.

Another unintended consequence of the twist is that it lets Aiden off of the hook to some degree. It wasn't even his idea and he was less of a bully.

1000% this. Not only did the twist ruin Dylan's character, it made Aiden out to not be as much of a bastard as he was perceived to be. Sure, he took Dylan's deal and went further with it for his own pleasure, but him making a deal with Dylan made him a weaker villain character because it wasn't him doing it of his own volition.

 

[Hlextor]

Again, this is why you can't reveal something like this on one path and not the other because then it ruins the non-reveal path. Even if it wasn't going to have any further impact on the story, it inadvertently did by ruining Dylan's character and tainting his progress with Sophia on the non-boarding school path.

That is exactly what I mean! And that is not understood by dog and cat. Why? If it would have stayed with the twist and ended in this path anyway with Sophia/Dylan. We/I would have to think every time in an event with Dylan.... does this have anything to do with Aiden? Is Dylan up to evil? Or is he just doing this out of love for his mother?

 

[Holy Bacchus]

This is part of what I don't understand, because to my knowledge L&P stated it had no effect on the plot played by the people that wanted it removed.

Except that it sort of does. For those that didn't want to send Dylan away because they wanted to keep advancing that relationship, they would have to endure something that was started by the very character they wanted to not send away. The effect of knowing this, which could easily be gained by doing a different playthrough or reading about it on a forum such as this, is that it taints the perception of Dylan for those playing on that path where they kept him around, and so those who were rooting for this relationship but have that burden of knowledge were now suddenly no longer interested in or at least conflicted with continuing this relationship path.

It turned people against Dylan to the point where interest in his relationship was and could have continued to trend downwards, and considering he's a main character and one of Sophia's main relationship paths, that's not something you want to see happen, so it was better for L&P to nip it in the bud like they did before it got worse. Remember that Dylan placed as the most popular character when L&P did that poll last year. If they kept in that twist and conducted that poll again, he would have undoubtedly fallen very far down and that's likely why L&P took out that godawful twist.

 

[abram1]

I understand how statistics work - and there are a variety of ways to have numbers 'tell' a story.

One could make the argument that 50% of those who selected other characters as their favorite also supported the removal of the twist. This would quite obviously put the % of remove the twist > % of do not remove the twist.

Since the poll was not - Do you approve of removing the twist yes/no, all anyone can do is spin the favorite character poll the way they want.

But, from a statistics perspective, if 1/3 or more of those who selected non-Dylan characters as their favorites supported removing the twist, then that would give us > 50% of the Patreons that supported removing the twist.

The very first sentence tells it all. "there are a variety of ways to have numbers 'tell' a story", do I need to add anything else to this?

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics. What I see in front of me are the far-fetched facts. Why only 50% of non-Dylan fanbase supporterts voted for the twist elimination and not 100%? What if none of them have chosen it as they are mostly playing different paths or merely don't care about Dylan in the first place?

What we know is that the backlash was real, it backfired at L&P so he had to undertake extreme measures by getting rid of that path. Everything else is pure speculation and that's why all of us are here, to pick this game to pieces.

 

[Old Dog]

That is exactly what I mean! And that is not understood by dog and cat. Why? If it would have stayed with the twist and ended in this path anyway with Sophia/Dylan. We/I would have to think every time in an event with Dylan.... does this have anything to do with Aiden? Is Dylan up to evil? Or is he just doing this out of love for his mother?

I am more about Dylans attempt to seduce Sophia than anything else.
It doesn't really matter if they "Twist" stayed or not because the storyline ends Sophia's and Dylan's storyline as it is more about Dylan's attitude towards Amber.
So all you had to do was keep on accepting Aidens deal and Dylan would not be sent away so no boarding school route so no twist.

 

[Hlextor]

So all you had to do was keep on accepting Aidens deal and not send Dylan away.

Yes, dog. But knowing that Dylan set up this deal/twist with Aiden is the problem! You don't have any faith in Dylan anymore. And Sophia doesn't anymore anyway. So how can Dylan still be having sex with his mother after it came out? That's not real, is it? Sophia would have to have lost trust in Dylan forever. Maybe talk, yes. It's her son. But sex with him? Never ever.