VN Ren'Py A Wife and Mother [v0.211] [Lust & Passion]

[Blurpee69]

Well, I guess we'll have to disagree on that one. I can't imagine what a story between Dylan and Ellie would look like, told solely from Sophia's perspective. Even more, I think that L&P should definitely not do without this story, because it, at the latest as soon as Sophia gets to know about it, allows for incredibly interesting story twists.

There are tons of narrative tools and techniques that can be used to infer that something is going on with Dylan and Ellie. One that I literally put about 30 seconds of thought into;

Sophia notices at the dinner table that Dylan and Ellie aren't bickering as much. Option: Sophia thinks to herself "That's nice" and nothing further comes from it, or "I should ask if anything is going on" Sophia asks her kids.

If Sophia asks, the kids can play dumb or be coy about it, which peaks Sophia's interest more and maybe she does a little investigative work. Scene of her standing on the balcony and overhears a conversation between Dylan and Ellie and learns why they're getting along better.

It plays into her being an caring and available mother to her kids, it empowers her making her a more active protagonist, and it conveys what their story is without spending unnecessary time away from Sophia's PoV.

 

[XaGnard]

There are tons of narrative tools and techniques that can be used to infer that something is going on with Dylan and Ellie. One that I literally put about 30 seconds of thought into;

Sophia notices at the dinner table that Dylan and Ellie aren't bickering as much. Option: Sophia thinks to herself "That's nice" and nothing further comes from it, or "I should ask if anything is going on" Sophia asks her kids.

The event you describe here only works properly when the player would have seen what is going on between Dylan and Ellie, but Sophia doesn't know about it yet.

No, something like this needs more than just a discussion at the kitchen table.

If Sophia asks, the kids can play dumb or be coy about it, which peaks Sophia's interest more and maybe she does a little investigative work. Scene of her standing on the balcony and overhears a conversation between Dylan and Ellie and learns why they're getting along better.

There is then completely missing the thrill between Dylan and Ellie, their efforts to keep it secret, etc. etc. It would be a boring story.

It plays into her being an caring and available mother to her kids, it empowers her making her a more active protagonist, and it conveys what their story is without spending unnecessary time away from Sophia's PoV.

I have mentioned it before, nothing is as nonsensical as the requirement to tell a story only from Sophia PoV. Why replace all the exciting events with boring discussions and inner dialogues when you can actually show them. Sorry, but I think here the idea to cut AWAM goes too far. Especially when you consider that there is so much unnecessary content in the game, with characters that really only Sophia knows and therefore have no effect on the main story.

 

[lockerxx]

off-topic did L&P finish remaking the first day of the game?

 

[Blurpee69]

The event you describe here only works properly when the player would have seen what is going on between Dylan and Ellie, but Sophia doesn't know about it yet.

No, something like this needs more than just a discussion at the kitchen table.




There is then completely missing the thrill between Dylan and Ellie, their efforts to keep it secret, etc. etc. It would be a boring story.




I have mentioned it before, nothing is as nonsensical as the requirement to tell a story only from Sophia PoV. Why replace all the exciting events with boring discussions and inner dialogues when you can actually show them. Sorry, but I think here the idea to cut AWAM goes too far. Especially when you consider that there is so much unnecessary content in the game, with characters that really only Sophia knows and therefore have no effect on the main story.

I'm at a loss for words here. I'm sorry if I'm making assumptions here, but I feel like you often times read one part of my responses and get focused on that rather than taking in my point as a whole. In this case you seem very focused on PoV, and I'm focused on trimming the narrative fat from the story. I don't mean this as an attack or an insult, I just don't know where our breakdown in philosophy is occuring here.

The whole point of that quickly thought out example, is it shows that Sophia is shrewd enough to notice a difference in her childrens behavior, inquire about, then investigate the change. It sets up a slight mystery plot, doesn't have to be a major one that can get us the viewers a little more intrigued about what's going on with her children's lives. Then we can slowly, or quickly, unravel that little mystery together along with Sophia. It was a quick little two scene example I slapped together that can lead all sorts of different places depending on other choices Sophia makes either in between those situation or after. It cuts a lot of fat from the narrative while still achieving the same results as what we already have.

And sometimes, it's better to let the reader / viewer's imagination take the reigns and fill in the blanks, not everything has to be shown.

 

[XaGnard]

I'm at a loss for words here. I'm sorry if I'm making assumptions here, but I feel like you often times read one part of my responses and get focused on that rather than taking in my point as a whole. In this case you seem very focused on PoV, and I'm focused on trimming the narrative fat from the story. I don't mean this as an attack or an insult, I just don't know where our breakdown in philosophy is occuring here.

The whole point of that quickly thought out example, is it shows that Sophia is shrewd enough to notice a difference in her childrens behavior, inquire about, then investigate the change. It sets up a slight mystery plot, doesn't have to be a major one that can get us the viewers a little more intrigued about what's going on with her children's lives. Then we can slowly, or quickly, unravel that little mystery together along with Sophia. It was a quick little two scene example I slapped together that can lead all sorts of different places depending on other choices Sophia makes either in between those situation or after. It cuts a lot of fat from the narrative while still achieving the same results as what we already have.

And sometimes, it's better to let the reader / viewer's imagination take the reigns and fill in the blanks, not everything has to be shown.

No, no, I have read what you have written and I think I have understood what you want to say. It's just that I have a different opinion. In addition, I am often a bit clumsy in expressing what I want to say. This is even more difficult because English is only my second language.

Back to the topic. I know that your approach would also tell a story, but, i think, it would do so not as well and without the excitement that a Dylan/Ellie/Sophia arc could offer. Just take the story between Dylan and Amber in the pool for example. The whole thing only becomes so good because Sophia and Sam have no idea about it. Although Sophia wonders, she can't and shouldn't know yet. Nevertheless, the player must know it, because otherwise it would have been a much too boring event. As I said, it's better to show something than just to let Sophia think about it.

 

[JorellMartis]

So she's just going to tease Harris that's it, no touching nothing, just a high?

 

[JorellMartis]

I got my hopes up for no reason

 

[Notretsam]

So thinking but if you remove all the stuff with Dylan and Amber, Dylan's perspective at the shower, Dylan's stuff with Marie, all Dylan's stuff with Ellie, and anything else that doesn't involve Sophia.

where would L&P be on the schedule?

Looking at it here, update 9 and 10 would be removed as it's Dylan-only events and no Sophia.

Think it's Safe to say the next update and update 8 would be out, as the time spent on the stuff I mentioned above being removed goes into updates 7 and 8.

So most likely be on day 14-morning updates with Sophia and Ellie, but since they're very small, maybe even could be at the noon event, which is the side job.

Just shows you how all the Dylan-only event stuff has slowed down things.

 

[Dr.SigmundFap]

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[XaGnard]

So thinking but if you remove all the stuff with Dylan and Amber, Dylan's perspective at the shower, Dylan's stuff with Marie, all Dylan's stuff with Ellie, and anything else that doesn't involve Sophia.

where would L&P be on the schedule?

Looking at it here, update 9 and 10 would be removed as it's Dylan-only events and no Sophia.

Think it's Safe to say the next update and update 8 would be out, as the time spent on the stuff I mentioned above being removed goes into updates 7 and 8.

So most likely be on day 14-morning updates with Sophia and Ellie, but since they're very small, maybe even could be at the noon event, which is the side job.

Just shows you how all the Dylan-only event stuff has slowed down things.

Saving time is important, but only if the game does not lose quality. That's why I keep coming back to the side jobs as an example of elements that are easy to cut out of the game, because they're just an extra story, so to speak, but they don't really help the main plot.

Dylan and Ellie on the other hand need depth, as this supports the plot and thus makes the game qualitatively better. Don't you understand that Sophia role as wife and mother is the key in this game. The more L&P fleshes out Dylan and Ellie as well, the more the emotional investment in all this charakters (including Sophia) will benefit.

Furthermore, it is often easier to show complex relationships by example as just to describe them. For example, can you remember the event on the beach. Here, L&P did a really good job of describing the starting conditions of both the relationship between Dylan and Sophia and between Dylan and Ellie. Both have developed further in the meantime, but nevertheless the knowledge of the past is important to be able to assess the implications of the events that may happen (between Dylan and Ellie and also between Sophia and Dylan) in the future. A good story simply needs a certain complexity. You have to be able to understand the reactions and emotions of the people involved.

Even though L&P still makes many mistakes, i think, he also does a lot of things right. That's one of the reasons why his story stands out so well from so many games here that are just garbage. It's not just Sophia, it's that L&P manages to integrate Sophia into a world with other people that are more than just a facade.

 

[Radoslaw Wolf]

off-topic did L&P finish remaking the first day of the game?

Not when I replayed it last time. But hey, worked as a good excuse for a bit.

 

[Alley_Cat]

Saving time is important, but only if the game does not lose quality. That's why I keep coming back to the side jobs as an example of elements that are easy to cut out of the game, because they're just an extra story, so to speak, but they don't really help the main plot.

Dylan and Ellie on the other hand need depth, as this supports the plot and thus makes the game qualitatively better. Don't you understand that Sophia role as wife and mother is the key in this game. The more L&P fleshes out Dylan and Ellie as well, the more the emotional investment in all this charakters (including Sophia) will benefit.

Furthermore, it is often easier to show complex relationships by example as just to describe them. For example, can you remember the event on the beach. Here, L&P did a really good job of describing the starting conditions of both the relationship between Dylan and Sophia and between Dylan and Ellie. Both have developed further in the meantime, but nevertheless the knowledge of the past is important to be able to assess the implications of the events that may happen (between Dylan and Ellie and also between Sophia and Dylan) in the future. A good story simply needs a certain complexity. You have to be able to understand the reactions and emotions of the people involved.

Even though L&P still makes many mistakes, i think, he also does a lot of things right. That's one of the reasons why his story stands out so well from so many games here that are just garbage. It's not just Sophia, it's that L&P manages to integrate Sophia into a world with other people that are more than just a facade.

Except that the Beach event doesn't flesh out the story between Dylan and Ellie. It was supposed to, but then L&P decided otherwise. The beach event, particularly the masturbation scene is only concerned with Dylan.

The bonus storyline which I think you're alluding to, doesn't even further the story with Sophia - it specifically excludes her..

 

[Dom Toretto]

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U forgot Mr Bennett BTW

 

[Bishop Robert]

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Zac and Mr. Murray are deserve better.

 

[tofhdns]

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Let's take a look at how foolish the developer is behaving and how they're making fun of the consumer.

Although Sam's story is in the spotlight, the consumers still want to see more of Sophia and Dylan's events.

Ava's children are ranked higher than Alicia, Claire, and Natalie.

Even the unnamed thugs outnumber Claire, Vicky, Marie, and Julia.

The money is being paid by men but the developer is making scenes for women.

The porn content that men desire is always the same.

I once suspected that the developer was a woman.

Let's get back on track and pick up the pace.

Also, if you believe that people voted for Dylan's exclusive storyline, then you should interpret the other votes the same way.

However, that doesn't make sense.

And if players only want to see Dylan's exclusive story, that means the developer made the game incorrectly.

 

[Talcum Powder]

(emphasis added)

I have mentioned it before, nothing is as nonsensical as the requirement to tell a story only from Sophia PoV. Why replace all the exciting events with boring discussions and inner dialogues when you can actually show them. Sorry, but I think here the idea to cut AWAM goes too far. Especially when you consider that there is so much unnecessary content in the game, with characters that really only Sophia knows and therefore have no effect on the main story.

You've exposed yourself as someone who doesn't really understand the discussion. And I mean that sincerely. In the context of AWAM, how can any content happening in Sophia's perspective not be part of the main story?

It is just the opposite: direct interaction with Sophia should be the only focus - everything from the wife and mother's perspective IS the main story, and anything that happens outside of her point of view should be something she discovers through any number of story telling techniques, conversation being just one option.

One example is Sam by the pool, telling Sophia about his dream. We didn't need a scene of Sam brushing his teeth and getting ready for bed, saying goodnight to his parents, kneeling by his bed and saying his prayers before rubbing one out to thoughts of Sophia in a sheer night gown. We got the eroticism and we learned the extent to which Sam is lusting after Sophia while maintaining our main character perspective.

Another example I have used in the past: Dylan and Emma are dating, Sophia need only see them in the back yard being affectionate, or they walk through the livingroom while she's relaxing and Dylan says something stupid, like "Oh, hey mom, we're going up to my room to study" and Sophia thinks to herself "I hope he knows how to use a condom". We don't need to see anything more than that.

As has been suggested before by other great luminaries of this thread, if he needs non-incest Dylan content to keep up the DoL facade, then hand that off to another developer - provide them with assets but maybe not the AWAM version of Dylan, give them the hulking 24-year-old version.

 

[XaGnard]

You've exposed yourself as someone who doesn't really understand the discussion. And I mean that sincerely. In the context of AWAM, how can any content happening in Sophia's perspective not be part of the main story?

The whole thing is quite simple. The game is called "A Wife and Mother". Even the first scene of the game starts with Sophia in her role as wife and mother (in the event on the plane). Quickly followed by the scene in the car where Dylan and Ellie's relationship is introduced, again with Sophia in her role as the mother. Contrary to what some here are trying to suggest, Dylan and Ellie are part of the main story. It's not just about Sophia. It is about Sophia as "A Wife and Mother".

One example is Sam by the pool, telling Sophia about his dream. We didn't need a scene of Sam brushing his teeth and getting ready for bed, saying goodnight to his parents, kneeling by his bed and saying his prayers before rubbing one out to thoughts of Sophia in a sheer night gown. We got the eroticism and we learned the extent to which Sam is lusting after Sophia while maintaining our main character perspective.

Sam is important for the story because he is Dylan's competitor, so to speak. Starting with the basketball game, continuing with the video game, etc, etc. It's Dylan/Sophia/Sam/Amber interwoven in the main story. Think about it. In the scene between Sam and Sophia, it's also about who else is in the house and that maybe someone is watching them through the window. Currently it is Dylan with Amber and Sam with Sophia, but at some point one in this group will gain knowledge beyond his own actions. That's what made this events exciting and that is what create an intriguing story. At some point, you should understand that Sam's story is part of Dylan's story and therefore part in the Story about Sophia as mother.

As has been suggested before by other great luminaries of this thread, if he needs non-incest Dylan content to keep up the DoL facade, then hand that off to another developer - provide them with assets but maybe not the AWAM version of Dylan, give them the hulking 24-year-old version.

If the whole thing were so simple, others would have already done it. However, it is quite obvious that although there are a lot of games on F95, only a fraction of them are really good. As I said, I think L&P still makes a lot of mistakes, but at the same time he is also better in many ways than some other developers here.

 

[jamdan]

To reframe the "main story" stuff. The main story in this game is Sophia's corruption. There is no overarching plot.

To me, the main characters should be: Sophia (MC), Dylan, Ellie and Liam. These are the core characters of Sophia's life and should get most of the games content. Ellie and Dylan should get roughly the same amount of content. And Liam follows in distant 4th place for GW content every so often. After them (and before Liam, probably), you can have Sam and Aiden's blackmail to round out the main cast.

On Ellie/Dylan specifically, people complain (and understandability) that Dylan is the 2nd MC. But Ellie is too. She has routes and LI's like Dylan does. Just because LP doesn't say she is an MC too, doesn't make it so. As we know, what LP says and doesn't say sometimes aren't reliable.

And this is where LP bit off too much. Neither of them should have their own LI's, or at least no complicated branches for them. Same goes for all the other characters. Ellie has a BF, things with Jules (the girl she kissed?). Dylan has Emma and the girl from the last update (I already forgot her name?). That's too much going on. At best, they get 1 of their own LI's if they aren't with Sophia. Not 2-3.

I've never bought into the idea LP "milks" or doesn't work hard. You don't make a higher quality game and release it on a regular basis and not work hard. If anything, he makes his job harder than it should be because he keeps adding more stuff to do and keep track of. LP has continually added too many characters and too many routes.

By the looks of things, Mr.Harris may be the latest addition. Remember, this event is meant to be about Sophia & Dylan. Mr.Harris should've been used as a convenient way to occupy Liam. Not a mechanism for Sophia to collect more Filthy Points or start a new mini-route.

 

[Bishop Robert]

End of the day (I don't by any means mean to beat a dead horse here) any complaining about other characters beside Sophia getting a POV wouldn't be a thing if the development speed was much quicker.

I don't exactly mind if we were to get an update where we witness Dylan banging Marie or Ellie eating out Little Julie, I'm on the side that's for those events but totally understand any frustration towards those because it gets in the way of Sophias development in corruption.

 

[tofhdns]

Dylan's problem is that it delays Sophia's story.

I think six years has waited long enough.