VN Ren'Py A Wife and Mother [v0.220] [Lust & Passion]

[ashitanojoe]

Of.. course?
How is this news? They basically pay themselves then Patreon takes their cut, they keep around 90%.
Suddendly the creator looks much more legit and in demand.

I know that you are the guy of the conspiracy theories, but think about this: Why do you know about Icstor? The answer is simple, his game and him are immensely popular. His thread here is the second most viewed one. Don't you think that it makes sense that he can have more than 5000 patrons? Besides, you are forgetting that he already finished a game, he isn't a newbie, he has been in this for a long time. If he would have remained constant he could be near to DrPinkCake profit numbers, but he is very far, precisely for his lack of work.

 

[bluehound36]

That is per render not per month... Per month was $42,720 pre taxes.

He's not being paid by render though. He's being paid like every other dev on patreon is for his content, by monthly. For your logic to be fully accurate, he'd be making per render what he's making by the month or at least relatively close to it. That isn't happening though. Perhaps he's like other artists out there and does private commissions on the side maybe but that is his business and depending on the customer, the price of such commissions can and do vary.

 

[L&P's Father-in-Law]

I know that you are the guy of the conspiracy theories, but think about this: Why do you know about Icstor? The answer is simple, his game and him are immensely popular. His thread here is the most viewed one. Don't you think that it makes sense that he can have more than 5000 patrons? Besides, you are forgetting that he already finished a game, he isn't a newbie, he has been in this for a long time. If he would have remained constant he could be near to DrPinkCake profit numbers, but he is very far, precisely for his lack of work.

Which conspiracy theories? The forecasts on how L&Ps development would derail and now here we are with this mess of a development?

I'm not saying he (icstor) can't have thousands of patreons. What I am doing is talking about basic stuff that everyone does in business and social platforms, this isn't some conspiracy and if in 2022 you need to read this from some random online then maybe get some knowledge on how things work before calling someone "the guy of the conspiracy theories", specially the one who, about a year and a half ago, told everyone what is happening today.

 

[yihman1]

He's not being paid by render though. He's being paid like every other dev on patreon is for his content, by monthly. For your logic to be fully accurate, he'd be making per render what he's making by the month or at least relatively close to it. That isn't happening though. Perhaps he's like other artists out there and does private commissions on the side maybe but that is his business and depending on the customer, the price of such commissions can and do vary.

Of course Icstor is paid per month like everyone else... However if you count up the number of renders over a certain period of time you can convert that number into dollars per render.

To calculate dollars per render you take a time frame. In this case 2 years. or 24 months. Then you count up all the renders in that time frame. In this case 400 renders. Then take the total money earned. You Divide The total amount made by total renders. In this case $1,000,000 by 400. That's $2,500 for each and every render of which there were only 400 over a 24 month span.

I use "Dollars Per Render" To spot milkers. It is a useful number for that. If a person is making thousands of dollars per render... They might just be milking it...

 

[fortuna95]

Whats the quick info that he posted on his patreon page?

 

[bluehound36]

Of course Icstor is paid per month like everyone else... However if you count up the number of renders over a certain period of time you can convert that number into dollars per render.

To calculate dollars per render you take a time frame. In this case 2 years. or 24 months. Then you count up all the renders in that time frame. In this case 400 renders. Then take the total money earned. You Divide The total amount made by total renders. In this case $1,000,000 by 400. That's $2,500 for each and every render of which there were only 400 over a 24 month span.

I use "Dollars Per Render" To spot milkers. It is a useful number for that. If a person is making thousands of dollars per render... They might just be milking it...

If only that were the case. It's still flawed logic though. Lets just say for sake of argument that he was making bare minimum the 1.50 per month from all of his patrons which sit at 1,846 of them currently which can and does fluctuate by month. That only comes out to 33228 per year before taxes and patreon's cut. That's effectively what your typical low level department/assistant manager might make in most businesses. That really isn't as much as you might think but it is enough to live comfortably to a relative extent depending on nation so long as you can maintain that income over a long period of time. Seriously, if he was making a million bucks like you're trying to claim, i doubt he'd still being working on this game right now cause he'd have upwards of 4 million dollars by now based on your math. That's called fantasy for a reason. I'm talking about L&P which is who i thought you were talking about. Thank you for clarifying that you were referring to someone else cause apparently i missed one of your posts referring to Icstor. Either way though, devs do not make as much as you are thinking off of patreon. Not to that degree anyway. Everyone would be learning to do this stuff if that were the case.

 

[L&P's Father-in-Law]

View attachment 1671066

"My part of the update" lmao.
Can he tell us who's the other developer so we can subscribe to his patreon then?

 

[L&P's Father-in-Law]

If only that were the case. It's still flawed logic though. Lets just say for sake of argument that he was making bare minimum the 1.50 per month from all of his patrons which sit at 1,846 of them currently which can and does fluctuate by month. That only comes out to 33228 per year before taxes and patreon's cut. That's effectively what your typical low level department/assistant manager might make in most businesses. That really isn't as much as you might think but it is enough to live comfortably to a relative extent depending on nation so long as you can maintain that income over a long period of time. Seriously, if he was making a million bucks like you're trying to claim, i doubt he'd still being working on this game right now cause he'd have upwards of 4 million dollars by now based on your math. That's called fantasy for a reason.

He's talking about ICStor

 

[ashitanojoe]

Which conspiracy theories? The forecasts on how L&Ps development would derail and now here we are with this mess of a development?

I'm not saying he (icstor) can't have thousands of patreons. What I am doing is talking about basic stuff that everyone does in business and social platforms, this isn't some conspiracy and if in 2022 you need to read this from some random online then maybe get some knowledge on how things work before calling someone "the guy of the conspiracy theories", specially the one who, about a year and a half ago, told everyone what is happening today.

Me and some others have told you that L&P draining the development intentionally is absurd, being slow makes you earn less than being fast, you receive less support. How is that DecentMonkey has more patrons than L&P with a significant less popular game? Because he is fast and L&P not. I already have put the example of DreamNow, the guy achieved in one year what took L&P two in terms of patrons. Being fast is the best way to make money here.

 

[crabboid]

I think I might have come up with an addition to Patreon that would keep devs on a strict schedule, and potentially make them a lot of money: time-sensitive tips.

-I'm a comic creator who has a patreon
-I tell my patrons "Cyberforce #4 will be out by June 3rd, I promise."
-My page sets June 3rd as the hard release date
-In order to keep me on task/show appreciation/whatever, my patrons would have the option to give me a "tip" amount of their choosing on top of whatever they're already paying
-All that money gets put into a pool
-If I successfully meet that deadline, I get all the accumulated money in that pool
-If I fail to meet that deadline, everyone gets refunded whatever bonus money they paid, and I hang my head in shame

 

[Jonsnuu]

May be 2042.. But not sure about it..

to be correct it is 2032 lol

You're both wrong. What makes you think Sophia will ever get a sex scene with anyone else but her husband. At most she will give a blowjob to another character but we might not see that happen in our life. I'm sure the creator will pass this work down to his kids when they're adults and able to work on this too.

 

[yihman1]

I think I might have come up with an addition to Patreon that would keep devs on a strict schedule, and potentially make them a lot of money: time-sensitive tips.

-I'm a comic creator who has a patreon
-I tell my patrons "Cyberforce #4 will be out by June 3rd, I promise."
-My page sets June 3rd as the hard release date
-In order to keep me on task/show appreciation/whatever, my patrons would have the option to give me a "tip" amount of their choosing on top of whatever they're already paying
-All that money gets put into a pool
-If I successfully meet that deadline, I get all the accumulated money in that pool
-If I fail to meet that deadline, everyone gets refunded whatever bonus money they paid, and I hang my head in shame

That could work, but there is a major flaw to it that would make it not work so well...

In order to increase rate you just need to sacrafice "Quality" or "Quantity". Corners will be cut to make deadline if they become so important.

So of course more deadlines would be met, but at the cost of more bugs, and less photoshop time, and fewer renders ect. It will be smaller amount of content of worse quality.

It's idiotic for a developer to give any hard deadline of a release date unless they have at least a beta version of that update in hand, and I will explain why that is.

1) You have no control over real world events that can cause delays. You need surgery? Your power went out for a few days? You need to go to funeral? A pet dies? You have a guest staying from out of town for the weekend? These sorts of things and many more things can cause a delay. You can not predict them or prepare for them and they set you back in time... So, you would need to account for them before hand which most people wouldn't do.

2) If you miss a deadline it is only going to reflect poorly on you. That is a broken promise. Don't over promise and under deliver. It is better to under promise and over deliver.

3) Hitting a deadline like that doesn't make you look any better in comparison to missing it.

4) It's better to have a more relaxed working environment than to be worrying about a deadline. I need it done by the 5th! is a lot more demanding and stressful and less fun than, "Keep working at it get it done when you can." This would ruin things for a lot of devs. No dev wants it that strict.

As a Developer it is still good to set deadlines... INTERNAL DEADLINES! That you don't tell the public at all about. That way if you miss one because "Shit Happens"... At least I didn't break a promise. You work hard on it, and get it done when you can. Do the best you can.

 

[ancienregimele]

I think I might have come up with an addition to Patreon that would keep devs on a strict schedule, and potentially make them a lot of money: time-sensitive tips.

-I'm a comic creator who has a patreon
-I tell my patrons "Cyberforce #4 will be out by June 3rd, I promise."
-My page sets June 3rd as the hard release date
-In order to keep me on task/show appreciation/whatever, my patrons would have the option to give me a "tip" amount of their choosing on top of whatever they're already paying
-All that money gets put into a pool
-If I successfully meet that deadline, I get all the accumulated money in that pool
-If I fail to meet that deadline, everyone gets refunded whatever bonus money they paid, and I hang my head in shame

I've been saying for some time that a payment by results (PBR) system is required for a Patreon model no longer fit for purpose. Your scheme would be a relatively trauma-free step in that direction. Monies could be allowed to accumulate towards a bigger bonus day, or bonuses not earned could be given to charity, or reclaimed by patrons. It's a good idea for the incentive side of PBR. Problems arise with PBR, in terms of motivation, if & when any penalty elements come into play.

What you describe would be worth trying on its own, without a penalty clause, to see how it would work in practice, if only Patreon would consider some positive changes from the paying Patron's angle.

 

[yihman1]

I've been saying for some time that a payment by results (PBR) system is required for a Patreon model no longer fit for purpose. Your scheme would be a relatively trauma-free step in that direction. Monies could be allowed to accumulate towards a bigger bonus day, or bonuses not earned could be given to charity, or reclaimed by patrons. It's a good idea for the incentive side of PBR. Problems arise with PBR, in terms of motivation, if & when any penalty elements come into play.

What you describe would be worth trying on its own, without a penalty clause, to see how it would work in practice, if only Patreon would consider some positive changes from the paying Patron's angle.

Right, and devs would just make releases that are much shorter to hit that deadline. Problem solved free money!

It happens in other industries and it is called "

You must be registered to see the links

"

View attachment shrinkflation.webp

 

[ancienregimele]

That could work, but there is a major flaw to it that would make it not work so well...

In order to increase rate you just need to sacrafice "Quality" or "Quantity". Corners will be cut to make deadline if they become so important.

So of course more deadlines would be met, but at the cost of more bugs, and less photoshop time, and fewer renders ect. It will be smaller amount of content of worse quality.

It's idiotic for a developer to give any hard deadline of a release date unless they have at least a beta version of that update in hand, and I will explain why that is.

1) You have no control over real world events that can cause delays. You need surgery? Your power went out for a few days? You need to go to funeral? A pet dies? You have a guest staying from out of town for the weekend? These sorts of things and many more things can cause a delay. You can not predict them or prepare for them and they set you back in time... So, you would need to account for them before hand which most people wouldn't do.

2) If you miss a deadline it is only going to reflect poorly on you. That is a broken promise. Don't over promise and under deliver. It is better to under promise and over deliver.

3) Hitting a deadline like that doesn't make you look any better in comparison to missing it.

4) It's better to have a more relaxed working environment than to be worrying about a deadline. I need it done by the 5th! is a lot more demanding and stressful and less fun than, "Keep working at it get it done when you can." This would ruin things for a lot of devs. No dev wants it that strict.

As a Developer it is still good to set deadlines... INTERNAL DEADLINES! That you don't tell the public at all about. That way if you miss one because "Shit Happens"... At least I didn't break a promise. You work hard on it, and get it done when you can. Do the best you can.

All of what you say is true but Payment By Results is in use in many sectors, (since the 90s, it is in quite widespread use) & after 4 years of playing AWAM, I'm now convinced that properly implemented, it could be a good thing, or at least an improvement on what now exists. Everything you described is the stuff that makes PBR potentially problematic in business & organisational life. Off-the-shelf schemes are around, however, that provide models which could be adapted to Patreon. Alternatively & what's far more likely IMO, is that things just carry on as they are.

It has to be said that the main reason PBR is introduced anywhere, (officially at least), is to increase motivation & ultimately productivity. Given that Patreon is inhabited by individual developers & small teams, many of the problems associated with large complex organisations, which may contain competing departments & teams shouldn't arise, (in theory).

This is currently all academic, or at best, a debate to be had sometime in the future but I'm convinced something needs to change.

 

[ancienregimele]

Right, and devs would just make releases that are much shorter to hit that deadline. Problem solved free money!

It happens in other industries and it is called "

You must be registered to see the links

"

View attachment 1671124

That's why very specific parameters have to be set from the beginning & agreed by all concerned. [In RL this just means the boss telling subordinates how it's going to be & calling that consultation...impossible in Patreon]. Everyone who's ever worked knows the "under-promising, over-delivering" ploy. It's a question of how much of it is acceptable & if productivity & motivation don't improve, it becomes time to vary the playbook or to try something else.

Speaking personally, shorter releases which hit the deadline sounds pretty good. Dividing a playable day by 10 was supposed to deliver shorter releases in a timely fashion but here we are, for whatever reason(s), wondering, if after 3 months it will happen in another week, weeks, or a month. PBR is meant to reward effort but if such a scheme failed in this objective, along with no increase in productivity or delivery, so be it. It would be a "back to the drawing board" moment. It wouldn't signal that change, in some form, was not required.

 

[yihman1]

All of what you say is true but Payment By Results is in use in many sectors, (since the 90s, it is in quite widespread use) & after 4 years of playing AWAM, I'm now convinced that properly implemented, it could be a good thing, or at least an improvement on what now exists. Everything you described is the stuff that makes PBR potentially problematic in business & organisational life. Off-the-shelf schemes are around, however, that provide models which could be adapted to Patreon. Alternatively & what's far more likely IMO, is that things just carry on as they are.

It has to be said that the main reason PBR is introduced anywhere, (officially at least), is to increase motivation & ultimately productivity. Given that Patreon is inhabited by individual developers & small teams, many of the problems associated with large complex organisations, which may contain competing departments & teams shouldn't arise, (in theory).

This is currently all academic, or at best, a debate to be had sometime in the future but I'm convinced something needs to change.

The only person that can make L&P work faster is L&P. It is up to him to make any sort of decisions that could increase rate of production such as hiring writer / artist to team up.

 

[jamdan]

Patreon isn't going to do anything, and even if they wanted to, they couldn't. Subscribestar isn't going to do anything either. The simple facts are developers will release their games whenever they want to release their games.

I understand the frustration of slow development. I have that too. But trying to implement professional standards on solo amateur hobbyists isn't going to work. Patreon aren't their bosses or employers, they have no way to verify or force developers to do more work or do it more professionally.

People vastly overstate how much influence Patreon actually have. They don't even review games until they get reported, they definitely aren't going to independently verify whether or not devs are working on their stuff or impose deadlines on them. Again, they're the middleman, not their boss.

Patreon is more likely to ban adult content all together than to set up a verification of work process to force developers to develop things in a timely fashion.

 

[Deleted member 3516371]

100% 100% 100% 100% and ?% for the already legendary extra thing... the most useless progress tracker in history.

What is your freaking problem

 

[ancienregimele]

The only person that can make L&P work faster is L&P. It is up to him to make any sort of decisions that could increase rate of production such as hiring writer / artist to team up.

This, as we've seen, time & again, is not likely. How he chooses to work is up to him, of course & as his own boss, so it should be. Patrons choose, again quite rightly, to subsidise his chosen work method, or at least to sponsor it. So far, so good. "Take it, or leave it" is the phrase which comes to mind & we do, whether Patron or pirate.

L&P won't change, except in one respect. What makes me think of PBR is the fact that the Dev has found numerous ways of slowing things down & this has developed some momentum, which means that delivery of the product, i.e. a finished game/VN, has become a very distant prospect. Any organisation observing such a pattern would take action, no doubt describing it as "positive," in order to find a mutually acceptable workable solution.

As the Patrons appear to have a rock solid core who opt not to vote with their wallets, change to the way Patreon operates becomes a subject for consideration.