Ren'Py Another Chance [v1.49] [TimeWizardStudios]

[beerpig]

Had to replay the whole game since I updated my PC and lost save files, but it made me realise that there was always more to Kate actually. Kinda had to cheat Moments of Glory to unlock her new quest last time, so I thought those were just the moments when you tell her to fuck off somehow, but those moments seem to all dive deeper into her character. And I also realised how antagonising towards Lindsey Isabelle was from the very beginning for no reason at all (which is really funny, since Kate and Lindsey seem to be on a good terms). If that continues, Kate is actually going to take the third spot from Isabelle (Lindsey was the third and Isabelle was the second before I replayed, but somehow I ended up doing a lot of Lindsey quests in a row and realised that her chemistry with MC is really perfect, so they swapped places. Flora is still number 1 tho)

I've noticed the antagonism, too. That's surprisingly realistic; this sort of person (unable to see grey hues of morality, self-serving in their interpretation of justice, full of "good intentions") tends to be assumptive as a brick, so they often find excuses to hate others, even when they do nothing wrong.
And it's weird that the game wants me to pick a side between Isabelle and Kate. Frankly? I want a route where I can make both suffer. (In real life I'd probably avoid both.)

 

[CNR25]

I've noticed the antagonism, too. That's surprisingly realistic; this sort of person (unable to see grey hues of morality, self-serving in their interpretation of justice, full of "good intentions") tends to be assumptive as a brick, so they often find excuses to hate others, even when they do nothing wrong.
And it's weird that the game wants me to pick a side between Isabelle and Kate. Frankly? I want a route where I can make both suffer. (In real life I'd probably avoid both.)

Can you give us an example of Isabelle antagonizing Lindsey for no reason at all ? I want to see something

 

[Satura]

Can you give us an example of Isabelle antagonizing Lindsey for no reason at all ? I want to see something

Only one I can think of is when she believes Lindsey has stolen from her locker. She flies off the handle and goes directly to confront Lindsey and actually slaps her. Which is overreacting, but to be fair at that point Isabelle has probably been harassed daily by Kate and her clique, and knowing Lindsey gets along with them probably makes Isabelle think thay're the same kind of people. Not the case with Lindsey, but let's be honest, it's not a bad assumption generally.

 

[Witchy_T]

Only one I can think of is when she believes Lindsey has stolen from her locker. She flies off the handle and goes directly to confront Lindsey and actually slaps her. Which is overreacting, but to be fair at that point Isabelle has probably been harassed daily by Kate and her clique, and knowing Lindsey gets along with them probably makes Isabelle think thay're the same kind of people. Not the case with Lindsey, but let's be honest, it's not a bad assumption generally.

There was also a moment when Isabelle asks a "what type of girl do you like" type of question if I am not mistaken, and she kinda gets more triggered if you answer something like "the sporty one" than straight up saying "Kate-like". I also somehow overlooked during the first playthrough that Isabelle seems to have never been a student in MC's school in his previous life, and then there's something strange going on with Lindsey specifically (I have never done Maxine quest line so idk if that is fully explained to be honest). I really want more Kate and Lindsey quests now, didn't expect to like them that much

 

[beerpig]

Can you give us an example of Isabelle antagonizing Lindsey for no reason at all ? I want to see something

In Gathering Storm, Isabelle immediately assumes that Lindsey stole her locker ("it was Lindsey again, wasn't it?"). Then when the MC tells her that it was Maxine, Isabelle still tries to find a way to say that Kate, Lindsey and Maxine are all in this. (In this route the MC is deep into Isabelle's puss...ibilities, so he tends to agree with her.)

Then there's what Satura said - when the chocolates are stolen, the MC tells her "it's complicated", but she immediately jumps into physical aggression towards Lindsey.

but let's be honest, it's not a bad assumption generally.

All assumptions are bad. They boil down to "I don't know this, but I'll lie to myself that I do".
Doubly bad if the assumptions is towards others - as people are messy, and we don't know the others' intentions, emotions, etc.
Triply bad so if the assumption is blaming someone. People should be treated as innocent until proved contrariwise, always.

In that context, all that Isabelle had to do is to talk with people around Lindsey, to contradict her hypothesis that Lindsey is the same sort of person as Kate. But she didn't - because her justice is empty, self-serving words.

 

[CNR25]

In Gathering Storm, Isabelle immediately assumes that Lindsey stole her locker ("it was Lindsey again, wasn't it?"). Then when the MC tells her that it was Maxine, Isabelle still tries to find a way to say that Kate, Lindsey and Maxine are all in this. (In this route the MC is deep into Isabelle's puss...ibilities, so he tends to agree with her.)

Then there's what Satura said - when the chocolates are stolen, the MC tells her "it's complicated", but she immediately jumps into physical aggression towards Lindsey.


All assumptions are bad. They boil down to "I don't know this, but I'll lie to myself that I do".
Doubly bad if the assumptions is towards others - as people are messy, and we don't know the others' intentions, emotions, etc.
Triply bad so if the assumption is blaming someone. People should be treated as innocent until proved contrariwise, always.

In that context, all that Isabelle had to do is to talk with people around Lindsey, to contradict her hypothesis that Lindsey is the same sort of person as Kate. But she didn't - because her justice is empty, self-serving words.

If you put it in a realistic context, isn't that normal to antagonize someone who've been proved to steal something which has a big sentimental value to you ?

You might find her way of achieving "justice" a bit too harsh, but putting her in the same bag as Kate, meh. You can't be reasoning well

 

[Onebi6f4607]

Best country in the world

MUUCHAAAAAAACHOOOOOOOOOOS

 

[Woodstock_1983]

They should have a cheat there you can adjust the points and also a WT mod to show the results of the choices before we click them.

 

[Mariohhhhhh]

They should have a cheat there you can adjust the points and also a WT mod to show the results of the choices before we click them.

So the cheats that are already there in renpy?

 

[beerpig]

If you put it in a realistic context, isn't that normal to antagonize someone who've been proved to steal something which has a big sentimental value to you ?

In a realistic context, there's a huge range of reactions, from letting it be to beating the thief to death. Most of those things are not the right thing to do; nor is to assume guilt on one thing because of another thing.

You might find her way of achieving "justice" a bit too harsh

My issue is clearly not harshness, but hypocrisy and stupidity (as she's being assumptive).
Also note how even you put quotation marks around justice, because you likely know that Isabelle's "justice" is not justice.

but putting her in the same bag as Kate

This is subjective, of course, but... frankly? For me, Isabelle is in a bag *below* Kate.
Kate is simply evil and selfish; that sort of person who causes you harm for her own benefit, as small as it might be.
Isabelle however is assumptive. She is that sort of person who causes you harm even when she doesn't benefit from it, because she did not think the things thoroughly. And sometimes she even causes harm that she claims to not intend, such as when the locket fell in the river.
In the specific case of their petty fight, I tend to side with Isabelle. Even then, overall Kate is clearly less harmful than Isabelle.

meh. You can't be reasoning well

Or perhaps you are the one not thinking on this thoroughly.
Let it sink for a moment.

 

[CNR25]

This is subjective, of course, but... frankly? For me, Isabelle is in a bag *below* Kate

Honestly, i was gonna answer seriously and maybe have an interesting debate with you but

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

All of this is out of a porn game but if it's really your way of thinking you should start to ask yourself some good questions.

( I will just add on a side note that seeing a person steal your thing in a video is not an assumption, and the MC saw lindsey and tells Isabelle )

 

[beerpig]

Honestly, i was gonna answer seriously and maybe have an interesting debate with you but I don't want to debate with someone who genuinely think that kidnapping, raping, drugging, enslaving people is better than overreacting over a theft.

Kate is evil. Sure. Now look at Isabelle in the locker event:
✔ Willing to kill an innocent cat out of petty revenge.
✔ Pissing on the face of someone after what's effectively sexual abuse towards that person.
✔ Killing someone by drowning, as a consequence of her actions.
The only atennuating factor in this shit is that it was Maxine's homunculus, not Maxine herself, but Isabelle had no way to know it.

When it comes to sexual abuse, both are peas of the same pod. But I don't recall Kate effectively killing someone, or willing to kill an innocent critter.

If someone is tempted to say "but isabel has gucci intenshuns!", go join Hell's paving corps. And ask yourself if Isabelle would take someone else's intentions into account before "IMMA DOIN JUSTEESSE!"

Also note that, as I said, in the specific case of her petty fight with Kate, I tend to side with Isabelle. As in: I'm not excusing Kate, far from that. I'm saying that Isabelle clearly causes overall more harm than Kate does.
(I wonder if, pre-time loop, Isabelle wasn't in a jail.)

( I will just add on a side note that seeing a person steal your thing in a video is not an assumption, and the MC saw lindsey and tells Isabelle )

The assumption in question is that Lindsey stole Isabelle's locker, not the chocolate hearts. This is clear by context and you're making a fool of yourself.

[I don't believe that I'm recommending this in a thread about a porn game, but: for anyone interested, check

You must be registered to see the links

. Then look at Isabelle.]

 

[CNR25]

Kate is evil. Sure. Now look at Isabelle in the locker event:
✔ Willing to kill an innocent cat out of petty revenge.
✔ Pissing on the face of someone after what's effectively sexual abuse towards that person.
✔ Killing someone by drowning, as a consequence of her actions.
The only atennuating factor in this shit is that it was Maxine's homunculus, not Maxine herself, but Isabelle had no way to know it.

When it comes to sexual abuse, both are peas of the same pod. But I don't recall Kate effectively killing someone, or willing to kill an innocent critter.

If someone is tempted to say "but isabel has gucci intenshuns!", go join Hell's paving corps. And ask yourself if Isabelle would take someone else's intentions into account before "IMMA DOIN JUSTEESSE!"

Also note that, as I said, in the specific case of her petty fight with Kate, I tend to side with Isabelle. As in: I'm not excusing Kate, far from that. I'm saying that Isabelle clearly causes overall more harm than Kate does.
(I wonder if, pre-time loop, Isabelle wasn't in a jail.)


The assumption in question is that Lindsey stole Isabelle's locker, not the chocolate hearts. This is clear by context and you're making a fool of yourself.

[I don't believe that I'm recommending this in a thread about a porn game, but: for anyone interested, check

You must be registered to see the links

. Then look at Isabelle.]

Again, you're way too disconnected from reality and clearly you seem to believe too much in your own weird moral compass.

(Isabelle did not kill any cat so i'll not even answer to that )

There is a clear difference between someone killing by accident ( and it was a response to the second theft she was experiencing) than a person ruining someone's life out of PURE sadism. I'm not saying Isabelle is an angel, but she's functional human being with some emotional management issues, which are probably linked to her sister's death. I think it's pretty common to react violently when people are stealing from you TWICE, and one of your family member commited suicide because of those bullying-type of behaviors.

Again i'm not willing to put any effort beyond that point as it should be common sense to understand that.

But alright brother, i'm sure you're willing to maintain these kind of ideas IRL, a rapist, kidnapper, sadist, is a better person than someone with anger issues.

And i'm the fool...

 

[LazyName]

The character writing between the asinine quests are actually solid enough to inspire such a heated debate. Honestly props to the dev for that but fuck the dev for his ridiculous quest structure.

 

[beerpig]

Again, you're way too disconnected from reality and clearly you seem to believe too much in your own weird moral compass.

Weren't you claiming that you "don't want to debate", while distorting what I said? Did you change your mind?
But let's bite it. We're talking about characters in a work of fiction; but yourself was the one bringing up "in a realistic context". Well, in a realistic context you do not have access to the thoughts of someone else, and yet you're defending a character based on their... "intentions".
Yeah, but apparently I'm the one disconnected from reality. And the Moon is made of green cheese, right.

(Isabelle did not kill any cat so i'll not even answer to that )

It's easy to ignore the fact that she was considering to kill Spinach, to the point that she voiced it to the MC, right? Because it contradicts what you want to believe.

There is a clear difference between someone killing by accident ( and it was a response to the second theft she was experiencing) than a person ruining someone's life out of PURE sadism.

Because a person killed by accident is less dead than one killed by sadism, right?
Oh wait, Kate is not a murderer. Unlike Isabelle

The difference that you see is in Hell's pavement. It's intentions - something that not even Isabelle herself cares about (for different reasons that I don't), as shown by when she slaps Lindsey.

People should be not judged by "intenshuns", but by their impact on the world around them.

I'm not saying Isabelle is an angel, but she's functional human being with some emotional management issues

"Emotional management issues" is a cool way to justify "being a dumb fuck and causing harm towards the others."

I think it's pretty common to react violently when people are stealing from you TWICE,

If we're going to play this card - that it's fine for people to cause harm to others, as long as they have some "emotional reason" to do so - I'm pretty sure that we could explain Kate's behaviour based on her background. Perhaps daddy not giving her enough attention, or some other dumb shit.
But nooo, that should be only applied when convenient. Never in a fair and just way. Right? Rules for thee, not for me.

Again i'm not willing to put any effort beyond that point as it should be common sense to understand that.

What you're calling "common sense" is "to justify harm based on esoteric shit like intentions". I'm not buying it.

But alright brother, i'm sure you're willing to maintain these kind of ideas IRL, a rapist, kidnapper, sadist, is a better person than someone with anger issues.

A rapist, kidnapper, sadist (Kate) is a less worse person who also engages in sexual abuse, also locks someone against their will, also traumatises someone else (with the MC - the pig-ghost), also shows signs of sadism (against Spinach), and is a murderer

And i'm the fool...

Yes.

 

[Dogorti]

Weren't you claiming that you "don't want to debate", while distorting what I said? Did you change your mind?
But let's bite it. We're talking about characters in a work of fiction; but yourself was the one bringing up "in a realistic context". Well, in a realistic context you do not have access to the thoughts of someone else, and yet you're defending a character based on their... "intentions".
Yeah, but apparently I'm the one disconnected from reality. And the Moon is made of green cheese, right.


It's easy to ignore the fact that she was considering to kill Spinach, to the point that she voiced it to the MC, right? Because it contradicts what you want to believe.


Because a person killed by accident is less dead than one killed by sadism, right?
Oh wait, Kate is not a murderer. Unlike Isabelle

The difference that you see is in Hell's pavement. It's intentions - something that not even Isabelle herself cares about (for different reasons that I don't), as shown by when she slaps Lindsey.

People should be not judged by "intenshuns", but by their impact on the world around them.


"Emotional management issues" is a cool way to justify "being a dumb fuck and causing harm towards the others."


If we're going to play this card - that it's fine for people to cause harm to others, as long as they have some "emotional reason" to do so - I'm pretty sure that we could explain Kate's behaviour based on her background. Perhaps daddy not giving her enough attention, or some other dumb shit.
But nooo, that should be only applied when convenient. Never in a fair and just way. Right? Rules for thee, not for me.


What you're calling "common sense" is "to justify harm based on esoteric shit like intentions". I'm not buying it.


A rapist, kidnapper, sadist (Kate) is a less worse person who also engages in sexual abuse, also locks someone against their will, also traumatises someone else (with the MC - the pig-ghost), also shows signs of sadism (against Spinach), and is a murderer


Yes.

I think I forgot but who does Isabelle kill? Wasn't that in the river something more strange? I mean that being wasn't even Maxine.

 

[beerpig]

The character writing between the asinine quests are actually solid enough to inspire such a heated debate. Honestly props to the dev for that but fuck the dev for his ridiculous quest structure.

Yeah, the characterisation is great for a game not even halfway done. Lots of writers struggle to make characters feel distinctive, without making them unidimensional; this game got it right.
Fully agree with the shitty quest structure - like, are we supposed to follow a specific quest order or not???

 

[beerpig]

I think I forgot but who does Isabelle kill? Wasn't that in the river something more strange? I mean that being wasn't even Maxine.

Maxine's homunculus, in "Hurricane Isabelle".
The key here is that Isabelle had no way to know that it was a homunculus; from her PoV that was Maxine herself.

 

[Dogorti]

Maxine's homunculus, in "Hurricane Isabelle".
The key here is that Isabelle had no way to know that it was a homunculus; from her PoV that was Maxine herself.

yeahh I remembered that, I forgot that his name was homunculus, but you had me confused lol. In any case, I agree Isabelle is no saint, I think that's kind of the point, but some of her fans make people believe that she is the nicest person in the world lol. those are flora and lindsey

 

[beerpig]

yeahh I remembered that, I forgot that his name was homunculus, but you had me confused lol. In any case, I agree Isabelle is no saint, I think that's kind of the point, but some of her fans make people believe that she is the nicest person in the world lol. those are flora and lindsey

The nicest person out there would be... Maxine.
Justice is cool and all, but you know what's even more important? The Truth. It's our duty and moral obligation to seek out the truth, even if it'll make us insane. Most people don't; and for those, Maxine selflessly sacrifices herself.
Would Lindsey take a watermelon slice into her arse for the sake of The Truth? No. Flora? No - she's busier playing with her squid. Maxine would, and she did.
[I'm joking. I love Maxine but serious now, Lindsey is probably the nicest of the cast.]