Ren'Py Apartment #69 [v0.09] [Luxee]

[Rutonat]

Aaaaalright I missed a lot of posts.

This isn't a donation situation. People are paying their money each month in exchange for various things promised in each tier. Most devs don't publicly release their games; you have to pay. If they do release them, it's an older version or a stripped down one.

We must not be looking at the same devs. Because I see more ones that do release their games for free at some point, supporters just get earlier access... Sure there are exception. I even remember one game I really loved and lost, only to find out the devs ultimately stopped releasing a free version to fully monetize the game to get "big" (amateur?) voice actors or something like that. Which also drove the price up quite a bit. Bummer.

If the dev were just looking for someone to pay their bills, they'd be on a site like gofundme. Instead, they're on patreon or subscribestar and saying "give me X each month and in return you get Y". The warm fuzzy feeling of helping pay their bills is in there, but that's not why most people support devs any more than my employer is interested in donating money to me each paycheck to help pay my bills. It's an exchange.

First off, not everyone knows, or remembers, all the crowdfunding sites. For example, I had forgotten gofundme existed until you mentionned it, but I never forget Patreon, Subscribestar or Koffee (of whatever the name was). Can't expect people to go for the less known option when there's a usable one on top of their mind.
Second, yes, it's an exchange. But not a "you pay me and I make my game tailor-made for you". Most, if not pretty much all of t he time ("pretty much"), what people get and want is getting new updates faster (because smut game players are infamously impatient) and polls to feel like they have a hand in making the game. Sometimes, devs also release behind the scenes stuff like scrapped ideas and sketches, though admitedly that's more rare.

In many of theses cases, part of the exchange is an express or implied influence on the game itself. You're given advance news on the game itself. You're being literally presold on what's coming for the game.

Well, yes but also no. It's more akin to slipping a bill to the bouncer to cut the line and the club. You could wait and get in free of charge, but you just can't be fucked into it so you pay to get in faster.
As for the influence, I've yet to see a dev saying paying patrons decides what gets added or removed. Because they know it's a really bad idea for the cohesion of their project, their own mental health, and the hopes of seeing the game get finished someday.

In Luxee's case, people were a little worried about Luxee focusing on a trans character in the next game, but Luxee assured everyone that her content would be optional. So far it's not really, and you're guilt-tripped if you don't go the romance route. Luxee also has all of these characters out there, but if they finish with Nea because that's where their interest is and just starts cutting other characters because they don't feel like doing it, I'd argue that's not a good move on their part. Maybe not illegal, but also not cool.

Well... The game is also really early. Nea's path is far from being done, and nobody but Luxee themselves can say if they were done yet to get to the point of doing a clean transition between skipping her or not.
Working with Ren'py is all about juggling variables. So until some other parts of the story are in place, it's difficult to put a skip button that effectively put you where you should be after the skip... if that part doesn't exist yet. It's like getting made that the elevator leading you to the penthouse doesn't work for you to get up there and moving down a floor, forcing you to get the stairs up... while the penthouse isn't even built yet. Of course you won't be able to use it, it has no destination yet.

And I'd like to know where you got the idea that Luxee was cutting other characters to make the game solely about Nea. It's version 0.06, dude. Other games in that version barely have 30 minutes of content, if even that.
Clearly, Luxee simply went ahead with the part that inspired them the most first. As someone who writes a lot, I can assure you, working on something you have clear ideas and inspiration for is leagues easier than trying to force yourself to do parts you have yet to "feel". And it also leads to subpar quality because you force yourself rather than work enthousiastically.
Luxee had the drive for Nea and started with her, that's all there is to it. But as I stated earlier, players, especially smut games players, are very impatient in nature. So those who don't like or even hate Nea, rather than thinking "welp, that content's not for me, I'll just wait until another one gets some content", get absolutely fucking pissed ans throw trantums after tantrums.
Which is sad.

Note: Edited above paragraph to add text at the end I somehow lost on posting.

Did you switched page after writting perhaps ? The draft saving on the site has some delay, I've lost some bits of posts to that from time to time.
Edit : Actually I just did posting this and had to edit. xD

One of my guilty pleasures.
It's a pure feel good game, but it also has some darker moments.
It has one of my favourite transgirls in it. Her name is Shaune she is one with purple hair.

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ho, that was the actual name. I though that was an acronym for the title. Thanks, I'll check that out. I don't get enough games with trans characters, imo.

 

[Hellster]

Just to clarify, i don't hate Nea, nor trans people/characters, i just would have liked an option to stay friends, not have to either romance her or let her suicide, there should have been a middle ground option.
I like Nea's character, i just don't like either of the 2 options given to the player in the game, that's the only issue i have with it.

 

[Rutonat]

Just to clarify, i don't hate Nea, nor trans people/characters, i just would have liked an option to stay friends, not have to either romance her or let her suicide, there should have been a middle ground option.
I like Nea's character, i just don't like either of the 2 options given to the player in the game, that's the only issue i have with it.

To be fair, I'd like more people like you being more vocal. This thread mostly sees people like me (adamant Nea lovers) or the opposite (definite Nea haters).
The "The character is interesting even though I'm not into her" crowd is way too quiet.

 

[Corambis]

We must not be looking at the same devs. Because I see more ones that do release their games for free at some point, supporters just get earlier access... Sure there are exception. I even remember one game I really loved and lost, only to find out the devs ultimately stopped releasing a free version to fully monetize the game to get "big" (amateur?) voice actors or something like that. Which also drove the price up quite a bit. Bummer.

Releasing the game for free at some point isn't the game as releasing it completely free to begin with, then taking donations from those that want to give them. There's value in getting that game now versus later. It's the same value that has people go to midnight showings of new movies when they are first released or as soon as possible thereafter versus waiting for it to stream on a service they already pay for.

First off, not everyone knows, or remembers, all the crowdfunding sites. For example, I had forgotten gofundme existed until you mentionned it, but I never forget Patreon, Subscribestar or Koffee (of whatever the name was). Can't expect people to go for the less known option when there's a usable one on top of their mind.

I'd argue most of those aren't crowdfunding. Patreon would be considered a subscription site. Crowdfunding would be more Kickstarter, where it's a one-time buy-in to some defined rewards if they meet their goal. Although crowdfunding works as a general term, because I don't know if there is one term that covers all of those.

Second, yes, it's an exchange. But not a "you pay me and I make my game tailor-made for you". Most, if not pretty much all of t he time ("pretty much"), what people get and want is getting new updates faster (because smut game players are infamously impatient) and polls to feel like they have a hand in making the game. Sometimes, devs also release behind the scenes stuff like scrapped ideas and sketches, though admitedly that's more rare.

Again, never said it's a case where the players should have total control or even a lot of it. But quite a few games offer polls, or explicitly offer the opportunity to make suggestions. Some have special levels where you literally do buy a bonus scene. Echoes of Lust had some controversy when someone did just that and requested an NTR-ish scene. Even being non-canon bonus content in the game, some people were upset.

If the polls only offer the illusion of input, that's not good. If the dev leads with "This is completely informal, but here's this poll" that's one thing. What trapped Luxee with PL was asking poll questions where he didn't like the results, but to his credit honoring them. In general though, I think devs should be conscious of what their fans, paid or otherwise, want. If your paid fans aren't happy with something you did, is that element really all that important to you? Is it worth losing subscribers over something you may or may not be attached to? I'm not talking Nea. I'm talking Nea dying under those specific circumstances. I'm not a dev, but I have to imagine that as much as they want to create what they want, they also want to create something other people will like. They could please a lot of people by coming up with an alternative for Nea. Maybe they got rid of Nea because they didn't want to create the friendship route? If so, there are better ways of getting her out of the game. I'm still fond of the idea of the MC helping her get out of her house and live with someone better, even if it means moving quite a ways away.

Well, yes but also no. It's more akin to slipping a bill to the bouncer to cut the line and the club. You could wait and get in free of charge, but you just can't be fucked into it so you pay to get in faster.
As for the influence, I've yet to see a dev saying paying patrons decides what gets added or removed. Because they know it's a really bad idea for the cohesion of their project, their own mental health, and the hopes of seeing the game get finished someday.

See above where I talk about time having value, or immediate access, or convenience. Giving the bouncer a "tip" that you know will let you save time and hassle in the line has value to it, even though it isn't a physical thing. But then again, neither is this game. It has no physical form. Technically, you could say you're donating here, because you're not getting anything back in a physical sense. Except the game as an intangible thing still has value, just as time or other intangibles do.

Well... The game is also really early. Nea's path is far from being done, and nobody but Luxee themselves can say if they were done yet to get to the point of doing a clean transition between skipping her or not.
Working with Ren'py is all about juggling variables. So until some other parts of the story are in place, it's difficult to put a skip button that effectively put you where you should be after the skip... if that part doesn't exist yet. It's like getting made that the elevator leading you to the penthouse doesn't work for you to get up there and moving down a floor, forcing you to get the stairs up... while the penthouse isn't even built yet. Of course you won't be able to use it, it has no destination yet.

Other devs deal pretty well with the "optional content" thing. Sometimes there's a checkbox, or some very clearly worded questions in the game, or whatever. If it relates to a character, then either it's as if the character never existed, or it just skips all of their sexual content or any hint thereof. This is the first game where I've seen the approach of "here's some awkward sexual content, now do you want more?" Maybe this is a Luxee thing and their admission that they don't really do linear stuff well. But that's maybe another reason to not to consider things that have already happened as permanent.

And I'd like to know where you got the idea that Luxee was cutting other characters to make the game solely about Nea. It's version 0.06, dude. Other games in that version barely have 30 minutes of content, if even that.
Clearly, Luxee simply went ahead with the part that inspired them the most first. As someone who writes a lot, I can assure you, working on something you have clear ideas and inspiration for is leagues easier than trying to force yourself to do parts you have yet to "feel". And it also leads to subpar quality because you force yourself rather than work enthousiastically.
Luxee had the drive for Nea and started with her, that's all there is to it. But as I stated earlier, players, especially smut games players, are very impatient in nature. So those who don't like or even hate Nea, rather than thinking "welp, that content's not for me, I'll just wait until another one gets some content", get absolutely fucking pissed ans throw trantums after tantrums.
Which is sad.

I never said they were cutting other characters, but honestly if they said "I'm burnt out on this game, there's no way I'm getting to X character" I wouldn't be surprised. Artistically, I think it's not the best idea to rush forward with your favored character. If telling Nea's story is ultimately what motivates Nea's story, then he should pace accordingly. Luxee seems to get tired of their games after a while, which is how A69 came along in the first place. What I'm saying is that if Luxee tells Nea's story but still has other stuff left, it might seem awfully attractive to move on to a new game as soon as you can. Maybe he's got the idea for a game about an MC and their twin sisters (one of whom is trans, but they might as well be identical twins other than what's between their legs) that keeps gaining traction in their head?

Did you switched page after writting perhaps ? The draft saving on the site has some delay, I've lost some bits of posts to that from time to time.
Edit : Actually I just did posting this and had to edit. xD

No clue what I did, but that describes a lot of what I do, including writing this rambling monster of a post. Thanks for the debate by the way or the chance to discuss the game. We come from different perspectives and like different things, but at least we can talk civilly and share our opinions, even if they differ.

 

[Rutonat]

Releasing the game for free at some point isn't the game as releasing it completely free to begin with, then taking donations from those that want to give them. There's value in getting that game now versus later. It's the same value that has people go to midnight showings of new movies when they are first released or as soon as possible thereafter versus waiting for it to stream on a service they already pay for.

It's... not the same. The movie isn't going to be modified because people going to the Premiere didn't like something, or some part of the CG wasn't done right.

If the polls only offer the illusion of input, that's not good. If the dev leads with "This is completely informal, but here's this poll" that's one thing. What trapped Luxee with PL was asking poll questions where he didn't like the results, but to his credit honoring them. In general though, I think devs should be conscious of what their fans, paid or otherwise, want. If your paid fans aren't happy with something you did, is that element really all that important to you? Is it worth losing subscribers over something you may or may not be attached to? I'm not talking Nea. I'm talking Nea dying under those specific circumstances. I'm not a dev, but I have to imagine that as much as they want to create what they want, they also want to create something other people will like. They could please a lot of people by coming up with an alternative for Nea. Maybe they got rid of Nea because they didn't want to create the friendship route? If so, there are better ways of getting her out of the game. I'm still fond of the idea of the MC helping her get out of her house and live with someone better, even if it means moving quite a ways away.

I'll take your points in order.

1) Illusion of input isn't good
Well yeah, maybe, but usually polls are meant to help the dev on something thei hesitate over, not decide for them where the story is going. Or at least it should, as not all devs think through enough before putting up polls.

2) devs should think of what the fans want
I'd say it's debatable. Mainly because what fans want doesn't ncessarily work with what the game is intending to be. A simple example would be if some fans of PL wanted an NTR route for the story. Since the story was planned as "Long lost dad gets home harem", that would clash with the core of the game itself. See what I mean ? What fans may want isn't always something that can work, and if some fans can't accept that not all games can go a direction they want, that doesn't mean the dev is the issue, that means the game isn't the one for them.
But not everyone accepts that.

3) If paid fans are unhappy, that's bad
That would be justified if the dev knowingly lied, for example with a tier pretending you can choose ideas or scenes and never doing them. But that's more lying on what you offer than the core of what we're talking about. What people hate to admit it that, when they choose to support a dev financially, that's what it is. They choose to. They aren't required to. To use an earlier analogy, it's akin to putting coins in a street musician's guitar case and getting mad it doesn't lead to you having special decisional power over the guy, like making him play somewhere else or another instrument, or changing the style of music he plays. The guy didn't asked you to pay him, he left the option open, and you choose to do it. If you hadn't, he wouldn't have lashed out at you or anything, he just would have kept doing his own thing.
But so long as people put money, they like to forget that it's purely a voluntary action, and the responsability of such action is solely on them. Accusing the dev to be responsible for "stealing money" is a skewed (did I write that right ? I hear it a lot but never saw it written...) mentality when the person giving (essentially gifting money) isn't forced to do so.
And you can see a lot of ex-supporters who simply stopped paying when the game turned a direction they didn't like. There are some that simply accept that fact instead of getting mad at it.

4) Loosing subs to something you're not attached to
That implies devs aren't attached to the story they are trying to create and thus should search to please supproters first and foremost. Unless I missunderstood your point, there.
As for your specific example about Nea's suicide, I can't argue against or for that, as I myself think that scene was likely an overheated reaction to a pushback from transphobic fans.
But for the idea in itself, supposing I didn't missunderstood (ignore this if I did, and I'm sorry), devs create games with something in mind. They're not "not attached to it". If the best course of action was to please people instead of making what you want to make... well every single youtuber and streamer would be playing Battle Royale games and nothing else. Yet, you have some that play underrated games or music. It doesn't bring in thousands of dollars of donation an hour. But it's what they want to do.
Point is, you'll have a way better quality if you make what you want to make instead of what you are pressured to make because of people's wants.
Does it mean that nobody will like it if they don't aim to do what will bring in supporters ? No. It means those supporters won't be interested. Others will, though. Because not everyone wants the same thing.

5) didn't want a friendship route
As mentionned, I can't argue any direction on that one, since I think it was probably another issue. I'm mainly hoping that transphobic people will pipe down and Luxee will be able to calm down enough to hear other voices, for example from people like you (supporters or not) and rethink their decisions to add a new route. What's already in the game isn't necessarily set in stone.

See above where I talk about time having value, or immediate access, or convenience. Giving the bouncer a "tip" that you know will let you save time and hassle in the line has value to it, even though it isn't a physical thing. But then again, neither is this game. It has no physical form. Technically, you could say you're donating here, because you're not getting anything back in a physical sense. Except the game as an intangible thing still has value, just as time or other intangibles do.

Thing is, the basic goal for devs looking for financial support is a dream that rarely happens, and they know it. There aren't actually a lot of them that end up with enough supporters to be able to quit their job to work full time on their game. That's the dream, but most of the time, it's not happening. What does happen though, is that it eases up the financial strain, meaning for example that a dev who isn't an artist can pay someone to do the art, therefore allowing them to stress less because they have more disposable income. In some country, depending on the cost of living, it also means not having to take a second job, leading to more free time to work on their game.
But in the end, it is a donation, just like a lot of people donate to streamer to ask a question or have the thrill of hearind their name mentionned on stream. They don't do it in the hopes of getting to play with the streamer right then and there.
But when it comes to supporting games... well people forget that and start acting like they game money for the promise of getting whatever they want. And that's when everything starts going tits up : when people forget it's voluntary and not expected of them.

Other devs deal pretty well with the "optional content" thing. Sometimes there's a checkbox, or some very clearly worded questions in the game, or whatever. If it relates to a character, then either it's as if the character never existed, or it just skips all of their sexual content or any hint thereof. This is the first game where I've seen the approach of "here's some awkward sexual content, now do you want more?" Maybe this is a Luxee thing and their admission that they don't really do linear stuff well. But that's maybe another reason to not to consider things that have already happened as permanent.

Yeah but not all dev do everything the same way. And I'm not just talking gamedesign. They don't think the same way, work the same way, etc. Maybe Luxee didn't want to push Nea away from the main game to make her just a bunch of optional scenes because some people didn't want her. Arguably, her route is fairly well written (aside from the suicide thing, though fried made a lot of good points far better explained than I ever could), but as for, for example, a game entirely based on the MC being NTRed of every LIs, it's a matter of taste. For those who have no issue with sexual content with a trans character mid-transition, and I'm not talking just people into it but also those indifferent but not repulsed, it feels fairly natural.
The issue comes from those that are completely against it (meaning "not into the sex with such a character at all"), as they'd like to opt out way before the tentative awkward tries begin. But at the same time, the thing is, with the way the story flows, it sort of makes sense for the reaction and choice to happen after those tries rather than before.
Could it have been handled better ? Probably. Is it something to blame Luxee for ? No. Constructive critizism will do far better than lashing out.
But again, a lot of people don't get that.

I never said they were cutting other characters, but honestly if they said "I'm burnt out on this game, there's no way I'm getting to X character" I wouldn't be surprised. Artistically, I think it's not the best idea to rush forward with your favored character. If telling Nea's story is ultimately what motivates Nea's story, then he should pace accordingly. Luxee seems to get tired of their games after a while, which is how A69 came along in the first place. What I'm saying is that if Luxee tells Nea's story but still has other stuff left, it might seem awfully attractive to move on to a new game as soon as you can. Maybe he's got the idea for a game about an MC and their twin sisters (one of whom is trans, but they might as well be identical twins other than what's between their legs) that keeps gaining traction in their head?

And you know what would happen if Luxee were to just hold off on working on their ideas to force themselves to work on another character for which they don't have as clear a vision ? A subpar route that will get people missed off. They'll start saying Luxee doesn't care about other characters than Nea and that's why the other routes suck in comparaison.
But I honestly don't expect people to understand that. Most of the players aren't creative people that end up struggling with that type of thing, they don't think about it, let alone understand it... So in short I think saying that Luxee is only working on their favorite and ignoring the rest is unfair.
As for the "getting distracted by another project idea" thing, I'll point you out to Recreation (dev of Bad Memories and other games). Rec' always has multiple projects at the same time, because that's how they can avoid getting into burnout working exclusively on one. Not all devs function the same, some of them fare out better by bouncing between different stuff depending on their inspiration, to get the most out of themselves.

No clue what I did, but that describes a lot of what I do, including writing this rambling monster of a post. Thanks for the debate by the way or the chance to discuss the game. We come from different perspectives and like different things, but at least we can talk civilly and share our opinions, even if they differ.

I do wish more people would be as civil as you are. On this thread, I've either been met by approval from fellow Nea fans, or outright agression from haters (which in turn triggered myself to be agressive, arguably, which is why I've gotten two warning from here already...). Having the opportunity to exchange calmly and respectfully, expose my point of view with someone who doesn't immediatly insult/taunt me and actualyl takes the time to read and try to understand even if they don't agree, is refreshing (and it's fucking hot lately ).

 

[hcguy]

Patreon would be considered a subscription site.

I think we need to define "subscription site". It's certainly not a subscription like one would make to a magazine - I give them $X and in return I get twelve monthly issues. Patreon is a way to give money to support a creator that you like - absent any explicit promises from the creator, that's all it is. I like what you create, therefore I give you money (and thus some financial security) which helps give you some freedom to create without having to flip burgers (or fewer burgers), and I can enjoy the things you create with that freedom. There is no implicit agreement for you to give me anything in exchange for my support.

Now, most creators do in fact offer things to their supporters - early access, free tickets, etc. - to encourage support and build relationships with their patrons, and if they explicitly promise something and don't deliver, the patron is free to stop supporting that creator, but there's no contract there. There is certainly no implied right of the supporter to have input into what the creator is creating.

I am a patron of a band, because I like their music and I like them as people. In exchange for my support, I get some benefits - free tickets or VIP upgrades to a show, my name in the credits on their albums, an invitation to a Patron-only annual concert. Because they like interacting with their patrons, they also have some online events (a book club, an music discussion group) that we can participate in. But I have no implicit right to creative input into the songs that they write (nor would I want that). If they decide to become a death metal band instead, that's their right. I'd stop my support because I have no interest in that genre of music, but I wouldn't feel that they owed it to me to keep making music I like.

 

[Corambis]

I think we need to define "subscription site". It's certainly not a subscription like one would make to a magazine - I give them $X and in return I get twelve monthly issues. Patreon is a way to give money to support a creator that you like - absent any explicit promises from the creator, that's all it is. I like what you create, therefore I give you money (and thus some financial security) which helps give you some freedom to create without having to flip burgers (or fewer burgers), and I can enjoy the things you create with that freedom. There is no implicit agreement for you to give me anything in exchange for my support.

Now, most creators do in fact offer things to their supporters - early access, free tickets, etc. - to encourage support and build relationships with their patrons, and if they explicitly promise something and don't deliver, the patron is free to stop supporting that creator, but there's no contract there. There is certainly no implied right of the supporter to have input into what the creator is creating.

I am a patron of a band, because I like their music and I like them as people. In exchange for my support, I get some benefits - free tickets or VIP upgrades to a show, my name in the credits on their albums, an invitation to a Patron-only annual concert. Because they like interacting with their patrons, they also have some online events (a book club, an music discussion group) that we can participate in. But I have no implicit right to creative input into the songs that they write (nor would I want that). If they decide to become a death metal band instead, that's their right. I'd stop my support because I have no interest in that genre of music, but I wouldn't feel that they owed it to me to keep making music I like.

Patreon itself uses the term subscriptions. Although they also use the term "pledges" which actually fits better to their purpose. If you live in the US, you might be familiar with PBS membership drives, or NPR membership drives, where people pledge money for a year or something to help support their independent tv or radio station. Maybe they get a free mug or book or something out of the process. On the other hand, it's still considered a donation I think, because you can declare it on your taxes (I think).

Patreon doesn't quite fit into that mold though. For one thing, good luck writing off your pledge here. Secondly, every patreon site I've been on (not all porn, remarkably) offers something. I don't know if it's a requirement that they have to, but it's become standard practice to do so. Very few people would sign up for what's otherwise a one-sided deal.

To carry on your band analogy, no, I wouldn't expect that fans would get creative input into their work implicitly, but is often implied or outright stated in different tiers. Maybe your band doesn't do that. It makes less sense for a band. But if they do post a poll and say they need your help deciding which version of a new song to put on their album, and then they ignore the poll results because they had already made up their mind... well, that maybe wasn't the best form. Don't provide the illusion of choice if there is none. And if they're demoing an early version of a song (a beta version if you will, like pretty much any of these games here), and fans just hate one part of it, then it's probably worth the band's time to actually consider "Why do they hate it?" and "How much are we in love with it?" or "Are they right?" They're free to ignore their fans and stick to their vision, especially if that part is there for a key reason. But at the same time, a benefit of patreon is not only that it gives fans access to creators, it also gives creators access to fans. They can get feedback very quickly from their followers, and see that their fans are a resource for more than just money. It can make their fans feel empowered.

With bands, there's often a lot of "fan service" involved too. The bands don't go on tour and exclusively play the songs they want to. Yeah, they're going to play new stuff to promote it, or play their personal favorites. But they're also going to play X song because it's their most popular with people, or Y song because it gets people moving. The idea that any kind of artist just does whatever they want is an illusion, because they're under pressure from all sides to do things different. A lot of famous artists that had patrons likely had to do a lot of requests, or paint portraits that flattered the subject but totally went against the artist's desire to express themselves, or were outright told to change their work. Of course, that was one wealthy patron, versus a large number of just everyday people. But if many of them are in agreement, my point is that it's still something to be considered. If the entire audience is calling for that song you didn't intend to play that night... well, maybe still give them what they want. You don't have to. But you don't *don't* have to either just because it violates some artistic sense.

Speaking of sense, I don't know if this made any. A lot of this is a matter of perspective. We can both be right to a certain extent, and we can both be wrong. The truth is maybe somewhere between, or just a flat-out matter of opinion in which case there is no one truth.

 

[Master of Puppets]

It's... not the same. The movie isn't going to be modified because people going to the Premiere didn't like something, or some part of the CG wasn't done right.

I'm pretty sure a fair few movies have been recut because test audiences hated them though...

 

[Ghostface Reborn]

God. Fucking. Dammit.
Thank you for putting in way better words what I've been trying to convey so many times. I sincerely hope the people who wouldn't accept or understand my attempts at explaining that Nea's fate has nothing to do directly with her being trans and everything to do with the absolute hell her life had become, added to the shock of her loosing her only rock in that stormy sea, will understand better this time.

Also please teach me to be this eloquent. Fuck.


Imagine being so close-minded and insecure about who you are that seeing a fictional character trying to be more confortable in their own skin triggers you that much that you have to violently lash out to people who like said character and condemn anything that isn't "the norm"/being against any change to the thing you knew because you're so afraid of it for no other reason than your own refusal to learn.


Which game is that ? You got me curious.

It's all about her being trans. everything else was because of it.

 

[Corambis]

I'm pretty sure a fair few movies have been recut because test audiences hated them though...

Test screenings of movies are very much a thing. You show a test audience a copy of the movie. Maybe it's your final product, even if it's missing some special effects or soundtrack or stuff like that. Or maybe it's even earlier than that and entire scenes are missing. But you try to get feedback from the audience, including just seeing how they react. If they don't cheer at the moment you thought, that's not good. If they don't laugh at the joke, not good. Maybe reshoot those or leave the joke out. If they say they wanted more of X character, then you take notes. This is part (but not all) of the reason that you hear about movies having reshoots months or longer after filming ended. Although these days, in order to maintain secrecy, some studios are skipping the test screenings because they don't want word getting out about plot twists or cameos or things like that.

Whether people think that is or should be applicable to a game like this is debatable. But the entire thing is basically just a beta, which are subject to change anyway. It still comes down to what the dev wants to do and how they want to react to feedback, be it good or bad.

 

[GingerbreadMan]

View attachment 1816665
To be fair, I'd like more people like you being more vocal. This thread mostly sees people like me (adamant Nea lovers) or the opposite (definite Nea haters).
The "The character is interesting even though I'm not into her" crowd is way too quiet.

I'm one of that crowd.

The thing is - You can state the fact you like Nea but don't want to romance her only so often and TYPING IT IN CAPSLOCK is only that effective too ...

When this whole discussion started, for me it was mainly about the games' background and the paths provided.
I can't point at posts, but in my mind, the idea of only befriending Nea was always out there, but never confirmed officially.
Despite being a patron of Luxee, I was never active on Patreon besides adjusting pledges and almost all my info stems from threads here and the occasional look at a dev's discord.
If I remember right, when the first question comes where you can ignore Nea completely, the info from Luxee at the time was, that he confirmed the existence of a friendship route and that the path between friendship and romance wasn't set in stone but supposed to be intertwined for some time so you had multiple opportunities to opt-in/out.

At first, I was only going along with A69, because I wanted to see where Luxee would go with the game as I was unsure about the Trans content and its prominence as I'm not into that. I knew Luxee wanted to do a game with a Trans character though.
Then when it came out and Neas' story evolved, I got interested/invested in that part of the game too, and hoped there would be an option to just be her friend.
I was so happy when that was confirmed. Then with the next set of choices that option seemed to have been removed for no apparent reason, but I chose the romance option temporarily just to not close her part of the story.
Temporary because I wasn't sure I would continue on with the story later on in case there was no other option to friendzone her later on.

Then I read on here about the alternative I never encountered.
It sounded to me like an overreaction from Luxee because of the discussions about her going on, but also like it was pretty silly as a reaction because no one it could have been pointed at would ever see it because they would have had to play a pro-Nea path up to this point.
Whatever the reason, it seems, the implementation wasn't the smoothest - unless he wanted 'this'.

The whole debate for if the suicide was selfish, realistic or whatever - I can't say enough about that topic to participate.
I have no idea how a suicidal person thinks, and each person is different. Even if there was only a 1% chance for Nea doing what she did - it wouldn't be impossible, just statistically unlikely.

The posts from fried regarding this are really well put together though and definitely worth a look/read!

Ultimately, it doesn't count how correct of a representation these events are, though.
The game does contain/touch heavier topics, but it didn't really have those super dark vibes at the beginning.
And the late events don't match that well with what was promised or at least suggested.
I didn't come here for "MOAR DRAMA" and technicalities like 'I confirmed a friendship route, but not that it wouldn't lead to death.
Therefore, I'll wait for the next update and based on that decide if I want to support this game further or not.
I'll even, most likely, continue to have a look at this thread from time to time if I don't, just to see where it went.
And in case I would stop supporting Luxee/playing A69, I would most likely give a new game at least a chance.

 

[Rutonat]

It's all about her being trans. everything else was because of it.

It could have been another reason. I hope you don't think there aren't any other reason to be bullied into oblivion and abused by family than being trans... Because there are thousands of people that would tell you otherwise.

I'm one of that crowd.

The thing is - You can state the fact you like Nea but don't want to romance her only so often and TYPING IT IN CAPSLOCK is only that effective too ...

When this whole discussion started, for me it was mainly about the games' background and the paths provided.
I can't point at posts, but in my mind, the idea of only befriending Nea was always out there, but never confirmed officially.
Despite being a patron of Luxee, I was never active on Patreon besides adjusting pledges and almost all my info stems from threads here and the occasional look at a dev's discord.
If I remember right, when the first question comes where you can ignore Nea completely, the info from Luxee at the time was, that he confirmed the existence of a friendship route and that the path between friendship and romance wasn't set in stone but supposed to be intertwined for some time so you had multiple opportunities to opt-in/out.

At first, I was only going along with A69, because I wanted to see where Luxee would go with the game as I was unsure about the Trans content and its prominence as I'm not into that. I knew Luxee wanted to do a game with a Trans character though.
Then when it came out and Neas' story evolved, I got interested/invested in that part of the game too, and hoped there would be an option to just be her friend.
I was so happy when that was confirmed. Then with the next set of choices that option seemed to have been removed for no apparent reason, but I chose the romance option temporarily just to not close her part of the story.
Temporary because I wasn't sure I would continue on with the story later on in case there was no other option to friendzone her later on.

Then I read on here about the alternative I never encountered.
It sounded to me like an overreaction from Luxee because of the discussions about her going on, but also like it was pretty silly as a reaction because no one it could have been pointed at would ever see it because they would have had to play a pro-Nea path up to this point.
Whatever the reason, it seems, the implementation wasn't the smoothest - unless he wanted 'this'.

The whole debate for if the suicide was selfish, realistic or whatever - I can't say enough about that topic to participate.
I have no idea how a suicidal person thinks, and each person is different. Even if there was only a 1% chance for Nea doing what she did - it wouldn't be impossible, just statistically unlikely.

The posts from fried regarding this are really well put together though and definitely worth a look/read!

Ultimately, it doesn't count how correct of a representation these events are, though.
The game does contain/touch heavier topics, but it didn't really have those super dark vibes at the beginning.
And the late events don't match that well with what was promised or at least suggested.
I didn't come here for "MOAR DRAMA" and technicalities like 'I confirmed a friendship route, but not that it wouldn't lead to death.
Therefore, I'll wait for the next update and based on that decide if I want to support this game further or not.
I'll even, most likely, continue to have a look at this thread from time to time if I don't, just to see where it went.
And in case I would stop supporting Luxee/playing A69, I would most likely give a new game at least a chance.

Hmm... Maybe the friendship route has yet to be put in the game then ? People love to put intent in Luxee's head and ignore the fact the game has barely started yet, but taking the version into account, it could be a possibility...

 

[Ghostface Reborn]

It could have been another reason. I hope you don't think there aren't any other reason to be bullied into oblivion and abused by family than being trans... Because there are thousands of people that would tell you otherwise.


Hmm... Maybe the friendship route has yet to be put in the game then ? People love to put intent in Luxee's head and ignore the fact the game has barely started yet, but taking the version into account, it could be a possibility...

I know... I'm one of those thousands... but not in this instance. just read the dialogue.

 

[Rutonat]

I know... I'm one of those thousands... but not in this instance. just read the dialogue.

That was not the point. Learn to understand meaning.
The point is that, no, it's not a case of "her being trans is why she kills herself". She could have been anything, so long has her life ended up being that amount of fucked, what triggered it doesn't make a difference.

 

[Ghostface Reborn]

That was not the point. Learn to understand meaning.
The point is that, no, it's not a case of "her being trans is why she kills herself". She could have been anything, so long has her life ended up being that amount of fucked, what triggered it doesn't make a difference.

I do ''understand meaning''... agreed. but it wasn't anything=it was the combination of everything she experienced because she was trans.

 

[Rutonat]

I do ''understand meaning''... agreed. but it wasn't anything=it was the combination of everything she experienced because she was trans.

Let me put it another way.
You work on fixing something in your house. You cut your arm, you try to take care of it, but it gets infected. The infection goes bad and you end up dying. Now, did you die because you cut your arm, or because the infection went out of control ?
The actual answer is the infection, by the way. Sure you got infected because of the cut, which seems to be the root of all evil. But it could as well not have ended up infected. Not all wounds do.

And with your logic, if we're to find the root cause, then it's birth. Nea wouldn't have killed herself if Noah was never born to begin with. But I'm sure you can see how dumb that argument is.

Nea could have very well done her transition without people being assholes. Her dad could have tried to understand. Or she could have been something entirely different. She could have been bullied because she was a different ethnicity. Or because she had a birth defect. Or any number of reason.
Point is, the reason for her being bullied doesn't matter. Hell, she could have been bullied for no raeson at all, just because people decided to hate her. Same goes for her dad, it could have been any number of reason or no reason at all.

Her being trans isn't a "root cause of why she has to kill herself". It's just an excuse for others to try to justify making her life miserable.

 

[Ghostface Reborn]

Let me put it another way.
You work on fixing something in your house. You cut your arm, you try to take care of it, but it gets infected. The infection goes bad and you end up dying. Now, did you die because you cut your arm, or because the infection went out of control ?
The actual answer is the infection, by the way. Sure you got infected because of the cut, which seems to be the root of all evil. But it could as well not have ended up infected. Not all wounds do.

And with your logic, if we're to find the root cause, then it's birth. Nea wouldn't have killed herself if Noah was never born to begin with. But I'm sure you can see how dumb that argument is.

Nea could have very well done her transition without people being assholes. Her dad could have tried to understand. Or she could have been something entirely different. She could have been bullied because she was a different ethnicity. Or because she had a birth defect. Or any number of reason.
Point is, the reason for her being bullied doesn't matter. Hell, she could have been bullied for no raeson at all, just because people decided to hate her. Same goes for her dad, it could have been any number of reason or no reason at all.

Her being trans isn't a "root cause of why she has to kill herself". It's just an excuse for others to try to justify making her life miserable.

that represents the reality of what trans people face... from people like who I was.

 

[Rutonat]

that represents the reality of what trans people face... from people like who I was.

Not all of them. Sadly a good majority, but not all of them anyway.
And putting it like "it's all because she's trans" paints it as the fact that being trans is a bad thing. Literally, saying she's commiting suicide because she's trans means that if Noah had given up on being confortable in his/her own skin, then he would have lived a happy life.
And that's not what it is for trans people.

 

[Ghostface Reborn]

Not all of them. Sadly a good majority, but not all of them anyway.
And putting it like "it's all because she's trans" paints it as the fact that being trans is a bad thing. Literally, saying she's commiting suicide because she's trans means that if Noah had given up on being confortable in his/her own skin, then he would have lived a happy life.
And that's not what it is for trans people.

to many--they are considered freaks and abominations. again, every attack has centered her being trans--we're all playing the same game here. I have no idea what point that you're trying to make.

 

[Rutonat]

to many--they are considered freaks and abominations. again, every attack has centered her being trans--we're all playing the same game here. I have no idea what point that you're trying to make.

No, you just don't want to see any other point than your own. I've tried multiple times to find another way to phrase it, and everytime you came back saying that it's all because she's trans, implying it wouldn't have happened if noha stayed a guy.
I'm done wasting my time with you.
Have a good one.