VN Ren'Py Aperture [Ch.2] [Vonsatia]

[NiktoAzure]

Negotation, you can consider a false-blackmail because the heroine it is still forced into a relationship that she normally would rather avoid.

The problem is that any negotiation always has a chance of devolving into blackmail, and ultimately, we end up back at it.
Of course, Rin isn't stupid, and she can offer negotiations that aren't blackmail, but she can also devolve into the NTR.
But the line between blackmail and not blackmail remains.

 

[fr3shNh0rNy]

Wow , just wow , and wow! Nothing excites me anymore but this here , warmed my hole body , my heart is pumping craving for more. I had to replay it carefully three times to absorb every little detail of the magnificent world and characters you've created. Outstanding foundation, now bring in the pain. Oh Rin..

 

[Kulman]

I played a couple of netorare games with blackmail and with negotation, as the start of the heroine and the antagonist relationship.

Blackmail is not fun because it remove the suspense about what is going to happen. Even worst when is stupid blackmail requiring the heroine to be gullible. Also the fact that blackmail is repetitive over-used trope. Just not seeing blackmail is already a breath of fresh air.

Negotation, you can consider a false-blackmail because the heroine it is still forced into a relationship that she normally would rather avoid.
The interesting thing about negotation instead of blackmail is how the heroine discuss the terms of negotation with antagonist, the heroine is dicussing the terms of her relationship with antagonist. And also the fact that the heroine have the power to get out of the affair anytime creating suspense about what is going to happen. This makes the story more interesting because the antagonist needs to work hard to mantain his relationship with the heroine after the initial stage.

Imo hangovercat does this well. Its blackmail, but also based on negotiation. The heroines arent that dumb to just jump on blackmail, so the antagonists develop those "games". Rules on which they negotiate, if she does well, she can get out scot free. It gives them an out, its slow so they kinda are like frogs in slowly heating water.

Now you may say they are still dumb and that the games will of course be skewed against them, but its a porn game, there will be SOME porn logic, or it will just be the most dull shit ever. And also people act dumber under pressure.

I think that blackmail is the best ntr starter tool there is, though almost everyone hates it because of it being overused. If you then ask them what they prefer, they usually cant answer, because everything else makes the heroine just appear like a complete slut, and thats no corruption. If she says yes to that, shes already a slut.

TL,DR: Blackmail is great (probably best tool we have), but needs to be executed well. Not just a completely dumb leverage followed by easy consent. And yeah I count coercion (bandits will kill you if you dont fuck) and "to save the world" as blackmail (at least those are understandable choices from heroine).

I do kinda hope the game uses blackmail, its well set up for it and I trust Vonsatia to not execute it in a dumb way.

 

[Neryxon]

Why hasn't anyone considered thorough character transformation arcs as an alternative to blackmail, coercion, or innate nymphomania?

We have many prominent examples in non-adult works: Zuko, Walter White, Anakin Skywalker, Arthas Menethil, Aribeth de Tylmarande, Sasuke Uchiha, and others.

 

[Kulman]

Why hasn't anyone considered thorough character transformation arcs as an alternative to blackmail, coercion, or innate nymphomania?

We have many prominent examples in non-adult works: Zuko, Walter White, Anakin Skywalker, Arthas Menethil, Aribeth de Tylmarande, Sasuke Uchiha, and others.

So what would that be? She turns into a complete slut because of a traumatic event?

 

[nhami]

Imo hangovercat does this well. Its blackmail, but also based on negotiation. The heroines arent that dumb to just jump on blackmail, so the antagonists develop those "games". Rules on which they negotiate, if she does well, she can get out scot free. It gives them an out, its slow so they kinda are like frogs in slowly heating water.

Now you may say they are still dumb and that the games will of course be skewed against them, but its a porn game, there will be SOME porn logic, or it will just be the most dull shit ever. And also people act dumber under pressure.

I think that blackmail is the best ntr starter tool there is, though almost everyone hates it because of it being overused. If you then ask them what they prefer, they usually cant answer, because everything else makes the heroine just appear like a complete slut, and thats no corruption. If she says yes to that, shes already a slut.

TL,DR: Blackmail is great (probably best tool we have), but needs to be executed well. Not just a completely dumb leverage followed by easy consent. And yeah I count coercion (bandits will kill you if you dont fuck) and "to save the world" as blackmail (at least those are understandable choices from heroine).

I do kinda hope the game uses blackmail, its well set up for it and I trust Vonsatia to not execute it in a dumb way.

One thing is the blackmail another thing is the heroine internal conflict.
The blackmail is just a plot device to start the heroine relationship with the antagonist.
The internal conflict of the heroine about her integrity vs desire is the sauce in netorare. This is the meat of the story regardless of how the story start.

I am probably dumb, but, blackmail removes the heroine agency. The heroine do not have any power and is easily defeated. If it is so easy to defeat the heroine then where is the fun?

The heroine being an impossible target for netorare that is hard to corrupt makes the story all the more fun.

The heroine is an impossible target and the antagonist finding a small opening to corrupt her. "Aperture" is even the name of this game.

 

[Ion.TemUS]

Why hasn't anyone considered thorough character transformation arcs as an alternative to blackmail, coercion, or innate nymphomania?

We have many prominent examples in non-adult works: Zuko, Walter White, Anakin Skywalker, Arthas Menethil, Aribeth de Tylmarande, Sasuke Uchiha, and others.

So what would that be? She turns into a complete slut because of a traumatic event?

Yea I gotta agree with Kulman here, I can't see a way how this would be executed.

Walter White was a great character arc, but that part of him slumbered in there. He showed that he is willing to kill in one of the first episodes. Anakin was a naive kid who on the one hand had people influencing him badly and judging him for something he couldnt do anything about and on the other hand someone who was way too emotional and didn't have his impulses under control. Tragedy did the rest.

All of those you mentioned have one thing in common though. Their "corruption" involves killing and atrocities. Its them doing terrible things to other people. That is not applicable here, cause Rin would be doing a terrible thing to herself. Yes there is circumstances where she can loose her temper and emotions get the better of her and she makes bad decisions. But in all that I can think of this would lead to bad consequences for her, but not to her having sex with her principal or doing anything sexual with him or someone else that isnt a love interest. So the question is: How does Daizo get her to cross that line? The only answer I can think of it putting some pressure on her:

1. Classic blackmail: Do sexual stuff with x/me or I will do y (which will be terrible for you or for MC).

2. "Helping" in exchange for sexual favors (which is indirect blackmail, and makes her appear very dumb).

3. Coercion:Creating a situation where she has little choice but to give in to his sexual advances (in this case he needs to make advances first, and then the only difference between coercion and blackmail is that blackmail is more direct and puts more pressure on her while coercion does it more softly and often under the guise of some "excuse". Also often makes her seem dumb.

The only alternatives I see are:

1. She freely chooses. Which means she always was ready to do something like this to reach her goals ("slut" - even if I dont like the term)

2. She is slowly starting to believe Daizo is a nice guy and an ally, but then she would need to also find him attractive and/or hot/arousing to actually do something sexual with him. That would eliminate the whole "her disliking him" element which is a really hot part of some NTR stories and I felt was one thing that was set up in Ch 1. It also makes her seem a bit dumb.


Tell me if you can think of something else that is different from the mentioned scenarios. I cant rn.

One thing is the blackmail another thing is the heroine internal conflict.
The blackmail is just a plot device to start the heroine relationship with the antagonist.
The internal conflict of the heroine about her integrity vs desire is the sauce in netorare. This is the meat of the story regardless of how the story start.

I am probably dumb, but, blackmail removes the heroine agency. The heroine do not have any power and is easily defeated. If it is so easy to defeat the heroine then where is the fun?

The heroine being an impossible target for netorare that is hard to corrupt makes the story all the more fun.

The heroine is an impossible target and the antagonist finding a small opening to corrupt her. "Aperture" is even the name of this game.

That might be true, but from a story POV you also have to "start" the story properly, you gotta start the corruption. So there needs to be steps towards that, even if its baby-steps. Delay h-scenes too long and people are going to loose interest. Ofc a slow burn is important for the story, but having no angle on her at all doesn't work either. Esp. since dev seems to plan the start of corruption for Chapter 3.

 

[Neryxon]

Yea I gotta agree with Kulman here, I can't see a way how this would be executed.

Walter White was a great character arc, but that part of him slumbered in there. He showed that he is willing to kill in one of the first episodes. Anakin was a naive kid who on the one hand had people influencing him badly and judging him for something he couldnt do anything about and on the other hand someone who was way too emotional and didn't have his impulses under control. Tragedy did the rest.

All of those you mentioned have one thing in common though. Their "corruption" involves killing and atrocities. Its them doing terrible things to other people. That is not applicable here, cause Rin would be doing a terrible thing to herself. Yes there is circumstances where she can loose her temper and emotions get the better of her and she makes bad decisions. But in all that I can think of this would lead to bad consequences for her, but not to her having sex with her principal or doing anything sexual with him or someone else that isnt a love interest. So the question is: How does Daizo get her to cross that line? The only answer I can think of it putting some pressure on her:

1. Classic blackmail: Do sexual stuff with x/me or I will do y (which will be terrible for you or for MC).

2. "Helping" in exchange for sexual favors (which is indirect blackmail, and makes her appear very dumb).

3. Coercion:Creating a situation where she has little choice but to give in to his sexual advances (in this case he needs to make advances first, and then the only difference between coercion and blackmail is that blackmail is more direct and puts more pressure on her while coercion does it more softly and often under the guise of some "excuse". Also often makes her seem dumb.

The only alternatives I see are:

1. She freely chooses. Which means she always was ready to do something like this to reach her goals ("slut" - even if I dont like the term)

2. She is slowly starting to believe Daizo is a nice guy and an ally, but then she would need to also find him attractive and/or hot/arousing to actually do something sexual with him. That would eliminate the whole "her disliking him" element which is a really hot part of some NTR stories and I felt was one thing that was set up in Ch 1. It also makes her seem a bit dumb.


Tell me if you can think of something else that is different from the mentioned scenarios. I cant rn.



That might be true, but from a story POV you also have to "start" the story properly, you gotta start the corruption. So there needs to be steps towards that, even if its baby-steps. Delay h-scenes too long and people are going to loose interest. Ofc a slow burn is important for the story, but having no angle on her at all doesn't work either. Esp. since dev seems to plan the start of corruption for Chapter 3.

Very good! I like this creativity.

Well, isn't that the beauty of it?
If the answers were something simple and straightforward, would such a story actually be that interesting in the first place?

Plus, the examples above were about transformation arcs, not corruption per se. It's not like Zuko killed anyone to eventually become a good guy, is it? Also, did Sasuke or Aribeth take anyone's life either before choosing a different path? I don't remember.

We actually discuss some of the possibilities that wouldn't involve any coercion or innate nymphomania at all, on the server. Personally, I'm curious what people here think, independent of those discussions.

 

[ffive]

So what would that be? She turns into a complete slut because of a traumatic event?

"Character transformation arc" in context of willingness to have sex is commonly introduced in porn games as "corruption". And it surprises no one when it occurs.

 

[NiktoAzure]

I do kinda hope the game uses blackmail, its well set up for it and I trust Vonsatia to not execute it in a dumb way.

The problem is, judging by the beginning of the discussion, that the author does not want to use blackmail.
And so began a discussion about how to start NTR without blackmail? Negotiations? But negotiations are also blackmail. Threats? Also blackmail. Ultimately, it all boils down to the fact that Rin is simply a whore, otherwise what other option?

Hangovercat's games started with blackmail, then negotiations with games where, if you win, we'll let you go. But it all started with blackmail, because the bull stole a flash drive and used it to blackmail a woman.

In the end, NTR began with blackmail.
How will the author implement it? He's against blackmail, but without it, NTR won't happen.

 

[ffive]

Ultimately, it all boils down to the fact that Rin is simply a whore, otherwise what other option?

If the character is "simply a whore" what need is there for the antagonist to be crafty and cunning in order for her to have sex? You don't need to trick or manipulate a whore into having sex. Nor would the game heavily focus on "slow corruption and gradual fall", which it does according to the overview.

 

[NiktoAzure]

If the character is "simply a whore" what need is there for the antagonist to be crafty and cunning in order for her to have sex? You don't need to trick or manipulate a whore into having sex. Nor would the game heavily focus on "slow corruption and gradual fall", which it does according to the overview.

So the problem is that there is no way without blackmail.
How to manipulate and persuade into sex?

If that's really how it was, of course!!
And this!! Rin just fell in love with the villain, seeing him and being like, "Oh my god, what a villain, how devious, and what a gigantic dick, oh, I'm in love." And the villain fell in love with Rin, too. But that's not NTR, but love? At least it wasn't blackmail, because they simply FELL IN LOVE.
And it turns out it's not Netorare, but Netori, we're playing as the one who takes Rin away from the Villain!!
Does this seem like something new?

 

[ffive]

So the problem is that there is no way without blackmail.
How to manipulate and persuade into sex?

How do people talk other people into having sex without resorting to blackmail? I realize this may be unfair question to ask on this forums, but surprisingly, quite a few people out there manage it.

 

[fr3shNh0rNy]

Esp. since dev seems to plan the start of corruption for Chapter 3.

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[Neryxon]

The problem is, judging by the beginning of the discussion, that the author does not want to use blackmail.
And so began a discussion about how to start NTR without blackmail? Negotiations? But negotiations are also blackmail. Threats? Also blackmail. Ultimately, it all boils down to the fact that Rin is simply a whore, otherwise what other option?

Hangovercat's games started with blackmail, then negotiations with games where, if you win, we'll let you go. But it all started with blackmail, because the bull stole a flash drive and used it to blackmail a woman.

In the end, NTR began with blackmail.
How will the author implement it? He's against blackmail, but without it, NTR won't happen.

VNDB defines three main types of NTR, and only two of them (Type B and Type C) include blackmail, coercion, or some form of mind control. Type A currently has 245 listed works, while Type B and Type C 399 in total (301 + 98).

 

[Kulman]

How do people talk other people into having sex without resorting to blackmail? I realize this may be unfair question to ask on this forums, but surprisingly, quite a few people out there manage it.

In real life people are dumb, they are not perfect, they cheat often because they just want the thrill, look for better partners etc. But for an ntr story to be good, the heroine is usually almost "perfect". She wouldnt cheat on her own for dumb reasons. The ntr and corruption is good BECAUSE you would never see her character cheating. There lies the contradiction, where the only "reasonable" way for such a person to cheat, is some form of blackmail (and its not a simple term as you can see from previous posts, at least for me its not just a dumb "haha I got a naughty picture of you, now do more lewd stuff for me so I can take more pictures to blackmail you with muhaha").

Now I am not saying different types of ntr dont exist. They do, they just usually miss the mark for me for those reasons. Definition of type A: " The heroine is willingly cheating on the protagonist with another guy and enjoys every second of it. No rape, blackmail, drugs etc. involved, it's consensual sex from the very beginning. " - Personally I just dont really find that hot. Since the heroine was rotten from the beginning then. (I guess the only okay for me is if she has warped sense of morals. So like an android, alien, weird village custom).

A lot of type A is even dumber than blackmail. Its usually: "Oh my god look at this huge dick! I CANT RESISTS THIS HUGE DICK. Oh well, here I got cheating!"

 

[Kulman]

One thing is the blackmail another thing is the heroine internal conflict.
The blackmail is just a plot device to start the heroine relationship with the antagonist.
The internal conflict of the heroine about her integrity vs desire is the sauce in netorare. This is the meat of the story regardless of how the story start.

I am probably dumb, but, blackmail removes the heroine agency. The heroine do not have any power and is easily defeated. If it is so easy to defeat the heroine then where is the fun?

The heroine being an impossible target for netorare that is hard to corrupt makes the story all the more fun.

The heroine is an impossible target and the antagonist finding a small opening to corrupt her. "Aperture" is even the name of this game.

The agency you are talking about is exactly what makes hangovercat game great imo. That additional "risky game" layer to the blackmail adds said agency and makes it exciting to watch. It also breaks some classic corruption sequences of grope-hj-bj-thighjob-vaginal-anal-groupsex.

 

[NiktoAzure]

How do people talk other people into having sex without resorting to blackmail? I realize this may be unfair question to ask on this forums, but surprisingly, quite a few people out there manage it.

Yes, there are other options without blackmail, but they are only fulfilled if the other conditions are met.
In this case, we know that Rin is a virgin, fair, and intelligent, and she wants to catch the villain and bring him to justice.
Where essentially only blackmail or hypnosis works.
But hypnosis is the most boring.
Other options simply don't work unless there is love and being close.

Because there are such options where NTR can happen.
1. If a woman is a widow, has lost her husband, and is going through difficulties, the bull will be there, helping and, as it were, quietly coercing her into sex, since the woman has a desire for sex and sees the bull as a reliable person. Even if the bull is villainous and terrible. But this is no longer blackmail. But Rin is a virgin and has no beloved.
2. Performed if the woman is mature and responsible, and the bull is a shota. There will be training, communication, and, of course, tears, where the shota will force her to have sex, saying it's for school, saying she wants to be an adult. The woman will fall victim to corruption, and the excuse will begin, claiming it's training and education. Rin isn't an adult. And the bull isn't a shota.
3. It also works with a naive fool, or a smart one, but she's tempted to cry. Like, a schoolgirl got into trouble, and the bull saved her, but suffered, and then it's like responsibility. I have to help him, because because of me, he suffered. And then it's classic coercion and corruption. Rin approaches, but she is unlikely to burst into tears and seems strong.
4. Hypnosis, but it's really boring. It's not blackmail, so to speak, but mind manipulation. It can be done. But as I said, hypnosis is boring.
That's all I remember that isn't blackmail, but leads to NTR.

I remembered.
5. The woman is like a slut from the start, ready to pounce. Like, the bull has a huge dick and is good at sex.
Yes, it's not blackmail, but it's also hard to call her an NTR, since there's no corruption and she's a slut from the start.

 

[Neryxon]

In real life people are dumb, they are not perfect, they cheat often because they just want the thrill etc. But for an ntr story to be good, the heroine is usually almost "perfect". She wouldnt cheat on her own for dumb reasons. The ntr and corruption is good BECAUSE you would never see her character cheating. There lies the contradiction, where the only "reasonable" way for such a person to cheat, is some form of blackmail (and its not a simple term as you can see from previous posts, at least for me its not just a dumb "haha I got a naughty picture of you, now do more lewd stuff for me so I can take more pictures to blackmail you with muhaha").

Now I am not saying different types of ntr dont exist. They do, they just usually miss the mark for me for those reasons. Definition of type A: " The heroine is willingly cheating on the protagonist with another guy and enjoys every second of it. No rape, blackmail, drugs etc. involved, it's consensual sex from the very beginning. " - Personally I just dont really find that hot. Since the heroine was rotten from the beginning then. (I guess the only okay for me is if she has warped sense of morals. So like an android, alien, weird village custom).

Why though? Why is it not common to imagine a character transformation in NTR games? Why do we assume that the character in question has to remain the same from start to finish? Why do we believe it has to be a straight path from Point A to Point B and not through many different stages in-between?

As ffive mentioned above, that's what we usually have in adult games with the tag "corruption," isn't it?

 

[Kulman]

Why though? Why is it not common to imagine a character transformation in NTR games? Why do we assume that the character in question has to remain the same from start to finish? Why do we believe it has to be a straight path from Point A to Point B and not through many different stages in-between?

As ffive mentioned above, that's what we usually have in adult games with the tag "corruption," isn't it?

No? Noone thinks they should remain the same, its called corruption and its a large part of the reason to be here. But said corruption needs an impetus. A starting point. And thats where blackmail comes in, so the ntr can start happening and slowly warp the character.

I would love to hear better scenarios, but I always hear hating on blackmail, but never anything specific that would actually work. I would also love a mix-up, but I just dont really see how.