Ren'Py Astral Lust [v0.3.0c] [Victorius]

[raydaydream]

The things that I like this game is it did have the gaming part.
You can play a game and jerk off, in between.

 

[wookie ookie]

The things that I like this game is it did have the gaming part.
You can play a game and jerk off, in between.

 

[Game Lord]

It's a common excuse because it's a common problem.
I don't know about you, but I've seen people in real life's hair gradually turn white due to overwhelming stress, or visit urgent care or the hospital more often because stress and lack of rest, compounding with other risk factors, resulted in drastic and sudden deterioration of their health. I shouldn't have to explain how mental health works, because I'm sure everyone at least knows one person dealing with it. One day they look alright, and half a year later they're no longer alright. Again, working a full time job and trying to meet game development expectations separately will absolutely do that to you.

The real issue isn't whether people are really getting sick physically or mentally, it's the fact that game development is very resource demanding, and a lot of people go into it underestimating the challenge or overestimating their own abilities. Elbow grease and optimism can only carry you so far. And it doesn't help that people who don't make games and don't understand how hard it is being quick to accuse them of milking, scamming, or otherwise wasting the money they're given. It's equivalent to working in a toxic work environment. Is it really that hard to see how people can get fucked up by months and years of enduring this?

While I agree to a certain extent with what you've said here, my mindset is, all too often you see one of three things precede many of these games before they are abandoned it seems like.

1) The game does well enough monetary wise that earlier updates that were being put out at a much higher frequency before, starts slowing down dramatically to the point where any type of update that may be put out gives the impression they are just milking the system at that point.

2) The developer starts actively arguing with its game's followers when they start requesting changes, arguing that the game is their creative vision and when some players start indicating "the game could be so much better" if the developer would just listen to and implement the changes being requested, the developer starts taking things too personally instead of just brushing them off.

3) The developer starts pandering to requests from its player base looking for what they would like to see ultimately, and while the the developer is initially receptive to this, often times starts to push back that this was not their vision for their game or getting sidetracked by each and every one of these requests and starts implementing them into their game partially but then never fully completes them before starting to implement yet another requested change.

It just seems like to me, many of these game creators may be getting overwhelmed with the scope of the project their game ultimately take on but at the same time, many of them can't handle the criticisms that comes with being a creator and making it public and then once enough negative feedback has been reached by them, they enter a shell and retreat. It's like many of them only expected positive reinforcement for their creation unrealistically. To me, not enough of them have thick enough skin, if you will. That it wasn't just the sheer scope of their game that overwhelms them but feedback about their game removing the desire to follow through and complete it for those that do enjoy it.

 

[Ferghus]

While I agree to a certain extent with what you've said here, my mindset is, all too often you see one of three things precede many of these games before they are abandoned it seems like.

1) The game does well enough monetary wise that earlier updates that were being put out at a much higher frequency before, starts slowing down dramatically to the point where any type of update that may be put out gives the impression they are just milking the system at that point.

2) The developer starts actively arguing with its game's followers when they start requesting changes, arguing that the game is their creative vision and when some players start indicating "the game could be so much better" if the developer would just listen to and implement the changes being requested, the developer starts taking things too personally instead of just brushing them off.

3) The developer starts pandering to requests from its player base looking for what they would like to see ultimately, and while the the developer is initially receptive to this, often times starts to push back that this was not their vision for their game or getting sidetracked by each and every one of these requests and starts implementing them into their game partially but then never fully completes them before starting to implement yet another requested change.

It just seems like to me, many of these game creators may be getting overwhelmed with the scope of the project their game ultimately take on but at the same time, many of them can't handle the criticisms that comes with being a creator and making it public and then once enough negative feedback has been reached by them, they enter a shell and retreat. It's like many of them only expected positive reinforcement for their creation unrealistically. To me, not enough of them have thick enough skin, if you will. That it wasn't just the sheer scope of their game that overwhelms them but feedback about their game removing the desire to follow through and complete it for those that do enjoy it.

I agree that most devs are probably way in over their heads. However, I don't believe that most go into it expecting positive reinforcement, I think most think they have thicker skin than they actually do. You have to realize that the stresses you're exposed to, especially those related to performance inadequacy and creativity, is relatively infrequent and smaller in scale in the average person's life. You might go into it thinking it'll be like 5x harder than what you're been facing, but it's actually 20x harder, or even more depending on how popular your game is.

1) Game development generally isn't linear. You might have a clear idea of what/how to implement something up to a certain point, and have visible work to show for it, but you eventually hit a point where you need some time just to lay the foundation for the next set of work you need to do. It could be anything between the chosen game engine's limitations, game balancing, creative blocks, or lack of foreknowledge. Sometimes there's backend stuff that a dev needs to handle before visible progress can be seen, but a lot of folks in these forums either don't understand that or choose not to acknowledge it. And it's undeniable that some devs are actually milking, but those accusations probably don't affect them as badly as it does people who aren't, because it signals to them that people have unreasonable expectations. And when people give you unreasonable expectations, you generally quit.

2) I think most people don't really have the kind of thick skin to take constant criticism, but it's not something you will into existence. It's a skill you develop from exposure, and it's the overexposure that kills you. Think of it like exercising and pushing past your limits into muscle injury. To heal, you'd need to either take a break or work at a significantly slower pace. How badly criticism fucks with your head isn't voluntary. Criticism feels personal because it's a personal effort. You're not doing it as another cog in the machine, you're doing it using all your wits and skills. If you work in a large company, there's a number of people you could blame, like management, or that one guy who never works well with anyone, or the shitty software they've given you to work with, but there's no such escape when you're every role at once. It's hard being told that you're doing less than your potential when you're already trying to give your all and have been for a long time. You can argue that a dev should be more professional in how they conduct themselves, but they're only human too.

3) In itself, I don't see anything wrong with asking the the audience what they want to get out of the game. Ideally, what happens is that a dev weighs the resource cost and intangible payoff to these ideas before deciding on the order of priority. What I suspect usually happens is that the dev starts with what's easiest (or at least what they think is easiest) to do, and then proceeds to fight an uphill battle as they work on increasingly difficult tasks. They might feel pressured to have something, anything to show for their effort (because that's what the loudest voices are demanding) and sucked into a cycle of doing the easiest part, stopping when they hit a dead end, and starting something new in hopes of making headway. It's simply hopeful thinking. When even that fails, all you have left is hopelessness and abandonment starts to look really good.

 

[Game Lord]

Yeah, ultimately I would hope they are finding enjoyment in doing what they are doing but my best guess is, once they no longer are, then it becomes a chore and whether they are or not earning enough money to make a living off continued development of the game is irrelevant at that point.

I just wish more developers would take the mindset of once you start something, finish it even if you're not particularly happy with the way it turned out in the end, granted they have the financial means to do so.

Personally, I think it would work wonders for them as an individual knowing they put forth the effort and saw their project to completion. And this is not me speaking from the perspective of an entitled consumer here either, in all honesty.

 

[Ferghus]

Yeah, ultimately I would hope they are finding enjoyment in doing what they are doing but my best guess is, once they no longer are, then it becomes a chore and whether they are or not earning enough money to make a living off continued development of the game is irrelevant at that point.

I just wish more developers would take the mindset of once you start something, finish it even if you're not particularly happy with the way it turned out in the end, granted they have the financial means to do so.

Personally, I think it would work wonders for them as an individual knowing they put forth the effort and saw their project to completion. And this is not me speaking from the perspective of an entitled consumer here either, in all honesty.

I think it depends on the size of the workload. If we're talking about a couple months of work left, okay, maybe. A couple years is a bit unreasonable. If a dev was to simply half ass an ending, there's basically no point in trying to make an ending, in my opinion. You'd be spending time and effort making something that's going to suck and be yelled at, so it's a negative return.

Personally, I think it's a completely valid and pragmatic to stop development if it's negatively impacting your life. Like say game development is obstructing the dev's ability to pursue something good for them, like a relationship, a healthier lifestyle, or just taking a break to reset, and development isn't even going well, then fuck it, let them go. They're not a slave and shouldn't be treated like one. And then there's the crazy people who readily accuse devs of purposely milking a game or making a game for the sole of milking Patreon donos. You know how much work has to go into a game before it gets to a state where the returns are even worth doing that? I'm more inclined to believe a dev had an unsustainable work model that just gave out. There's no real way to recover from that.

 

[Game Lord]

What I'd really like to know though, is if so many of these devs do abandon their games for health reasons, what changed along the lines to where their health began to deteriorate?

Was it spending more time investing themselves in the game trying to add more content? Game engine software limitations hitting a wall and causing them headaches on their end? Developing the game isn't paying the bills so they can't spend as much time continuing to develop the game?

Whatever the reason may be, is the the developer communicating as much to let their supporters know as much or are they keeping it bottled up inside?

Either way, my suggestion on releasing a finished product, even if the finished product takes a nosedive (see Fahrenheit as a perfect example of this,) at least they can reflect that they started and, possibly more importantly, finished a difficult project. I think giving up should only be a last resort and my belief is for many of these developers abandoning their projects, it's not a last resort, it's just the easiest one is all.

 

[Ferghus]

What I'd really like to know though, is if so many of these devs do abandon their games for health reasons, what changed along the lines to where their health began to deteriorate?

Was it spending more time investing themselves in the game trying to add more content? Game engine software limitations hitting a wall and causing them headaches on their end? Developing the game isn't paying the bills so they can't spend as much time continuing to develop the game?

Whatever the reason may be, is the the developer communicating as much to let their supporters know as much or are they keeping it bottled up inside?

Either way, my suggestion on releasing a finished product, even if the finished product takes a nosedive (see Fahrenheit as a perfect example of this,) at least they can reflect that they started and, possibly more importantly, finished a difficult project. I think giving up should only be a last resort and my belief is for many of these developers abandoning their projects, it's not a last resort, it's just the easiest one is all.

It depends on the individual, but like I said before, fatigue and stress often compounds with existing risk factors. It could manifest from something as obvious as eye strain to internal organ damage. There's sometimes dietary risk factors like consuming more caffeine than they ought to keep up with work load, or eating fast food or junk food to cut down on energy/effort in cooking. As for psychological, you sometimes gets to a point where the stress becomes self destructive. It may cause them to lose their appetite, it could impact quality of sleep, or even be as severe as causing their hormones to go out of whack. The human body is a delicate thing. Oftentimes, people will ignore early signs of it for one reason or another, until it progresses to a point where you simply can't.

As for why don't they communicate, it usually comes from the experience of being ignored. If people were quick to blow off devs pausing game development due to mental health issues, what makes you think people are any more receptive if they disclose their very personal health issues. I've seen multiple threads where people are either indifferent, apathetic, or outright hostile because they refuse to believe it. Like I remember following the Lilith's Throne development blog and people were unbelievably toxic in the comments. It's no wonder devs don't share shit.

As for "last resort", I strongly disagree. I don't see the value in completing a game for the sake of completing it and I don't think they should feel guilty for giving up. I don't think anyone understands how much time, effort, and other material or immaterial costs it takes to make the game like the dev themselves. And the wrapup could be much more difficult than what they've done so far. You try to frame it like it'll be some kind of magical milestone that'll make it all worth it at the end, but that's not how that works. If you're already way in over your head, chances are you'll never finish. You just prolong the suffering.

 

[Game Lord]

I think you are equating job burnout/overload to a drug addiction. Yes, one's health may and can be impacted by stress but once they've got their health, both physical and mental well-being back in order, it's not like they have to give up on the game's development altogether.

It's like people whose jobs get the better of them. Do they need to stop working forever on account of needing to temporarily step away from what is causing them their health issues at that time? In all honesty, it's not the job that is really causing the issues to begin with either. It's the management of their own faculties that is.

I can understand anything that is life altering, such as cancer or something long-term debilitating, resulting in a game's outright cancellation but I'm of the belief most games being abandoned, this is not the case.

Obviously every case is going to be different as no two are alike but all too often in the games I was following (this game, Monster Girl Island, Sylphine to name but a few,) each was abandoned for their own reasons but only for this game do I believe was for honest to goodness health related reasons.

Again, my belief is most abandoned games are abandoned not due to legitimate health related reasons ultimately.

 

[Ferghus]

I think you are equating job burnout/overload to a drug addiction. Yes, one's health may and can be impacted by stress but once they've got their health, both physical and mental well-being back in order, it's not like they have to give up on the game's development altogether.

It's like people whose jobs get the better of them. Do they need to stop working forever on account of needing to temporarily step away from what is causing them their health issues at that time? In all honesty, it's not the job that is really causing the issues to begin with either. It's the management of their own faculties that is.

I can understand anything that is life altering, such as cancer or something long-term debilitating, resulting in a game's outright cancellation but I'm of the belief most games being abandoned, this is not the case.

Obviously every case is going to be different as no two are alike but all too often in the games I was following (this game, Monster Girl Island, Sylphine to name but a few,) each was abandoned for their own reasons but only for this game do I believe was for honest to goodness health related reasons.

Again, my belief is most abandoned games are abandoned not due to legitimate health related reasons ultimately.

I don't know where you got drug addiction from, but that wasn't what I was going for. Again, game development is generally not the job that puts food on an aspiring porn game dev's table. It's the day job. I don't think most people who had a sudden drop in health is so suicidal to jump back into their unprofitable pseudo second job that caused them to have those issues in the first place, especially if getting that ill prevents them from working their day job and the treatment to get them back on their feet is a drain on their finances. You're not forgetting that most devs effectively have two jobs, are you?

Dude, you don't get to decide whether a health related issue is "legitimate." Solo game development as a side job puts a strain on everything. You're sacrificing time and energy that you could be spending on something else, and you're doing it for an extended period of time. It makes no sense to keep going if it negatively affects your everyday life and has no signs of improving. You don't need to get cancer to decide that you have more important things to do than work your ass off on an unprofitable project for an indefinite amount of time.

 

[Game Lord]

You're assuming that most that are abandoning their games are doing so for "legitimate" health reasons. Legitimate in the sense that whether what was disclosed publicly for their health reason abandonment was actually even true to begin with. I gave you three games I recently was following where two used health reasons as their reasons for abandoning their games. This game, which I really believe was the case, and Sylphine which anyone following that game knows that guy was full of shit. You can be gullible and take whatever they say at face value when health reasons is used as often as it is here for the abandonment issue. I tend to not give the benefit of the doubt to most of these same developers breaking it out as often as they do. It's the easiest de facto standby excuse to throw out there so that hopefully those following won't grief the developer as much after the fact, especially if supporters were financially pledging money all along.

In this respect, I know we'll never see eye to eye on.

I'm just going to go with my belief that much of today's society are snowflakes. In every aspect and respect of its meaning. What yesteryear's folks deemed adversity, much of society today crumbles and breaks when met with a bout of it.

 

[Alex3Ton]

(Google translation.)
Wow, what a dialogue you have here. Have you tried writing game scripts? Such talent is wasted.

 

[Ferghus]

You're assuming that most that are abandoning their games are doing so for "legitimate" health reasons. Legitimate in the sense that whether what was disclosed publicly for their health reason abandonment was actually even true to begin with. I gave you three games I recently was following where two used health reasons as their reasons for abandoning their games. This game, which I really believe was the case, and Sylphine which anyone following that game knows that guy was full of shit. You can be gullible and take whatever they say at face value when health reasons is used as often as it is here for the abandonment issue. I tend to not give the benefit of the doubt to most of these same developers breaking it out as often as they do. It's the easiest de facto standby excuse to throw out there so that hopefully those following won't grief the developer as much after the fact, especially if supporters were financially pledging money all along.

In this respect, I know we'll never see eye to eye on.

I'm just going to go with my belief that much of today's society are snowflakes. In every aspect and respect of its meaning. What yesteryear's folks deemed adversity, much of society today crumbles and breaks when met with a bout of it.

You gave me the name of two games I'm not familiar with. I'm saying that "legitimate health reasons" is a vague phrase that doesn't have any inherent metric. What it means is going to differ between people. My personal stance is that a dev doesn't even need an excuse that other people will accept to abandon a game. You don't own the dev just because people collectively threw a few hundred, or even a few thousand dollars at them. With the attitude that a dev should finish a game that they start, even if it's not enjoyable and doesn't put bread on their table, a lot of now-successful games wouldn't even have existed. It's too huge of a commitment for anyone that lacks a safety net. I'm not asking you to believe and support every dev out there, I'm asking you to be empathetic and understand that game development is essentially a burden that not everyone can carry. Hell, most devs don't even get an audience, and you're basically asking for either all devs to devote themselves to the completion without exception, or all devs with games of worth to do it, at which point it looks a lot like entitlement.

As for the idea that "today's society are snowflakes", I'd like to remind you that it's the pre-millenial generations that struggle to adapt to a digital age and heavily rely on younger people to find answers and dumb it down for them. They're also the same at-risk group for having their identity stolen. Also, I'm pretty sure older folk are the reason why porn, porn games, and even sexual education wasn't very widespread. You've got to have tunnel vision if you've forgotten that the good old days included men who were too scared to be themselves in public and women who would accept being sexually harassed and assaulted as a normal part of life. That's not a badge of honor, that's just copium. The good old days fucking sucked, my dude. Society was fucking worse. I'd also remind you that it's the old rich dudes up there making all the shitty policy changes in the present too.
Edited because I don't want to get too into political talk.

 

[Game Lord]

Society today: my feelings, my feelings, they hurt, where's my safe space. Must retreat to it immediately!

 

[Ferghus]

Society today: my feelings, my feelings, they hurt, where's my safe space. Must retreat to it immediately!

Yesterday's society: I'm unhappy with my life so I belittle my wife and kids and pretend it's out of love. I also can't stand the thought of a woman knowing more than me, being stronger than me, or having any control over me. I'm not confident enough to talk to people about my problems because I'm scared they'll say mean things about me. I'm afraid of having or doing anything that makes people, but mostly me, think I'm less of a man.

They call it fragile masculinity for a reason.

 

[Palim palim]

Today: You share not my opinion, you are a Nazi

 

[Game Lord]

Today: You share not my opinion, you are a Nazi

Amen Brother.

And each side is right (in their minds) so you can't even have a civilized discussion nowadays much of the time.

 

[08/15Wixxer]

I stumbled upon this gem a week ago, while searching for a game with Spire like gameplay/combat.

I didn't expect much since the game was already abandoned. So I was pretty surprised by seeing the amount of content this game has to offer.

I'm having fun exploring the game world, interacting with all these different charakters you stumble across and expanding my card collection to build all kind of decks. And since I'm a loot hoarder, I realy like the option to build a vault. Being able to keep unique items, even if you die, apeals to the collector in me.

 

[Powerack]

Hope someone can pick up this project

Hope is all we can. But I still don't think that it will come to that. Authors often doesn't share their resources like images and code. Even if you can get most of it via tools like unren and even if you can make it work, it still is work of the original author you are building at.

 

[Ferghus]

Hope is all we can. But I still don't think that it will come to that. Authors often doesn't share their resources like images and code. Even if you can get most of it via tools like unren and even if you can make it work, it still is work of the original author you are building at.

Personally, I don't like the idea of some rando "picking up" a project. If someone lacking skill takes on the project, they're going to struggle even more than the dev did and are more likely to give up. If someone with completely different visions for the game shows up, the game is going to feel disjointed and may be retconed to the point of being unrecognizable. In either case, they'd be better off making their own game. And if they can't do that, what makes you think they can carry the development of someone else's game?