AT what Rating Should a DEV Seek Help?

[coffeeaddicted]

My own rule is 1 long or 2 short sentences per slide. This seems to be correspond with what most (top) games do here. But skipping isn't much about the dialog per slide, but how long dialogs last and what its actually doing for the story. From my own experience in most games you can literally skip 90% of the dialog and still follow the story without a problem. It doesn't help most game stories are very simple as its all about getting in everyone's pants. You learn what a character has a problem with, then have 2000 'filler' words, before reaching the conclusion where you fix the characters problem and get rewarded.

If you want to look into games with I would say good writing (for an adult game) I would look into Caribdis two games. There current game Eternum and finished game Once in a Life time. Both games have an overlapping non adult story that keeps the story interesting and flowing. The conversations between characters is in most cases is short and snappy.

It sounds like that the dialog isn't really something that carries the game but rather something that fills in the blanks.
I had planned to have the characters think and talk instead of narration. Narration is useful but i always feel that it is disconnected to the game. I will play on on the weekend with one of them just to see the dialog.
Though for my game it has a very real situation and it isn't really about sex, or is it?
I think playing Immoral Stories Rebecca, it uses a lot of narration. Though i am not sure if i should actually use it as well.
I probably repeat myself but for some reason i think the better way is to have the characters think and talk.

In my mind and from reading here, i think a situation can or should be revealed over time.
If the dialog has to be more or less brief, there isn't much to talk about. Which isn't a problem really. I think in my attempts i fell into the "i must tell everyone right away" trap. Where you start letting MC talk and explain.
But i think you carry the story with the images and show the player the typical day and let the other characters talk and think to explain the story.
I feel that is maybe the better way.
The one or two liners per slide is a good idea. What i really want to avoid is to bore the player.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

I found sex scenes particularly difficult in this regard: scripts that sounded very good when read all in one breath, suddenly turned out to be unreadable crap when they were in a textbox under some pictures.

There indeed difficult. At least from the dialog.
I sometimes think the dialog should be very minimal or not at all.
I mean what is the protagonist thinking? I like it or i despise it. The antagonist will probably think "Hey slut suck faster" or "you really good at this".
I mean in sex brain is basically dead. So there isn't much of talking really. Unless it's romantic perhaps.
But i think it depends also on the situation and how the characters are wired.

 

[Synx]

It sounds like that the dialog isn't really something that carries the game but rather something that fills in the blanks.
I had planned to have the characters think and talk instead of narration. Narration is useful but i always feel that it is disconnected to the game. I will play on on the weekend with one of them just to see the dialog.
Though for my game it has a very real situation and it isn't really about sex, or is it?
I think playing Immoral Stories Rebecca, it uses a lot of narration. Though i am not sure if i should actually use it as well.
I probably repeat myself but for some reason i think the better way is to have the characters think and talk.

In my mind and from reading here, i think a situation can or should be revealed over time.
If the dialog has to be more or less brief, there isn't much to talk about. Which isn't a problem really. I think in my attempts i fell into the "i must tell everyone right away" trap. Where you start letting MC talk and explain.
But i think you carry the story with the images and show the player the typical day and let the other characters talk and think to explain the story.
I feel that is maybe the better way.
The one or two liners per slide is a good idea. What i really want to avoid is to bore the player.

Dialog shouldn't fill in the blanks, they should push the story forward. The problem comes when your story is all about getting laid. When the story reaches the first sexual experience with a character, you have reached your goal. Even if its just a BJ or something. you know ok I'm there, now just got to seal the deal. At this point most dialog becomes obsolete, since you already are where you want to end up. But since one scene isn't enough for a single character the story gets dragged along, and the parts between the sex scenes become filler. You often just continue what you were already doing.

It's very common for games to start out really well, since the story is focused on build up, but when the first sexual experience with each character is reached, the ratings start to lower with commends about the story not going anywhere, story being dragged along, etc. The story has reached it conclusion, but since its not feasible to conclude a game after 1 sexual encounter per character it just continues along.

This wouldn't be the case if there is an overlapping story that isn't about sex. When you reach the first sexual encounters with each character, the dialog can just switch more from the flirting stuff to the overlapping story. Instead of the dialog being filler, the dialog instead pushes the story forward (and the sex scenes are in a weird way filler then, but nobody minds that ). Thats what the two games I mentioned above does. Especially in the one thats finishes you can notice the dialog becomes less flirtly and about sex the further you get in.

As for narration I would just avoid it. Narration only makes sense to explain whats happening on screen, and if you got to explain it your not using the visuals to the max. Especially since your characters will just be talking. Even in normal media only thing where narration makes sense is early on to set the scene, or with documentaries. I personally hate stories that tell everything even if its stupidly clear whats happening; like a scene telling MC takes his cloths off, before you see him in the shower in the next scene. ot only is the narration completely meaningless (who doesn't take off their cloths to take a shower), but can easily just be shows by a render. Narration is just being lazy in most cases in my opinion.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

Dialog shouldn't fill in the blanks, they should push the story forward. The problem comes when your story is all about getting laid. When the story reaches the first sexual experience with a character, you have reached your goal. Even if its just a BJ or something. you know ok I'm there, now just got to seal the deal. At this point most dialog becomes obsolete, since you already are where you want to end up. But since one scene isn't enough for a single character the story gets dragged along, and the parts between the sex scenes become filler. You often just continue what you were already doing.

It's very common for games to start out really well, since the story is focused on build up, but when the first sexual experience with each character is reached, the ratings start to lower with commends about the story not going anywhere, story being dragged along, etc. The story has reached it conclusion, but since its not feasible to conclude a game after 1 sexual encounter per character it just continues along.

This wouldn't be the case if there is an overlapping story that isn't about sex. When you reach the first sexual encounters with each character, the dialog can just switch more from the flirting stuff to the overlapping story. Instead of the dialog being filler, the dialog instead pushes the story forward (and the sex scenes are in a weird way filler then, but nobody minds that ). Thats what the two games I mentioned above does. Especially in the one thats finishes you can notice the dialog becomes less flirtly and about sex the further you get in.

As for narration I would just avoid it. Narration only makes sense to explain whats happening on screen, and if you got to explain it your not using the visuals to the max. Especially since your characters will just be talking. Even in normal media only thing where narration makes sense is early on to set the scene, or with documentaries. I personally hate stories that tell everything even if its stupidly clear whats happening; like a scene telling MC takes his cloths off, before you see him in the shower in the next scene. ot only is the narration completely meaningless (who doesn't take off their cloths to take a shower), but can easily just be shows by a render. Narration is just being lazy in most cases in my opinion.

Agree.

I think it is hard to make a "normal" story and a sex story at the same time.
I always found porn games that gave a real story about some serious problem to solve, not very convincing.

But yes, i think this why some games should end at one point since you reached your goal unless the designer defined some goal besides having sex.

As for dialog, yes.
Narrator can make sense, i suppose, but when you have the characters it's probably better to let the story unfold by them rather than have a narrator comment on events.
Though it can be powerful. Sometimes.

If i relate to a tv-show or movie, you don't know what the character actually things but what he does or says.
So i ask myself if even thoughts make sense. The reason is, when i am writing i tend to try to explain things which is probably not good.

So i give you an example. Originally i had the genius idea to make an intro of sorts. So character sits and explains the situation. After all that was done, i thought, mmm.. that isn't right.
It looked odd.
Now i just begin the story with some thoughts and dialog. Like as close as someone would talk in real life.
But the thoughts. I am not sure.
Like i said, this is when i compare a movie to a VN. VN's are probably not the same and so some thoughts are ok perhaps.

For progress of the story i think you probably right. I am fazinated by the idea of having two paths. Sex is an important path for the overall arc since it's a sex game. Though the original story should be preserved and the glue that holds the game.

You gave me some very good ideas. Just have to translate into my story.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I had planned to have the characters think and talk instead of narration.

Be careful with thinking. Too much internal monologues and introspection is as bad as narration. It's not possible 100% of the time, but the golden rule for Visual Novel(-like) is "show, don't tell".


If the girl is charmed by what the player did, make her smile, blush, bit her lip, or have "this pose" that girls have mastered. Whatever fit how much charmed she is.

If you goes for an approach that permit to show scenes that happen outside of MC knowledge, the girl being aroused can be shown by a really short scene where she go back to her room and search for her vibrator. Else you can make the MC pass in front of the door and hear her moaning in pleasure ; be careful, this give knowledge to the MC, he can't believe the girl is a pure saint if he hear her masturbate crazily.
A way to avoid giving too much knowledge to the MC is to make him witness a discussion (possibly through phone) between the girl and a friend. The MC will then hear enough to tell the player what he need to know, but not enough for the MC himself to know that he was the person that make her wet her panty and rush to masturbate.


Where it's the most difficult to avoid internal monologues and thinking is when it come to the MC himself.
Even if you don't go for a full first person point of view that will never represent the MC, you can rarely build the scene in such way that you'll see him enough to express his thoughts through his expression and poses. But there's still way to limit this.

By example you can make him momentarily stutter, or search his words, to express is discomfort:
girl "What, I'm not the first girl you see topless, right ?"
mc "Er... O-of course not. What do you think ? I've s-seen many girls topless before... No, not so many, I don't pass my time looking at topless girls... yo-you're not the first, it's... it's what I mean."

What you can also do, when it's time for a long introspection, is to make him go to a bar and have an half drank talk with the barman. He can also talk to the mandatory best friend that double as confessor and therapist. It have the same effect that an introspection, but with more dynamism since there's someone who answer. It can also permit to shorten a bit what have to be said if you make the barman/friend say something like, "oh, you mean that [whatever]". It can shorten long explanation into something that would looks like:
MC "So there's this girl, she's charming, we pass a lot of time together, and yesterday we kissed..."
Friend "And you fell in love. What's the problem, it's not the first time."
MC "Well... it's my sister in law."

More anonymously, if the setting permit it, the MC can also go to an online forum/chat and either ask for advice or write a confession, it depend of what have to be said.

Something that is also almost never used is to rely on pets. There's games where the MC have a pet... Who don't talk to his pet when he struggle in life ? You can even use a "meow" or "waf" as a deus ex machina-like approach:
MC "You see, kissing her was really magic, I never felt something like that with any girl I kissed before."
Cat "meowww ?"
MC "Well, yes there's a problem, she's my sister-in-law."
Cat meeeeow !"
MC "You're right, who care ?"

 

[coffeeaddicted]

Be careful with thinking. Too much internal monologues and introspection is as bad as narration. It's not possible 100% of the time, but the golden rule for Visual Novel(-like) is "show, don't tell".


If the girl is charmed by what the player did, make her smile, blush, bit her lip, or have "this pose" that girls have mastered. Whatever fit how much charmed she is.

If you goes for an approach that permit to show scenes that happen outside of MC knowledge, the girl being aroused can be shown by a really short scene where she go back to her room and search for her vibrator. Else you can make the MC pass in front of the door and hear her moaning in pleasure ; be careful, this give knowledge to the MC, he can't believe the girl is a pure saint if he hear her masturbate crazily.
A way to avoid giving too much knowledge to the MC is to make him witness a discussion (possibly through phone) between the girl and a friend. The MC will then hear enough to tell the player what he need to know, but not enough for the MC himself to know that he was the person that make her wet her panty and rush to masturbate.


Where it's the most difficult to avoid internal monologues and thinking is when it come to the MC himself.
Even if you don't go for a full first person point of view that will never represent the MC, you can rarely build the scene in such way that you'll see him enough to express his thoughts through his expression and poses. But there's still way to limit this.

By example you can make him momentarily stutter, or search his words, to express is discomfort:
girl "What, I'm not the first girl you see topless, right ?"
mc "Er... O-of course not. What do you think ? I've s-seen many girls topless before... No, not so many, I don't pass my time looking at topless girls... yo-you're not the first, it's... it's what I mean."

What you can also do, when it's time for a long introspection, is to make him go to a bar and have an half drank talk with the barman. He can also talk to the mandatory best friend that double as confessor and therapist. It have the same effect that an introspection, but with more dynamism since there's someone who answer. It can also permit to shorten a bit what have to be said if you make the barman/friend say something like, "oh, you mean that [whatever]". It can shorten long explanation into something that would looks like:
MC "So there's this girl, she's charming, we pass a lot of time together, and yesterday we kissed..."
Friend "And you fell in love. What's the problem, it's not the first time."
MC "Well... it's my sister in law."

More anonymously, if the setting permit it, the MC can also go to an online forum/chat and either ask for advice or write a confession, it depend of what have to be said.

Something that is also almost never used is to rely on pets. There's games where the MC have a pet... Who don't talk to his pet when he struggle in life ? You can even use a "meow" or "waf" as a deus ex machina-like approach:
MC "You see, kissing her was really magic, I never felt something like that with any girl I kissed before."
Cat "meowww ?"
MC "Well, yes there's a problem, she's my sister-in-law."
Cat meeeeow !"
MC "You're right, who care ?"

Kind of what i thought.

Well, my story has a female MC and her husband has a mental problem. He sees people they only exist in his mind.
So for that i am using the sprites. Making the figure transparent to emphasize that it isn't a real person.

All point you made make me really think.
My problem is just, what do i do with a person that doesn't talk at the moment. Perhaps just pause?

I have to include some locations and scenes where things can be witnessed. For that i have the workplace and a restaurant so far but there are more options for sure.

Pet's. Yes i noticed. Not a lot of games actually have games as an element of companionship.

I have to translate everything into my project. Won't be easy. But i just building anyway.

Thank you so much, this is much to take in but i have to burn in the "Show, don't tell" part.

 

[The Rogue Trader]

Well, my story has a female MC and her husband has a mental problem. He sees people they only exist in his mind.
So for that i am using the sprites. Making the figure transparent to emphasize that it isn't a real person.

At the cost of going against the general consensus (I use internal narration a lot) I'd say that I feel this isn't a great idea. It's the husband that is hallucinating, while your POV character is the wife. So, IMHO, unless she is so stressed that "sometimes I feel like I'm seeing them too", you should just show the player the scene through her eyes.

For example, the game opens with MC and her husband having a perfectly normal and apparently irrelevant conversation when, without warning, he starts having lines like:
"They asked about when you're going to change their linens. Why didn't you answer? WHY DIDN'T YOU ANSWER?"
(at this point I'd add an "I gritted my teeth, my fingernails drawing blood from the palms of my hands", but you can just show a picture of her being clearly very distressed).
You don't tell the players he's seeing things that do not exist. They probably suspect, but you're giving them a reason to keep reading, to find out if they're right.
They fight, he hits her: unable to stand it any longer she takes her coat and drives to the bar, where she has a couple of drinks, meets a random guy (the future lover/pimp) and:
"It's my husband. He... Well, sometimes he sees... No. Let's not talk about that." (so you can keep some other details for later).

An excellent example of a movie with a character seeing things that aren't there (or at least things that nobody else sees) is "Harvey", with a wonderful James Stewart. You can watch it again for ideas, even if that is comedy and you're aiming for drama.

My problem is just, what do i do with a person that doesn't talk at the moment. Perhaps just pause?

There's always the good old "..."
It's overused and some people can't stand it any longer, but it served well enough for, like, a couple of centuries. Maybe more.

    "Tell me about Guy Nielson.":
        show gina annoyed
        gina "The art teach? He's totally a weirdo!"
        mc "I got the same idea, yes."
        gina "Please, teach, don't ruin a wonderfully meh day: don't have me talk about him."
        mc "Why? Did he make inappropriate comments?"
        show gina pouting
        gina "..."
        mc "Did he go beyond simply inappropriate comments?"
        gina "..."

I have to include some locations and scenes where things can be witnessed. For that i have the workplace and a restaurant so f

You also have a useful plot device in the relationship between the wife and the lover. You can decide that she needs to vent her anger and frustration, so she opens up with this guy she just met, explaining her problems and feelings to him.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

At the cost of going against the general consensus (I use internal narration a lot) I'd say that I feel this isn't a great idea. It's the husband that is hallucinating, while your POV character is the wife. So, IMHO, unless she is so stressed that "sometimes I feel like I'm seeing them too", you should just show the player the scene through her eyes.

For example, the game opens with MC and her husband having a perfectly normal and apparently irrelevant conversation when, without warning, he starts having lines like:
"They asked about when you're going to change their linens. Why didn't you answer? WHY DIDN'T YOU ANSWER?"
(at this point I'd add an "I gritted my teeth, my fingernails drawing blood from the palms of my hands", but you can just show a picture of her being clearly very distressed).
You don't tell the players he's seeing things that do not exist. They probably suspect, but you're giving them a reason to keep reading, to find out if they're right.
They fight, he hits her: unable to stand it any longer she takes her coat and drives to the bar, where she has a couple of drinks, meets a random guy (the future lover/pimp) and:
"It's my husband. He... Well, sometimes he sees... No. Let's not talk about that." (so you can keep some other details for later).

An excellent example of a movie with a character seeing things that aren't there (or at least things that nobody else sees) is "Harvey", with a wonderful James Stewart. You can watch it again for ideas, even if that is comedy and you're aiming for drama.


There's always the good old "..."
It's overused and some people can't stand it any longer, but it served well enough for, like, a couple of centuries. Maybe more.

    "Tell me about Guy Nielson.":
        show gina annoyed
        gina "The art teach? He's totally a weirdo!"
        mc "I got the same idea, yes."
        gina "Please, teach, don't ruin a wonderfully meh day: don't have me talk about him."
        mc "Why? Did he make inappropriate comments?"
        show gina pouting
        gina "..."
        mc "Did he go beyond simply inappropriate comments?"
        gina "..."

You also have a useful plot device in the relationship between the wife and the lover. You can decide that she needs to vent her anger and frustration, so she opens up with this guy she just met, explaining her problems and feelings to him.

Well, i think Anne raised good points which i will take to heart.

Though, occasional are probably ok.
I think if it goes over a long period of time it may get boring to the player.

Yeah, the "..." is a favorite. It's an indication of thinking.

I have to really think about how this story should develop. The idea is set but you got to make it interesting to keep interest alive.
Sadly, there is no internet cafe. Strangely, these places got out of fashion but are great social hubs and would actually serve to the story. So i have to think of something. Usually it's the market, bar or whatever. But it's something you see all the time.
I really should look into how to make things.

As for the husband. I don't want to start at the very beginning. So it should be already known to her. Not to the player of course.
The thing is, people with these conditions do really have these sights and it's quite sad really. But for the story it's a great enabler. Should she stay and be the caring wife or should she look somewhere else.
My plan was to have 3 path's for her. Stay, Office naughty and bimbo naughty.
So in a sense romantic with problems, slut and slave.
But nothing is written in stone yet. So i have to think about.
Writing a story is really something, isn't it.

 

[PJWhoopie]

Lots of good points, thanks for the advice...

That said, "in excess" is a very subjective term. A writer might be under the impression he's giving useful information (theme, setting, atmosphere) with his "filler" lines.

I think this is why it is so valuable to have an extra set of eyes (or sets of eyes) look at your work. The Developer probably thinks every bit of it is important... and maybe clouded by their own bias towards their writing, their story, their vision...

The Fresh set of eyes can tell you, this is pretty wordy.... less is more.

One that really got my attention for saying so much without clunky text boxes is Unleashed, after I played that, I went back over my own script with a sheering knife.

 

[The Rogue Trader]

Lots of good points, thanks for the advice...



I think this is why it is so valuable to have an extra set of eyes (or sets of eyes) look at your work. The Developer probably thinks every bit of it is important... and maybe clouded by their own bias towards their writing, their story, their vision...

The Fresh set of eyes can tell you, this is pretty wordy.... less is more.

One that really got my attention for saying so much without clunky text boxes is Unleashed, after I played that, I went back over my own script with a sheering knife.

Yes, proofreading and editing is a vital step in any kind of creative writing (tbh proofreading is a vital part of any writing, especially when you're not a native speaker like me and many would-be developers).
This is where angels like osanaiko can save the day.
Typos can be reported by the players, and you correcting them can build trust between you and your audience. But style issues could easily grow into a stumbling block.

If you are in a team, the others should give feedback. If your updates or questions are met with silence or one-word sentences, your motivation could end up quite battered.

Even devs that aim to be one-man wonders need at least need a proofreader and a test audience.

I'll give an eye to unleashed. I've little time to play now, and lots of titles have already been suggested in this thread alone but any game where the MC's father is alive deserves a try (this coming from someone that exterminated the whole families of two MCs in a single game!)

 

[coffeeaddicted]

The more i read the more i am unsure about all of this.

Am i a good writer (or good enough), am i a good DAZ dude (or good enough) or am i just having a dream that never get's realized.

There were many good point's made and i think the labor that has to go in into making a game or even just a VN is staggering.
I know now because i end up sometimes doing a whole day of renders only to toss them because they did not really shown what i want them to show.

So far, i am not too concerned about if anyone likes it. And, i am not aiming to monetize it as i believe i want to do what i think is right.
If this turns out to be a fools errand, i think i am ok with that. It is a fantastic journey and something you learn about how it actually works to make a game. Even if it's trash.

I have a story in my head. I know where it should lead, but i know i can't do what i truly want it to be because i am just not that good.
Coding. This is the worst part. Not knowing much and trying to accomplish what you actually want to do is hard. So i have to aim for small things to make it somewhat interesting for the player.

The expressions and poses. I think these were very good points. Not to have it appear static, not to much thinking, let them talk and act. So it's dynamic and interesting.
I know, even with the story in my head, that i am aiming for corruption. To get to a lewd part over and over.
I think that is ok.
If i ever finish this i think i want to make a serious game with some sex but not too much.
DAZ and RenPy are huge opportunities to make a truly great novella that tells a serious story beyond getting in someones pants.

For now, i am trying to make what i can in the time i have. Perhaps it will be something or nothing.
But i find this exchange of ideas and tips really helpful. Why? Because overconfidence is what kills you and drives you into despair.
I know my limits and my machine is average and i am not planning to invest more really. I don't even plan to be a great or successful game developer.
That sounds bad, doesn't it.
But that is ok. There still can be coming out something nice that others can enjoy.
So i am continuing what i am doing now.

Well, hope this exchange continues. It's so fascinating.

 

[anne O'nymous]

The more i read the more i am unsure about all of this.

You are looking at the problem from the wrong side.

Everything that have been said in this thread is what should be done, but when have you seen someone do all this together ?
Tolkien put a lot of what would be seen as filling scenes in The Lord of the Rings ; the first chapter is purely useless in regard of the story and could be replaced by a dozen of lines. Asimov is sometimes too technical, explaining how the impossible still could be possible "if", while nobody really care since science fiction do not need to respect physic laws. Picasso's most known painting is Guernica, while Dali surrealism is a pure figurative approach. The most memorable scene in Taxi Driver is the mirror scene, while Apocalypse Now have so many introspection scenes ; I never counted, but I'm almost sure that the majority of Martin Sheen lines are narrated and not said.
Six examples of success, and all of them include at least one thing that should never be done...

It's important to know what should be done and what should be avoided, more than it's important to effectively do, or avoid, them. Then, you know that "here" your game have a flaw, and what you need is not to remove it at all cost. Sometimes you can't remove it, so you compensate it, finding a way to insert this naturally in the flow of the story.
Let's say that you need to have an introspection scene mid story. It's an important moment when the player have to decide what future he want for the MC, so you need to summarize the key moment and weight their pros and cons. Then what you need is to create the condition for this introspection to feel natural. The MC can go back home totally drunk and have an argument with his reflect in the mirror, he can have an acid trip, or he can have seen some news on TV and it made him wonder what he did with his life. Make the introspection feel like it naturally fall in place, and you don't need to care about the fact that you shouldn't have an introspection scene.

Am i a good writer (or good enough), am i a good DAZ dude (or good enough) or am i just having a dream that never get's realized.

Have you seen the games available ? Being just "good enough" for at least one of those twos already put you a bit above the average.

There were many good point's made and i think the labor that has to go in into making a game or even just a VN is staggering.

It is, all honest game authors would say it. But you have an advantage over most of them, you realized it before you started. What you've to do now is not to give up, but to change your approach in order to include this factor.

Don't focus on what you want to do, more than you focus on what you can do. Do you want to tell the story you've in your mind, and are you ready to do the best you can for this ? If the answer is yes to both, then go for it, period.

I know my limits and my machine is average and i am not planning to invest more really. I don't even plan to be a great or successful game developer.
That sounds bad, doesn't it.

That sound realist, and realism is what you'll need the most as creator.

But that is ok. There still can be coming out something nice that others can enjoy.

I'm almost sure that I talk for the majority while saying that being entertained is all what we expect.
Your game will perhaps be average, and so what ? I follow few games that are horrible, and I'm sure that we all have few games that we will never admit having played, and even less following. We found them entertaining for whatever reason, and when you've a public base over 5 millions peoples, you'll always find at least some that will have this "whatever reason" to be entertained by your game. And since this is the worse possible case, it also mean that your game will find its public.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

You are looking at the problem from the wrong side.

Everything that have been said in this thread is what should be done, but when have you seen someone do all this together ?

I think i got the point what i should do. Well, i explained it in my previous post.
This is an important lesson for me. Now, i make the character move in every scene as that it doesn't look static or lazy. Like normal people would do.
And have a dialog instead of thoughts. Well, here and there is a thought but mostly they talk.

It is, all honest game authors would say it. But you have an advantage over most of them, you realized it before you started. What you've to do now is not to give up, but to change your approach in order to include this factor.

Don't focus on what you want to do, more than you focus on what you can do. Do you want to tell the story you've in your mind, and are you ready to do the best you can for this ? If the answer is yes to both, then go for it, period.

When i think i got a start, i probably will posted it here. So everyone can look at it, try it out and say what they think.

When i am doing a scene (a picture) i look at it, even if i already rendered it and i ask myself, is this how you would lay, stay or sit?
It's amazing to find out that it is actually unrealistic. So i change it to what seems realistic. I think one of the pitfalls i find myself sometimes in, when you are using a pose and that is it. But you really got to change it to fit the scene.
So i do less renders a day now because i need to keep attention to the details.
Overall it should look like how people would behave. If it's a brawl, there should be anger, yelling, fists flying and impact on the others. Sounds easy but it isn't.
Though this is still all in my ability.
But renders are one aspect. Everyone is as good as they are.
I started a while ago to get things done with lesser assets. DAZ itself has many things for what you can buy some addon. It helped me greatly to watch some videos to discover that you can make dust for example. Or other effects.
Some things are better done after the render.
Anyway, as for the story i started to write down what i want to have happen. It makes it easier to not lose sight of what you planned. If you like me, you forget what you want to buy at the store next day. So i sometimes need to write that down.
So the same applies to the story.
But the big question for me is always, what scene makes sense. Which one doesn't and which does. So i assume i do it like the studios. I render and later i move them to a folder rejected. Maybe later on, they will fit.
So it's not all in vain but it's a long process.
On the plus side, i switched to make quick renders now to speed things up. Once it appears ok, i do the quality renders. Well, whatever the machine can produce.

That sound realist, and realism is what you'll need the most as creator.

Yes, i am aware what i can archive and what not. I am ok with that. Doesn't mean that it won't look good but it will be more on the average side which isn't bad.

I'm almost sure that I talk for the majority while saying that being entertained is all what we expect.
Your game will perhaps be average, and so what ? I follow few games that are horrible, and I'm sure that we all have few games that we will never admit having played, and even less following. We found them entertaining for whatever reason, and when you've a public base over 5 millions peoples, you'll always find at least some that will have this "whatever reason" to be entertained by your game. And since this is the worse possible case, it also mean that your game will find its public.

Reminds about the question, hey you did not listen to Abba when you were young or did you?
No, of course not.
Of course we all did.

So this is ok. I do like some of the real average games. They sometimes have themes that are really great. Even if a game has not so great dialogs, it still is worth playing.
There are lot of great titles but i mostly feel, there aren't for me.
I could give examples but that would not be helpful.
My bottom line is that i can do it but i worry if i ever release it, can i take critic? I hope. I don't want to imagine how some author feel if their game get bad reviews or worst.
How do you cope with that?

Anyway, i feel good and that is what is important i am very lucky to met so many great people on this board. You included.
Though i do regret that in all my life that i never really started to code. I was like so many that just were gaming instead.
You supposed to be creative with a computer but i did the opposite.
The C64 was something great. The only machine were you actually had to type something in to produce something on the screen.
Today is so much easier.

Anyway, thank you so much

 

[osanaiko]

yester64 Anne's reply to your post above is excellent excellent excellent

One more thing I would add: you mentioned you threw away some renders because they did not capture what you wanted in your imagination.

This is good and bad - it's good to be able to recognise and discard completed content that is not up to the standard you want. ***But*** it's bad because - you are generally going to be the number one worst critic of your own outputs: nearly every other player will not even notice the small mistakes that seem so obvious to you. Perfectionism is the absolute enemy of progress when doing creative work.

Set yourself an unambitious goal, and work work towards it, only focussing on 80% quality. then when you complete the target, if you have time to spare, polish a little to improve quality. But shipping a product is more important than perfect quality. Only by shipping and completing small steps can you learn from the process, and also give out to the world so you can get feedback.

Good luck!

 

[coffeeaddicted]

yester64 Anne's reply to your post above is excellent excellent excellent

One more thing I would add: you mentioned you threw away some renders because they did not capture what you wanted in your imagination.

This is good and bad - it's good to be able to recognise and discard completed content that is not up to the standard you want. ***But*** it's bad because - you are generally going to be the number one worst critic of your own outputs: nearly every other player will not even notice the small mistakes that seem so obvious to you. Perfectionism is the absolute enemy of progress when doing creative work.

Set yourself an unambitious goal, and work work towards it, only focussing on 80% quality. then when you complete the target, if you have time to spare, polish a little to improve quality. But shipping a product is more important than perfect quality. Only by shipping and completing small steps can you learn from the process, and also give out to the world so you can get feedback.

Good luck!

Mm.. that is probably true.

I should specify more.
When i talk about realism i usual mean how it appears to me.

I noticed for example how poses have women walk in high heels. It seems a little unrealistic and sometimes they are walking like the would walk in sneakers.
So i make my own poses for that.

But i am not tossing them and delete them. I usually keep them in an archive. You never know if you need them.
There is of course a valid point you are making. My perception my fool me. To others it may seem ok.
I know i am getting stuck sometimes with hair for example.
Now you can move her or you use dforce to do it's magic. But sometimes it isn't right. So i work and lose myself in this task. Not that the outcome looks better. It probably has it's limits.

So i can make them and render them to have a set and later refine them if needed.

Renders always take time. Mm.. no, it's the loading of the scene that takes time. So every time i have to reload i could do something else.

I will take it into my consideration though. Because this is a very valid point.

 

[doku99]

Very interesting thread to read with a lot of good points. Ambir especially made some really great ones. PJWhoopie I thought your responses were pretty dickish and dismissive at the start but at least you are more open to listening now it seems

People are right, reviews are only good for so much, while money talks. While a game full of awful reviews probably has something wrong with it, a game can have amazing reviews and still make no money, and a game can have terrible reviews can still make huge cash. And these point to different things, like others have said. Money is ultimately what speaks to real appeal, not reviews.

The Rogue Trader brought up Indecent Desires and Battle For Luvia, talking about how one succeeded and how one didn't. And the difference between these is very clear: you can make a very deep, complex and well written game, but if it's not hot, people aren't going to vote with their wallets for it. That is the #1 decider of whether a game makes it or breaks it. The game needs to turn people on, it needs to make people feel hot. That's why you can have games that are pretty shallow, simple, with just okay art, that make tons of money, it's for that simple reason: it makes people come and come back for more.

Often the things that turn people on the most can also be the things that offends others. So the response to your game can end up very polarized. That is fine. Better that then to make a game that offends no one but is bland. yester64 mentioned futa which is a good example. Futa has a huge audience (just go on any hentai site, futa will be rampant), but it also has a vocal minority of detractors who can be loud and petty. Same is usually true for any non-vanilla kink and you have to just ignore the complainers because they are not in your target audience.

So yeah if you're making a game and you want it to be successful, your number one concern should be whether or not you can make something hot. I can think of several games that I have played that are technically great and on paper should cater to my preferences, but just ... Aren't very hot and don't turn me on. Doesn't matter how "good" the game is then, I will not be motivated to give my support to it. I can leave it a nice review for effort which I usually do because good work deserve praise, but whether I am really invested in development or personally interested, that's not for sure. On the other hand, if a game is great porn...

So, a not-so-good game that is amazingly hot will succeed, an amazing game that is not-so-hot probably won't, and you probably can't go by reviews when it comes to this. Making an amazing game that is amazingly hot is obviously the best, but you can have one without the other. It must be hot. And the best way to make it hot is to make what you find hot, not what you think others will like. If you went by what the most vocal people on F95 say they want, you would probably end up with the most bland inoffensive piece of shit ever.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

Very interesting thread to read with a lot of good points. Ambir especially made some really great ones. PJWhoopie I thought your responses were pretty dickish and dismissive at the start but at least you are more open to listening now it seems

People are right, reviews are only good for so much, while money talks. While a game full of awful reviews probably has something wrong with it, a game can have amazing reviews and still make no money, and a game can have terrible reviews can still make huge cash. And these point to different things, like others have said. Money is ultimately what speaks to real appeal, not reviews.

The Rogue Trader brought up Indecent Desires and Battle For Luvia, talking about how one succeeded and how one didn't. And the difference between these is very clear: you can make a very deep, complex and well written game, but if it's not hot, people aren't going to vote with their wallets for it. That is the #1 decider of whether a game makes it or breaks it. The game needs to turn people on, it needs to make people feel hot. That's why you can have games that are pretty shallow, simple, with just okay art, that make tons of money, it's for that simple reason: it makes people come and come back for more.

Often the things that turn people on the most can also be the things that offends others. So the response to your game can end up very polarized. That is fine. Better that then to make a game that offends no one but is bland. yester64 mentioned futa which is a good example. Futa has a huge audience (just go on any hentai site, futa will be rampant), but it also has a vocal minority of detractors who can be loud and petty. Same is usually true for any non-vanilla kink and you have to just ignore the complainers because they are not in your target audience.

So yeah if you're making a game and you want it to be successful, your number one concern should be whether or not you can make something hot. I can think of several games that I have played that are technically great and on paper should cater to my preferences, but just ... Aren't very hot and don't turn me on. Doesn't matter how "good" the game is then, I will not be motivated to give my support to it. I can leave it a nice review for effort which I usually do because good work deserve praise, but whether I am really invested in development or personally interested, that's not for sure. On the other hand, if a game is great porn...

So, a not-so-good game that is amazingly hot will succeed, an amazing game that is not-so-hot probably won't, and you probably can't go by reviews when it comes to this. Making an amazing game that is amazingly hot is obviously the best, but you can have one without the other. It must be hot. And the best way to make it hot is to make what you find hot, not what you think others will like. If you went by what the most vocal people on F95 say they want, you would probably end up with the most bland inoffensive piece of shit ever.

I really would like a definition of hot aka porn.

To me, a game like Downfall is really hot even if it has not any animations. It's written ok, has ok renders but it has all these naughty paths.
Futa wouldn't be something that makes me personally hot.
There is even a game like Immoral Stories that is getting some things right and is hot to me.

I think for me personally, i call it a success if people are interested. Not because people pay but they play it. This would be the ultimate gratification for me. And if some people donate, that's fine too.

But it's probably a correct assessment that if people aren't getting hot they won't like it and therefore not pay.

 

[Ambir]

I really would like a definition of hot aka porn.

High quality art and animations is what sells. Now, who it sells to depends on who finds said high quality art 'hot'. This enters the issue of 'is your target demographic large enough', as well as the one of 'are you advertising your game properly to your target demographic'.

A game that is too niche might have issues getting supporters, and if you dont advertise to the right groups, you might likewise have some issues.

I think for me personally, i call it a success if people are interested. Not because people pay but they play it. This would be the ultimate gratification for me. And if some people donate, that's fine too.

But it's probably a correct assessment that if people aren't getting hot they won't like it and therefore not pay.

The issue is, people might be willing to tell you that it's a neat game, but if they aren't even interested in supporting you, then can you be certain that they truly like your game?

No matter how many awesome reviews you get, if your wallet flatlines because no one cares enough about your game to drop a buck, then your game probably isn't as interesting as people may make it seem, no?

 

[doku99]

I really would like a definition of hot aka porn.

To me, a game like Downfall is really hot even if it has not any animations. It's written ok, has ok renders but it has all these naughty paths.
Futa wouldn't be something that makes me personally hot.
There is even a game like Immoral Stories that is getting some things right and is hot to me.

I think for me personally, i call it a success if people are interested. Not because people pay but they play it. This would be the ultimate gratification for me. And if some people donate, that's fine too.

But it's probably a correct assessment that if people aren't getting hot they won't like it and therefore not pay.

What makes something hot? That's totally subjective. But it has to be hot for someone is what I mean. Some games try really hard to be very neat and polished and have amazing mechanics but that doesn't really matter too much for popularity if it isn't making people fap lol. At that point, the audience can just go on Steam and play a non-porn game. Nobody comes to find porn games because they want to sit at the cutting edge of video game innovation. It's just a nice bonus that can polish the experience.

But on what makes something hot, it's subjective but that's why you should make what you find hot. Make the type of game you think would make you really horny lol. Then even as it's subjective there will guaranteed be other people who feel the same way and like the same stuff

 

[coffeeaddicted]

High quality art and animations is what sells. Now, who it sells to depends on who finds said high quality art 'hot'. This enters the issue of 'is your target demographic large enough', as well as the one of 'are you advertising your game properly to your target demographic'.

A game that is too niche might have issues getting supporters, and if you dont advertise to the right groups, you might likewise have some issues.



The issue is, people might be willing to tell you that it's a neat game, but if they aren't even interested in supporting you, then can you be certain that they truly like your game?

No matter how many awesome reviews you get, if your wallet flatlines because no one cares enough about your game to drop a buck, then your game probably isn't as interesting as people may make it seem, no?

That's fair.
I think to me the question is, what do i want to archive.
Is my marker the income from a game or the satisfaction that some people like it?

I am too lame to make animations. Animations require a real good expertise and software to make it look good. Neither of these skills i have. So i work with what i can do. Make the scene interesting.
Someone who has the skills or hires someone to do it for them, may have a winner.

My outset was and still is this. If someone likes to pay, that's fine. I know that whatever i am creating will be in the bin at one point. No matter how good a game is, it will eventually land there.
But of course there are these special games that have the certain feel and look.
There is however the fact that some games, mostly older ones, that have a fan base. This is critical as if a game has a fan base, it will draw others in it as well, even if there not yet a fan.
The same fact that most people follow what Kim Kardashian does rather than a person that has talent and skills. But she draws the crowds. No matter how meaningless it is.

An example where i think, (and i am probably wrong for the majority of users) is Room2Rent. The game has fantastic renders, a nice story but game mechanics that repel most of them. It seems he doesn't get a lot of supporters.
Still, i really like that game. So i am one of the targeted audiences of that game.
I usually play games, any game, and try to overcome obstacles. Today, games are getting easier. In the early days, games were harder to solve.
This always made me think why people want a mod for a game. I always asked myself why people don't try different path in a game to get all angles. But i think people really just want to play the lewd part. Not sure if i am right on this but that is my impression.
So today's expectation is pretty high for a game to be easy in order to actually play it.
Now for porn games, they usually have to have great renders. A female that most will like and some naughty kinks to sell.
But to me most of them are rather dull. Perhaps i played too many already to appreciate the games that are successful.

I do agree to your points. The wallet is the ultimate marker if you want to measure success.

In the end i will see it for myself if people like it only by words or with money. My life doesn't depend on it though. I have a real job with good income. This is just a hobby really.

I really believe you should always do what you really want to do and not what others want you to do and that ultimately will collide with what you should do to be successful.
At least that is what i think. I may be wrong, but i am not aiming to have a killer game.

One of the best games i ever played, where LucasArts Games. They were all well written and stories that made you laugh and challenged you by solving puzzles.
They were really money makers at their times. The same applies surely to porn games as well. If everything is right, people pay.