"Bad" Games

[suprisedcrankyface]

My hierarchy had absolutely no consideration of the writing of the plot of a game, merely the creation of the actual product. The writing is the same as writing anywhere. It's based on skill, ability, talent, and dedication and even then there will be a miss. The most popular authors on the planet put out stinkers sometimes.

Yeh, just pointing out that good writing is the heart of it all, everything depends on that - its what separates a good visual artist from a game (and vice versa).

 

[tanstaafl]

Yeh, just pointing out that good writing is the heart of it all, everything depends on that - its what separates a good visual artist from a game (and vice versa).

Yeah, we're agreed on that. The thing is though is that devs, or at least devs that know what they're doing, separate everything into individual, actionable tasks. I should have been clear that I wasn't talking about writing, but it didn't even occur to me to point out that no dev worth their salt would include making the game and writing the story as part of the same thing, except for as criteria for a finished product.

 

[defnotalt]

I have honestly always wondered why BaD and other 3DCG Daz games are so incredibly popular in comparison to everything else in this site. If I had to make a guess, maybe this more or less realistic 3DCG style is more appealing to normies? Normies being just average people who are into normal vanilla fetishes. I assume the story writing is good too, but that alone does not explain it, since 2D style games I've played with great story barely have a fraction of their success.

Personally, I just cannot stand those average-looking Daz models and I'm also more into fantasy-esque stories, rather than real life society stuff. I kinda feel wrong saying this, but I think I prefer Koikatsu models over Daz

Such is life though, different strokes for different folks.

 

[tanstaafl]

I assume the story writing is good too, but that alone does not explain it

It absolutely does. Story, for a huge chunk of people, is that important.

since 2D style games I've played with great story

Subjective, but I think it's a combination of a few things. I haven't played BaDIK in quite a while, but from what I remember the story was simple, not over the top, and didn't hammer down on too many of the more fringe kinks. Basically, the dev found a good sweet spot.

As for the graphics, my own personal theory is that people that just hate Daz models have more sensitive uncanny valley trigger than most people. Not a criticism at all, it just explains the flat aversion to the style.

 

[defnotalt]

It absolutely does. Story, for a huge chunk of people, is that important.

It's not that good story writing alone doesn't make it for some people, I was simply implying that if the whole reason for BaD being this popular was good writing, a few other 2D style games would be on par in terms of popularity, and they simply aren't. Which makes me arrive to the conclusion that it's something else, not just story.

Subjective, but I think it's a combination of a few things. I haven't played BaDIK in quite a while, but from what I remember the story was simple, not over the top, and didn't hammer down on too many of the more fringe kinks. Basically, the dev found a good sweet spot.

Which kind of corroborates my feeling about those games attracting people with average and popular kinks (basically vanilla). My guess is that realistic 3D models along with vanilla/non-fringe kinks attracts a lot of people, which would make sense. The story being non-fantastical and more grounded to real life might also help, but that's a wild guess on my part.

As for the graphics, my own personal theory is that people that just hate Daz models have more sensitive uncanny valley trigger than most people. Not a criticism at all, it just explains the flat aversion to the style.

I guess the uncanny valley feeling is part of it, but personally, I just think most Daz models are just too normal? I don't know how to explain it, but they just feel boring and plain most of the time. I guess me prefering fantasy stuff doesn't help

 

[Gojii]

Bro literally doing a Big Lebowski "am I the only one around here" thread.

Is this OP?

 

[nulnil]

You're talking out of your ass and still managing to say nothing. My entire original contribution was "different people like different things" and you had a little baby cow because you're dense as a brick.

"boohoo I have nothing to say" - tanstaafl

As I said, twisting things because you're either trolling or trying to get out of the BS you've posted. You could EASILY have quoted the "insult to bricks", you didn't, you quoted a different section then replied to THAT section, that is literally how the quote -> reply works.

So you KNOW you said that, but you're crying because I didn't use the quote feature? You have some really weird fucking obsessions. Try visiting a therapist sometime.

...and again writing drivel and ignoring everything in the section you quoted....

This "point" you've made here is entirely irrelevant to the actual argument. I mistyped, I corrected myself, but whatever gaseous cloud you have for a brain is unable to move on from that.

You are as always more than welcome to ignore facts and reality just as I am as always welcome to call you on it and your BS.
The fact still stands that you are wrong, the only difference is the amount of things you are wrong about keep piling up....

If you're going to act like you know the language, fucking learn it then. I'm not going to repeat myself because you haven't even addressed what I said here last time.

So you're ditching the "I never said unique "

Another strawman. Really, pathetic.

and trying a different approach of "but I explained" except I pointed out that it doesn't need to be unique to stand out and you are still ignoring the context which is you adding your own criteria. So it doesn't matter if it's the full sentence or not, your context is not lost, just wrong.

Besides the fact unique and stand out are synonyms (e.g. this book stands out, this book is unique), you have once again failed to actually read what was said in every way possible.

"This game is the best, surely it must be unique."
"This game is the best, and because the best of something usually stands out in some way, surely it must be unique.
"Surely it must be a unique game then, because usually the best of something at least stands out in some way."

It is NOT that "it must be unique because it stands out" or vice versa, it's because it's the BEST (by several categories) that it would logically be unique or, in other words, stand out.

Nope, I'll stick to YOUR original EXACT words and stand by my reply. You on the other hand are welcome to cry and back pedal as much as you like...

Great! You have admitted you have nothing to say beyond arguing the definition of words. I let you attempt to construct anything with wording out of the way, and you have returned with utterly nothing.

You start by saying HERE'S my so-called "unique criteria" and then proceed to review the game NOT once giving YOUR criteria.
When giving YOUR criteria, you give what you are looking for / want / judge a game on, NOT what you got or in this case think what you got.

Sorry, forgot you lack any kind of critical thinking skills. Then again, do you have to be spoon-fed information every time you're in a conversation?

"unique critera"

• Animation (when present)
• Story
• Gameplay
• Graphics Quality

Do you want to see how many reviews made by OTHER users also use these criteria?

View attachment 4740006

You really need to look into your issue of projecting, reading this thread and your replies to everyone, the only one flaming here is you. Then again this is your habit, lie, distract, twist words but I must admit jumping threads, that's new.

The irony of what you say must be completely fucking lost on you.

Your strawman arguments, lies. Most recently four quotes above.
Your semantic arguments, distractions.
Again your strawman arguments, twisting words.

Regardless, a phrase as old as time, "You started it." You started being a jackass first, and you're getting all pissy because I shot back? Learn to take what you dish out.

Why am I NOT surprised you have trouble separating reality from fiction

I find it pretty funny you took that uber-literally.

Well, I am now. But only in this last page after I lost patience. To be fair though, I've only called him dense, so not much of a flame.

That is still called "being rude" regardless if you think it's a flame or not. And you've also been doing it in almost every single reply in this thread.

Stating facts and pointing out behavior, attitude and lack of ability is NOT flaming. His attitude is malicious, his behavior is to argue in bad faith, misquoting, adding insults and derogatory remarks to try drive the discussion off topic and his lack of ability to do so gives the impression, that it is less that he is a troll and more that he is, as you said dense and I think too incompetent to follow through.

None of that is flaming, it's just stating the obvious.

This is an extra juicy one considering all the shit YOU'VE done.

Bad faith arguments? That's all you've literally done.
Misquoting? Absolutely.
Adding insults and derogatory remarks? You've done far more.

 

[nulnil]

I sure don't so it was funny to see someone thought it's about our precious waifu-sim was insulted by dislike

Fair my shiny ass We didn't engage with him over disliking anything. He was simply told Badik, among others, are popular because different people like different things and his preferences might not represent a vast majority. He couldn't take it. Weird as it is. That is all.

You gonna address that strawman you made or what? Sounds a lot like you can't take that.

 

[morphnet]

"boohoo I have nothing to say" - tanstaafl


So you KNOW you said that, but you're crying because I didn't use the quote feature? You have some really weird fucking obsessions. Try visiting a therapist sometime.


This "point" you've made here is entirely irrelevant to the actual argument. I mistyped, I corrected myself, but whatever gaseous cloud you have for a brain is unable to move on from that.


If you're going to act like you know the language, fucking learn it then. I'm not going to repeat myself because you haven't even addressed what I said here last time.


Another strawman. Really, pathetic.


Besides the fact unique and stand out are synonyms (e.g. this book stands out, this book is unique), you have once again failed to actually read what was said in every way possible.

"This game is the best, surely it must be unique."
"This game is the best, and because the best of something usually stands out in some way, surely it must be unique.
"Surely it must be a unique game then, because usually the best of something at least stands out in some way."

It is NOT that "it must be unique because it stands out" or vice versa, it's because it's the BEST (by several categories) that it would logically be unique or, in other words, stand out.


Great! You have admitted you have nothing to say beyond arguing the definition of words. I let you attempt to construct anything with wording out of the way, and you have returned with utterly nothing.


Sorry, forgot you lack any kind of critical thinking skills. Then again, do you have to be spoon-fed information every time you're in a conversation?

"unique critera"

• Animation (when present)
• Story
• Gameplay
• Graphics Quality

Do you want to see how many reviews made by OTHER users also use these criteria?


The irony of what you say must be completely fucking lost on you.

Your strawman arguments, lies. Most recently four quotes above.
Your semantic arguments, distractions.
Again your strawman arguments, twisting words.

Regardless, a phrase as old as time, "You started it." You started being a jackass first, and you're getting all pissy because I shot back? Learn to take what you dish out.


I find it pretty funny you took that uber-literally.


That is still called "being rude" regardless if you think it's a flame or not. And you've also been doing it in almost every single reply in this thread.


This is an extra juicy one considering all the shit YOU'VE done.

Bad faith arguments? That's all you've literally done.
Misquoting? Absolutely.
Adding insults and derogatory remarks? You've done far more.

Twist, flip flop, insult and whine as much as you like, it's not going to work in derailing or side-tracking the discussion and seeing as how your memory is as bad as your communication skills I'll leave this here.






Now when you feel like acting like an adult and joining in the discussion, feel free to use this to remember what was being discussed.

If however, you wish to continue to insult, whine and try side track / derail the discussion, just know I'll continue to post reminders of the actual discussion, so you will be the only one going down your little rabbit hole.

 

[anne O'nymous]

If you're going to act like you know the language, fucking learn it then.
[...]
Besides the fact unique and stand out are synonyms (e.g. this book stands out, this book is unique), [...]

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-> Something more noticeable than the rest.

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-> Something special, unusual.

Like in "your inability to understand the most basic concepts stand out in this thread, but is alas far to be unique here".

 

[suprisedcrankyface]

but it didn't even occur to me to point out that no dev worth their salt would include making the game and writing the story as part of the same thing, except for as criteria for a finished product.

A good writer can storyboard out their story, which in turn streamlines what you needed to draw/animate as you have it all sorted. Dune 2 cost as much as SW acolyte to make, but one wrote it clearly and knew exactly what they wanted to animate etc so everything was done once and done well.

Reason I put that in the 'writing' skill rather than making the game/dev aspect is because you need a story in order to storyboard, and it in turn makes making the game far easier.

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-> Something more noticeable than the rest.

What stands out is that this thread seems to have turned into an argument about arguing

 

[anne O'nymous]

A good writer can storyboard out their story, which in turn streamlines what you needed to draw/animate as you have it all sorted.

A bad writer can do this too, as movies, TV series, and also none adult games, regularly show us. A good writer is more likely to do it, but it's not what make him good, nor what will make his game better, more interesting, or visually more good looking.

Yet, when I say that a good writer is more likely to do it, it's not really the truth. When you hear actually good book writers talk about their writing process, most goes with the flow, not knowing themselves what will come next. The story slowly grown in their mind for months/years, and they are now discovering it while typing it.
What imply that it's not good writers who are the most likely to use a storyboard, but good game creators. They would then write their story from starts to stop, and once done, starts to turn it into a game, splitting it by scenes, then by sequences. But, while it's the way it should be done, it's also not a way that works well with the indie economic model; at least not the one that apply to the adult gaming scene.
It can works for your first game, yet only if you're willing to dedicate all your free time to working on a game that will not starts to become a reality before one year or two. But it can't works for your second and following games, because of the implied gap between each of them. The adult gaming scene is too volatile, the success and (obviously relative) fame you build with your first game will totally fade away the time you're ready to publish the next one.

This lead adult games creators to shorten the process, working with a rough draft of their story, and writing it in the same time they build the game itself. And, obviously, this prevent them to have an effective storyboard. All they can have, at most, is a suit of main events, something that can't even be named "suit of scenes", because while actually writing the event they often discover scenes that were still hidden to them.

Dune 2 cost as much as SW acolyte to make, but one wrote it clearly and knew exactly what they wanted to animate etc so everything was done once and done well.

What is, without bad intent behind the use of the words, an autistic approach.

Even with a perfectly detailed storyboard, there's always a difference between what you planed and what you get. A sequence can be perfect in your mind, look absolutely fit in the storyboard, then be totally flat once done, or send vibes that do not match the rest of the scene.
Only an autistic approach, therefore one that would fully focus on the scene, doing a total abstraction of everything else, can achieve, through the implied compulsive need for perfection, to have it right at storyboard level. But it's not how human mind works and, whatever how good would be the result, how strong would be its impact, it lead to a master piece that is missing a soul.
Every single image will be perfect, spectators/players will be amazed by this perfection, but they'll not know what they watched/played. They'll say that it was marvelous, but also that they understood nothing. It's the difference between 2001, a space odyssey, and Apocalypse Now. A piece of art that leave you confused, versus something that looks a bit more rough, but leave you thinking.

 

[suprisedcrankyface]

A bad writer can do this too, as movies, TV series, and also none adult games, regularly show us. A good writer is more likely to do it, but it's not what make him good, nor what will make his game better, more interesting, or visually more good looking.

Yes but those Authors who run that way still have particular scenes or 'flash points' in mind to work towards in an overarching story. George Lucas first imagined Obi wan fighting Anikan in lava waaay back at the start. Now the prequels were not really 'good' movies, but the overarching vision of the writer carried through.

So Storyboard may not be mapped and totally drawn, it may be in someones mind, but find me a good author who has no idea where their characters are going in the next book...

What is, without bad intent behind the use of the words, an autistic approach.

Far from it - there are many movies that do not take that approach, and work but that doesn't mean that its a bad idea, some people drive without a seat-belt and get on fine, doesn't mean they got there BECAUSE they didn't have seat-belt.

basically the bigger the project the more you should storyboard (and like I said, this may just be imagining things but getting where the story is headed clear in your mind). There is nuance & exceptions in all things, but you WILL have to work that stuff out eventually, hand waving it away is what leads to terrible scenes, because you kicked the can down the road without an answer hoping one would come to you. Sometimes it does (gladiator springs to mind as a movie flying by the seat of its pants), but that's more the skill of the actors and director overcoming the shortfalls of the planning phase.

Sticking blindly to a plan is the autistic approach, planning and then adapting that plan to circumstances is common sense. Having NO plan is madness.

EDIT: take LOTR - story-boarded and planned, but when a set washes away or something changes, they adapted. Two sayings spring to mind
-failure to plan is planning to fail
-no plan survives contact with the enemy

 

[anne O'nymous]

Yes but those Authors who run that way still have particular scenes or 'flash points' in mind to work towards in an overarching story.

And bad writers have them too. Probably in lesser quantity, but they have them.

So Storyboard may not be mapped and totally drawn, it may be in someones mind, but find me a good author who has no idea where their characters are going in the next book...

Well, Stephen King once said that he started The Dark Tower series because he had that image of a big tower that seem to be the focus of everything, that was obsessing him. It's all he knew when he started, and it's only when writing the (from memory) fourth book that he finally understood what that tower was and why the gunslinger wanted to reach it. And he's far to be the only one.

Far from it - there are many movies that do not take that approach, and work but that doesn't mean that its a bad idea, some people drive without a seat-belt and get on fine, doesn't mean they got there BECAUSE they didn't have seat-belt.

There's way less movies that strictly stick to the storyboard, than you seem to think, same for the games. The storyboard is a guide, not a bible, it tell you what the sequence should looks like, not how it must be.

basically the bigger the project the more you should storyboard (and like I said, this may just be imagining things but getting where the story is headed clear in your mind).

But, as I implied, this will not make you a good writer, just a good game creator.

Whatever how far you'll plan your game, if you're a bad writer, it will just be a coherent bad story. Your characters will not change clothes ten time a day, they'll not talk about thing that didn't happened, nor make plans that they'll forgot, but it will be nothing else than a cheap series Z with a story deprived of all interest and dialogs that would make Twilight looks like a like a Noble Prize in Literature.

Sticking blindly to a plan is the autistic approach, planning and then adapting that plan to circumstances is common sense. Having NO plan is madness.

I totally agree with this, but it's not what differentiate good and bad writers. Bad writers are the more likely to follow the "no plan" madness, but it's not what make them bad, it just what make their game even more bad.

 

[researchpurposes]

Agreed, those games suck and the people who like them are unsophisticated idiots.

 

[suprisedcrankyface]

Well, Stephen King once said that he started The Dark Tower series because he had that image of a big tower that seem to be the focus of everything, that was obsessing him. It's all he knew when he started, and it's only when writing the (from memory) fourth book that he finally understood what that tower was and why the gunslinger wanted to reach it. And he's far to be the only one.

If you read 'on writing' by Stephen king he also explains his writing technique involved doing so much coke that he was typing with tissues jammed up his nose to stop the nosebleeds getting on the paper.

There's way less movies that strictly stick to the storyboard, than you seem to think, same for the games. The storyboard is a guide, not a bible, it tell you what the sequence should looks like, not how it must be.

Like I said and we agree on - sticking blindly to a plan is bad, planning and then adapting that plan to circumstances is common sense. Having no plan I still believe is madness. But I am also not going to disagree that there are mad geniuses.

I totally agree with this, but it's not what differentiate good and bad writers. Bad writers are the more likely to follow the "no plan" madness, but it's not what make them bad, it just what make their game even more bad.

To use your earlier example of apocalypse now - watch a documentary on the making off and you will see that everyone hated being involved, the process sucked, and they got lucky to get a movie out of it. I don't think it separates 'good and bad' writers, the point I was trying to make was because of a hierarchy

The hierarchy in terms of skill required would be; full text game -> text with images -> text with images and a few animations -> the rest.

And I was saying a good writer can impact the development of a game & shouldn't be at the bottom, because writing is what separates a game from a visual artist (and underpins a good game).

Story boarding was an example (of that impact) I used but think we got a little fixated on it

 

[GridBasedDefence]

wish they had a unique tag so i could ignore them.

 

[nulnil]

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-> Something more noticeable than the rest.

You must be registered to see the links

-> Something special, unusual.

Like in "your inability to understand the most basic concepts stand out in this thread, but is alas far to be unique here".

On the very same page of "Stand out" in the cambridge dictionary page you linked:

"To be much better than other similar things or people."

It would be

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for one thing to be much better than other similar things, in comparison to those other things in question.

Your inability to read I'm afraid, isn't unique, unusual, nor does it stand out in this thread.

Twist, flip flop, insult and whine as much as you like, it's not going to work in derailing or side-tracking the discussion and seeing as how your memory is as bad as your communication skills I'll leave this here.


Now when you feel like acting like an adult and joining in the discussion, feel free to use this to remember what was being discussed.

If however, you wish to continue to insult, whine and try side track / derail the discussion, just know I'll continue to post reminders of the actual discussion, so you will be the only one going down your little rabbit hole.

"Erm, I've strawmanned you and you aren't responding to those strawmen!!!!"

 

[morphnet]

"Erm, I've strawmanned you and you aren't responding to those strawmen!!!!"

replies across multiple pages = not responding

But as I said,

If however, you wish to continue to insult, whine and try side track / derail the discussion, just know I'll continue to post reminders of the actual discussion, so you will be the only one going down your little rabbit hole.

 

[Count Morado]

wish they had a unique tag so i could ignore them.

3dcg