VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.10.1] [DrPinkCake]

[J.A.L.]

No, I don't enjoy Tybalt as he is in the game, I think he's a buffoon.

One of the hallmark's of a badly written story is the one dimensional, stereotypical antagonist. BaDIK really falls down on this one. Maya's Father, Tybalt, The Alpha's, and to a lesser extent Stephen Burke are all caricatures, not characters.

It´s OK to use archetypes. All writers use them from Homer to our days. But DPC usually uses stereotypes and clichés in characters and situations. And those are different things.

 

[DavDR]

It´s OK to use archetypes. All writers use them from Homer to our days. But DPC usually uses stereotypes and clichés in characters and situations. And those are different things.

It's one thing to start with archetypes and build a character from there, in fact one of my favorite novels used Jungian archetypes, but the author built upon that base and thereby created some very memorable characters.

DPC's villains are one trick ponys, while his other characters are more fully drawn. It's obvious he CAN create characters, he just doesn't always do it and I think that's one of the biggest weaknesses in his writing.

 

[Casiope]

According to the [official] walkthrough, the Others option is only available if you aren't in Josy's and Maya's relationship and don't have a successful relationship with Jill.

The official walkthrough is not very informative about the requirements to display the "Others" option. For instance, it does not appear if you have a relationship with Isabella and Jill only, your affinity also matters a lot. So I recommend you to take a look at the table in BHell's post on this subject.

 

[goldenrule91]

I know you're eager for a Quinn route,

but as the whole broccoli conversation points out Quinn is not offering a relationship right now. Hence Quinn is part of the Others branch. I wouldn't read more into it than that. There are still a bunch of variables that could matter within the branches. The Maya/Josy path had a lot of forked lewd scenes, for example. Likewise people who chose to be friends but still have feelings for Maya or Josy individually could be lumped in with Others as well if they don't pick a different LI. Quinn still has her own extensive set of variables, too.

It seems all but certain we're going to have to confirm our choice at some point in the future, and that would be a logical time for new paths to emerge. If Quinn is going to get a happy ending, that's when I would expect to see it start to take shape.

Just be patient and keep the faith until then. Maybe have some vegetables in the meantime, I hear they can be healthy for you.

Thanks for trying to allay my fears bro I'm just struggling to figure out the exact scope of the Others path if literally every girl on it is optional. On the one hand if you're pursuing Quinn and Lily and Nicole or are interested in Zoey etc. the Others path has the potential to be the GOAT path. On the other hand if you're not pursuing any of the girls, it can potentially be the Incel path That amount of variability is not cohesive to a narrative. Of course as a Quinn simp I'll stick around for any crumb of content and I'm happy about her unique variables but I think it's pretty unlikely any new paths will emerge, officially or unofficially. I think this is it and things are locked as is. Which means any kind of Broccoli Path would be purely picking around the edges of whatever the 'main' content of the Others path would be, which I can't even guess at.

The official walkthrough is not very informative about the requirements to display the "Others" option. For instance, it does not appear if you have a relationship with Isabella and Jill only, your affinity also matters a lot. So I recommend you to take a look at the table in BHell's post on this subject.

Thanks I totally missed that because I took a break while the site was malfunctioning. But I'm slightly hesitant to go against what the official walkthrough says about path requirements, even if the game itself has different requirements, because DPC writes the walkthrough after the episode and the game could be bugged and mistakenly show a path that players haven't qualified for. I'm saying all this without doing any testing for myself though so I'll check all the info before I wreck myself

 

[felicemastronzo]

It's absolutely a high end prostitution ring. It's coming, count on it. Because, if the money for the scholarships was just missing completely, that WOULD get noticed, and pretty quick. But having the quid-pro-quo aspect of rich donors paying for the girls, that could be kept secret for a lot longer. I mean, hey, the money is all above board, right, so all the nefarious stuff is easy to keep quiet.

if Burke simply diverts the scholarship from students who are actually deserving, to those who are deserving because of "extracurricular commitments," in the end the money isn't missing anywhere and it's also pretty hard to come up short.

it depends a lot on the criteria established for these scholarships and the control that there is on the allocation, if Burke takes care of everything who should notice?

what does it matter to donors that the scholarship goes to Camilla and not KRJ?

 

[11bjorn11]

Can someone tell me the acquirements for the 2d art from Jacob? I tried all paths but i'm not able to unlock them all

 

[felicemastronzo]

I think that DPC really messed up with Tybalt. If he had written him as a serious rival for Jill's affections, and as someone that the MC could take seriously as a rival, it would have been a much better story.

And before the conversation is smothered in hysterical cries of NTR, having Tybalt as a serious romantic threat does not necessarily mean that he has to BE a serious threat, Jill could still look at him as only a friend. But a serious Tybalt would be a much more flexible tool for an author to craft a story without ridiculous contrivances like the blackmail storyline. A few corny watermelon jokes are a high price to pay for burning such a useful character.

It was enough that Jill basically continued to believe him (obeying blackmail without believing in the threat is worse than believing in it), that she found Bella's intervention excessive, that she did not laugh at his dental impairment... that she did not humiliate him at his declaration of love

 

[Heycock]

Let's talk about sterotypes. As long as it's a common place to question a literary work for having sterotypes... the true is its used all the time in different types of narrative, and succesfully. Just think in the Simpsons. Pretty much every character it's a sterotype, Homer and Marge are sterotypes of american working class, Burns it's a sterotype of businesman class, Lisa is a sterotype of left wing, Joe Quimby of politicians and the chieff Wiggum of police. And i am not even starting with national stereotypes. Still the most succesfull tv show off all time.

But even further, by XIX Flaubert wrote Madame Bovary, wich later become "the first modern novel", a classic beetween classics. On it, Flaubert put a character, the pharmacist Monsieur Homais, a upstart burgoise, deceptive and ambitious. As such the character was never meant to be a genuely character but rather the description of an entire subgroup of people, a whole social class, as such, a sterotype. It wasn't the first time that sterotype was sued as long as it was a common concern in France at the XIX's. Stendhal, Balzac or Maupassant, all of them used the same stereotypes.

But let's go even further. Let's talk about the Iliad of Homer. On it a character is presented, Tersites. he is the only character who has no aristocratic routes, he is a plebeyan. He is the only character ugly, gummy, vulgar and stupid. As it was, an aristocratic poem about nobles made to entartain nobles, the Iliad build represent the lower class by making sterotypes of them. 2.800 years later noone complains.

So, what's the issue?. Well sterotypes are used to make comedy and specially social satire. As long as they are not a representation of a real individuals but a group of people, they allow to represent social conflicts and make social criticism.

And that's exactly what Badik does. Comedy and social satire. It does with the jocs, and the preps. Jocs are not all stupid, rich people are not all... ok, let's pretend they are not... not all of them are as shitty as Tybalt. Yet it doesn't matter couse it' social criticism, if the story want to have complex real people willuse characters as Quinn, Maya, etc. At different momments will use characters as a description of a social group in order to question an entire group practice or practice: bulliers, classism and homophobia.

So, if it's cool, why people complain?
Have you ever heard them complaining about the feminists?
Couse that's another sterotype used all the time and they are perfectely fine with that.

 

[Casiope]

Can someone tell me the acquirements for the 2d art from Jacob? I tried all paths but i'm not able to unlock them all

You need to have sex with Cathy in episode 5.

 

[Deleted member 4298851]

Let's talk about sterotypes. As long as it's a common place to question a literary work for having sterotypes... the true is its used all the time in different types of narrative, and succesfully. Just think in the Simpsons. Pretty much every character it's a sterotype, Homer and Marge are sterotypes of american working class, Burns it's a sterotype of businesman class, Lisa is a sterotype of left wing, Joe Quimby of politicians and the chieff Wiggum of police. And i am not even starting with national stereotypes. Still the most succesfull tv show off all time.

But even further, by XIX Flaubert wrote Madame Bovary, wich later become "the first modern novel", a classic beetween classics. On it, Flaubert put a character, the pharmacist Monsieur Homais, a upstart burgoise, deceptive and ambitious. As such the character was never meant to be a genuely character but rather the description of an entire subgroup of people, a whole social class, as such, a sterotype. It wasn't the first time that sterotype was sued as long as it was a common concern in France at the XIX's. Stendhal, Balzac or Maupassant, all of them used the same stereotypes.

But let's go even further. Let's talk about the Iliad of Homer. On it a character is presented, Tersites. he is the only character who has no aristocratic routes, he is a plebeyan. He is the only character ugly, gummy, vulgar and stupid. As it was, an aristocratic poem about nobles made to entartain nobles, the Iliad build represent the lower class by making sterotypes of them. 2.800 years later noone complains.

So, what's the issue?. Well sterotypes are used to make comedy and specially social satire. As long as they are not a representation of a real individuals but a group of people, they allow to represent social conflicts and make social criticism.

And that's exactly what Badik does. Comedy and social satire. It does with the jocs, and the preps. Jocs are not all stupid, rich people are not all... ok, let's pretend they are not... not all of them are as shitty as Tybalt. Yet it doesn't matter couse it' social criticism, if the story want to have complex real people willuse characters as Quinn, Maya, etc. At different momments will use characters as a description of a social group in order to question an entire group practice or practice: bulliers, classism and homophobia.

So, if it's cool, why people complain?
Have you ever heard them complaining about the feminists?
Couse that's another sterotype used all the time and they are perfectely fine with that.

This is a well thought out and written post. I haven't read Madame Bovary in years, although I'm pretty sure I have a copy around here somewhere on one of my bookshelves.

This is a hell of a post, with pretty good comparisons to boot, accurate too.

 

[J.A.L.]

This is a well thought out and written post. I haven't read Madame Bovary in years, although I'm pretty sure I have a copy around here somewhere on one of my bookshelves.

This is a hell of a post, with pretty good comparisons to boot, accurate too.

Don´t make the mistake of confusing archetypes with stereotypes, and worst of it, clichés. And don´t make the mistake of confusing wordiness with real knowledge. It only confuses fools.

 

[Deleted member 4298851]

Don´t make the mistake of confusing archetypes with stereotypes, and worst of it, clichés. And don´t make the mistake of confusing wordiness with real knowledge. It only confuses fools.

I get that, but still, using those references seemed like a good comparison to me, but I do get where you're coming from

 

[felicemastronzo]

Let's talk about sterotypes. As long as it's a common place to question a literary work for having sterotypes... the true is its used all the time in different types of narrative, and succesfully. Just think in the Simpsons. Pretty much every character it's a sterotype, Homer and Marge are sterotypes of american working class, Burns it's a sterotype of businesman class, Lisa is a sterotype of left wing, Joe Quimby of politicians and the chieff Wiggum of police. And i am not even starting with national stereotypes. Still the most succesfull tv show off all time.

But even further, by XIX Flaubert wrote Madame Bovary, wich later become "the first modern novel", a classic beetween classics. On it, Flaubert put a character, the pharmacist Monsieur Homais, a upstart burgoise, deceptive and ambitious. As such the character was never meant to be a genuely character but rather the description of an entire subgroup of people, a whole social class, as such, a sterotype. It wasn't the first time that sterotype was sued as long as it was a common concern in France at the XIX's. Stendhal, Balzac or Maupassant, all of them used the same stereotypes.

But let's go even further. Let's talk about the Iliad of Homer. On it a character is presented, Tersites. he is the only character who has no aristocratic routes, he is a plebeyan. He is the only character ugly, gummy, vulgar and stupid. As it was, an aristocratic poem about nobles made to entartain nobles, the Iliad build represent the lower class by making sterotypes of them. 2.800 years later noone complains.

So, what's the issue?. Well sterotypes are used to make comedy and specially social satire. As long as they are not a representation of a real individuals but a group of people, they allow to represent social conflicts and make social criticism.

And that's exactly what Badik does. Comedy and social satire. It does with the jocs, and the preps. Jocs are not all stupid, rich people are not all... ok, let's pretend they are not... not all of them are as shitty as Tybalt. Yet it doesn't matter couse it' social criticism, if the story want to have complex real people willuse characters as Quinn, Maya, etc. At different momments will use characters as a description of a social group in order to question an entire group practice or practice: bulliers, classism and homophobia.

So, if it's cool, why people complain?
Have you ever heard them complaining about the feminists?
Couse that's another sterotype used all the time and they are perfectely fine with that.

it seems to me a bit of an oversimplification though
would that mean that all fiction is the same? any story, since it is based more or less on the same characters, has the same value?

within stereotypes there are thousands of variations, some so successful that they have become the new stereotypes

the hero has been joined by the anti-hero, the female characters are no longer those of the 80s, the nerds from losers and that's it, they have become geeks, fascinated in their own way, and sometimes they are the undisputed protagonists.

If belonging to a certain role/stereotype already tells you 80% of the character there is something wrong, because it becomes a story that you have already read.

how many BADIk characters escape their stereotype? few, very few, almost none (Nick for example)
but it is not a problem, it's okay, just accept it

 

[J.A.L.]

It's one thing to start with archetypes and build a character from there, in fact one of my favorite novels used Jungian archetypes, but the author built upon that base and thereby created some very memorable characters.

DPC's villains are one trick ponys, while his other characters are more fully drawn. It's obvious he CAN create characters, he just doesn't always do it and I think that's one of the biggest weaknesses in his writing.

Well, Jill is clearly the Jungian archetype of the "maiden", all about ingenuity, purity and chasteness, while Quinn is the "outlaw". She´s a revel living by her own rules, has independent thinking, but usually is selfish and tends to crime. Neil is the "everyman", the voice of the common sense. Derek is the Jester, funny and superficial, but sometimes sees things that others can´t. There is some kind of wisdom into him. Tremolo is a mix between the "lover" and the "hero". He starts mostly like the first one and evolves to the second. All those archetypes can evolve (and are evolving, Quinn for example) during the story.

A stereotype is an oversimplification of an archetype. Tybald is an oversimplification of the "Jester", a comic relieve but without any wisdom. And a cliché, is an idea so repeated by the mainstream that becomes a common place, something worn, predictable and boring. Maya and his evil middle aged white straight religious father, for example.

 

[Heycock]

This is a well thought out and written post. I haven't read Madame Bovary in years, although I'm pretty sure I have a copy around here somewhere on one of my bookshelves.

This is a hell of a post, with pretty good comparisons to boot, accurate too.

Thnks Mark. If you are interested in Madam Bovary, I always recomend a book that the peruvian writer Mario Vargas Llosa wrote about the subject. From that book i took the idea of using Homais as a an example.

 

[Deleted member 4298851]

Thnks Mark. If you are interested in Madam Bovary, I always recomend a book that the peruvian writer Mario Vargas Llosa wrote about the subject. From that book i took the idea of using Homais as a an example.

I'll make a note of it my friend, thanks.

EDIT: Are you talking about "The Perpetual Orgy"? (Don't want to turn this into a off-topic streak, but I'm pretty sure that's what you meant )

 

[Heycock]

it seems to me a bit of an oversimplification though
would that mean that all fiction is the same? any story, since it is based more or less on the same characters, has the same value?

within stereotypes there are thousands of variations, some so successful that they have become the new stereotypes

the hero has been joined by the anti-hero, the female characters are no longer those of the 80s, the nerds from losers and that's it, they have become geeks, fascinated in their own way, and sometimes they are the undisputed protagonists.

If belonging to a certain role/stereotype already tells you 80% of the character there is something wrong, because it becomes a story that you have already read.

how many BADIk characters escape their stereotype? few, very few, almost none (Nick for example)
but it is not a problem, it's okay, just accept it

No, it means fiction is different. You can take Dostoievsky for example, the psicological novel. Raskolnikov its not a stereotype, its a human being. The topic of that novel it's not russian society, its the way human mentality face against their moral sistem. If you want the fight of a man beetween good and evil. As such he is a complex character who doubts, face dilemas, we can track his thoughts.

On the other side you have a similar topic in the hands of Victor Hugo in Les Miserebles. Yet Victor Hugo is concerned with how society deal with that problem, and not how the individuals does. As such characters are just representation of social groupand social moods, or even way of thoughts. That's why Javert kill himself after the hero pardon him. Couse he is a sterotype of the forces of order in humanity to the point he can't even survive contact with a different way of thinking.

You see? Same topic, two completely different novels.

Hero, anti-hero, etc... are archetypes. They are universal and are writen deep inside the general humanity psycology. For example, the hero archetype its fundamental to build our sense of moral, since he is a representation of moral virtues.

Well but for being a sterotype he doesnt tell you everything about the character. Since the character is not an individual but a representation of a social group you can present your views on that group, and crack some jokes out of it. Since representation of groups it's also a complex topic you can work on that for ages. Just think on the Iliad and the Simpsons. Both sterotype low social class, yet both do completely different things with them, since both belong to different eras.

I don't think every character in Badik is a sterotype. Take Maya, she is a feminist but she doesn't share the traits of all her feminist classmates. At some point she is presented as the opossite. Take Chad. He is a jock, yet he is completely different from the rest, he has his own goals, his own agenda, his fears and his own moral dilema.

 

[DevilPants]

I would say it was a great update aside from rejecting Jade, I hope it's only temporary and we'll get back to it soon. After all, everything is interesting as in previous updates.

 

[Xabder]

I would say it was a great update aside from rejecting Jade, I hope it's only temporary and we'll get back to it soon. After all, everything is interesting as in previous updates.

if your affinity is dik you are able to keep jade

 

[JamieSadistic]

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Thanks for trying to allay my fears bro I'm just struggling to figure out the exact scope of the Others path if literally every girl on it is optional. On the one hand if you're pursuing Quinn and Lily and Nicole or are interested in Zoey etc. the Others path has the potential to be the GOAT path. On the other hand if you're not pursuing any of the girls, it can potentially be the Incel path That amount of variability is not cohesive to a narrative. Of course as a Quinn simp I'll stick around for any crumb of content and I'm happy about her unique variables but I think it's pretty unlikely any new paths will emerge, officially or unofficially. I think this is it and things are locked as is. Which means any kind of Broccoli Path would be purely picking around the edg........