VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.10.1] [DrPinkCake]

[mindern]

You're right, you're not the MC, so what you personally feel and like about them in your personal feelings is completely irrelevent. You are playing a pre-defined character with pre-defined traits (somewhat..with some loose choices on your part). So therefore, your opinion of the girls is not at all important, you're playing this from the MC's pov. So from that pov, his reaction is completely unjustified. One girl he known all summer, but finally asked out mere days before leaving (who tells him she is in a relationship, a fact he can completely ignore and not give a crap about) and one girl he has known a matter of days who bends the truth with her relationship (but does still state she is in one, as vaguely as DPC writes her).

No one specifically lies, a little fib by Maya perhaps (for her own protection I might add)...but both girls tell you they are in a relationship, and the MC (YOU) don't give 2 craps. So, his reaction is to literally fly off the handle over 'lies' from two women he barely knows, one he sleeps with despite knowing she is in a relationship, one he has known mere days. Lies by ommission perhaps? Sorry but that sounds seriously mentally unstable in my book. That...or as has already been made mention of numerous times, it's just bad writing. Just like being 'faithful' to them both, not doing anything else with anyone, no dates, no swipe chatting, no teachers etc etc....yet being 'forced by DPC' to confront the girls saying 'I'm still dating' when 'my MC' isn't. Now all that being said, I can see him being seriously peeved that Josy and Maya are the two involved...yeah bit of a blindside...but still doesn't justify or warrant that reaction.

Btw, he has known Maya 10 days btw....want to correct me then fine (HB already did)...but he has known Josy for two months, the entire summer in fact. We only get their interaction on the last few days before he leaves for college.

It would seem to me you have more of an issue with the writing when you sit back and think about it rather than the actual actions of the girls. You state 'They obliquely reference'..yes...they also do the same of their relationship being virtually over also...Josy is about to disappear into the blue yonder and Maya wonders if it's time to break up with her....

Known of Josy all summer but by her own admission in Ep5 when you take her back to her dorm they never really spoke.

She comments how she saw him out the corner of her eye watching her, but she mentions how they never really spoke. He knew Josy all summer in the sense he knew she existed but they we’re not close in the slightest.

Whether the writing is bad or not, it’s still canon. It being bad writing doesn’t make it any less the actual story. You can’t fill in gaps made by what you perceive as shitty writing with head canon and tell me I’m wrong for not jumping on board your fanfic version of this story.

What you consider bad writing and out of character behaviour is still just the story. You like them, good for you. I like them too as friends for the MC. But you can’t tell me my opinion is irrevelant on the girls and to “play the game from the MC’s perspective” whilst spouting all this about him being “mentally unstable” or just bad writing because the MC didn’t follow your exact train of thought. You chose not to fuck all these other girls, you chose to be faithful to Maya/Josy but the MC didn’t have that motivation. You are giving him that motivation from your mind. Failing to fuck other girls because you want to be faithful doesn’t make him loyal to Maya. The characters faithfulness isn’t a process of elimination. Not fucking sage doesn’t make him like Maya more. You are putting motivation to the story the mc doesn’t have. He isn’t faithful to Maya so it isn’t bad writing. It’s just your personal motivations being layered over a story that shouldn’t have them and making personal plot holes. If I name my MC Qui-gon Jinn and make all the choices like a Jedi would it isnt bad writing when the MC doesn’t have a fucking lightsaber. Just like it isn’t a plot hole the MC still is angry with Maya because you made choices that only involve fucking her.

You’re not the MC. His motivations are not yours. He reacted badly to the lies but just because he didn’t react how you would doesn’t make it bad writing. You’re not the benchmark for human behaviour.

 

[Darkdevil66]

And I don't disagree with you, but the reason we won't see her having sex with anyone else I think is that one. To her sex is just sex. She doesn't have to be attracted to Tommy, but I find it weird she's not having sex with anyone besides the MC, that's my point. I could be wrong, but we will know more when we see more of her dealers this next episode, but I doubt it because the reason I mentioned earlier.

Well, her and Riona seem to have a kind of erotic complicity, considering they have no problem kissing and performing oral sex to each other

I guess it would have been redundant if most HOTs acted like Arieth and slept with anything. We don't see Sarah and Melanie having sex with anyone besides the MC either.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

So, based on some conversations that have been happening here recently, I've been thinking that, for as good and in many ways excellent as this game can be, the different perceptions of players with regards to the story events and characters is something that I feel can be a bit of an issue.

I'll admit that this could be seen as a minor niggle as it only really applies to when the game is being discussed with others, such as in this thread, but when you think about other forms of media - films, TV shows, books, etc - they are telling a story that is a fixed story, as in it has a clearly defined beginning, middle, and end, and the sequence of events in these stories, as well as all the character actions and traits, are therefore fixed and predetermined by the author/creator. So when it comes to discussing these things with other people, you're discussing the events and characters as they have been portrayed in this fixed story and so your interepretations and analyses of the characters are based on seeing the same series of events play out in the exact same way. This game is very different to that.

Whilst we can certainly debate and discuss the characters and events with our own interpretations and analyses of them, the problem is that we're often looking at a different set of events and character issues because of the choices we're making and this then informs our different perspectives. This isn't like discussing a movie where you're putting forward your own take on the same events that everyone involved in the conversation saw happen in the exact same way, instead we're usually discussing a different series of events based on our own playthroughs and these inform entirely different views on the events and the character development.

There's a common phrase, "singing from the same hymn sheet", which can mean that a group of people can have the same understanding about something, but we aren't all singing from the same hymn sheet because we understand things differently when it comes to this game based on how we played it and it's what leads many of us to have wildly differing views on the story progression and on character relationships.

In a sense, this gets back to the issue that's been discussed before about how this game forces certain things upon all players even if it contradicts the choices and direction they have taken with the MC. It also doesn't help the overall discussion when looking at a particular character's feelings and motivations because some portion of players won't have seen certain events that inform the opinions of others and so it ends up with two sides discussing vastly different interpretations based on two different experiences of the events in question.

This is what can sometimes make discussion of this game somewhat frustrating and I think perhaps we all need to start approaching these discussions by clearly indicating these are our own perspectives based on how we've played and not assume that we're all seeing and experiencing the same things.

TL;DR - Whether it's a good or bad thing, this game can cause players to have very different perspectives on events and characters based on how they play, so let's not assume we're all seeing the same things and make that clear in our posts.

 

[LordHornism]

Probably the best game I have played on here and the game I have the most fun in outside the porn part

 

[Tserriednich'sNen]

I hate Tommy just cause he has Heather. Give me my Heather route damn it!

I get liking whatever character but you need to be more realistic when it comes to 'routes' and 'endings'.

 

[Malicre]

I get liking whatever character but you need to be more realistic when it comes to 'routes' and 'endings'.

To be fair AL had 22 different endings so there's always a chance.

 

[Tserriednich'sNen]

To be fair AL had 22 different endings so there's always a chance.

Which were mostly just different variations of the same 3-5 characters. Expecting to have an ending with someone like Heather is about as unrealistic as it can get considering everything about her and how faithful she seems to be to Tommy.

 

[lemonfreak]

So, based on some conversations that have been happening here recently, I've been thinking that, for as good and in many ways excellent as this game can be, the different perceptions of players with regards to the story events and characters is something that I feel can be a bit of an issue.

I'll admit that this could be seen as a minor niggle as it only really applies to when the game is being discussed with others, such as in this thread, but when you think about other forms of media - films, TV shows, books, etc - they are telling a story that is a fixed story, as in it has a clearly defined beginning, middle, and end, and the sequence of events in these stories, as well as all the character actions and traits, are therefore fixed and predetermined by the author/creator. So when it comes to discussing these things with other people, you're discussing the events and characters as they have been portrayed in this fixed story and so your interepretations and analyses of the characters are based on seeing the same series of events play out in the exact same way. This game is very different to that.

Whilst we can certainly debate and discuss the characters and events with our own interpretations and analyses of them, the problem is that we're often looking at a different set of events and character issues because of the choices we're making and this then informs our different perspectives. This isn't like discussing a movie where you're putting forward your own take on the same events that everyone involved in the conversation saw happen in the exact same way, instead we're usually discussing a different series of events based on our own playthroughs and these inform entirely different views on the events and the character development.

There's a common phrase, "singing from the same hymn sheet", which can mean that a group of people can have the same understanding about something, but we aren't all singing from the same hymn sheet because we understand things differently when it comes to this game based on how we played it and it's what leads many of us to have wildly differing views on the story progression and on character relationships.

In a sense, this gets back to the issue that's been discussed before about how this game forces certain things upon all players even if it contradicts the choices and direction they have taken with the MC. It also doesn't help the overall discussion when looking at a particular character's feelings and motivations because some portion of players won't have seen certain events that inform the opinions of others and so it ends up with two sides discussing vastly different interpretations based on two different experiences of the events in question.

This is what can sometimes make discussion of this game somewhat frustrating and I think perhaps we all need to start approaching these discussions by clearly indicating these are our own perspectives based on how we've played and not assume that we're all seeing and experiencing the same things.

TL;DR - Whether it's a good or bad thing, this game can cause players to have very different perspectives on events and characters based on how they play, so let's not assume we're all seeing the same things and make that clear in our posts.

Yeah, I just assume everyone is playing multiple routes to see all of the content and forget that some might not bother doing so. As I'm sure you know, playing a 100% Chick route means the Chap3 ending makes complete sense as all the clues were there (although being an LGBT person helps) whereas a lot of people will have been completely blindsided by that.

So yeah, a little empathy goes a long way.

 

[Cndyrvr4lf]

So, based on some conversations that have been happening here recently, I've been thinking that, for as good and in many ways excellent as this game can be, the different perceptions of players with regards to the story events and characters is something that I feel can be a bit of an issue.

I'll admit that this could be seen as a minor niggle as it only really applies to when the game is being discussed with others, such as in this thread, but when you think about other forms of media - films, TV shows, books, etc - they are telling a story that is a fixed story, as in it has a clearly defined beginning, middle, and end, and the sequence of events in these stories, as well as all the character actions and traits, are therefore fixed and predetermined by the author/creator. So when it comes to discussing these things with other people, you're discussing the events and characters as they have been portrayed in this fixed story and so your interepretations and analyses of the characters are based on seeing the same series of events play out in the exact same way. This game is very different to that.

Whilst we can certainly debate and discuss the characters and events with our own interpretations and analyses of them, the problem is that we're often looking at a different set of events and character issues because of the choices we're making and this then informs our different perspectives. This isn't like discussing a movie where you're putting forward your own take on the same events that everyone involved in the conversation saw happen in the exact same way, instead we're usually discussing a different series of events based on our own playthroughs and these inform entirely different views on the events and the character development.

There's a common phrase, "singing from the same hymn sheet", which can mean that a group of people can have the same understanding about something, but we aren't all singing from the same hymn sheet because we understand things differently when it comes to this game based on how we played it and it's what leads many of us to have wildly differing views on the story progression and on character relationships.

In a sense, this gets back to the issue that's been discussed before about how this game forces certain things upon all players even if it contradicts the choices and direction they have taken with the MC. It also doesn't help the overall discussion when looking at a particular character's feelings and motivations because some portion of players won't have seen certain events that inform the opinions of others and so it ends up with two sides discussing vastly different interpretations based on two different experiences of the events in question.

This is what can sometimes make discussion of this game somewhat frustrating and I think perhaps we all need to start approaching these discussions by clearly indicating these are our own perspectives based on how we've played and not assume that we're all seeing and experiencing the same things.

TL;DR - Whether it's a good or bad thing, this game can cause players to have very different perspectives on events and characters based on how they play, so let's not assume we're all seeing the same things and make that clear in our posts.

You also have to remember whether we intend it or not that the reason our perceptions are different is that we have all lived different lives. Someone who was cheated on (in a serious relationship or that was extremely hurt by it) is probably going to view any cheating as more severe then someone who hasn't been. Regardless of how much we try to keep our own personal views out of it, it probably isn't always successful. Just one example....

The other issue I have noticed is that people talk about the LI's and Side Girls according to how they were during their run. Not realizing that there are many routes through the same scene based on past Major choices and Minor Status. Just cause something was happy and go lucky on your route doesn't mean every route is happy go lucky.

 

[mindern]

Ugghh...he hasn't known 'of' her....he has worked with her for 2 months..in the store. He knows her. The dialogue states this.

But even if you choose to not sleep with Josy...backs off Maya, doesn't offer to help her....and he still erupts like he's engaged to them and been dating them for 6+ months when she shows up at Maya's dorm.

Regardless of anything else...I don't see how that reaction/writing can be denfended. Pfff...sorry, this is a great game, but that's laughable given his interactions with them, and time known them. (In my opinion).

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You call that knowing her? Look... this is a pointless discussion. You're not actually reading what I write anyways accusing me of playing the game as myself not as the MC when my entire point has been the MC is a character and our motivations are irrelevant (both yours and mine). The posts are here, clear as day. You're spotty on your recollection of the story and this isn't going to go anywhere.

You think the MC overreacted to the point of absurdity... the MC can admit he did so. I don't think his reaction was beyond the realms of normal human behaviour and the MC can admit he doesn't either. The game can cover all bases so let's just end this fucking charade here ok?

 

[Holy Bacchus]

Yeah, I just assume everyone is playing multiple routes to see all of the content and forget that some might not bother doing so. As I'm sure you know, playing a 100% Chick route means the Chap3 ending makes complete sense as all the clues were there (although being an LGBT person helps) whereas a lot of people will have been completely blindsided by that.

So yeah, a little empathy goes a long way.

I've never done a 100% CHICK route, so I actually don't know. But I get what you're saying because even on a Neutral route you could tell something was coming. In fact, when I got to that scene when Maya and the MC are having the heart-to-heart in her room at the start of ep 3, I had a realisation and actually said to myself, "Oh God, I bet Josy is going to be her girlfriend", and sure enough, I was right.

It didn't make it any easier on me though even when I was expecting it, but I still saw it coming.

You also have to remember whether we intend it or not that the reason our perceptions are different is that we have all lived different lives. Someone who was cheated on (in a serious relationship or that was extremely hurt by it) is probably going to view any cheating as more severe then someone who hasn't been. Regardless of how much we try to keep our own personal views out of it, it probably isn't always successful. Just one example....

The other issue I have noticed is that people talk about the LI's and Side Girls according to how they were during their run. Not realizing that there are many routes through the same scene based on past Major choices and Minor Status. Just cause something was happy and go lucky on your route doesn't mean every route is happy go lucky.

Well, in this regard I'm purely looking at it from the standpoint of how people approach the decisions in the game that give them a particular series of events. I understand that people also have perceptions based on life experience and personal beliefs, but this was me just talking strictly about how the different ways that the series of events in this game can play out can create vastly different perspectives.

 

[Cndyrvr4lf]

I've never done a 100% CHICK route, so I actually don't know. But I get what you're saying because even on a Neutral route you could tell something was coming. In fact, when I got to that scene when Maya and the MC are having the heart-to-heart in her room at the start of ep 3, I had a realisation and actually said to myself, "Oh God, I bet Josy is going to be her girlfriend", and sure enough, I was right.

It didn't make it any easier on me though even when I was expecting it, but I still saw it coming.



Well, in this regard I'm purely looking at it from the standpoint of how people approach the decisions in the game that give them a particular series of events. I understand that people also have perceptions based on life experience and personal beliefs, but this was me just talking strictly about how the different ways that the series of events in this game can play out can create vastly different perspectives.

Isn't that what I said in the 2nd paragraph? If not then I have no clue what you are talking about?

 

[Holy Bacchus]

Isn't that what I said in the 2nd paragraph? If not then I have no clue what you are talking about?

Yeah, I suppose it is. I was mainly focusing on addressing the 1st paragraph and kind of glossed over the 2nd one. Sorry about that.

 

[lemonfreak]

I've never done a 100% CHICK route, so I actually don't know. But I get what you're saying because even on a Neutral route you could tell something was coming. In fact, when I got to that scene when Maya and the MC are having the heart-to-heart in her room at the start of ep 3, I had a realisation and actually said to myself, "Oh God, I bet Josy is going to be her girlfriend", and sure enough, I was right.

It didn't make it any easier on me though even when I was expecting it, but I still saw it coming.

Whereas for me it was maybe the best moment of the game so far, I knew there was something coming but, as I didn't play full Chick the first time around and was on a fairly neutral path with a slight Dik bias, didn't know exactly what it was. Even so, the moment the reveal happened I was really happy because neither of quite clicked until then and suddenly became characters.

 

[Cndyrvr4lf]

Yeah, I suppose it is. I was mainly focusing on addressing the 1st paragraph and kind of glossed over the 2nd one. Sorry about that.

No worries Brotha. I suck at typing so I tend to keep my posts shorter. I do agree with you, add in our own biases as far as girls go and its a miracle we can have a semi civil discussion at all.

 

[Alfagrem]

TL;DR - Whether it's a good or bad thing, this game can cause players to have very different perspectives on events and characters based on how they play, so let's not assume we're all seeing the same things and make that clear in our posts.

That's only true when we are speaking of MC interactions.

EXAMPLE
"MC cares nothing for Josy cos he's been horndoggin it around campus" is not a 100% correct statement as my limited control of the MC means I can avoid anything more then kissing and even then only with the LI's.

EXAMPLE
"Mona stormed out on Stephen at the prep party, Trouble for Quinn?". Now although I may not have seen this on my play through, I accept it's true, that it happened and it's canon because my involvement wasn't necessary for that to happen.


So whilst I could reject any assertation that I've been somehow involved with Jade in that way, if she had theoretically said "Stephen is your uncle" whilst you were in her bathtub then he'd the MC's uncle even if I'm still blissfully unaware of it.

 

[Razrback16]

On the topic of Quinn...

remember what happened when (if) the MC tried to kiss her.

What happens in that scene? I never chose to have MC stay at the HOTs so didn't see that one.

I find it weird she's not having sex with anyone besides the MC

Ya, I find that interesting for sure. In my playthroughs, outside of the friendly text at the end of Episode 5, MC has primarily a bad relationship with her since I reject her restaurant and the weed, lol. To me, it seems pretty obvious though that she has some kind of serious interest in the MC over other dudes on campus based on her behavior. Gonna be fun seeing how things go as MC no doubt will be forced into situations with her moving forward on the topic of the drug dealer stuff.

 

[ename144]

Known of Josy all summer but by her own admission in Ep5 when you take her back to her dorm they never really spoke.

She comments how she saw him out the corner of her eye watching her, but she mentions how they never really spoke. He knew Josy all summer in the sense he knew she existed but they we’re not close in the slightest.

Whether the writing is bad or not, it’s still canon. It being bad writing doesn’t make it any less the actual story. You can’t fill in gaps made by what you perceive as shitty writing with head canon and tell me I’m wrong for not jumping on board your fanfic version of this story.

What you consider bad writing and out of character behaviour is still just the story. You like them, good for you. I like them too as friends for the MC. But you can’t tell me my opinion is irrevelant on the girls and to “play the game from the MC’s perspective” whilst spouting all this about him being “mentally unstable” or just bad writing because the MC didn’t follow your exact train of thought. You chose not to fuck all these other girls, you chose to be faithful to Maya/Josy but the MC didn’t have that motivation. You are giving him that motivation from your mind. Failing to fuck other girls because you want to be faithful doesn’t make him loyal to Maya. The characters faithfulness isn’t a process of elimination. Not fucking sage doesn’t make him like Maya more. You are putting motivation to the story the mc doesn’t have. He isn’t faithful to Maya so it isn’t bad writing. It’s just your personal motivations being layered over a story that shouldn’t have them and making personal plot holes. If I name my MC Qui-gon Jinn and make all the choices like a Jedi would it isnt bad writing when the MC doesn’t have a fucking lightsaber. Just like it isn’t a plot hole the MC still is angry with Maya because you made choices that only involve fucking her.

You’re not the MC. His motivations are not yours. He reacted badly to the lies but just because he didn’t react how you would doesn’t make it bad writing. You’re not the benchmark for human behaviour.

I agree to a point, but I also feel like the choices the MC makes at our behest should have some sort on impact on who he is. Certainly, that's the idea behind the affinity system (arbitrary as the implementation is). Likewise, I do think it's fair to expect other characters to take some notice of the MC's actions, even if those actions will not always be interpreted (or intended) in the way we wish they were.

In general, I think we should give the MC wide latitude and always strive to view his actions in the most favorable light possible. Still, I think it's fair to point out inconsistencies when they get blatant enough. I promised to stop ranting about the "no strings attached" issue, so instead I'll use Bella's Episode 5 lewd scene as n example.

I can accept that the MC is, for whatever reason, somewhat obsessed with Bella. Even if he didn't make a move on her in Episode 4, he still really wants to. Fair enough. But I still say it is a mistake not to tie her Episode 5 lewd scene to the one in Episode 4. Even if we grant that the MC can choose not to push in Episode 4 and still want to do so later, the way the scene in the sauna is staged just makes no sense to me. Bella all but begged the MC to stop in episode 3, and he did. Yet now he's presses her again, and this time when she says no he keeps going. I just don't see a way to square that circle, even if I assume the MC really, really wants Bella.

To me, that's the point at which it's fair to start questioning external issues. IMHO, the scene works very well as a followup to Bella's Episode 4 lewd scene; there, the MC does back off when Bella says no, only for Bella to reverse course and continue the scene herself. It's only when you skip that scene that the problems arise. So yes, I could insist it must be an in character action and try to work out why the MC was willing to back off once but not the second time. But I think it's a more convincing argument to say DPC didn't want to restrict Bella's sauna scene to people who stayed with her in Episode 4, and just forgot to take the consequences of that into account when he wrote the scene.

Obviously, exactly where to draw the line always going to be a judgement call. But that's the cost of doing business when debating a work of art. All we can do is try to state our criteria clearly and be as objective as possible when applying them. Well, that and stay polite when all those uncultured swine do the same right back to us.

 

[otherside155]

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fcking thanks bro, finally i could download some game here with at least half of my connection speed, took only 10 minutes <3

 

[Derek9110]

I can accept that the MC is, for whatever reason, somewhat obsessed with Bella. Even if he didn't make a move on her in Episode 4, he still really wants to. Fair enough. But I still say it is a mistake not to tie her Episode 5 lewd scene to the one in Episode 4. Even if we grant that the MC can choose not to push in Episode 4 and still want to do so later, the way the scene in the sauna is staged just makes no sense to me. Bella all but begged the MC to stop in episode 3, and he did. Yet now he's presses her again, and this time when she says no he keeps going. I just don't see a way to square that circle, even if I assume the MC really, really wants Bella.

Well, Bella is much more adamant about saying no in episode three (and crying to boot). In the following episodes MC learns a bit more about her situation, plus the fact that the yoga scene right before was pretty charged, so I think he makes the leap that she probably doesn't mean the no nearly as strongly in the sauna. Obviously we're still in dubious consent territory (what else is new with adult VNs?) but I think his actions are pretty reasonable in the scenario quoted above.