VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.10.1] [DrPinkCake]

[godkingxerxes]

I also believe that it could be an opportunity to shuffle the cards.

but the choice between Maya and Josy should be the one anticipated to Derek (in the case of friendship route), therefore with a blocked path, while for those in the trouple route there could be more possibilities or only that of reconciliation or abandonment

You'd block off a path based on a throw away conversation with a character not even involved in the relationship.

That's harsh.

Find for me, I said Josy to him and Josy only one of the two I'm interested in. MC gotta finish what he started before he can move on.

 

[felicemastronzo]

There are ways this can all be validated.

• In episode 1 it's established that MC's dad has saved up for his tuition. They make do with many inferior things, but the dad has placed high priority on his son's education and has been putting money away for years. It's an acceptable premise, so like, you know, accept it...
• Now this is my speculation, but it's possible: Maya's dad may or may not have the cash but he didn't offer to give it to Maya and expected her to take out a student loan. Prior to her realizing her dad was going to blackmail her, he assures her it is better that he co-signs in case she can't pay the debt back. He probably does the same thing for Derek, cosigns both their loans, like a good father might. So Maya gets a student *cash* loan (they exist look it up). The dad "assists" but then has the money placed into an account that Maya doesn't have access to, that's where he tricks her. Then he hits her with the ultimatum.
• Maya can't just go and get another loan. She has no earning capacity, she's now already in debt, her father won't cosign the second loan. She's basically fucked.
• Maya could definitely take the case to court and would win hands down, she just has to have the guts to stand up to her father and do it. This is her problem, she's a pushover. Hopefully the MC will help her stand up to this bigot of a father.

So yeah, you can all say how improbable it is etc. but it can be rationalized. If it can be rationalized it is therefore probable. DPC doesn't have to spell out all the legalities, show everyone the loan forms and have the fans get their own lawyers to read over the in-game loan clauses...

So anyone saying this is a plot hole, bad writing etc. is flat out wrong. Of course, if you can prove it is a plot hole, prove it. But don't tell me the funds cannot be used for anything other than the tuition, because people misuse their college loans in real life (and the dad is threatening Maya, he hasn't gone and spent the money). Don't tell me she could just get another loan, because as soon as the new creditor sees she already has a student loan out, they won't help her, she's a liability (unless she goes through some loan shark and everyone will be crying that DPC has just done that to add more drama).

but finding an astral conjunction for which it might make sense, provided a certain number of non-provable hypotheses, solve something?

What if it was all a dream of Lynette in a coma?

it is an extremely and unnecessarily complex point in history

 

[felicemastronzo]

You'd block off a path based on a throw away conversation with a chapter not even involved in the relationship.

That's harsh.

Find for me, I said Josy to him and Josy only one of the two I'm interested in. MC gotta finish what he started before he can move on.

that question from Derek must have been asked for a reason, and it leaves a trace in the game so it must have some consequence

at the time, for me, from a story point of view, it was right lying to Derek, who as Josy's brother is not the person to confess his feelings to.

but the game was built like that

 

[horusxcaen82]

you know since we are on the Maya/Josy discussion again I find it funny after doing the friendship route in my good girl Jill playthrough, that Maya and Josy are still like.. "I still like you though" if real life has taught me anything in my some one decent time on this earth whenever a girl says " still like you " and you are friends, she is just stringing you along, in my case it was a girl in high school who wanted attention from everyone and I pretty much told her to get lost.

 

[shazba]

but finding an astral conjunction for which it might make sense, provided a certain number of non-provable hypotheses, solve something?

What if it was all a dream of Lynette in a coma?

it is an extremely and unnecessarily complex point in history

It wasn't complex at all.

We know the dad cosigned the loan and is withholding the cash. You guys say he can't do that, I show how he can.

And that's it.

It's just you've all got yourselves into a "this is a plot hole/inconsistent/Can't suspend disbelief" frenzy and you no longer are open to accepting any explanation.

 

[horusxcaen82]

but finding an astral conjunction for which it might make sense, provided a certain number of non-provable hypotheses, solve something?

What if it was all a dream of Lynette in a coma?

it is an extremely and unnecessarily complex point in history

wait someone else that thinks like me about these things? so its like those twists where the person dreaming, wakes up to find their love sleeping next to them even though through out the whole season they died?

 

[felicemastronzo]

It wasn't complex at all.

We know the dad cosigned the loan and is withholding the cash. You guys say he can't do that, I show how he can.

And that's it.

It's just you've all got yourselves into a "this is a plot hole/inconsistent/Can't suspend disbelief" frenzy and you no longer are open to accepting any explanation.

the problem is not the double signature, the one in the loan is common, the father signs as guarantor of the loan

the threat makes no sense.
Maya risks missing a year of college and that's it
the father is the guarantor, the problems with the bank are his.
what did he do with the money the bank gave him? he must return them


for me it is not a problem of consistency, but of excessive intricacy, for an aspect that would not be interested in anyone

 

[Holy Bacchus]

It does not matter whether this would possible in the real world, all that matters is that the situation within this story is consistent.

My understanding is that a massive dose of gamma radiation would be fatal but we still have the Incredible Hulk.

I think in the case of something like this, it should probably make a bit more sense than it does. Most AVNs don't try to live in the real world so you can accept a lot of the absurdities that exist within them because you know it's highly unlikely that a guy's sister will suddenly become hot and horny for him after doing some racy poses for his "photography project" and she sees the bulge in his pants. But this game has, I feel, tried to create something of a realistic feel to its world and there are certain aspects that perhaps should be believable, like the loan situation. Even a crazy, off-the-wall, college-comedy slapstick movie wouldn't have something like this because you can't even start college unless your fees are being paid, which means that Maya shouldn't even be there.

In the real world, tuition must be paid by the start of the academic year, but perhaps this world does operate differently and I do think that it warrants an explanation. If either a) tuition is paid on a monthly basis, b) tuition is paid on a semester basis, or c) tuition for the year must be paid before the end of the first month, then this might explain Maya's haste and worry because she'll either be out of college or will have to find some other way to get the money, the latter of which would result in the future debt she's worried about.

On the topic of Maya/Josy, what do you think the chance that they get split up following the confrontation with big daddy?

I think they will, with Josy doing some HOT living and Maya chilling in her room watching movies.

Would give players the choice of paths going forward, Josy path, Maya path, reconciliation path.

Hoping for the Josy path personally, have no real interest in Maya, everytime I come back to the game, she keeps moving further down my list, at this point, rather be the bottom in a Chad/Troy threesome than be with Maya.

No, I don't think they'll split, and I'm not just saying this because I'm a M&J fan. If anything, it could be the start of more stress, frustration, and tension if Josy is forced to essentially hide out in the HOT house so that Maya's Dad doesn't find her in the room with Maya during another unannounced visit.

I'm personally leaning more towards the idea that something will happen that results in Maya entering the room first and allowing for Josy to avoid going in. The Dad being there might seem to suggest an imminent confrontation is looming, with all 3 walking in to the room at the same time, but DPC likes his drama and to have the Dad either not be there when they get back or to keep Josy from entering the room and ultimately delay him finding out and holding off that confrontation for a while seems more like something DPC would do.

 

[horusxcaen82]

the problem is not the double signature, the one in the loan is common, the father signs as guarantor of the loan

the threat makes no sense.
Maya risks missing a year of college and that's it
the father is the guarantor, the problems with the bank are his.
what did he do with the money the bank gave him? he must return them


for me it is not a problem of consistency, but of excessive intricacy, for an aspect that would not be interested in anyone

the Sword of Damocles has to hang over someones head next episode, might as well be Maya.

 

[shazba]

the problem is not the double signature, the one in the loan is common, the father signs as guarantor of the loan

the threat makes no sense.
Maya risks missing a year of college and that's it
the father is the guarantor, the problems with the bank are his.
what did he do with the money the bank gave him? he must return them

for me it is not a problem of consistency, but of excessive intricacy, for an aspect that would not be interested in anyone

As long as repayments of the loan are being made to the financial institution that loaned the money, what makes you think they are going to have a problem? Surely the dad is bluffing, but Maya doesn't know that.

The premise was set, the reader can choose to accept it or question it. By questioning it, you're the one making it intricate. You don't need the intricate details to accept it, but because you are asking for intricate details you are now saying the premise is too intricate.

 

[godkingxerxes]

It wasn't complex at all.

We know the dad cosigned the loan and is withholding the cash. You guys say he can't do that, I show how he can.

And that's it.

It's just you've all got yourselves into a "this is a plot hole/inconsistent/Can't suspend disbelief" frenzy and you no longer are open to accepting any explanation.

One it's a student loan, the money goes to the school first, anything left over goes to the student.

For two let's pretend that Maya got a non student loan for student purposes, the father co signed it, which means he's responsible for the money if Maya doesn't repay it.

In both these examples the father does not get the money, at all.

Though I thought when Maya was doing the tour for MC she didn't get a student loan and her daddy was paying for it out of pocket.

At which point her father keeping his money for himself unless Maya does what he says, makes perfect sense, if she was 12 and not doing her homework therefore no allowance. Doesn't make sense for a grown woman capable of earning her own money.

But then this whole co-signing business gets dropped on us, and well, is what it is I guess, maybe I missed something.

 

[crabsinthekitchen]

One it's a student loan, the money goes to the school first, anything left over goes to the student.

For two let's pretend that Maya got a non student loan for student purposes, the father co signed it, which means he's responsible for the money if Maya doesn't repay it.

In both these examples the father does not get the money, at all.

Though I thought when Maya was doing the tour for MC she didn't get a student loan and her daddy was paying for it out of pocket.

At which point her father keeping his money for himself unless Maya does what he says, makes perfect sense, if she was 12 and not doing her homework therefore no allowance. Doesn't make sense for a grown woman capable of earning her own money.

But then this whole co-signing business gets dropped on us, and well, is what it is I guess, maybe I missed something.

and what if they get a loan that should cover 4 years but only paid for the first semester, and the leftover went to Maya's dad because you cannot trust college kids with money, they'd just spend it all on parties and strippers

 

[felicemastronzo]

As long as repayments of the loan are being made to the financial institution that loaned the money, what makes you think they are going to have a problem? Surely the dad is bluffing, but Maya doesn't know that.

The premise was set, the reader can choose to accept it or question it. By questioning it, you're the one making it intricate. You don't need the intricate details to accept it, but because you are asking for intricate details you are now saying the premise is too intricate.

and no ... it's not like that at all

I'm not the one who worries about the loan, he is DPC who keeps talking about it (through Maya every time she has the opportunity from chapter 1 to chapter 6), if you keep talking about it you make me think about it.

I don't understand the speech you make about the loan ... the student loan is linked to an enrollment, if the father has paid the sum to the BR, and Maya continues to worry she looks silly, if the father is stalling on the enrollment and in the end he does not, he will have to pay the interest anyway and return it to the bank.

 

[felicemastronzo]

and what if they get a loan that should cover 4 years but only paid for the first semester, and the leftover went to Maya's dad because you cannot trust college kids with money, they'd just spend it all on parties and strippers

the money for everyday expenses can be very well, and it is not even said to be included in the loan

but those for enrollment all go to college, why should the bank advance them if you don't pay them?

 

[shazba]

One it's a student loan, the money goes to the school first, anything left over goes to the student.

For two let's pretend that Maya got a non student loan for student purposes, the father co signed it, which means he's responsible for the money if Maya doesn't repay it.

In both these examples the father does not get the money, at all.

Though I thought when Maya was doing the tour for MC she didn't get a student loan and her daddy was paying for it out of pocket.

At which point her father keeping his money for himself unless Maya does what he says, makes perfect sense, if she was 12 and not doing her homework therefore no allowance. Doesn't make sense for a grown woman capable of earning her own money.

But then this whole co-signing business gets dropped on us, and well, is what it is I guess, maybe I missed something.

When this topic first came up ages ago I thought exactly what you are saying. That the loan is made out to the college. I googled it to confirm and lo and behold that does not have to be the case. Check this article out:

You must be registered to see the links

So therefore your first point does not undermine the stories premise.

When the father helped Maya get the loan out, Maya wasn't expecting him to double cross her, he could have filled out forms for her as well (I know my father helped my sister out with paperwork when she got a loan for her car - lucky she's not a lesbian)

So therefore a scenario exists where the father could have underhandedly obtain the funds.

Maya should go get a job, become independent and tell her dad to get fucked, she'd just have to differ college for one year and he'd still have to pat off the loan anyway. But this relies on Maya standing up for herself against a man who has possibly been controlling her entire life.

and no ... it's not like that at all

I'm not the one who worries about the loan, he is DPC who keeps talking about it (through Maya every time she has the opportunity from chapter 1 to chapter 6), if you keep talking about it you make me think about it.

I don't understand the speech you make about the loan ... the student loan is linked to an enrollment, if the father has paid the sum to the BR, and Maya continues to worry she looks silly, if the father is stalling on the enrollment and in the end he does not, he will have to pay the interest anyway and return it to the bank.

I imagine the tuition hasn't been paid yet. We know that Mona's scholarship payment was "pending" so maybe full payments aren't due yet. Or maybe he's paid the first semester and is threatening to withhold the rest. And yes, if he doesn't pay the tuition by the due date, he still has to repay the loan, and Maya doesn't get to go to college. That's the entire blackmail, you don't do what I say, you don't get to go to college. The father is obviously hoping Maya will just do what he says and eventually he has to decide to halt Maya's education, or give in to her. He hasn't reached that crossroad yet.

The thing is, for your stance to be acceptable, you need to dispute any possibility of this scenario eventuating at all. For me to argue that it is a legitimate scenario (as the game presents), I only need to come up with one legitimate example, which I have.

 

[GingerSweetGirl]

Then we'll have to agree to disagree because I could not care less if an actual college loan doesn't work the way DPC describes it in his fictional setting, only that it isn't so glaringly inconsistent within its' own story that it breaks immersion.

There are ways this can all be validated.

• In episode 1 it's established that MC's dad has saved up for his tuition. They make do with many inferior things, but the dad has placed high priority on his son's education and has been putting money away for years. It's an acceptable premise, so like, you know, accept it...
• Now this is my speculation, but it's possible: Maya's dad may or may not have the cash but he didn't offer to give it to Maya and expected her to take out a student loan. Prior to her realizing her dad was going to blackmail her, he assures her it is better that he co-signs in case she can't pay the debt back. He probably does the same thing for Derek, cosigns both their loans, like a good father might. So Maya gets a student *cash* loan (they exist look it up). The dad "assists" but then has the money placed into an account that Maya doesn't have access to, that's where he tricks her. Then he hits her with the ultimatum.
• Maya can't just go and get another loan. She has no earning capacity, she's now already in debt, her father won't cosign the second loan. She's basically fucked.
• Maya could definitely take the case to court and would win hands down, she just has to have the guts to stand up to her father and do it. This is her problem, she's a pushover. Hopefully the MC will help her stand up to this bigot of a father.

So yeah, you can all say how improbable it is etc. but it can be rationalized. If it can be rationalized it is therefore probable. DPC doesn't have to spell out all the legalities, show everyone the loan forms and have the fans get their own lawyers to read over the in-game loan clauses...

So anyone saying this is a plot hole, bad writing etc. is flat out wrong. Of course, if you can prove it is a plot hole, prove it. But don't tell me the funds cannot be used for anything other than the tuition, because people misuse their college loans in real life (and the dad is threatening Maya, he hasn't gone and spent the money). Don't tell me she could just get another loan, because as soon as the new creditor sees she already has a student loan out, they won't help her, she's a liability (unless she goes through some loan shark and everyone will be crying that DPC has just done that to add more drama).

I want to be clear that, while I think the story element is fundamentally flawed, I don't think it is fatally flawed. I enjoy discussions about story structure and narrative analysis, and by that standard the student loan element leaves me wanting. It hurts Maya's story because it allows for other characters to have more compelling narratives. Maya is a good character, but DPC mishandled her story and I think he could have done better. But that said, it's a technical issue that I don't think 90% of players will ever really consider. If you were to say, "hhmmm...yeah I see your point but it doesn't really bother me", I don't think that would be an unfair response. Sometimes you just need to roll with things, and learn a lesson for the future.

As for plot holes specifically, I would not call it a plot hole. My understanding of a plot hole would be something super significant and glaring. It would need to be something like Maya claiming that she can't afford the loans if her dad pulls her support, and then a few episodes later saying that she may lose her scholarships because she's failing a class. That would be something to really come down on DPC harder over. The nature of the relationship between her father and the student loans is more of a minor annoyance that we can pick at because we're all locked down because of COVID and have nothing better to do.

 

[horusxcaen82]

I see the MC giving Maya the 5k at the end of the day.

 

[felicemastronzo]

When this topic first came up ages ago I thought exactly what you are saying. That the loan is made out to the college. I googled it to confirm and lo and behold that does not have to be the case. Check this article out:

You must be registered to see the links

So therefore your first point does not undermine the stories premise.

When the father helped Maya get the loan out, Maya wasn't expecting him to double cross her, he could have filled out forms for her as well (I know my father helped my sister out with paperwork when she got a loan for her car - lucky she's not a lesbian)

So therefore a scenario exists where the father could have underhandedly obtain the funds.

Maya should go get a job, become independent and tell her dad to get fucked, she'd just have to differ college for one year and he'd still have to pat off the loan anyway. But this relies on Maya standing up for herself against a man who has possibly been controlling her entire life.


I imagine the tuition hasn't been paid yet. We know that Mona's scholarship payment was "pending" so maybe full payments aren't due yet. Or maybe he's paid the first semester and is threatening to withhold the rest. And yes, if he doesn't pay the tuition by the due date, he still has to repay the loan, and Maya doesn't get to go to college. That's the entire blackmail, you don't do what I say, you don't get to go to college. The father is obviously hoping Maya will just do what he says and eventually he has to decide to halt Maya's education, or give in to her. He hasn't reached that crossroad yet.

The thing is, for your stance to be acceptable, you need to dispute any possibility of this scenario eventuating at all. For me to argue that it is a legitimate scenario (as the game presents), I only need to come up with one legitimate example, which I have.

I really don't care about Maya's debt, I understand its narrative function and I accept it.

but you can not tell me that it is a clear and crystalline question, if to justify it you have to go and look for the case out of a thousand in which it could be credible if this and if this other...

what I maintain is that if DPC had avoided exposing the question continuously it would have been better

Nobody who plays BADIK cares about getting a student loan culture from a country that doesn't exist, and Maya talking about it all the time is pretty boring

it is the first thing she tells him in chapter 1 and it is the last thing she tells him again at the end of the sixth.

wasn't it enough that they talked about the non-existence of the free tuition?
MC knows what the free tuition was for Maya, Josy too, we players as well

 

[J1215]

I think that IF they tell Maya's father about this (whose boyfriend is MC) , then there may be 2 options to say whose boyfriend is MC (depending on the previous decisions (choices) in the game):
1) Maya; 2) Josy (if he says that MC is Josy's boyfriend, then for the father it may mean that Josy meets MC, not Maya)!

But also, I thought that if the father is very religious, then he might not like that Maya is dating(with close relationship) the MC (in this case, the father will only be satisfied with the MC-fiance (at this stage of the game it will hardly be)).
Therefore, (in this case), IF they say, they will say that MC-boyfriend of Josy!

 

[shazba]

I really don't care about Maya's debt, I understand its narrative function and I accept it.

but you can not tell me that it is a clear and crystalline question, if to justify it you have to go and look for the case out of a thousand in which it could be credible if this and if this other...

what I maintain is that if DPC had avoided exposing the question continuously it would have been better

Nobody who plays BADIK cares about getting a student loan culture from a country that doesn't exist, and Maya talking about it all the time is pretty boring

it is the first thing she tells him in chapter 1 and it is the last thing she tells him again at the end of the sixth.

wasn't it enough that they talked about the non-existence of the free tuition?
MC knows what the free tuition was for Maya, Josy too, we players as well

The thing is I didn't look for a specific case. My original opinion was that there was no way Maya's dad could have the funds, the loan would have been made out to the college and the college would have received a check and that would be it. In every loan I've every taken that has been the case (but I'm not in the US), but then I googled "misusing College loans" and found out I was wrong, that it happens, so therefore it was very possible that Maya's dad had hold of the funds. It's that simple. I had your attitude, found out I was wrong, so I changed my attitude. I'm open minded like that...