VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.10.1] [DrPinkCake]

[shazba]

I really don't care about Maya's debt, I understand its narrative function and I accept it.

but you can not tell me that it is a clear and crystalline question, if to justify it you have to go and look for the case out of a thousand in which it could be credible if this and if this other...

what I maintain is that if DPC had avoided exposing the question continuously it would have been better

Nobody who plays BADIK cares about getting a student loan culture from a country that doesn't exist, and Maya talking about it all the time is pretty boring

it is the first thing she tells him in chapter 1 and it is the last thing she tells him again at the end of the sixth.

wasn't it enough that they talked about the non-existence of the free tuition?
MC knows what the free tuition was for Maya, Josy too, we players as well

The thing is I didn't look for a specific case. My original opinion was that there was no way Maya's dad could have the funds, the loan would have been made out to the college and the college would have received a check and that would be it. In every loan I've every taken that has been the case (but I'm not in the US), but then I googled "misusing College loans" and found out I was wrong, that it happens, so therefore it was very possible that Maya's dad had hold of the funds. It's that simple. I had your attitude, found out I was wrong, so I changed my attitude. I'm open minded like that...

 

[godkingxerxes]

I see the MC giving Maya the 5k at the end of the day.

There is no way that will happen without player input.

For some players Maya is the sister of friend who let us use their dorm for a week.

 

[horusxcaen82]

There is no way that will happen without player input.

For some players Maya is the sister of friend who let us use their dorm for a week.

right I mean I am sure it will be a choice dependent on what route you take but I see that as a high possibility, because if you do all the relationship point actions MC said he would help her in anyway, and he being the Knight in Shining armor that he is would probably do it, as friends or acquaintances who knows though.

 

[felicemastronzo]

The thing is I didn't look for a specific case. My original opinion was that there was no way Maya's dad could have the funds, the loan would have been made out to the college and the college would have received a check and that would be it. In every loan I've every taken that has been the case (but I'm not in the US), but then I googled "misusing College loans" and found out I was wrong, that it happens, so therefore it was very possible that Maya's dad had hold of the funds. It's that simple. I had your attitude, found out I was wrong, so I changed my attitude. I'm open minded like that...

it seems to me that we are in a loop

what does it change that the father has the money physically?

the point was that Maya doesn't risk anything other than losing a year

while the father risks being indicted for what you have diligently found to be possible (fraud to the education department), or at least losing the interest owed to the bank.

 

[moskyx]

I'm open minded like that...

Especially if that change of opinion allows you to defend DPC from our evil attacks

I already discussed the topic some weeks ago. If DPC is making it a big part of the plot, it should be better explained because loans and student's loans exist in real life and the way they are presented in game is at least tricky compared with how they work most of times in real life. If we are in a realistic environment and there's an element that doesn't really follow real life's logic, or uses a not very common approach to it, you should explain it.

Besides, it doesn't really matter if there are student loans that are paid in cash to the student and not directly wired to the college: in real life, a co-signer never has the ability to withdraw/withheld any funds from any loan. That's what breaks everything, unless daddy's threat is an absolute bluff. Which would be at least disappointing

 

[lemonfreak]

it seems to me that we are in a loop

what does it change that the father has the money physically?

the point was that Maya doesn't risk anything other than losing a year

while the father risks being indicted for what you have diligently found to be possible (fraud to the education department), or at least losing the interest owed to the bank.

Again, Maya getting the free tuition for the 4 years of college completely changes her life. It would let her graduate from B&R entirely debt free; if she got herself a part time job during that period then she could build up a decent amount of savings that could let her buy an apartment with Josy.

 

[Procyonix]

SAGE, like the color (a shade of green) and a plant that's used as an herb.

She hangs out with Rosemary for a Thyme

 

[Holy Bacchus]

I think that IF they tell him about this, then there may be 2 options to say whose boyfriend is MC (depending on the previous decisions (choices) in the game):
1) Maya; 2) Josy (if he says that MC is Josy's boyfriend, then for the father it may mean that Josy meets MC, not Maya)!

But also, I thought that if the father is very religious, then he might not like that Maya is dating(with close relationship) the MC (in this case, the father will only be satisfied with the MC-fiance (at this stage of the game it will hardly be)).
Therefore, (in this case), if they say, they will say that MC-boyfriend of Josy!

If the MC will be roped in to pretending to be Maya's boyfriend, I have a feeling her Dad will be fine with that. He might be anti-gay, but as long as he believes his daughter is straight he probably won't care about or even acknowledge the idea that she'd be having pre-marital sex.

 

[shazba]

it seems to me that we are in a loop

what does it change that the father has the money physically?

the point was that Maya doesn't risk anything other than losing a year

while the father risks being indicted for what you have diligently found to be possible (fraud to the education department), or at least losing the interest owed to the bank.

Except the dad is trying to control Maya, not the college nor the bank. The biggest issue is Maya doesn't stand up to him. He's most likely bluffing but until she gives in or calls his bluff, her drama continues. But definitely, her life is not over if she tells her dad to fuck off and die, she gets a job for a year, maintains her relationship with Josy and goes to college the next year. She just needs help standing up to her dad. The dad is then left holding the bag and would have to simply repay the loan (with the funds he already has plus interest).

Especially if that change of opinion allows you to defend DPC from our evil attacks

I already discussed the topic some weeks ago. If DPC is making it a big part of the plot, it should be better explained because loans and student's loans exist in real life and the way they are presented in game is at least tricky compared with how they work most of times in real life. If we are in a realistic environment and there's an element that doesn't really follow real life's logic, or uses a not very common approach to it, you should explain it.

Besides, it doesn't really matter if there are student loans that are paid in cash to the student and not directly wired to the college: in real life, a co-signer never has the ability to withdraw/withheld any funds from any loan. That's what breaks everything, unless daddy's threat is an absolute bluff. Which would be at least disappointing

The cosigner is her dad. He probably helped her with the paperwork like I said in my last post. My own dad help my own sister fill out her paperwork for her loans. Dads do that kind of thing for daughters (and sons). He just transferred the funds into an account that he had control over. It's definitely illegal and stupid, but religious nutters do all sorts of stupid things in the name of religion. In his warped mind he's trying to save his daughter from eternal damnation. I do believe he's bluffing, hoping she will cave in, but things aren't panning out that way.

 

[moskyx]

Except the dad is trying to control Maya, not the college nor the bank. The biggest issue is Maya doesn't stand up to him. He's most likely bluffing but until she gives in or calls his bluff, her drama continues. But definitely, her life is not over if she tells her dad to fuck off and die, she gets a job for a year, maintains her relationship with Josy and goes to college the next year. She just needs help standing up to her dad. The dad is then left holding the bag and would have to simply repay the loan (with the funds he already has plus interest).


The cosigner is her dad. He probably helped her with the paperwork like I said in my last post. My own dad help my own sister fill out her paperwork for her loans. Dads do that kind of thing for daughters (and sons). He just transferred the funds into an account that he had control over. It's definitely illegal and stupid, but religious nutters do all sorts of stupid things in the name of religion. In his warped mind he's trying to save his daughter from eternal damnation. I do believe he's bluffing, hoping she will cave in, but things aren't panning out that way.

But a co-signer can't do that! For this to work he must take some intermediate steps: she applied for a loan, he co-signed it, then the Bank put the money in an account they both were co-owners (which would be bad practice at any level) and now he has power over that money. Again all this steps should be explained sometime because that's a very convoluted plot and not how the student loans most players are used to usually work. The fact that Josy, who is studying Economics, doesn't see an easy way out for Maya means that, whatever trick he did to have that power over the loan money, it's not uncommon in that world. MC also accepts it as something natural... and well, in real life it's not, and that's why I think DPC owes us a little explanation. Because if the solution to this drama is just talking to a financial conselor who would explain them the ropes of the loaning system I would feel slightly infuriated

 

[DavDR]

It wasn't complex at all.

We know the dad cosigned the loan and is withholding the cash. You guys say he can't do that, I show how he can.

And that's it.

It's just you've all got yourselves into a "this is a plot hole/inconsistent/Can't suspend disbelief" frenzy and you no longer are open to accepting any explanation.

If he put it into a bank account then he would be required to fill out SEC forms stating the source of the money; assuming it's in excess of $40,000 for a full tuition, at a private college, that's a safe bet. If he lies it's perjury. How's he going to persecute Maya when he's running from a money laundering investigation?

Or maybe she only took out a loan for one semester? Then she just get's more loans, next semester and handles her own money. The loans don't come due until she graduates anyway.

Or she could just quit college, and get a job, and default on the loan, problem solved. If she does that then the bank goes after her Father. If he repays it she just goes and get's another loan, and starts back to college.

I can do this all afternoon, pick more holes in this silly plot.

The reason that a big gaping plot hole like this matters is that the whole story falls through the hole. What next, Superman or the Incredible Hulk come to save Maya?

 

[Procyonix]

Oh! something I caught the second time when they were playing spin the vibrator and Quinn teases Tommy about Josy, "you guys aren't related right? so whats the problem" I hope thats not flesh out any but I could see some weird confession about him having some kind of attraction to her, with the old I hate her to hide my real feelings" ok long winded rant/thoughts done

I've felt that as well. After all, despite his protestations to the contrary if you press him during the walk of shame, I think he was really hoping she was coming. Like so many "bad boys" and "tough guys," I think Tommy is overcompensating for issues he doesn't want to deal with. And an attraction to his little step-sister would be a good cause. Especially given the friction between said step-sister and his mother.

Just a hunch anyways.

 

[lemonfreak]

But a co-signer can't do that! For this to work he must take some intermediate steps: she applied for a loan, he co-signed it, then the Bank put the money in an account they both were co-owners (which would be bad practice at any level) and now he has power over that money. Again all this steps should be explained sometime because that's a very convoluted plot and not how the student loans most players are used to usually work. The fact that Josy, who is studying Economics, doesn't see an easy way out for Maya means that, whatever trick he did to have that power over the loan money, it's not uncommon in that world. MC also accepts it as something natural... and well, in real life it's not, and that's why I think DPC owes us a little explanation. Because if the solution to this drama is just talking to a financial conselor who would explain them the ropes of the loaning system I would feel slightly infuriated

The story is that Maya needed a loan to pay for college and that her father, being an utter piece of shit that needs to recieve 10,000 papercuts to the genitals before having them dipped in lemon juice, agreed to provide collateral for that loan.

You can accept the fact that those events happened or bore the fuck people with your incessant rambling.

 

[shazba]

If he put it into a bank account then he would be required to fill out SEC forms stating the source of the money; assuming it's in excess of $40,000 for a full tuition, at a private college, that's a safe bet. If he lies it's perjury. How's he going to persecute Maya when he's running from a money laundering investigation?

Or maybe she only took out a loan for one semester? Then she just get's more loans, next semester and handles her own money. The loans don't come due until she graduates anyway.

Or she could just quit college, and get a job, and default on the loan, problem solved. If she does that then the bank goes after her Father. If he repays it she just goes and get's another loan, and starts back to college.

I can do this all afternoon, pick more holes in this silly plot.

The reason that a big gaping plot hole like this matters is that the whole story falls through the hole. What next, Superman or the Incredible Hulk come to save Maya?

You're not picking holes in the plot, you're picking hoes in Maya's response. That's different. I agree, she should call her dad's bluff and either leave college, get a job and save up and be rid of him, or he backs down.

 

[moskyx]

The story is that Maya needed a loan to pay for college and that her father, being an utter piece of shit that needs to recieve 10,000 papercuts to the genitals before having them dipped in lemon juice, agreed to provide collateral for that loan.

You can accept the fact that those events happened or bore the fuck people with your incessant rambling.

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[lemonfreak]

All future conversations regarding Maya's financial situation require

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[godkingxerxes]

But a co-signer can't do that! For this to work he must take some intermediate steps: she applied for a loan, he co-signed it, then the Bank put the money in an account they both were co-owners (which would be bad practice at any level) and now he has power over that money. Again all this steps should be explained sometime because that's a very convoluted plot and not how the student loans most players are used to usually work. The fact that Josy, who is studying Economics, doesn't see an easy way out for Maya means that, whatever trick he did to have that power over the loan money, it's not uncommon in that world. MC also accepts it as something natural... and well, in real life it's not, and that's why I think DPC owes us a little explanation. Because if the solution to this drama is just talking to a financial conselor who would explain them the ropes of the loaning system I would feel slightly infuriated

Deep thinking into this Maya tuition thing isn't worth it honestly.

You have to bend so far backwards that your head comes up through your legs and ends up where your head use to be to make any sense of it.

I say just put it in the category of all other money in this game, and understand that It's either a game mechanic(the brawler/shuffle money and the mansion mini game money) or game narrative(the 5k and Maya tuition)

 

[shazba]

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We've still got months before the next update, we'll definitely get back to this debate at some point. But perhaps we need to to change tack for now, there's something I read in the game earlier that made me wonder if Jill was the MC's aunt...

 

[Doorknocker]

The thing is I didn't look for a specific case. My original opinion was that there was no way Maya's dad could have the funds, the loan would have been made out to the college and the college would have received a check and that would be it. In every loan I've every taken that has been the case (but I'm not in the US), but then I googled "misusing College loans" and found out I was wrong, that it happens, so therefore it was very possible that Maya's dad had hold of the funds. It's that simple. I had your attitude, found out I was wrong, so I changed my attitude. I'm open minded like that...

Well, I did go to college in the US, and I had to have my financial package hammered out well before starting college. This included approving and automating the transfer of funds from student loans. Money had already been transfered by the time I started college. I think this is true of the overwhelming majority of Americans who go to college. Co-signing on a loan wouldn't change this. The money needs to be paid. And that's the problem with the plot so far. We're just told that the problem is that the dad co-signed a loan. That's not really enough to make this existential problem.

To be clear, the situation that credit.org seems to be talking about in the article you linked is if a student takes out non-standard loans to pay for things other than tuition, but doesn't use it to pay for those things, and instead invests the money as a low-interest loan. This doesn't really apply to not paying tuitition, because you have to pay tuition to keep going to school. They mention that student loans generally pay for things like tuition, in addition to other things, but they don't explain how the situation they're talking about could ever apply to a loan that's used for tuition.

Also, this article states that it is written in response to concerns about news reports that suggest some students are doing something shady. This smells very much like similar "news stories" done by Fox News that completely misrepresented the actions of Somali immigrant daycare providers that were compeltely debunked by the state's investigation. That hasn't stopped Fox News as reporting these allegations as true, or the Republican politicians as calling these allegations true to this day. So I would heavily caution the validity of these supposed reports.

Edit: And to be clear, the fact that this plot flies in the face of most American's college experience with loans is why there's a problem with suspension of disbelief here. Just saying that the father co-signed a loan really isn't enough.

 

[moskyx]

Deep thinking into this Maya tuition thing isn't worth it honestly.

You have to bend so far backwards that your head comes up through your legs and ends up where your head use to be to make any sense of it.

I say just put it in the category of all other money in this game, and understand that It's either a game mechanic(the brawler/shuffle money and the mansion mini game money) or game narrative(the 5k and Maya tuition)

Of course it's game's narrative. But a weak one as it refers to something that exist in real world but seems to work differently in game's world. That's why it needs an extra explanation, because as it's now presented we all can think like a hundred different ways for Maya to escape that great problem she has, and it doesn't feel like neither herself nor her friends are able to find just one. That's exasperating to me as a player, and adds to all those situations which could have been solved with just an ordinary skilled communication between characters but DPC decided against it for plot reasons.