VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.11.1] [DrPinkCake]

[Holy Bacchus]

From a purely narrative/stylistic point of view, do you think that being able, as players, to watch some cutscenes our MC don't see is somehow damaging our gaming experience?

We're now discussing about Quinn's scheme and it's true that we the players know way more of it than any of our MCs thanks to those cutscenes. While this is how most of films and TV shows work, in those we are just witnesses of events, we don't have the option to play a part on them and it helps us to cope with the 'wrong' choices made by our favourite characters. But here, playing as a certain character, we have more inputs of what's actually going on than our character, and this can lead to some disappointment when we can't do what "we know" we should do. Obviously being able to have a broader look than our MC can be positive because it helps to create some tension and let creators show some power dynamics that are important to the story, but it can also lead to some negative issues as we're talking now.

I honestly prefer to discover things at the same time as my character, it helps me to be more comfortable with the choices made because I feel I made the one I wanted to make with the info available at that moment, even if it proves to be a wrong one in the end. In AL we had that kind of POV narrative and, in that sense, it worked quite well. There were hints here and there so you can't say DPC was fooling you all the way, but we came to the shocking moment with the same info our MC had, so we could understand and share his shock. That's not gonna happen in BaDIK

In answer to the question, no, I don't think it damages the experience. In most cases, much like a TV show, it's giving us hints about what is to come and thus building up both our anticipation to see how these events will unfold, but also allowing us to think and to theorise about what will happen thus keeping us engaged.

It's only an issue when people forget that we are privy to much more information than the MC, like in the case of Quinn, that it becomes something of an issue when some people are assessing the MC's actions based on what we know and not what he knows. It's easy to judge the MC's action when you have all the information, but he doesn't, and people need to remember to separate those two things out when assessing and judging his actions.

Another issue can be when we see LIs being intimate with others because, even if it is something that has happened or is happening, it's not something most people want to see when they have an emotional investment in certain characters.

There are still lots of things we haven't seen and I don't expect DPC to spill every detail in these non-MC side scenes before the shock reveals, much like it was with the M&J reveal. So when it comes to someone like Bella, we'll get hints, teases, and maybe some parts of her story, but we'll still likely get blindsided by something that we didn't really see coming.

 

[felicemastronzo]

I understand that wish but equally in this kind of game people usually want to be somewhat in control of the ending and they tend to react really badly to games that make them feel like they were gotcha'd and could not achieve the ending they wanted. If we only knew the things MC knows, had no other information about what was going on, and consequently people were less inclined to warn or protect Maya because Quinn seemed less threatening, you'd end up with a lot of people who wanted to wind up with Maya upset in the end that they had ruined that relationship before they knew what was what. That might be realistic, but it's not a great game experience. Think about how people felt and reacted when they found out they could not have a happy ending for every character they cared about in Acting Lessons (which, I note, is created by the same creator as this game! He's no stranger to serious bad outcomes for characters!)

It reminds me of how in other games and stories you frequently kind of know how things are gonna go. No one's ever written a huge game or a novel series about a hero who fails in the end and the bad guy wins. At worst maybe you lose some companion characters you care about or even the protagonist dies heroically, but you mostly know the good guys are gonna win, and if it's a series you usually know the good guy's gonna survive (Game of Thrones subverted so many expectations exactly because it's so singular in Not Doing This and making people feel insecure about every character's fate, and the main way it's able to do this is by not really having a protagonist).

People want agency and want to craft the story to their liking (and probably their fetish, in an adult game), but they don't want a bad ending, or at least they don't want a bad ending that they can't easily hit the back button a few times or reload a save from 5 minutes ago and make the opposite choice.

the hope that bad things won't happen I gave up after finishing AL

therefore "divine" knowledge only serves to increase frustration (as in AL)

 

[moskyx]

I understand that wish but equally in this kind of game people usually want to be somewhat in control of the ending and they tend to react really badly to games that make them feel like they were gotcha'd and could not achieve the ending they wanted. If we only knew the things MC knows, had no other information about what was going on, and consequently people were less inclined to warn or protect Maya because Quinn seemed less threatening, you'd end up with a lot of people who wanted to wind up with Maya upset in the end that they had ruined that relationship before they knew what was what. That might be realistic, but it's not a great game experience. Think about how people felt and reacted when they found out they could not have a happy ending for every character they cared about in Acting Lessons (which, I note, is created by the same creator as this game! He's no stranger to serious bad outcomes for characters!)

But that has an easy solution. If you know by now Quinn's scheme, you warn Maya. If you don't know it, you'll still have the option to save her later on. If you know it and you didn't warn her, well... that's entirely on you, that's not what a good friend who wants to be something else should have done. That's a good game experience, your choices do matter and their consequences are somehow logical.

 

[zoyle]

But that has an easy solution. If you know by now Quinn's scheme, you warn Maya. If you don't know it, you'll still have the option to save her later on. If you know it and you didn't warn her, well... that's entirely on you, that's not what a good friend who wants to be something else should have done. That's a good game experience, your choices do matter and their consequences are somehow logical.

And indeed, those are the options that have been presented to us. Maya hasn't taken our advice, though, at least not yet (but that doesn't mean she won't remember it when she encounters something shady, which she hasn't done yet). Equally, its possible that those who didn't warn her when they had nothing very substantial will get an opportunity to redeem themselves with another warning and, at least, mitigate the consequences for her.

I feel like the game is being set up in such a way that most sets of decisions will lead to outcomes for Maya that are varying degrees of less than ideal, but if the MC has made all the right choices along the way (from warning her to spending time with her at the party instead of going with Josy, etc), then they'll be able to keep her entirely free of consequences. That may involve a tradeoff making it impossible to have the best outcome for other relationships (in particular, I could see it being impossible to get the best outcomes for both Sage and Maya at the same time).

 

[ename144]

What can he tell her? "I fucked Camila's ass through a glory hole after I called up Quinn"? I don't think that's quite what Maya was looking for when she asked the MC to be honest with her and the MC has the good sense to keep that to himself, not just because of how Maya would react to that, but also because he doesn't know the full story of why Camila did that. He just knows that it happened after calling Quinn which causes him to be wary of her and he simply tells Maya to be wary as well which is really as much as he can do at this point.

He can straight up tell her that Quinn offers sex for money. The MC definitely knows that much and it's far more specific than just saying she's 'evil.'

If he turns down Quinn's offer anything more is speculation, but not all speculation is created equal. The way Quinn describes her restaurant does imply the menu consists of more than just her. If we assume there are other girls, the HOTs are the obvious suspects. I mean who else is there? They'd have to be girls Quinn knows, and teachers or professional hookers wouldn't make any sense. Even if the menu included non-HOT students, you'd expect the HOTs to be disproportionately represented simply because of their reputation and Quinn's social circle.

In fact, if we look at what a pure CHICK MC says when he tries to warn Maya, it seems he has indeed made that connection:


So no, I don't think we can excuse the MC's lousy warning on lack of character knowledge. Yes, MCs who used Quinn's menu might want to omit that fact (though they could still lie and say they turned down the offer), but by the same token MCs who didn't should be that much more motivated to warn Maya specifically.

 

[moskyx]

In answer to the question, no, I don't think it damages the experience. In most cases, much like a TV show, it's giving us hints about what is to come and thus building up both our anticipation to see how these events will unfold, but also allowing us to think and to theorise about what will happen thus keeping us engaged.

It's only an issue when people forget that we are privy to much more information than the MC, like in the case of Quinn, that it becomes something of an issue when some people are assessing the MC's actions based on what we know and not what he knows. It's easy to judge the MC's action when you have all the information, but he doesn't, and people need to remember to separate those two things out when assessing and judging his actions.

Well, but that's exactly what I mean. People get frustrated with their own MC because they know more than him and can't use that info when needed. That's ruining the game experience for them. You're demanding players to step away from the character they are handling, and that's an effort not everybody is able/willing/used to do.

At the same time, I agree with the first part of your comment. If we were as blind as our MC, probably we wouldn't see so many theories and might be asking ourselves what's the actual point of the game, where's the catch.

 

[zoyle]

He can straight up tell her that Quinn offers sex for money. The MC definitely knows that much and it's far more specific than just saying she's 'evil.'

If he turns down Quinn's offer anything more is speculation, but not all speculation is created equal. The way Quinn describes her restaurant does imply the menu consists of more than just her. If we assume there are other girls, the HOTs are the obvious suspects. I mean who else is there? They'd have to be girls Quinn knows, and teachers or professional hookers wouldn't make any sense. Even if the menu included non-HOT students, you'd expect the HOTs to be disproportionately represented simply because of their reputation and Quinn's social circle.

In fact, if we look at what a pure CHICK MC says when he tries to warn Maya, it seems he has indeed made that connection:
View attachment 766016

So no, I don't think we can excuse the MC's lousy warning on lack of character knowledge. Yes, MCs who used Quinn's menu might want to omit that fact (though they could still lie and say they turned down the offer), but by the same token MCs who didn't should be that much more motivated to warn Maya specifically.

On the other hand, that line you showed there is not a thought bubble, they're words MC said directly to Maya. She neither follows up or appears to heed the warning (yet).

With that said, though, I think that's fundamentally realistic: as much as there's a lot going on between MC and Maya, they haven't known each other that long. I don't think it's unrealistic for Maya to more or less take the warning under advisement, but for it to be important to her deciding that yes, something IS wrong with this situation and this is why he warned me, once she ends up in the vicinity of such a situation. Maya doesn't exactly ask MC to elaborate in this scene, so she either doesn't get what he's implying or she doesn't take it seriously yet, and, as you mentioned, he's pretty clear about what he believes.

 

[ename144]

On the other hand, that line you showed there is not a thought bubble, they're words MC said directly to Maya. She neither follows up or appears to heed the warning (yet).

With that said, though, I think that's fundamentally realistic: as much as there's a lot going on between MC and Maya, they haven't known each other that long. I don't think it's unrealistic for Maya to more or less take the warning under advisement, but for it to be important to her deciding that yes, something IS wrong with this situation and this is why he warned me, once she ends up in the vicinity of such a situation. Maya doesn't exactly ask MC to elaborate in this scene, so she either doesn't get what he's implying or she doesn't take it seriously yet, and, as you mentioned, he's pretty clear about what he believes.

But my point is that while it's clear what he believes, it's very unclear what he is warning Maya about. That feels like the worst of both worlds to me.

If he's not going to give Maya a proper warning, why make it clear that he knows enough to give her a better warning?

 

[moskyx]

But my point is that while it's clear what he believes, it's very unclear what he is warning Maya about. That feels like the worst of both worlds to me.

If he's not going to give Maya a proper warning, why make it clear that he knows enough to give her a better warning?

Same reason none of them ever say it loud the name of her summer crush/secret girlfriend even when talking about her.

PLOT-TWIST!!

Don't try to understand it, just put up with it

 

[Holy Bacchus]

At the same time, I agree with the first part of your comment. If we were as blind as our MC, probably we wouldn't see so many theories and might be asking ourselves what's the actual point of the game, where's the catch.

Which is what other games lack. There's very little that's unknown about the "story" of other games and VNs because they're either blatantly explained to the MC, or there isn't much of a story because it's basically just about fucking your way through as many girls as possible until the dev decides to conclude things and move on to their next game.

If this game didn't include all those side scenes that the MC is not involved in, it would still be a good game and we'd probably still be talking a lot about it, but those scenes enhance the story by letting us see what else is going on and giving us an insight into the other principle players.

 

[zoyle]

Same reason none of them ever say it loud the name of her summer crush/secret girlfriend even when talking about her.

PLOT-TWIST!!

Don't try to understand it, just put up with it

Lol yeah that twist is pretty contrived though I admit I found the lack of communication pretty realistic, because, well, people are really bad at communicating, especially at communicating with people they're sexually interested in about their potential interest in 3rd parties. Note that Maya also never asks him to tell her about his summertime crush, even though he tells her about his date. She doesn't want to know. And honestly, that is incredibly realistic and typical of new relationships at all ages, especially young ones. People suck at communicating. Especially if they think what they have to say will disappoint or upset the person they're gonna tell.

 

[zoyle]

Omfg...yes he does. Quinn spells it out pretty explicitly for you, asking if you get laid a lot right before offering you her service. This is regardless of whether choice you make which comes afterwards.

Yeah, clearly MC knows that Quinn is coordinating some kind of sex service, but there's an enormous range between what is essentially escorting or messing around and having girls who are also drug dealers being pimped out to whoever. And MC has no idea which of those it is, or how willing the girls involved are, or where the money goes in the end, all of which are really significant factors in exactly how bad the situation is.

 

[crabsinthekitchen]

He can straight up tell her that Quinn offers sex for money. The MC definitely knows that much and it's far more specific than just saying she's 'evil.'

If he turns down Quinn's offer anything more is speculation, but not all speculation is created equal. The way Quinn describes her restaurant does imply the menu consists of more than just her. If we assume there are other girls, the HOTs are the obvious suspects. I mean who else is there? They'd have to be girls Quinn knows, and teachers or professional hookers wouldn't make any sense. Even if the menu included non-HOT students, you'd expect the HOTs to be disproportionately represented simply because of their reputation and Quinn's social circle.

In fact, if we look at what a pure CHICK MC says when he tries to warn Maya, it seems he has indeed made that connection:
View attachment 766016

So no, I don't think we can excuse the MC's lousy warning on lack of character knowledge. Yes, MCs who used Quinn's menu might want to omit that fact (though they could still lie and say they turned down the offer), but by the same token MCs who didn't should be that much more motivated to warn Maya specifically.

MC tells Maya that Quinn uses girls to earn money, that's like the next line after the one you showed. It's Maya who doesn't understand what "using girls to make money" means

 

[zoyle]

No it doesn't. I have done both, she says the same thing regardless.

Yeah, the dialogue during the final scene (on the picnic blanket) is the same and Maya is always the one who says it there. She's also the first person to bring up 'I could lose you both' during the scene in the DIK library.

However, depending how you play out Episode 5, you can also get the same messages from Josy in the content that is dependent on your choice (eg she mentions the same idea in the dorm before the sex there, and in the text message string).

Like I said, I agree that Maya's the instigator of that idea, if you will, but I don't think it's intended to be clear that she's the only one who feels that way, and that's why it's set up so you get that information no matter how you progress through Ep 5 (whereas, if it was just Maya and only affected her feelings, it could potentially be information you 'miss out' on by not taking her path in Ep 5). Instead, you have Josy re-iterating the same stuff to make sure MC doesn't miss out on it, even if (and I think it's likely) she's less worried about it than Maya.

And, again, like I said above, that additional vulnerability is likely to make it so that Maya is actually the one who moves the fastest emotionally, and that warning will actually serve to do what similar requests usually serve in real life: To allow Maya to be the person who chooses how fast things progress. I don't actually think she'll choose to go slow, though. That's what "We should take it slow" usually really means - "I want to be the one who decides how fast this goes." It doesn't usually have a lot of relation to the actual speed things progress, but allowing the person who is more afraid/less secure/less experienced/less comfortable to feel like they're able to move at whatever speed they're comfortable with.

That can actually turn out to be a lot faster than the other partner would have chosen to move. (he says with resigned experience)

The same is true of Jill's "we're going too fast for me". It doesn't actually mean Jill will keep it moving slowly (though it's more likely than Maya). She just wants to be in control of how fast it moves.

 

[Maviarab]

Yeah, clearly MC knows that Quinn is coordinating some kind of sex service, but there's an enormous range between what is essentially escorting or messing around and having girls who are also drug dealers being pimped out to whoever. And MC has no idea which of those it is, or how willing the girls involved are, or where the money goes in the end, all of which are really significant factors in exactly how bad the situation is.

So that is the whole damn point. Shoddy writing purely for plot. he KNOWS....he could just tell maya that. But no, he doesn't. For the plot. And sorry, while I do love Badik...it's annoying.

MC tells Maya that Quinn uses girls to earn money, that's like the next line after the one you showed. It's Maya who doesn't understand what "using girls to make money" means

Not really because if the dialogue went anywhere like it really would in life (expecially to someone you have feelings for) you'd explain exactly what you meant to her. Stop making excuses for shoddy writing for plot progression.

Yeah, the dialogue during the final scene (on the picnic blanket) is the same and Maya is always the one who says it there. She's also the first person to bring up 'I could lose you both' during the scene in the DIK library.

However, depending how you play out Episode 5, you can also get the same messages from Josy in the content that is dependent on your choice (eg she mentions the same idea in the dorm before the sex there, and in the text message string).

Like I said, I agree that Maya's the instigator of that idea, if you will, but I don't think it's intended to be clear that she's the only one who feels that way, and that's why it's set up so you get that information no matter how you progress through Ep 5 (whereas, if it was just Maya and only affected her feelings, it could potentially be information you 'miss out' on by not taking her path in Ep 5). Instead, you have Josy re-iterating the same stuff to make sure MC doesn't miss out on it, even if (and I think it's likely) she's less worried about it than Maya.

And, again, like I said above, that additional vulnerability is likely to make it so that Maya is actually the one who moves the fastest emotionally, and that warning will actually serve to do what similar requests usually serve in real life: To allow Maya to be the person who chooses how fast things progress. I don't actually think she'll choose to go slow, though.

Again no. The picnic scene is where this happens. What they say seperately to you (as friends or lovers) is moot and not what we are talking about. The scene in reference, Maya says she does not want to attach labels for fear of it not working out and losing both Josy and the MC. Josy is all for being serious about it. Maya is not. This is regardless of who said who to what in private and who you slept with as this scene is after the party.

 

[Dashxp4k]

This is probably only intended to discord people only.
Sorry but here is my limits, public patreon releases would still go but not like this.

I hope someone else can help you, this case.

Edit:
Tip, there is none of the girls

What is it then?

 

[Wizard_Shiryuu]

Thats cause he doesnt really tell her anything. Uh careful Quinn is evil is not a warning.

Not a warning, just a fact .

 

[Prince 69]

Any news about fix android version

 

[zoyle]

So that is the whole damn point. Shoddy writing purely for plot. he KNOWS....he could just tell maya that. But no, he doesn't. For the plot. And sorry, while I do love Badik...it's annoying.



Not really because if the dialogue went anywhere like it really would in life (expecially to someone you have feelings for) you'd explain exactly what you meant to her. Stop making excuses for shoddy writing for plot progression.



Again no. The picnic scene is where this happens. What they say seperately to you (as friends) is moot and not what we are talking about. The scene in reference, Maya says she does not want to attach labels for fear of it not working out and losing both Josy and the MC. Josy is all for being serious about it. Maya is not. This is regardless of who said who to what in private and who you slept with.

Yeah, I am also not talking about 'as friends'. There is a bunch of relationship dialogue prior to that final scene where both girls bring up the notion. Yes, this is the situation where all 3 of them discuss it together (and Maya initiates the discussion), but the MC has been having that conversation with either one of the girls (depending on choice) previously, and presumably -they have also been talking to each other about it-. I guess you can argue that Josy has already had the conversation with Maya and is bringing it up with MC because they already discussed it and agreed (and I'd suggest that's realistic and likely), but it's not like the 'we should take it slow' is some kind of surprise blindside request out of left field at the end of the episode - it's super predictable and has been being discussed between the characters since the end of episode 4. I think we fundamentally agree on the dynamic (Maya's insecure about it, Josy's less so, but she advocates for what Maya asks for because she agrees and/or just values her comfort, the same way that MC agrees). We're just quibbling about the little details along the way.

I also think you're being a little unrealistic about the scene between MC and Maya in Ep 2, where Maya still considers herself a lesbian (and MC believes this). Some sort of extravagant feelings declaration in that situation would have been wildly inappropriate and poorly received, as Maya is only very slowly through Episodes 2 and 3 working her way through the idea that she might be attracted to a guy and that it might be OK if she is.

The window where Maya and the MC are in a situation where their relationship and interest in each other is clear enough for that conversation to happen is ..exactly one slide long. It is the slide between the end of their first attempt at sex and Josy's arrival in the dorm room. Before that, MC being more assertive about his feelings with her is a terrible idea and wildly inappropriate, and in fact it's probably not until that moment that MC would even realize that a relationship with Maya is potentially a possibility that could be considered.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

Any news about fix android version

None.