opened iray boy after nearly a year
not there but there is room tho
not there but there is room tho
Blender Cycle vs Daz iRay
- Thread starter pezo
- Start date
sleeping.... You posted at 2 in the morning EU time
.But here some images rendered with cycles (they aren't mine).
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And one I have been working on myself. Far from perfect (lips, ears, eyescorners/tear ducts, eyelashes and eyebrows need some work. Neck is an old version as well and need to be updated), but i'm pretty happy with how it looks so far. Dont mind the hair thats a whole different challenge.
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The render engine isnt that important for the end result. I would still say cycles+PBR node-setup> Iray as it allowes much more customisation, altering on the fly, and ways to speed up rendertime.
It all depends on how much you play around with things, this is iray stopped at 1000 iterations after 3 minutes. Its massively custom everything the texture mind you. A little but of photoshop, Im not very good with it.
True that render engine bias is not that big in most case, at least with any ray tracer I tried. But the week you took to setup perfectly your nodes, as skin require constant attention, I should be finishing sculpting/painting my micro details and start the iterating process.
It's a nice skin, what looks like a good disp map and a labour of love. I may sound arrogant, but I think I could pull the same thing with Iray, with a very tiny fraction of the time you put in it. That's where Iray truly shine imo, and I say this as I started my own little project with Vray.
Sure Iray is slow, something among 33% at equal quality when I run my test with Octane over a year ago, but find it pale in comparison with iterative/creation process. With VN porn in mind, quality wise, I find Blender to be quite of waste of time. Change my mind
.Well 95%+ of the time I spend on that skin was in substance painter and photoshop getting the maps right. Setting up the skin node in Blender is pretty easy and straightforward. I just plugged the maps from substance painter into their respective nodes in the principal BDSF node, and used some simple other nodes to alter some small parts here and there. Nothing to complex and pretty straightforward if you have used blender before.True that render engine bias is not that big in most case, at least with any ray tracer I tried. But the week you took to setup perfectly your nodes, as skin require constant attention, I should be finishing sculpting/painting my micro details and start the iterating process.
It's a nice skin, what looks like a good disp map and a labour of love. I may sound arrogant, but I think I could pull the same thing with Iray, with a very tiny fraction of the time you put in it. That's where Iray truly shine imo, and I say this as I started my own little project with Vray.
Sure Iray is slow, something among 33% at equal quality when I run my test with Octane over a year ago, but find it pale in comparison with iterative/creation process. With VN porn in mind, quality wise, I find Blender to be quite of waste of time. Change my mind
What I more ment is that blenders PBR material set-up allows for easy small alterations. For example a color ramp node allows you to easily alter the high and low levels of glossyness on your face, which as far as I know isn't possible in Iray. You could ofc go back to substance painter/photoshop and alter it, but that's a lot of going back and forth between programs till you are happy with your result.
As for waste of time I will agree with you it's a waste of time for 99% of the games/developers on here. Daz and iray are easy enough to learn and with Daz library you can get some decent results pretty fast. But if the library doesn't offer what you want or you aren't satisfied with the quality of assets I would argue you are better of switching to an actual modeling program then sticking to Daz, as an actual modeling program just has much more to offer. Altering the skin maps is one thing, but if you want complete freedom on your end result Daz isn't the tool for it.
As for quality thats all subjective. Some swear by high and lows Daz models are extremely realistic looking, while personally Im not the biggest fan of the base models (they always got a bit of doll look). You can get better results by replacing the maps for sure, but for hyper realism you want to be able to control every little aspect of the final result. And that's just not Daz/Iray.
Blender and Cycles are far from perfect but they allow for much more control and alteration compared to Daz/Iray. Since it's still a relatively young program/render engine it's for sure not on par with the giants like 3ds-max, Maya, Zbrush and render engines like Vray or Arnold, but it gets better and better with every update, and for a free program it's pretty impressive. Which from your own 'Why Daz sucks post' can't be said about Daz and its development lately.
That said Daz/Iray is great at what it does and really can't be beat for quality vs time investment, especially for non-professionals. But if you are looking to stand out Daz just has its limitation at what it can achieve, while Blender and Cycles allows for a wider variety and more freedom of what you are making. If the quality is better is all subjective, but I personally believe more freedom and control allows for better results if you know what to do.
Indeed, Cycle has way more options and control, I would add quality render require generally a good chunk of back & forth between shader nodes, especially to showcase a fairly good detailled skin with a photo realist look. But I don't think it's enviable in the case of Daz/Iray as quality or control is not really the problem (over surfaces, global rendering options is truly lacking). Problem of Daz/Iray is more akin to shading 'space' available imo. As if Daz/Iray layers are quite good at what they does, they are also rather limited in number. It's not that unusual to travestite one layer of its primary fonction because you lack of 'space' (which you couldn't care less with Cycle or any more robust engine).
But in other hand this limitation can also come as a benefit outside homogeneous surfaces. As you can pretty much import any surfaces from anywhere, slap an Iray shader on it, and make it looks good with basically zero effort. That's why I disagree about what you write about library later. You keep a Daz model base, which you can freely edit shape with Zbrush bridge, and keep compatibility with other Daz assets (mostly hair & clothes), the rest doesn't really matter nor where it comes from. You could
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some texturing.xyz maps on a Daz model, use Iray shaders and achieve some noice photo realism for a rather minimal effort.Outside hard technical block, you can alter pretty much anything from Daz, even what you supposedly shouldn't with some tricks (to some extent), while indeed not as good as more robust engines. But imo, at some point it ceases to be good at what is at : quality vs time investment, for a quality gain that can be quite marginal. For gloss control I think most people use
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specular to weight its high/low amount (some people may prefer using a Top coat or both).For Daz assets, would say it's quite the lottery like any 3D-marketplace. Most models shapes have L'Oreal mannequin legs and most pre-made pose for people who use it are very unatural, and like everything else, skins themselves greatly varies in term of quality. Ended up only downloading assets by creator rather than the shop picture of it (rookie mistake). I would add Daz ecosystem provide sometime its own uniqueness, like
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where you can use a dozen of high subD displacement together - playing both with morphs and subD level. Terribly fun (and smart) to mess with.I think the problem with Blender, if there is any and maybe I'm wrong, it's that it try hard to be everything without really shining anywhere (especially against big mastodonte). You can do a hell lot of things but I've never had any particular reason to use it, outside as a bridge between different software and curiosity. I think it lacks a push in one direction with some killer feature that make people stick with it for convinience. But I agree it has rock solid fondation and if no major fuck up, it can get only better with time. For what it's worth I'm way more perplex about the future of Daz Studio, when you start to remove feature to better sold them instead...
You don't just throw texturing.xyz texturing on a model. I bought one of their packs a couple weeks ago on 75% of sale, and while impressive qua quality, it's a pain in the ass to morph/alter them to your models UV. That's why I spend most of my time in photoshop/substance painter, trying to get those maps to fit right. Redid it like 20 times to find a good work flow going.Indeed, Cycle has way more options and control, I would add quality render require generally a good chunk of back & forth between shader nodes, especially to showcase a fairly good detailled skin with a photo realist look. But I don't think it's enviable in the case of Daz/Iray as quality or control is not really the problem (over surfaces, global rendering options is truly lacking). Problem of Daz/Iray is more akin to shading 'space' available imo. As if Daz/Iray layers are quite good at what they does, they are also rather limited in number. It's not that unusual to travestite one layer of its primary fonction because you lack of 'space' (which you couldn't care less with Cycle or any more robust engine).
But in other hand this limitation can also come as a benefit outside homogeneous surfaces. As you can pretty much import any surfaces from anywhere, slap an Iray shader on it, and make it looks good with basically zero effort. That's why I disagree about what you write about library later. You keep a Daz model base, which you can freely edit shape with Zbrush bridge, and keep compatibility with other Daz assets (mostly hair & clothes), the rest doesn't really matter nor where it comes from. You couldYou must be registered to see the linkssome texturing.xyz maps on a Daz model, use Iray shaders and achieve some noice photo realism for a rather minimal effort.
Outside hard technical block, you can alter pretty much anything from Daz, even what you supposedly shouldn't with some tricks (to some extent), while indeed not as good as more robust engines. But imo, at some point it ceases to be good at what is at : quality vs time investment, for a quality gain that can be quite marginal. For gloss control I think most people useYou must be registered to see the linksspecular to weight its high/low amount (some people may prefer using a Top coat or both).
For Daz assets, would say it's quite the lottery like any 3D-marketplace. Most models shapes have L'Oreal mannequin legs and most pre-made pose for people who use it are very unatural, and like everything else, skins themselves greatly varies in term of quality. Ended up only downloading assets by creator rather than the shop picture of it (rookie mistake). I would add Daz ecosystem provide sometime its own uniqueness, likeYou must be registered to see the linkswhere you can use a dozen of high subD displacement together - playing both with morphs and subD level. Terribly fun (and smart) to mess with.
I think the problem with Blender, if there is any and maybe I'm wrong, it's that it try hard to be everything without really shining anywhere (especially against big mastodonte). You can do a hell lot of things but I've never had any particular reason to use it, outside as a bridge between different software and curiosity. I think it lacks a push in one direction with some killer feature that make people stick with it for convinience. But I agree it has rock solid fondation and if no major fuck up, it can get only better with time. For what it's worth I'm way more perplex about the future of Daz Studio, when you start to remove feature to better sold them instead...
As for the library, I didn't really ment characters with it. It's character library has a wide variety of assets, but it's environment library is pretty limited. There's like one school building in the whole library for example. It's alright if you go for a nowadays 'basic' story, but if you want something different you kinda need to upload a large amount of assets into Daz.
As for Blender not really shining at anything and more being a tool of all trades master of none kind of program, it's somewhat true. The core of the program and where is started at (the modeling) is actually very good and compared to the other giants 'easier' to understand. It's by far the most developed expect of it, and can stay even or even surpass the giants on this part.
The newer functions are a bit meh compared to the giants. It's texture painting functions are very limited compared to substance painter and Mari, and it's sculpting is nothing compared to Zbrush. It's animation and physics is not that bad actually It's not on the same level as Maya but blender doesn't cost like 4000 a year
, and it's atleast a lot better then Daz one. Blender for sure has much more potential if it keeps up developing. 2.8 was a massive update for usability and some of the new principal 'uber' nodes are amazing (apperently the principal hair node was based on the one used in Zootopia movie), and it's development is pretty fast compared to the other programs. I doubt it will every become the standard program to use, but for hobbyist it's pretty good. It's just a lot more time consuming to get your result.
You don't just throw texturing.xyz texturing on a model. I bought one of their packs a couple weeks ago on 75% of sale, and while impressive qua quality, it's a pain in the ass to morph/alter them to your models UV. That's why I spend most of my time in photoshop/substance painter, trying to get those maps to fit right. Redid it like 20 times to find a good work flow going.
As for the library, I didn't really ment characters with it. It's character library has a wide variety of assets, but it's environment library is pretty limited. There's like one school building in the whole library for example. It's alright if you go for a nowadays 'basic' story, but if you want something different you kinda need to upload a large amount of assets into Daz.
As for Blender not really shining at anything and more being a tool of all trades master of none kind of program, it's somewhat true. The core of the program and where is started at (the modeling) is actually very good and compared to the other giants 'easier' to understand. It's by far the most developed expect of it, and can stay even or even surpass the giants on this part.
The newer functions are a bit meh compared to the giants. It's texture painting functions are very limited compared to substance painter and Mari, and it's sculpting is nothing compared to Zbrush. It's animation and physics is not that bad actually It's not on the same level as Maya but blender doesn't cost like 4000 a year
Blender for sure has much more potential if it keeps up developing. 2.8 was a massive update for usability and some of the new principal 'uber' nodes are amazing (apperently the principal hair node was based on the one used in Zootopia movie), and it's development is pretty fast compared to the other programs. I doubt it will every become the standard program to use, but for hobbyist it's pretty good. It's just a lot more time consuming to get your result.
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Head texture of the girl I posted later comes from
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and blended directly onto a Daz skin. Took me around 10 min, it's quite raw and need polish but dirt cheap & quick.
For library, I would say just import what you need, Daz library or elsewhere... Like well, any other software? I'm not sure what kind of problem is that
.Kinda agree with you Blender points tho, as far I know. I would add Blender sometime feel so damn old school - like how something as baking textures from one UV map to another can be so damn tedious. Savage lol.
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Well yeah if the UV of your mesh lines up perfectly with the new skin maps its just plug and play. Would be the same in Blender.
Unfortunately the maps from texturing.xyz aren't perfectly lined up with the UV map (they are a bit wierd with closed eyes and mouth which no other map really uses) so you kinda need to puppet warp it somewhat in place in photoshop, place/paint that on your model and then fix all the parts that aren't correct (which are ofc the most trickiest parts like the eyes and the mount). And do that for each map. Setting up the skin after you got the maps done right can easily be done in 15 minutes in Blender or any other rendering software for that matter.
As for the library I just dont see a reason why you would stick to DAZ if the majority of the assets you want to use aren't available in the DAZ library. But I guess that's just where we differentiate: I don't really see much value in Daz outside of its Library and it's easy to use, and when you got to start using other programs to get the assets you want I just don't see a point why you would stick to Daz. But you seems to do. Different opinions I suppose.
You can't think seriously that any 3D scan, or any skin for that matter, gonna line up with anything by mircale? You have to force it lol, whatever you gonna use. Iray is way less harsh than any full-pbr engine on 'cranked' maps blended like this and done in no time, and without going all in with Zwrap/Zbrush projection on each maps.
Where we differentiate is that I consider Daz/Iray as valid qualities, do a lot for not so much, and scope well for small project. And If I need more, I go where I can get more. I guess that's about it
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- Aug 24, 2019
- 8
- 14
Hi all, I'm working on a custom Blender build that integrates Iray Uber Shader.
This is done by using the same material code generated by Nvidia MDL SDK which Iray also relies on.
I have attached a WIP render comparison of material ball scene between Daz Iray and the custom Blender build, where both uses Iray Uber Shader:
If you would like to discuss on how this could be best designed to suit your usability needs, I have setup a Discord server for this -
(The server is called NPR lab but it has a category called 'Z-Cycles' which is the name of this Blender build)
This is done by using the same material code generated by Nvidia MDL SDK which Iray also relies on.
I have attached a WIP render comparison of material ball scene between Daz Iray and the custom Blender build, where both uses Iray Uber Shader:
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- The checker texture coordinate shown is slightly different because I haven't yet figured out exactly how to translate this faithfully
- Lighting is very similar but not the same
- Material parameter values set in Cycles here aren't yet 100% accurate compared to Daz counterpart
- BSDF node for Iray Uber Shader
- Volume node for Iray Uber Shader
- Accurately import and link all material parameters in Blender
- Implement Emission Node for Iray Uber Shader
- Fix Render pass outputs for the Iray Uber Shader nodes
- Fix Branched Path Tracing mode for the Iray Uber Shader nodes
If you would like to discuss on how this could be best designed to suit your usability needs, I have setup a Discord server for this -
You must be registered to see the links
(The server is called NPR lab but it has a category called 'Z-Cycles' which is the name of this Blender build)
- May 21, 2018
- 165
- 310
You shouldn't really
Not Vray problem per se, but more with Zbrush, I have a long long way to go
- May 21, 2018
- 165
- 310
You shouldn't really
Not Vray problem per se, but more with Zbrush, I have a long long way to go
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- Jan 3, 2020
- 550
- 3,131
like everything else this is a matter of making a choice:
Losing time converting to a language you know, and creating a workflow that works for you.
Or
Learning from scratch the new language and save time, since that language has already a workflow setup.
I asked myself this, regarding creating textures and maps.
Should i create myself a workflow and do everything myself, or learn Daz and work from there?
Losing time converting to a language you know, and creating a workflow that works for you.
Or
Learning from scratch the new language and save time, since that language has already a workflow setup.
I asked myself this, regarding creating textures and maps.
Should i create myself a workflow and do everything myself, or learn Daz and work from there?