No harm done and thank you for the clarification of your viewpoint.
Bored with repetative game patterns
- Thread starter Diconica
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Anyway, if Harris and Dick, who are effectively great authors, are deep waters, I wonder where I was standing in 9th grade when we were studying Flaubert and Proust ; the Marianne pit ?
But, going to school in France still have its advantage. You're facing a ton of great authors, including none french ones, that you've to study and that annoy you because you're too young to appreciate them, but it permit you to understand that writing quality is something that is neither quantifiable nor frozen. It can be academical (Flaubert), emotional (Proust), or more journalistic (Hugo), as it can be classical (Racine) or popular (Molière).
Say the guy clearly angry to have been called out, to the guy who weren't concerned and just gave his own opinion. Oh irony, when you hold us.
You should have payed more attention in History classes, the West is a competitive culture. It started in ancient Greece, with its city states constantly competing to take the lead, and never ceased since. At the fall of the western roman empire, it became a competition between the nobility, for the praise of Rome at first, then for the praise of the artists and philosophers at the fall of the eastern roman empire. And finally, with the 19th century and its industrial revolution, it's individuals that entered the competition.
Apparently yes, since it's what you expect from me.
Thinking, but failing to effectively demonstrate, that I don't know what is good writing, you expect me to shut the fuck up and let people like you express what is nothing more than their opinion. And this solely because you're clearly offended to see me give, too often for your taste, what is nothing more than my own opinion.
Say the guy still angry, but this time because the only answers he received weren't supports for his opinion.
And the funny part is that you're probably proud of you, believing that you've rise against oppression, while you're just standing with the oppressors, asking to people who let you express your opinion, to shut the fuck up and stop expressing theirs.
In the end, not only you are everything you denounced in your comment, but in this part of the discussion you are the only one who act this way.
Is it still a story if its never going to be finished?
The problem I see is this kind of projects is they take a gigantic amount of time.
I have no doubt that 90% of the still active projects here will disappear in two years.
Sure popular projects can still keep going.
But no one knows what might happen in the future, if your project were to be in a half finished state like that how would you evaluate it?
I completely disagree with people comparing this kind of projects with works that actually exist that are finished that you can read. If they are finished then we can talk about their quality.
Ongoing tv-series aren't done.
Mangas and anime that people read and watch every weak aren't done.
Some of the major series books, such a GoT, aren't done.
People still love the stories and hence your whole argument just falls flat.
A story is still a story even if the end hasn't been done yet.
The whole 90% of projects will disappear claim, which I disagree on, is for another topic and has no relevance to this.
- Jun 24, 2018
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I might have agreed with you except all the stupid shit I seen funded on go fund me. People will give money to feel good about themselves.
Sorry, took so long to reply.
Mario
That's around the time I broke my teeth on ASM, C and Basic. Trash80, commodore 64 and atari 800xl. Yep, we didn't have but a few K then to write our code and store data. In fact still got "Mapping the Atari" sitting on the self next to me.
For over a decade now I've been working with forms of real time ray trace systems.
Real time ray tracing issues
The reason we haven't seen real time ray tracing in consumer games is more complex than you might think. The fact is industry could very well have had it but it would required a larger code base to maintain and certainly required people to have better systems on average.
Basically most game engine developers figured it was more cost effective to wait for hardware to improve.
A more detailed explanation regarding code.
Standard 3D game engine uses meshes to describe objects in a scene. There a number of methods used to increase performance space partitioning with BSP, quadtree or octree or other methods. Then you have culling such as view port and distance culling, back face culling and so on. Those get rid of meshes, objects and faces that aren't visible. Then you have stuff like LOD(Level of Detail) which is used to reduce the number of polygons to represent an object.
When you look at tray tracing at its simplest it is actually much simpler in nature. You have two primary forms forward and reverse casting. You can follow the beam of light from the source to the eye or the eye back to the source. While doing so the beam hits surfaces and reflects and so on. You use that to calculate the color and intensity the light creates at that pixel.
It's rather simple to implement. However it is slow because it involves a lot of calculations.
However many of the aspects that improve performance in a standard 3D game can also be used in a manor to improve ray tracing to work much faster. You can also use results from near by arrays to lend to some predictive ability to reduce ray trace lengths. Such as if you know an area is going to be a very dark region that any other ray following a near path should do maybe the first bounce there and if it doesn't see a sharp deviation it should go ahead and stop. You can build that functionality into a simple neural net. The problem is all that code tends to need to be combined together to work with the ray tracing system.
That creates a lot more complex codebase that is harder to maintain and update and work with.
It would have been next to impossible to market. Tell most consumers they are going to go from 100fps to 30fps and they wouldn't be exactly ok with that.
Current renders vs real time play
There are a number of factors that come to mind regarding this topic.
Detail in an image.
Take a high poly mesh like some of the game use. The further it is away from the camera the smaller the polygons become. Once a polygon is effectively the size of a pixel on screen it would be better to combine it with a near polygon to create a larger surface to represent the area and make things more efficient. (Level of Detail) So depending on how close a object is to the camera or viewer a large amount of detail is wasted. Same goes for textures placed onto the mesh.
think about a scene in RL where a female walks past she is 10 feet away. How much detail can you see or take in of the fingernails? Do you see the various ridges in her lips. Not much. The time and angle you are viewing her at is changing. depending on the direction that is going to increase or decrease the amount you can see. If she is walking toward you you see more if her angle is away from you you see less.
That isn't the only factor your mind treats moving images different from still images. It is precisely because an image is still you see or even need all that detail. Which technically you aren't getting as much of as you think and a lot is being wasted regardless.
So whats the point I am making?
Simply your brain wouldn't be able to tell the difference given current system abilities if they wanted to render to as close as they can. However, you wouldn't want to because an image that is in motion shouldn't be like a still image.
So because you don't agree with their take you resort to an ad hominem by effectively calling them elitist.
Great way to try and win an argument.
Jesus not sure you and I are thinking of the same one I am.
Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Effectively either do it my way or you are going to hell.
The point being is Jesus had a very narrow view of what was right and wrong.
A better example would be the wishy washy Methodist church which doesn't know what it believes in and won't condemn anyone else for what they believe in and simply wants to include anyone.
They Enjoy Reading them.
That doesn't really prove anything and not what you want to prove in the very least.
Does it require more to entertain a smart person? That is more of the question at hand.
The answer is a bit of a yes and no. Just because someone is smart doesn't mean they are educated and education does also play a factor.
Also it depends on the type of entertainment.
You know how some people laugh and giggle when other people use certain words. Then some people just look at them are thinking wtf is their problem or what fucking morons...
Generally the gigglers are just that morons. That or they are stoned.
There has been a lot of research on the area. Hollywood and tv industry rely on it quite a lot.
There are however other facets that also effect what a person finds entertaining beside the type of entertainment and the education and intelligence of a person. Their interests or personal and cultural views and simple willingness to explore and learn.
You also have distractions can play into it. Think of a child who just wants to rush through their home work so they can go play. Or events in films designed to carry the film along and other things.
My son finds a lot of the lectures I watch and attend boring. I on the other hand find them interesting. He's very smart but not educated to my level yet. He also hasn't found the same reason to be interested in the topics the way I have.
The point here is that not only can a subject be to low brow to entertain someone you can have the opposite and it be to heavy or other factors play a part.
Looking back at your statement there are a few reasons that could explain it.
It could be a factor of intelligence or education.
It could be they simply have an affinity for that topic.
Or they could be paying less attention do to a distraction such as they want to FAP so pay less attention to details.
Looking at posts and comments on the games doesn't lend much of anything to support either side much maybe a bit more the opposing view.
Oh my. So that is your take of it? That I took his comment as elitist simply because he didn't share my opinion? Well aren't you a sharp one! Tho, I would say that most would think it was an 'elitist' take due to stuff like;
"no one really enjoy reading them ... if he have half a brain"
"if reading some books is snobby ... well ... your are a ... well ... simpleton"
"It is obvious that you never read a book from a talented author in your life...something to give you a view of how writing is done."
"You are not aware of what real writing is"
Or my favorite;
"Read something ... there no need to drop in the deep waters with Thomas Harris or Philip K. Dick ...
start with Playboy stories ... lets not overload your brain!"
Yes! Clearly, it was simply and utterly because we disagree in our opinion that I thought of him as an elitist.
Btw, yes that was sarcasm and this showcases that you are discussing in bad faith. We both can clearly tell that he has an elitist/snobby (whatever word you wanna use) approach to the whole discussion. But maybe your own elitist standpoint is clouding your eyes.
It proves everything.
If someone enjoys something they shouldn't be called an idiot just because what they enjoy isn't 'high educational level of entertainment' or whatever else sophisticated words people who want to appear superior want to use.
Some like lectures, such as yourself, while others do not, such as your son.
Who is anyone to say that either part is wrong or stupid for liking something.
And Hell, highly educated and smart people may still find the lectures you watch boring. Why? Because people like different things. Does this make you in the wrong and stupid for enjoying lectures that smarter people find boring?
Do not get me wrong, I am not calling you stupid as I never want to directly attack anyone. But just trying to use you and Vengels own views against you.
Now, I can only use my own game as it's the one I know the most about;
"It could be a factor of intelligence or education."
In my discord, I speak to my players on a daily basis and there are people from non-education, salesmen, doctors, and more.
So this is not it.
"It could be they simply have an affinity for that topic."
My game is about mafia with some own stuff add into it. Not much to relate to.
So this is not it.
"Or they could be paying less attention due to a distraction such as they want to FAP so pay less attention to details."
Soooo... My game has literally zero sex in it... 90% of the hate for my game is due to lack of lewd.
The game has survived till this day purely on the story.
So this is not it.
You and Vengel keep reinforcing this idea that people are simply too stupid to realize what they are watching/reading is of lower status and do not have the capacity that you guys have to realize what true beauty is.
I hate to be the one who is going to burst this bubble of you guys but - no.
Entertainment does not have to be lectures and sophisticated written with wine and fancy glasses.
Sometimes you just want to lay back and watch some entertainment purely for the entertainment factor.
Be that smart stuff or dumb stuff. Neither is wrong.
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No, the problem is the lack of emotional investment from their author, and the lack of effective idea about the story.
Most games disappear because they started as "I'll talk about a guy/girl that have this and will do that". There's no effective story, just a starting point that the author pursue as long as he have ideas about it. But if you look closely, half of the finished games follow the exact same logic. It's just that their author decided that "this" will be the last update, while not effectively giving an end to their story.
But now if you look at Heavy Five or The DeLuca Family (to annoy him), among others like Ecchi Sensei (that it will never be finished, 52 weeks, at the speed of more than one year to write a week :/ ), there's a difference, the story is clearly already know. It's easy to spot it, not only by the continuity in the story, but by the linked references between the past and the future. Characters talk about things that, as player, we understand only few updates later, and act because of motive that we slowly undercover. They had a life before the story start, they have their own motive on top of interacting with the MC and, knowing already what will happen next, the author make his character anticipate it like a real person would do. Take Sloth Chan from Ecchi Sensei, there's a reason why she wear mitts, it's not just for the record, for the fun. As player, we don't know it yet, but booom313 know it and write the character according to this knowledge.
Perhaps that they'll still stay unfinished, but it will be because life is a bitch and the author is hit by it (we miss you veqvil ). When you wrote a full story, then started to "publish" it, you don't stop without a good reason ; especially when the said story found its public, whatever how small it can possibly be.
Personally, it would change nothing. Exactly like I, and many others, do for TV shows like Firefly (not that it's of exceptional quality), or for The Silmarillion, that is more a compilation of unfinished works than of effective stories.
Of course, being unfinished remove a part of the interest if you missed the train, but it change nothing about the quality.
Then you don't talk about quality, but about your own appreciation.
Since Dick came into the discussion, is The Exegesis of Philip K. Dick a pile of shit just because it's 1056 of the near to 8000 pages ? Same for The Silmarillion. Of course, it lost part of its quality due to the mandatory rewriting needed to link the parts that Tolkien effectively wrote, but those parts, that are unfinished work, are still of great quality.
You don't need the whole oeuvre to judge of its quality. Any paragraph of an effectively great book is enough to judge it as "effectively great". Any part of a painting is enough to judge to see that it's a master piece. And seeing the oeuvre in its whole can only make it greater than you initially thought, because you can now put things in perspective.
But if you need this whole before judging, then the most you can go is "above average". Simply because it's the fact to put things in perspective that give it its supposed quality. It's why, by example, Bradbury's Farhenheit 451, or Orwell's 1984 are good, but not great. Their quality come from the depicted dystopia and the feeling of reality we get while reading them, not from the writing itself that, without being bad, isn't either exceptional.
And therefore, like I said, it's a question of appreciation, not a question of quality. You judge the story, telling how much you appreciated it, not the writing itself and its potential quality.
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If you effectively looked at the posts and comments, you would know that the first lewd content in Hopes' game came after two years and seven updates. As for Nottravis' one, so far if you see it, you're in deep shit. So, you wouldn't have wrote this stupid sentence about the players just wanting to fap, because this kind of players really dislike those two games.
This also demonstrate that you haven't played them, what also make parts of your comment pure imagination.
Oh, by the way, it's also clearly not because the guy disagreed that he was called elitist, but because he used clear imaginary knowledge to try to belittle someone.
And, yes, saying "clear imaginary knowledge" isn't nice. But would it be effective smartness, that he would have argued his point, not just using two big sentences before starting to align pure platitudes. Platitudes that, must be said, globally fall flat because this person isn't aware of an elementary notion, "the context".
Being dutch (if my memory don't betray me), yeah, Hopes isn't aware that women with dark hair exist ; this being "relatively speaking", of course. He obviously know that they exist, at least because he seen them in TV and magazines, but they aren't this frequent in his country and, if he live on the east side of it, even brown hair aren't necessarily this frequent. And because of this, they aren't frequent in his game. It's not his surrounding and, because of that, probably also not his taste.
Therefore, judging his art on, among other arbitrary criteria, the lack of dark haired women, in addition to be stupid by itself, also prove that this person can only judge in regard of his own opinion and his own little world ; he isn't able to understand that there's country where dark haired women almost don't exist, thinking that what is true for him is necessarily true for everyone else. What remove all potential offensive value to what he said.
And finally, like I'm pretty sure that Hopes know better than me how unfrequent are dark haired women in his country, it then turn your own statement regarding the reason why he intervene into pure phantasmagoria. Simply because the superficiality of the critic was as obvious for him, than it was for me.
They have still volumes and arcs with plots that have climaxes and conclusions.
But Visual Novels that are story focused tend to focus on just one big arc.
If it were Episodic like I said before I have no problem with, if they can Satisfy with each Update that would be ideal.
But how many arcs have been concluded?
How many projects have even one arc concluded?
I do not judge projects by what they are not trying to be, I judge things by what they are trying to be and fail at it.
If the work is an excuse for porn content distribution, then its good if its good for a fap.
But if its trying to be a story, it needs to at least have all the structure and components as a story.
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You forgot the effective difference, the one that make it impossible to compare a story based VN with a TV series: all the behind the scene.
Firstly, and with still few exception, a TV series is wrote by a bunch of scenarists, each one taking the lead on the story or arc he came with. This while the guys behind the cameras, lighting, sound recording and post processing, plus the director, aren't always the same persons. Therefore, you can't fully judge it on a single episode ; it can either be the best one of the season, or at the opposite the worse one.
Seeing the first episode of Vinyl, by example, can't tell you much about the quality of the picture, simply because not anyone is Martin Scorcese and, whatever how hard they'll try to do like him, it will just be a try. This episode is apart and, while the other aren't necessarily bad because they aren't directed by Scorcese, they'll still not be as good.
Then at the opposite you've Visual Novels, where the story is wrote from start to stop by the same person, and the visual also done by the same person. This confer them a continuity that is absent from TV series.
There's obviously some fluctuations, rare are the people who can give 100% all the time, but they are just small variations ; the author could have been better in this part, or surpassed himself in that one, that's all. Therefore, seeing just one release is enough to tell you a lot about the quality you can expect from the game.
And so ? The quality come from the conclusion ? Then Lost, or Game of Thrones, (it depend of your own taste) are total piece of shit, right ? Bad quality series because their conclusion feel ridiculous to your own eyes...
No, what is ridiculous is to think that what you're judging at that moment, what you're talking about, is the quality. Both series are of good, when not high, quality, but they aren't really appreciated because of what part of the public see as being a really lame conclusion.
But it don't change the quality of the series, not even the quality of their last episode. The actors are as great in this episode that they were in all the other ones. The writing is as good, the picture, the sound recording, the FX, everything is of great quality, it's just the story of this episode that is lame. But the story don't do the quality, it just do the appreciation.
The best writer can still write the worst story ever. The style will still be the same, the quality will still be amazing, but the story will be nothing more than a piece of shit. Quality 100/100, appreciation 0/100.
The reason why not everyone can be a critic is precisely this difference between quality and appreciation. To be a critic, you need to be able to admit that the book/movie/whatever have qualities, even if you totally disliked it. You need to be able to say things like "the picture in this movie is one of the best I have had the occasion to see. The camera angle is always right, trying to project all the actors' emotion right in our own memory... too bad that the said actors are less expressive than a dead fish and have nothing to project excepted annoyance."
Quality isn't really a personal judgment. Anyone that take the time to effectively look at it can see the quality of a scene. You've the character that try to express a feeling, repeating the same thing in many different way, while the CGs, through the gesture, the expression of this character, show you a different feeling. You're facing the internal conflict of this character, the opposition between her desire and what is "the good thing to do". You're hearing (well reading in fact) her not trying to convince you, but trying to convince herself.
Whatever what yourself think about the situation. Whatever if, from your point of view, the conflict have no reason to exist. The quality isn't in the story, it's in the realization. Static images and wrote words achieve to express this opposition, to make it obvious for anyone who take the time to effectively look at what is in face of him. You're deprived of the tone, you're deprived of the effective hesitation in the movement, what are two major elements of understanding in real life, yet you feel it. It's quality work, dot.
And you don't need to have the full story, to have a completed story arc, to see that it's quality work. You don't wait the end of the game, the end of the arc, to suddenly realize that, five hours ago, "this scene" was really great. Players haven't waited the end of "My name is Luna", to be hit right on their empathy. They don't need to see the end of the game to feel sad, and it's not only for Luna that they feel sad, it's not were the emotional charge is.
I repeat myself, I know it, but if you need to see the end in order to judge the quality of something, then you don't talk about qualities, but about your personal appreciation. And it's something totally different that is totally unrelated with the effective quality.
Quality isn't a judgment, it's an observation. You see it, you don't judge it.
Quality don't lead to thoughts like, "I past a good moment", but to thoughts like, "I'm passing an amazing moment right now". It's something you feel when facing it, not that you notice once it's passed. Quality is what make you stop reading a book, lost in your thoughts, lost in the pleasure you just take reading this part. It was so great, that you need to catch your breath. You've been stunned and have to recover. It's what quality do, and it's obviously something that happen far before the end.
This while appreciation is was let you sad because you reach the end. You appreciated it, therefore you want it to continue. But this can come from something of bad quality, it's not the oeuvre that you want to continue, it's the story. You don't have this sadness at the end of a quality book, unless the story itself carry it, because you know that now you'll be able to read the next book from this author ; now you'll go for another amazement. The end of the book is not the end of your journey in quality, it's the step that open the next part of this journey.
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They can have their seasons that can be judge on their own(although I have no idea about Lost), that's why I said multiple arcs not just the series conclusion.
A release is far from an actual self contained arc with concluded plot threads, and it can take ages just to finish one, most don't even manage that.
A Car that doesn't Drive is not a Car no matter how beautiful the car could be when its finished.
A Great Scene that leads to nowhere does not make a Story.
I am not even expecting the car to be able to drive 10,000 km, I would be fine with 100km but the car needs to drive.
As such so is a Story needs Plot, Structure, Climax and Conclusions for at least a arc.
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And what is the arc of the season 1 of Game of Thrones exactly ? Most of the narrative arcs of the series had to wait the last season to see their conclusion.
And, as I said, a story don't make the quality. What is more than obvious on this scene, since half of the games are just a copy/past of successful stories.
Haven't you seen that those two sentences totally contradict themselves ?
What make a car beautiful, to keep your own word, it the seats, the windows, the bodywork, the dashboard, and in fact all the part that are purely optional. A car can be drove without them, it's what karts are. Therefore, you're saying that you'll judge a car according to the smallest possible part of it, and from there decide if it's a quality car or not.
And you're saying this as argumentation to explain why it's supposedly impossible to judge the quality of a game if it's not complete. It's totally ridiculous.
"The quality of a car can be seen way before the car is finished, therefore it prove that the quality of a game can not be seen before the game is totally finished". This is what your comment say...
There are big overarching arcs and there are smaller arcs.
Seasons or volumes of books tend to have their own self-contained arcs. That's why I am not even asking for much.
A car needs to drive in order to be a car, half of a car that could be beautiful when finished is still not a car.
So is a Story, if it cannot satisfy the basic requirements that make up a story then its not a story.
If you take a book and saw it in half it's not a story anymore.
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It become more and more ridiculous. You answer this to a comment that said that :
And you answer it on a discussion regarding quality of writing.
Therefore, now your argumentation is "it's quality because it's a story". What make me wonder if yourself really know what you want to say.
I am not sure what you are smoking, but the person that is not making sense is you.
And I am confident enough that other forum users will agree with me.
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Since you're relaying on that tool, just for the record: I disagree with you.