Bored with repetative game patterns

[Diconica]

Sometimes developer inventing conflict: cat VS lesbian secret society. Having lowest rating on the forum from it and start thinking about shifting to more traditional conflicts...

Cat VS lesbian
If that cat is intelligent being then that falls under man vs man
If the cat is animal it is man vs nature.
The only thing meant by man is that it is intelligent / self aware... It could be two Aliens females on a distant world in two entire different societies and social structures it would still be classified as man vs man. Example: "queen of fairies battles queen of lizards" would still be a man vs man story type. It could also however contain additional types inside it such as the difference in the cultures and values. Thus you could have two underlying stories of man vs culture the struggle were each race has issues with the other culture thus leading to the overall conflict.

If by cat you were referring to a cat society / culture.
That however would fall under man vs society

The point being they have invented anything. They just chose a really poor topic.

 

[MoolahMilk]

I think that something less mentioned is that demand dictates the type of supply. After all, the goal for any dev sadly is to make money. That's just simply the reality of life. Even those who enjoy it and do it as a hobby still aim for commercial success. And the truth is, there is a formula to making money, at least in this specific industry. Which is why you see the same tropes over and over again, because it has a proven track record. It is simply what people demand. If people demands change, the supply would too. You would start to see more innovative devs with ideas that push boundaries start to emerge.

 

[Vengel]

Oh my fucking god... I so want a The DeLuca Family and a Heavy Five tv show.

Dude ... it is obvious that you never read a book from a talented author in your life. Not even an award winning comics ... or something ... something to give you a view of how writing is done.
You are not aware of what real writing is but I see you constantly running around promoting those two examples of complete garbage presenting them as the Second coming.
No - they are just OK compared to the rest of the complete toxic waste of adult IP's ... that's all. They are naive ... idiotic ... and most of all bland !
And as art - I don't know who makes them ... but the DeLuca (very original name ... never ever used in no mob movie) dude - he is not aware that women with dark hairs exist apparently ... and as a great picture/story creator - never shot a gun in his life to know how it actually behaves ... or seen a women that does not look like a plastic mannequin ... or have been in a fight ...

... the other "artist" with the sci fi thing is really good at using generic assets ... that about sums it up for both of them.
Generic ... boring ... fake ... low quality ...
Read something ... there no need to drop in the deep waters with Thomas Harris or Philip K. Dick ...
start with Playboy stories ... lets not overload your brain!

 

[anne O'nymous]

start with Playboy stories ... lets not overload your brain!

Wouldn't, Fahrenheit 451, or The Handmaid's Tale, to only names two of the stories published in Playboy, be too much for an idiot like me ?

 

[Diconica]

I think that something less mentioned is that demand dictates the type of supply. After all, the goal for any dev sadly is to make money. That's just simply the reality of life. Even those who enjoy it and do it as a hobby still aim for commercial success. And the truth is, there is a formula to making money, at least in this specific industry. Which is why you see the same tropes over and over again, because it has a proven track record. It is simply what people demand. If people demands change, the supply would too. You would start to see more innovative devs with ideas that push boundaries start to emerge.

I tend to think most of that can be tied back to a some underlying issues. The writers have little faith in their own tastes to generate a profit and secondly most of these developers have little interest at all in creating a quality product and are simply out for the money itself.

Just because some people do it doesn't mean you should. I've noticed a lot of people have started getting sick of the issue and simply refuse to fund anything at this point be it on patreon or kickstart or any other place. I have a really liberal neighbor who thought he was really helping people get started and by doing stuff like this well he's flat out sick of it now and refuses to have anything to do with any of it now. If they can make someone like him sick of it, I can see a lot more people leaving in the future. I wouldn't use me as much of a measure in this. I was a bit iffy to start with and only would part take in something I thought was going fairly ok to start with. But I dropped out after the last few projects turned in direction I had ZERO fucking interest and other issues as well.

I think a number of things are going to need to change if this business model is going to keep drawing the money it currently does.
First, the buyers(patrons) need to get smarter and not fund anything that doesn't have a clear goal and path laid out before hand.
It might be good if patreon actually starts requiring a development road map. What a project will and won't have and hold the developer with in some reasonable bounds to it or force them to refund people the developer lied to to get funds. If they refuse to refund the people they lied to cancel the accounts and disperse the funds that are still in the account back to the patrons.

If it doesn't change I suspect well see some legal issues surrounding consumer affairs, and other federal and state legal matters possibly a number of class action lawsuits. If that happens you could see democrats wanting to impose new regulations on that form of funding.

I just hope people in this community decide to fix it before shit gets really messy.

As much as people like to think of patreon being like the old patronage were someone would support writers to create whatever they felt like (in most cases didn't exist that way) it sure isn't that way today.
Consider this. content creators place claims as to what they are creating on their page before hand to entice people to support them. Then people select based on that what projects they want to support and provide funds. That's enough to meet contract law as a written contract and someone going back on their claim.

Imagine you go to a car dealer online they say they have a car for you let you pick it out you pay for it and then you go to pick it up and they have a different car for you some features have been left off others you don't want have been added. Well that's effectively what is going on with patreon every time these morons decided to give in and just do what a bunch of fans want.
It technically can be classified as either false advertising or bait and switch tactics and probably a few others. Many US states have laws regarding those issues its also a violation of Federal law under the Lanham act. Yes, the developers patreon page itself can be considered a form of commercial advertising. Any advertising of it on twitter or other sites as well can be.

We damn sure don't want some states or the federal government deciding they need to protect consumers.

 

[DuniX]

And the truth is, there is a formula to making money, at least in this specific industry.

If people demands change, the supply would too.

That's far from the truth, there have been plenty of examples that break from the formula with great success, ...that were ruined by the developers, like breeding season and the like.

The current climate is just about what is the easiest and least creative thing they can do.

Just because some people do it doesn't mean you should. I've noticed a lot of people have started getting sick of the issue and simply refuse to fund anything at this point be it on patreon or kickstart or any other place. I have a really liberal neighbor who thought he was really helping people get started and by doing stuff like this well he's flat out sick of it now and refuses to have anything to do with any of it now. If they can make someone like him sick of it, I can see a lot more people leaving in the future. I wouldn't use me as much of a measure in this. I was a bit iffy to start with and only would part take in something I thought was going fairly ok to start with. But I dropped out after the last few projects turned in direction I had ZERO fucking interest and other issues as well.

You haven't discovered any big mystery here, good judgement on the evaluation of projects is how things worked from the start.
The people who weren't overly excited and naïve understood this things from the start.
Nor is it the end of the world, the apocalypse is coming, Woe is Me, Patreon is doomed, the governments will ruin it.
Good Projects that are interesting and engages the market's desires will naturally be funded, those that don't
will naturally wane.
And like with anything there will be Trends, one success leads to more followers as the markets desire is satisfied and so on and so on.
Personally the Current Trend I wish was over sooner. I prefer games with actual gameplay like you occasionally find in JP Games. And once developers figure out they can mix HS or Daz renders with gameplay that is just as cheap to make as VNs that might be a new trend.

 

[Diconica]

That's far from the truth, there have been plenty of examples that break from the formula with great success, ...that were ruined by the developers, like breeding season and the like.

The current climate is just about what is the easiest and least creative thing they can do.


You haven't discovered any big mystery here, good judgement on the evaluation of projects is how things worked from the start.
The people who weren't overly excited and naïve understood this things from the start.
Nor is it the end of the world, the apocalypse is coming, Woe is Me, Patreon is doomed, the governments will ruin it.
Good Projects that are interesting and engages the market's desires will naturally be funded, those that don't
will naturally wane.
And like with anything there will be Trends, one success leads to more followers as the markets desire is satisfied and so on and so on.
Personally the Current Trend I wish was over sooner. I prefer games with actual gameplay like you occasionally find in JP Games. And once developers figure out they can mix HS or Daz renders with gameplay that is just as cheap to make as VNs that might be a new trend.

I wasn't intending to sound like a doomsayer or some crap.
More just saying I hope people wise up before we do have another government intervention.
This falls under the same jurisdiction of the people who took down backpage, forced Criagslist to change and took down dozen of other sites. All it takes is a few politicians trying to make a name for themselves that they protect the people to go over board.

I was looking at the size of some of the VNs recently. Then worked out what it would take to make nearly the same quality image with my engine at home and the scenes and so on. I came to a conclusion give the few scenes and characters some of them had the actual data to have them in an environment they could move and interact in actual 3D would take a fraction of the space the images were taking up. In some cases the image quality would actually be improved. Take the adventures of Willy D has a small fraction of the content of GTA V or guildwars 2 online. Yet it uses nearly 20% of the disk space. In the end I figured it would take less space to make that game in actual 3D and have better image quality. That's just one example there are plenty of other games like that as well.

I would love to see a game where characters if nothing else move around like in path of exiles rather than this crapy as RPGM garbage.

 

[Winterfire]

I was looking at the size of some of the VNs recently. Then worked out what it would take to make nearly the same quality image with my engine at home and the scenes and so on. I came to a conclusion give the few scenes and characters some of them had the actual data to have them in an environment they could move and interact in actual 3D would take a fraction of the space the images were taking up. In some cases the image quality would actually be improved. Take the adventures of Willy D has a small fraction of the content of GTA V or guildwars 2 online. Yet it uses nearly 20% of the disk space. In the end I figured it would take less space to make that game in actual 3D and have better image quality. That's just one example there are plenty of other games like that as well.

That is not really how it works x).

First of all, the same game in real time 3D would not look as good.
Assuming you would get a different license for everything to be able to use them in a 3D environment (So not ren'py), the quality would be drastically different than a rendered image.

As for the disk space, it is like saying a screenshot of the old super mario is bigger in size than the game itself. It sounds crazy until you learn why.
3D Games re-use their resources a lot, it is normal to... Whereas each render is unique.
Ren'Py is also horrible when it comes to space management since it lacks any form of compression, the developer has to rely on external tools and keep a second copy of the source, with a very good chance to break the game in doing so.
The same game remade in another engine would not have the same size, so that is also an unfair comparison.

-edit-
I also forgot to mention the most obvious thing: Real time 3D, other than looking worse, will also require a very good computer compared to the requirements to run Ren'Py games.

 

[HopesGaming]

Ah, this thread again.
With some few people who feel they're superior to the rest and only they have been born with the talent to distinguish between what is good and what is bad.

Yes, Vengel and the standard group of same people that likes these kinds of posts, it's you I am talking about.
Attacking someone with the only reason being liking something you yourself dislike. Going as far as saying his brain will overload with writings that you, your highness, deem worthy of a read. It's like watching a parody of an extremely snobby fictional character. "there no need to drop in the deep waters with Thomas Harris or Philip K. Dick ..."
No real human speaks like that! Dafuq.

Like Jesus, you people need to get down from your high horses and start thinking objectively and uses a bigger perspective. If you keep viewing the world in your own narrow view you will never be able to understand anything basic nor be able to add to a constructive discussion.

There is a reason why people like Heavy Five and other story-driven games that are popular.
And it's not because they are born in 'poverty' and lack the 'superior views that you guys do.
It's really simple actually. And this fact will blow your minds.

They enjoy reading them.

And isn't that the core essence of story writing? The main objective for any author?
Writing shouldn't be about who makes the most sophisticated sentences but who brings the most enjoyment to their readers.

 

[Lerd0]

Like Jesus, you people need to get down from your high horses and start thinking objectively and uses a bigger perspective. If you keep viewing the world in your own narrow view you will never be able to understand anything basic nor be able to add to a constructive discussion.

Ain't u doing the same shit though......or is it k when u do it...
....don't be calling out people for shitflinging and then smear ur shit all over the place....

 

[HopesGaming]

Ain't u doing the same shit though......or is it k when u do it...
....don't be calling out people for shitflinging and then smear ur shit all over the place....

If you think what I said is the same then you need to explain why it's the same instead of just saying it's the same.
....if u be calling out people for wrongdoings without saying their wrongs you may as well smear ur own shit all over yourself and run around the village with raised arms....

 

[MoolahMilk]

I tend to think most of that can be tied back to a some underlying issues. The writers have little faith in their own tastes to generate a profit and secondly most of these developers have little interest at all in creating a quality product and are simply out for the money itself.

Just because some people do it doesn't mean you should. I've noticed a lot of people have started getting sick of the issue and simply refuse to fund anything at this point be it on patreon or kickstart or any other place. I have a really liberal neighbor who thought he was really helping people get started and by doing stuff like this well he's flat out sick of it now and refuses to have anything to do with any of it now. If they can make someone like him sick of it, I can see a lot more people leaving in the future. I wouldn't use me as much of a measure in this. I was a bit iffy to start with and only would part take in something I thought was going fairly ok to start with. But I dropped out after the last few projects turned in direction I had ZERO fucking interest and other issues as well.

I think a number of things are going to need to change if this business model is going to keep drawing the money it currently does.
First, the buyers(patrons) need to get smarter and not fund anything that doesn't have a clear goal and path laid out before hand.
It might be good if patreon actually starts requiring a development road map. What a project will and won't have and hold the developer with in some reasonable bounds to it or force them to refund people the developer lied to to get funds. If they refuse to refund the people they lied to cancel the accounts and disperse the funds that are still in the account back to the patrons.

If it doesn't change I suspect well see some legal issues surrounding consumer affairs, and other federal and state legal matters possibly a number of class action lawsuits. If that happens you could see democrats wanting to impose new regulations on that form of funding.

I just hope people in this community decide to fix it before shit gets really messy.

As much as people like to think of patreon being like the old patronage were someone would support writers to create whatever they felt like (in most cases didn't exist that way) it sure isn't that way today.
Consider this. content creators place claims as to what they are creating on their page before hand to entice people to support them. Then people select based on that what projects they want to support and provide funds. That's enough to meet contract law as a written contract and someone going back on their claim.

Imagine you go to a car dealer online they say they have a car for you let you pick it out you pay for it and then you go to pick it up and they have a different car for you some features have been left off others you don't want have been added. Well that's effectively what is going on with patreon every time these morons decided to give in and just do what a bunch of fans want.
It technically can be classified as either false advertising or bait and switch tactics and probably a few others. Many US states have laws regarding those issues its also a violation of Federal law under the Lanham act. Yes, the developers patreon page itself can be considered a form of commercial advertising. Any advertising of it on twitter or other sites as well can be.

We damn sure don't want some states or the federal government deciding they need to protect consumers.

I don't know man. I think money is the best form of democracy. It's harder to get someones money than it is to get someones vote. So if they're voting with their money, maybe they actually like these games. The model is actually working that's why u see more and more games pop up. If it doesn't work no one would make games. I actually think our niche industry is getting bigger and booming compared to what it was few years back. Look at the number of games. And in my personal view the quality is actually going up with higher standards. You can't really get away with a half assed demo now.

Just because you don't like a particular game doesn't mean there's no demand for it.

 

[Lerd0]

If you think what I said is the same then you need to explain why it's the same instead of just saying it's the same.
....if u be calling out people for wrongdoings without saying their wrongs you may as well smear ur own shit all over yourself and run around the village with raised arms....

Bruh don't be kink shaming me i love to streak down the village while covered in shit....thanks for making fun of my writing style...it's not like my signature says "sorry for the bad english"...
....what did u say beside calling out people for expressing their opinions or how they present them...
...i get u don't like them but why be a cunt about it?

 

[HopesGaming]

Bruh don't be kink shaming me i love to streak down the village while covered in shit....thanks for making fun of my writing style...it's not like my signature says "sorry for the bad english"...
....what did u say beside calling out people for expressing their opinions or how they present them...
...i get u don't like them but why be a cunt about it?

It's only a kink shame if I said it's a bad thing
Don't play the bad English card with me. I am not a native myself and I know that writing "u" instead of "you" is not due to being bad at English but a choice of style. A style you are free to do if you wish but don't act like it's a weakness of yours that I am exploiting.

People can express their opinions as they wish. I don't get what you mean.
Also the thing about being a cunt. Sorry if you took it that way. I just tend to write back in the same style and mannerisms that I receive.

You still have to explain what you meant in your first posts. I'm still trying to figure out your whole comment about me smearing all my shit. Unless that also just was a kink.

 

[Lerd0]

It's only a kink shame if I said it's a bad thing
Don't play the bad English card with me. I am not a native myself and I know that writing "u" instead of "you" is not due to being bad at English but a choice of style. A style you are free to do if you wish but don't act like it's a weakness of yours that I am exploiting.

People can express their opinions as they wish. I don't get what you mean.
Also the thing about being a cunt. Sorry if you took it that way. I just tend to write back in the same style and mannerisms that I receive.

You still have to explain what you meant in your first posts. I'm still trying to figure out your whole comment about me smearing all my shit. Unless that also just was a kink.

Damn u know me better than myself that's so cool. Don't assume ur experiences are the same as mine.
U tend to write back in the same style and mannerisms that u receive but u weren't replying to anyone u just strolled in and called people out, last time u visited this thread was in july last year.
The part about my comment was that u were approaching the discussion in a unproductive way, none of them are going to change their minds from ur comment, that's what i meant if u wanted to accomplish anything u were going about it the wrong way...
....k we good. If not maybe we should move this somewhere else...

 

[Vengel]

Ah, this thread again.
With some few people who feel they're superior to the rest and only they have been born with the talent to distinguish between what is good and what is bad.

Yes, Vengel and the standard group of same people that likes these kinds of posts, it's you I am talking about.
Attacking someone with the only reason being liking something you yourself dislike. Going as far as saying his brain will overload with writings that you, your highness, deem worthy of a read. It's like watching a parody of an extremely snobby fictional character. "there no need to drop in the deep waters with Thomas Harris or Philip K. Dick ..."
No real human speaks like that! Dafuq.

Like Jesus, you people need to get down from your high horses and start thinking objectively and uses a bigger perspective. If you keep viewing the world in your own narrow view you will never be able to understand anything basic nor be able to add to a constructive discussion.

There is a reason why people like Heavy Five and other story-driven games that are popular.
And it's not because they are born in 'poverty' and lack the 'superior views that you guys do.
It's really simple actually. And this fact will blow your minds.

They enjoy reading them.

And isn't that the core essence of story writing? The main objective for any author?
Writing shouldn't be about who makes the most sophisticated sentences but who brings the most enjoyment to their readers.

Here's the thing about today social environment ...
No one can take criticism and everyone should tap the other on the back for every single fucking bullshit thing ... and in the same time the same idiots run around and repeat the same irritating bullshit over and over again despite the facts showing otherwise. The west does not want competitive culture ... now they have cancel culture witch show here too ... and we all supposed to hold hands and "cumbaya" forward just because you or anyone else is really offended by something and someone!
Well fuck that ... and NO - no one really enjoy reading them ... if he have half a brain. And they are not THAT popular as you made them to be + my point was not on popularity at all ...
I don't know how standard is my group but in that direction I can simply say > your are a representative of the same old standard group of people unable to view other perspective and we must all listen to all of your made up bullshit!
And buddy ... if reading some books is snobby ... well ... your are a ... well ... simpleton!
Go figure ...

 

[HopesGaming]

Damn u know me better than myself that's so cool. Don't assume ur experiences are the same as mine.
U tend to write back in the same style and mannerisms that u receive but u weren't replying to anyone u just strolled in and called people out, last time u visited this thread was in july last year.
The part about my comment was that u were approaching the discussion in a unproductive way, none of them are going to change their minds from ur comment, that's what i meant if u wanted to accomplish anything u were going about it the wrong way...
....k we good. If not maybe we should move this somewhere else...

I made one sentence where I wrote 'u' instead of 'you' and now you are going on a tangent. But I still stick with what I said. It's not about bad English but more a prefered style. I just wrote in your style to reply in the same manner as you did.

Here's the thing about today social environment ...
No one can take criticism and everyone should tap the other on the back for every single fucking bullshit thing ... and in the same time the same idiots run around and repeat the same irritating bullshit over and over again despite the facts showing otherwise. The west does not want competitive culture ... now they have cancel culture witch show here too ... and we all supposed to hold hands and "cumbaya" forward just because you or anyone else is really offended by something and someone!
Well fuck that ... and NO - no one really enjoy reading them ... if he have half a brain. And they are not THAT popular as you made them to be + my point was not on popularity at all ...
I don't know how standard is my group but in that direction I can simply say > your are a representative of the same old standard group of people unable to view other perspective and we must all listen to all of your made up bullshit!
And buddy ... if reading some books is snobby ... well ... your are a ... well ... simpleton!
Go figure ...

Eh? What are you on about? Cancel culture? Offended?
Please don't add your own fantasies to this. No one is trying to cancel anything nor is it about being offended or not.
Stop with these political silliness. We're simply having a discussion in a discussion forum.

Also, you do realise you are talking about not taking criticism after someone criticised your view?

My opinion is that you neglect other peoples enjoyment of something because it does not fit your sophisticated lifestyle.
The whole idea that some people look down upon others because they enjoy something they don't - that is where my opinion differs from you and why my comments exist.
"no one really enjoy reading them ... if he have half a brain"
You have a superiority complex.

"if reading some books is snobby ... well ... your are a ... well ... simpleton!"
I love books. I read a shit ton. Reading books isn't snobby, but acting like books is the only thing that can be enjoyed is stupid imo.

This boils down to two viewpoints.
1. Someone who believes his view is the superior view and every other who enjoys what he does not, does not have a brain. Or only half
2. People can enjoy whatever they want. Enjoyment does not come from sophisticated writing nor fancy words but the ability to make the reader engaged in the story and make them invested emotionally.

I say get down from your high horse because I heavily disagree with 1 and you tell me people be stupid so no, as you disagree with 2.

You in 1 and I am in 2.
Simple as that.

 

[Lerd0]

I made one sentence where I wrote 'u' instead of 'you' and now you are going on a tangent. But I still stick with what I said. It's not about bad English but more a prefered style. I just wrote in your style to reply in the same manner as you did.

How am i going off on a tangent, when i responded to ur points....
.....i don't even disagree with u, never interacted with u before, don't get why we can't have a nice conversation...i'm not against u or in support of u...just thought u approached this thread the wrong way....could i have voiced it better yeah probably.

 

[HopesGaming]

How am i going off on a tangent, when i responded to ur points....
.....i don't even disagree with u, never interacted with u before, don't get why we can't have a nice conversation...i'm not against u or in support of u...just thought u approached this thread the wrong way....could i have voiced it better yeah probably.

Come on now. You said, "Aren't you doing the same shit" and told me not to smear my shit due to that.
I replied that I can't see how I am doing that. I also said I am sorry if I sounded like a 'cunt' as I don't want to sound like I was attacking you. Was just a little jab in the same style as you wrote.

 

[Lerd0]

Come on now. You said, "Aren't you doing the same shit" and told me not to smear my shit due to that.
I replied that I can't see how I am doing that. I also said I am sorry if I sounded like a 'cunt' as I don't want to sound like I was attacking you. Was just a little jab in the same style as you wrote.

We cool i admit i dropkicked into the discussion when i shouldn't....but i didn't tell u to smear shit i tried to say that the way u were talking was like smearing shit on the discussion...my bad if it sounded like an insult...prob gonna leave cuz the others dudes here make less sense than me...peace.