VN Ren'Py Champions of Liberty Institute of Training [v0.83] [yahotzp]

[TundraLupus]

It is an incontrovertible fact that enabling multiple parallel paths leads to a exponential divergence in amount of work required to service all of the differing paths. The consequence of this explosion is that the dev will find it increasingly difficult to produce updates, and a very typical result on this site is that the 'un-finish-able games' are sadly abandoned. One satisfactory solution is for a prospective dev to write a complete skeleton of the story, and if necessary modify it until they are satisfied that they can actually deliver the proposed story. For example, if they estimate that the story requires roughly x words in total, y images in total, and z lines of code in total; i.e. they know at the outset roughly what the deliverables are and could easily sketch out a critical path for its development during a given timescale.

Was this a continuation of your previous post or a response to mine? Because you didn't answer my questions.

Also, what paths have you identified so far that makes you think that there is an unmanageable number of them?

And, you do understand that most of these are passion projects and not companies trying to make something right? that is why most are on itch.io or Patreon where you support if you want or can, and not on Kickstarter os steam, although some are like being a DIK, so they have no need of doing the planing, these are creative people using the game development as an outlet to their creativity, so they don't really need to do all of the dispassionate management, actually to some devs that would make them not want to create at all, but I do understand what you mean and yeah, some games would become more tangible if the dev did that, but also could just never get out of the paper because the passion is gone.

Edit: Also, also, as someone that participated in a game jam and until recently was in college for game development normally you start with a big idea, and as you progress closer to the deadline you try to squeeze out the minimum playable version, meaning, you see what you are able to deliver and focus on that instead of the full idea.

 

[HarveyD]

Also, what paths have you identified so far that makes you think that there is an unmanageable number of them?

The fact that each classmate has different powers means there will be a large number of paths/variables. Especially if each girl gets their own route. That will increase work load. Will it actually become unmanageable? Who knows.

 

[andrew david irving]

Sorry, but yes I did answer the main point. Basically if the dev invokes many paths then they are not likely to be able to finish the game. From a practical point of view what I am saying is about project management - making a game with limited resources within a reasonable time in this case. The creative concept, or idea as you put is, is only the start; you have to get from the idea to a product - the game - and that requires thought, preparation and planning and if necessary pruning back. It has nothing to do with team management, but has everything to do with resource management - an individual at the smallest scale. Try going through the game so far and counting how many binary and multiple choices the player is offered, and then work out the total number of different paths that are possible to follow (sketch each path out as the branches of a tree or flowchart may help visualise the problem), with the dev having to generate renders and words for each and every different path ... Its already close to an unmanageable explosion imho - that's why I made my comment above, not to complain but to try and help the dev to steer a viable course to achieve their goals.

 

[TundraLupus]

Sorry, but yes I did answer the main point. Basically if the dev invokes many paths then they are not likely to be able to finish the game. From a practical point of view what I am saying is about project management - making a game with limited resources within a reasonable time in this case. The creative concept, or idea as you put is, is only the start; you have to get from the idea to a product - the game - and that requires thought, preparation and planning and if necessary pruning back. It has nothing to do with team management, but has everything to do with resource management - an individual at the smallest scale. Try going through the game so far and counting how many binary and multiple choices the player is offered, and then work out the total number of different paths that are possible to follow (sketch each path out as the branches of a tree or flowchart may help visualise the problem), with the dev having to generate renders and words for each and every different path ... Its already close to an unmanageable explosion imho - that's why I made my comment above, not to complain but to try and help the dev to steer a viable course to achieve their goals.

Okay two things, just so it doesn't become to difficult in future discussions when answering to another person i urge you to use the reply button on the lower right corner of each said comment, that way there is no danger of your response being lost since the person will receive a notification that you answered.

Point two, and yes I have been through the game files, I always do with ren'py games out of curiosity and to see what variables the game has, and so far, this one is quite manageable, since most characters have three attributes, and the powers are on booleans, so it isn't really hard to make something there, but as I said, I understand you resource management point, I never talked about team management, what i was talking about though is that for some people doing the whole managment thing might take their will do something away, like for exemple, you write the skeleton of the story, you write the basic code, and you test some renders and mark the time, by the point you actually start working on the game all of those things might have burned you out, or desmotivated you, as i said before i see you point, and yes it can work for some people, but for others it might not, but my point through all of this was just for the point to be clarified so that whoever reads the comment can understand what you meant, as I hadn't at first, i'm all for constructive critsims.

The fact that each classmate has different powers means there will be a large number of paths/variables. Especially if each girl gets their own route. That will increase work load. Will it actually become unmanageable? Who knows.

I see what you mean, indeed it would, but that is assuming that each girl is more than a hookup, or will be available in the open relationship route, or cheating route, or break up the route. it might be that some don't want anything serious, some want you only to themselves, some are not okay with cheating and some are only okay to sleep with you if your other partner is, that is indeed many variables but I believe it is manageable and would make each path a little easier to write, or in the other direction it could all be binary so we only have one path and decide if will fuck person A or not, but I don't see this game going that direction

 

[andrew david irving]

Okay two things, just so it doesn't become to difficult in future discussions when answering to another person i urge you to use the reply button on the lower right corner of each said comment, that way there is no danger of your response being lost since the person will receive a notification that you answered.

Point two, and yes I have been through the game files, I always do with ren'py games out of curiosity and to see what variables the game has, and so far, this one is quite manageable, since most characters have three attributes, and the powers are on booleans, so it isn't really hard to make something there, but as I said, I understand you resource management point, I never talked about team management, what i was talking about though is that for some people doing the whole managment thing might take their will do something away, like for exemple, you write the skeleton of the story, you write the basic code, and you test some renders and mark the time, by the point you actually start working on the game all of those things might have burned you out, or desmotivated you, as i said before i see you point, and yes it can work for some people, but for others it might not, but my point through all of this was just for the point to be clarified so that whoever reads the comment can understand what you meant, as I hadn't at first, i'm all for constructive critsims.



I see what you mean, indeed it would, but that is assuming that each girl is more than a hookup, or will be available in the open relationship route, or cheating route, or break up the route. it might be that some don't want anything serious, some want you only to themselves, some are not okay with cheating and some are only okay to sleep with you if your other partner is, that is indeed many variables but I believe it is manageable and would make each path a little easier to write, or in the other direction it could all be binary so we only have one path and decide if will fuck person A or not, but I don't see this game going that direction

Just for you I will 'press the red button'. Seriously I believe that there is no real divergence between what we are advocating regarding paths in game development. I did note that you are concentrating on the potential romantic pathways which we all agree is a big enough problem, but there are other things to consider, for examples the powers that may be claimed permanently by the mc (or other characters if I correctly understand passing comments in the most recent update) ... just consider how many different renders of the same scene are required to include all variants or power usage choice, say in a fighting action scene .... Imho the dev needs to think about what resources are required, for sure coalescing everything so that the mc always has all powers one obvious solution...

 

[TundraLupus]

Just for you I will 'press the red button'. Seriously I believe that there is no real divergence between what we are advocating regarding paths in game development. I did note that you are concentrating on the potential romantic pathways which we all agree is a big enough problem, but there are other things to consider, for examples the powers that may be claimed permanently by the mc (or other characters if I correctly understand passing comments in the most recent update) ... just consider how many different renders of the same scene are required to include all variants or power usage choice, say in a fighting action scene .... Imho the dev needs to think about what resources are required, for sure coalescing everything so that the mc always has all powers one obvious solution...

I just assumed the dev would either make the character use the best power for the situation like the character did in the sparing match in case you use Robbie's powers, or that in case of not having such powers a stat check would decide, for example: if superstrength == true: this happens, if fighting == 50: this happens, else: game over, or something like that, so you have 2 different paths, and the game over screen can be a quick text saying how you died or something.

 

[Avaron1974]

Maybe a rewrite is on the cards...

Or just let the dev do his job.

Pretty sure he knows what he's doing with his game more than you do.

Considering this is their second game with multiple branching paths i'll trust them. No rewrite is needed.

 

[Cab-boe]

Mega link down, Filesfm version not launching but that could be a corrupted download I guess. Trying NOPY.

Edit: looks like it was an issue with using an absurdly long directory nest, filesfm should be fine.

 

[yahotzp]

So far there is only one big permanent branch when you pick to going to the library or going to the art studio. They are both side stories and determine which exclusive character you want to pursue. I don't see the multiple branches being a major obstacle down the road and some of them will tie in together later. I do have most of the content mapped out already.

I am also not that worried about how long it takes to complete the game. This is just something I do on the side for fun, and I really appreciate the people who support me on Patreon and I try to push out regular updates whenever I can. I would rather finish this game than jump to another project.

 

[Avaron1974]

I loved VULVA and this is just as enjoyable. I do like how it carried on and thought Amy and Ling being the canon couple was a nice touch.

The only problem I have is I think Meg is a great character and they do make a really nice couple but there are lots of others that could also make a nice couple with Emma, say Robbie for instance.

That being said i'm really interested to see where the Anya/Lisa relationship goes. Even more so now, Jolt had the best intro.

One part unintentionally made me laugh and that was when Chow asked who the best hero was and it's like any option other than Lotus was looking her in the eye and saying "not you".

 

[TundraLupus]

So far there is only one big permanent branch when you pick to going to the library or going to the art studio. They are both side stories and determine which exclusive character you want to pursue. I don't see the multiple branches being a major obstacle down the road and some of them will tie in together later. I do have most of the content mapped out already.

I am also not that worried about how long it takes to complete the game. This is just something I do on the side for fun, and I really appreciate the people who support me on Patreon and I try to push out regular updates whenever I can. I would rather finish this game than jump to another project.

About the Library/Studio thing, basically,

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probably won't change my choice since Emma was invited to the studio twice and not to the library

 

[the X hunter]

one thing I didn't see coming Amy's donations to let her daughter (Emma) in school.

 

[TundraLupus]

one thing I didn't see coming Amy's donations to let her daughter (Emma) in school.

Yeah, that was interesting, and actually so well done that I got angry, I just thought it was a little strange how excited the Mc was in the suit proving because I would not recover that fast, from thinking, no, knowing that I wasn't good enough to be there.

 

[yahotzp]

About the Library/Studio thing, basically,

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probably won't change my choice since Emma was invited to the studio twice and not to the library

Without spoiling too much

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[yahotzp]

Yeah, that was interesting, and actually so well done that I got angry, I just thought it was a little strange how excited the Mc was in the suit proving because I would not recover that fast, from thinking, no, knowing that I wasn't good enough to be there.

I actually thought the same thing and added a couple of extra lines in there for the next update. So Emma is looking at it as a chance to prove her worth.

 

[TundraLupus]

Without spoiling too much

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Okay, thanks, now the decision is a little more difficult since again, we are not explicitly invited to the library but are for the studio, as I said, twice, it makes the studio seem like the place you should go, maybe I'll make 2 playthroughs.

 

[the X hunter]

Yahotzp you left Emma's age.

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

File no longer available when I tried to download through Mega.

 

[J1215]

I liked the update of the game! The game is great!
I also liked that now can read characteristics of characters, skills and relationships!

 

[the X hunter]

one thing I noticed that in VULVA there are short animations unlike CLIT, will be there short animations in future updates?