VN Ren'Py Corporate Culture [v0.6] [sqwl]

[redraw]

Elsa is one of the most fascinating characters I've seen in any of these games.

She is clouded in uncertainty, constantly simmering with a sense of danger, and honestly surprising in some of her reactions. Her unexpected deferments to Ed in very specific scenes only fuel the curiosity further.

I'm actually quite mixed as to whether I would even like to see them develop as anything more than good friends and mutual allies.

If one can look past the reflexive assessments of her in terms of sexual unavailability, she, so far, has gone out of her way to help Edward. Possibly even more often than the reverse. If Friend Cards were actually more than a feverish assertion of people attempting to covertly leverage personal efforts for ulterior designs, she would have no balance due.

That mostly depends on how things shake out, but it has yet been shaping up as a somewhat decent litmus test on one's own perception of women and their interrelationships with them.

 

[jufot]

Honestly, your whole post is as if you've read my mind!

I'm actually quite mixed as to whether I would even like to see them develop as anything more than good friends and mutual allies.

On one hand, MC is the player's proxy and I selfishly want to see Elsa eventually become a love interest. On the other, I have serious doubts about its viability within the story.

[...] she, so far, has gone out of her way to help Edward. Possibly even more often than the reverse.

Couldn't agree more.

If Friend Cards were actually more than a feverish assertion of people attempting to covertly leverage personal efforts for ulterior designs, she would have no balance due.

Very well said. Edward might have lent the odd helping hand to Elsa here and there, but her contributions to his life and growth - both personal and professional - are immense. Sure, they both have ulterior motives for the relationship, but hers are obviously mercenary. His motivations, however, reek of covert sexual expectations and rampant misogyny.

That mostly depends on how things shake out, but it has yet been shaping up as a somewhat decent litmus test on one's own perception of women and their interrelationships with them.

That's pretty much the theme and eventual lesson of this story, I think.

 

[Canto Forte]

Well .. see .. .Edward had nothing to do with her,
this is the thing, she comes to him with the intent to use him.

Ever wondered why she got higher than edward even though she is thicker and
is using guys she sucked off?

Because Edward is spot on in seeing her for what she is.

For one, edward, had he been true to his career, would see Elsa is a creep skank trying to seduce him.
Any of the other boys do not come near her with anything other than sex,
because she is not projecting anything other than the same resentment for boys,
toe ot toe with what ed feels for women.

Why?
Because just like ed, who feels used by the girls he tried to date,
she only got stuff outta the guys she sucked off.

Where?
Well .. she can hang in exclusive clubs where her corporate bosses go to unwind.

For a man eater who gives blowjobs to guys to get ahead in life,
Elsa has become stagnant.
All those years of sucking to get something ended with her calling ed.

She must have sucked that many that she either could not get anything more out of them,
or all the guys she sucked off now know her for a hoe and are done finding her a novelty.

Such a fresh take as Ed takes Elsa for a good person, taking her advice and giving in to her machinations,
even though he profiled her as a predator and a person cutthroat
only doing anything for advancing without actual work or skill input.

We will see where this goes, because it is either Elsa, Alice or his friends trying to actually
pick up the pieces in his nonexistent / resentful social life that are hindering his breakthrough.

 

[redraw]

The preoccupation with Elsa giving blowjobs is definitely a point for self-reflection. Is there some scene that suggests this to be the case?

I went back to the jail pickup scene just now, and I don't think it is quite saying what you've taken away from it. I think that's the Edward rut -- and interestingly Elsa says something to identify it exactly as such, as though the author explicitly intended and anticipated that rut.

And I'm not unsympathetic to that perceptual rut, nor do I think is the author. To me this story reads as a very personal experience and evolution out of it. I had to work pretty hard for years to get out of it myself. And it never did any good.

To be clear, Elsa has her own very evident, very real flaws, almost certainly inspired by personal traumas she has yet to overcome. I'm not at all suggesting she is saintly, but I'd say she is no more or less morally corrupt than is Ed -- only in different ways.

 

[Canto Forte]

Elsa is not seeing MC as anything other than a pet for ther project of corporate domination.
Whatever she is doing to him, it is turning ed into a target for his female boss.
Elsa is right now riding MC hard and all of her ”gifts” run intricate plots into her agenda.

MC release is the neighbor and whenever facing Elsa or Alice MC relapses to his deprecating victimizing own doubts and frustrations. They are not doing him any favors and are actively hindering his goals - implementing the novelty ideas he got while reading self empowering techniques of overcoming his social anxiety and commitment horror.

 

[redraw]

I grabbed the text for some evaluation.

Bit of a deep dive ..


Edward "Why didn't you call your boyfriend?"

Elsa "He's out of the country."

To be sure, I suspect there isn't actually a boyfriend. I think that's something she says as a layer of defense against guys trying to fuck her. I don't recall ever seeing any actual evidence other than her statements.

Edward "Oh, okay. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to help you and all that."

Edward "But why did you call me? I doubt that I’m the only guy in your phone besides your boyfriend."

Elsa "I...You're right. But those other guys... they might have asked for something in return."

Edward "What do you mean?"

Elsa "They would have thought that I might want… a closer relationship with them because when I needed help, I called them and not someone else."

Elsa isn't suggesting that she normally exchanges blowjobs for favors, she's saying she anticipates it, and is explicitly trying to avoid it. That is likely because her life involves many dudes constantly looking for any given opportunity to fuck her, as it does for many women.

Elsa "And then they would have asked me to go with them somewhere, and it would've been hard to refuse because they helped me. I don't need this."

Edward "And I am an asexual blob to you, so you thought it'd be safe to call me."

And Edward's immediate reaction, because of his own anxieties, is to reflexively nurse his own anxiety of sexual nonviability. He might have taken away the evidence that Elsa trusts him, that she has confidence in him -- but he is preoccupied with his personal demons.

Elsa "Ughhh no, it's not like that..."

Edward makes a relatively small choice here whether to continue nursing that grievance, or to put it aside for a moment and hear what she is actually saying.

[...]

Elsa "You... I... Remember those old fairy tales about princesses in lonely towers and knights in shining armour who try to save them?"

Edward "Sure. So I'm your knight in shining armour?"

Elsa "No, you're a princess. Sweet, naive and innocent. Sitting in a lonely tower and thinking that someday someone will come and save you from your misery."

Edward "I'm no..."

This could be the essential thesis of the whole story, right here in a couple of statements.

Elsa brings up the classic trope and Edward immediately demonstrates the influence of this trope on him, and how it clouds his perception of even his own circumstances. As many of us have, he internalized the trope, and imagines he must be the knight, and that his route to romantic fulfilment is through valorous deeds.

The deeds get you the princess, and the princess gives you the sex. That's the trope.

But as Elsa initially identifies, it is a fairy tail. It's not real. And anticipating sex in exchange for valorous deeds isn't actually valorous. Not dissimilarly to how expecting sex for friendship isn't actually friendship.

Elsa "That day when you called me in the middle of the night. If it had been anyone else from work, I would just have blocked them."

A reminder that Elsa has gone out of her way for him in turn. His favors to her are tallied on the Sexual Exchange Ledger, but hers in kind do not seem to possess as much value. Similarly, Elsa's ostensible 'use' of Edward draws a bunch of derision against her, but Edward's own 'using' seems to be ignored at best, celebrated at worst.

Elsa "But It's hard for me to be mean or use someone like you. I can't-. You're so naive and innocuous. It's...It's like hurting a child."

Edward "First I'm not a princess. And second, aren't you using me right now?"

Edward is offended by the identification of a princess, even as he had readily applied it to another person. Why should anyone have to be the princess?

Elsa "No, if I wanted to use you, I wouldn't be saying all of this, and I wouldn't help you with your project - it's irrelevant for me."

Elsa "I prefer to think of this as some kind of symbiosis..."

This is it. That's the key. Edward's preoccupation with the sexual element obfuscates his perception of their relationship outside of that particular transaction.

But she is direct and honest with him, in a way that someone trying to extort for favors, sexual or otherwise, generally would not be.

Edward "Don't you think that it's a little bit too harsh? I mean, calling me a princess."

He wants women to be his princesses, yet finds the notion that he might be one to be harsh. This demonstrates his an imbalanced value dynamic of women not as protagonists of their own stories, with their own motivations, wants, desires, but as props for his own self-fulfillment.

But in truth, he has only been waiting for his fairy tale to play out on his behalf, instead of attaining things that are well within his grasp.

Elsa "Maybe, but I'm trying to help you, not to please you."

Hoooooo, boy -- is that a line.

Edward's great problem is not that he's a simp, a sucker, a cuck. He doesn't need to become alpha, to develop a Durdenic mental disorder. Edward's struggle is that he's become so wounded by personal trauma and disillusionment, in large part because of the amount of emotion he's invested regarding his anxieties with women and the personal value he derives out of them, that he is incapable of accurately perceiving his own reality, and avoidant of the challenges which might bear some risk to his already wounded pride.

It's difficult to imagine anyone other than an Elsa could break him out of it.


It's a sharp disassembly of the Nice Guy Syndrome, and its inherent flaws -- mistaking ineffectuality with niceness, timidity with respect, self-gratifying preoccupation with genuine love ..

There are so many dropped hints that will be skipped over by Edward's distorted perception, but which the player can witness if they have the inclination.

For instance, if you're frustrated about him ignoring Zoe, think of how Zoe feels, while he mutters about how he is invisible to women.

It's actually a very finely, thoughtfully crafted story. It's not a fuckfest. It's an earnest introspection of genuinely mature themes.

 

[Canto Forte]

This is nice and all .. but saying you come closer to this dude because he is harmless,
while you fear, genuinely fear all your other FRIENDS (so she has no female friends and all
her male friends are with benefits) = edward is the only option for her with one only phone call.

She can go top of the morning to see him, no make up on, no high heels,
not like she would go see any of the guys or girls in her agenda.

She goes for edward, the harmless one, the immaculate good guy WHOM NOBODY WANTS TO
HAVE A GENUINE RELATIONSHIP WITH unless he does unmatched efforts to
BECOME SOMEONE HE IS NOT, EFFECTIVELY AND ASSUREDLY NOT - a man who does not give
anyone, man or woman, the opportunity to just insult him because, why not, he is harmless.

Edward is locked in this relationship where Elsa does not fear him telling her bosses
the truth about her - she is a drugged up skank, like she would fear
any of her actual ”FRIENDS” she keeps in her phone.

This makes her hinder any and all his efforts to prove himself to her.
Why would she care? What has he got on her? Why would she acknowledge any of his
breakthroughs when keeping him under her stilletto is so much more gratifying?

 

[Hildegardt]

That's pretty much the theme and eventual lesson of this story, I think.

I really hope this is the case, but so far the consequential variables are labeled "alpha" and "loser" and, as the label suggests, the "loser" path loses out on content. Maybe this will get turned around further into the story and the "loser" turns out to be the actual winner, or maybe choosing to label the variables like this says something about the dev's outlook.

Another thing is that there's no conflict concerning the MC's attitude so far. Being the jealous pussy grabbing alpha male is working out for him, so why change in his ways? I could see Elsa as the adversary to the MC's ego, but how is she supposed to be the catalyst for change, if everything is about getting the trophy wife Alice in the end?

 

[redraw]

Edward is locked in this relationship where Elsa does not fear him telling her bosses she is a grugged up skank, like she would fear any of her actual ”FRIENDS” she keeps in her phone.

Honestly, I don't suspect she has very many friends at all.

I think if Edward's great struggle is delusion, Elsa's might be trust. I get the impression of someone who struggles to get close to people. Though we have much less to go on with her, she drops a few clues.

All of the other stuff about sucking her way to the top, gold-digging, the 'friends she keeps in her phone' seems very much of a kind with the anxieties we're describing.

There are people who are genuinely interested in Edward -- but he doesn't perceive them in the very way he anguishes that he is not perceived.

He spurns, as he laments being spurned.

He's a flawed character, and that is the very point.

 

[Canto Forte]

We are here though, debating his actions and those of the characters he is close to,
so any time he might feel inclined to drop by and take some point away for his
furthering of a transformation, he shoud learn to let go of imposing his own mental state on others,
rater,
- become a maverick,
- stick to the friends of old who are still relentlessly giving him apportunities
to meet fresh people
and
- engage new avenues of human interaction and hone his new found skills
of being alpha and not giving a damn for anyone else but his friends
and then
- finding his own path away from the puppeteering of others.

 

[jufot]

I really hope this is the case, but so far the consequential variables are labeled "alpha" and "loser" and, as the label suggests, the "loser" path loses out on content. Maybe this will get turned around further into the story and the "loser" turns out to be the actual winner, or maybe choosing to label the variables like this says something about the dev's outlook.

I choose to believe that the variable names also reflect the grotesqueries of Edward's psyche, not sqwl's real-life thoughts. He doesn't engage with the community much (even on Patreon) but he doesn't come off as an incel to me. I haven't (and won't) play the "alpha" path, so I can't tell if there is more or less content there, but I'm pretty happy with what we have so far on the "normal human being" path

Another thing is that there's no conflict concerning the MC's attitude so far. Being the jealous pussy grabbing alpha male is working out for him, so why change in his ways? I could see Elsa as the adversary to the MC's ego, but how is she supposed to be the catalyst for change, if everything is about getting the trophy wife Alice in the end?

I think we are moving towards a semi-finale where Edward's "alpha" attitude and inner hatred will result in him hitting rock bottom by doing something wildly inappropriate. I imagine Alice will be the victim of Edward's nastiness (there are already signs of this in 0.4) and Elsa will finally interfere.

Honestly, I don't suspect she has very many friends at all.

One of Elsa's greatest strengths as a character is her outright refusal to engage with Edward on his terms. Any time he tries to find out anything about her personal life, she pushes him away immediately. So, I don't think trying to infer anything about her social life (friends or not) is a good idea. Remember, we see everything from Edward's deeply flawed perspective. He is, by definition, an unreliable narrator

 

[kartolas]

To tell you the truth, besides the MC background story, I think it's all pretty shallow.

 

[redraw]

I really hope this is the case, but so far the consequential variables are labeled "alpha" and "loser" and, as the label suggests, the "loser" path loses out on content. Maybe this will get turned around further into the story and the "loser" turns out to be the actual winner, or maybe choosing to label the variables like this says something about the dev's outlook.

Do they actually say loser somewhere? I'd just looked to grab those quotes, and they had ed_a and ed_l.

I'd interpreted them somewhat differently, maybe as love and hate actions. As in which perspective he is feeding.

Another thing is that there's no conflict concerning the MC's attitude so far. Being the jealous pussy grabbing alpha male is working out for him, so why change in his ways? I could see Elsa as the adversary to the MC's ego, but how is she supposed to be the catalyst for change, if everything is about getting the trophy wife Alice in the end?

Granted, I'm also viewing as much through my own perceptual lens, but I suspect it's more than that. The ostensibly alpha moves might seem to yield results initially, but that behaviour bears its own consequences.

I'd guess there will be a possible playthrough with such an ending, but I'd hope it would be treated with as much reflective nuance as the rest.

 

[Canto Forte]

Elsa is interfering . she is lending her puppy to her hard partying skank to use and abuse for her pleasure. Otherwise, Ed is harmless .. Elsa makes sure of it every chance she gets.

 

[redraw]

So, I don't think trying to infer anything about her social life (friends or not) is a good idea. Remember, we see everything from Edward's deeply flawed perspective. He is, by definition, an unreliable narrator

He is, for sure, but the narrator still gives us hints around Edward's periphery. We are getting some information from the source.

And I admit that it's largely speculative on my part. I've just felt that something hints to an otherwise affectionate person who has experienced her own traumas in life, has her own personal shit to deal with, which may have led to her somewhat distancing herself from others.

 

[jufot]

He is, for sure, but the narrator still gives us hints around Edward's periphery. We are getting some information from the source.

And I admit that it's largely speculative on my part. I've just felt that something hints to an otherwise affectionate person who has experienced her own traumas in life, has her own personal shit to deal with, which may have led to her somewhat distancing herself from others.

That's completely fair, and I could definitely see a revelation like that. I'll readily admit to idolizing her character, so I might be blind to the occasional red flag

 

[Canto Forte]

She fkks Alice and goes to clubs with skanks to do drugs and get shitfaced.

That's completely fair, and I could definitely see a revelation like that. I'll readily admit to idolizing her character, so I might be blind to the occasional red flag

How much more do y”all need to infer out of these obvious scenes dev shows of her?

 

[jufot]

How much more do y”all need to infer out of these obvious scenes dev shows of her?

Well... It might be "obvious" to you, but it certainly isn't to me.

 

[Hildegardt]

She fkks Alice and goes to clubs with skanks to do drugs and get shitfaced.


How much more do y”all need to infer out of these obvious scenes dev shows of her?

Isn't it ironic how these obvious scenes aren't actually in the game?

I don't know, if this is because of language barrier or reading comprehension, but the way you jump to convoluted conclusions and then seemingly get personally offended by fictional characters that are totally different in your own head than in anybody else's makes you come across as pretty out there.

 

[Canto Forte]

Everyone .. say hello to your slave driver .. bully ... whatever you call this attitude.
​

Well... It might be "obvious" to you, but it certainly isn't to me.

Isn't it ironic how these obvious scenes aren't actually in the game?

I don't know, if this is because of language barrier or reading comprehension, but the way you jump to convoluted conclusions and then seemingly get personally offended by fictional characters that are totally different in your own head than in anybody else's makes you come across as pretty out there.

Canto style of writing heavily reminds me of edgy autistic *mental*cels on lookism boards. Especially pushing that narrative that Elsa taking dicks in the clubs and work nonstop while using mc as a pet dog. Like lol, this twisted imagination.