Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.7.14] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[Skandranon]

The issue is not the MC being weaker than other characters(objectively, anyway. Subjectively it could hurt someone's enjoyment). The issue is that these characters that are stronger than us do absolutely nothing to stop the threat to the world that is Kasyrra. Sanders, Gweyr, Garth, Leofric, all the gods, etc. have all been said by the devs that they're stronger than the MC. If that's the case, why are they not the ones trying to stop Kas? Literally all of these characters would know what she's capable of, yet they do nothing besides sit on their asses and there's no justification for it except for maybe Gweyr.

Gotta say, I just don't get this complaint.

I mean...this is how it is in almost everything I can think of.

Any D&D adventure can have you stopping some world-ending threat noone else seems to care about. Gods included.

Any comic you pick up has random mid-level capes dealing with an alien invasion or a world-ending doomsday device or whatever without Superman or Thor or something popping in.

Any shonen anime you watch has a bunch of super powerful old retired or busy or just lazy as hell NPCs just wandering out the world doing nothing useful.

Idk, this just seems to be the normal way of operation to me, especially in RPGs. You're almost always the only one doing anything useful or constructive, and it's very rarely because you're the strongest (at least at the beginning).

 

[Lucky_I]

I think we're at the point of the discussion in which that it's because THIS game is the one doing it and that is the problem. Other stuff doing the same thing doesn't matter, it's that CoC2 is doing it at all. Like what's that one One Piece meme? "Gotta maintain the agenda" or what have you. But I don't know, maybe I'm missing something.

Tho I will say if it's an issue no matter what, regardless of what piece of fiction it's a part of, well then fair enough.

 

[muschi26]

Gotta say, I just don't get this complaint.

I mean...this is how it is in almost everything I can think of.

Any D&D adventure can have you stopping some world-ending threat noone else seems to care about. Gods included.

Any comic you pick up has random mid-level capes dealing with an alien invasion or a world-ending doomsday device or whatever without Superman or Thor or something popping in.

Any shonen anime you watch has a bunch of super powerful old retired or busy or just lazy as hell NPCs just wandering out the world doing nothing useful.

Idk, this just seems to be the normal way of operation to me, especially in RPGs. You're almost always the only one doing anything useful or constructive, and it's very rarely because you're the strongest (at least at the beginning).

When it comes to the actual gods, I think it can be excused; maybe they simply don’t care much about Earth or its inhabitants. If by all accounts they should care, on the other hand, then it’s just bad writing to not have them involve themselves, whether that’s in D&D or COC2. When it comes to characters like Garth or Leofric, who have lots of worldly attachments, it’s much harder to justify their staying uninvolved.

I don’t read comics, so I can’t speak for those, but in the shōnen manga I know, the main characters usually are the strongest people around, other than the villain (e.g. Dragonball), or else the more powerful characters are involved in some way, even if they’re not on the same task as the protagonists (e.g. Naruto).

 

[MoneyMan181]

To be fair, they are the potentially your girlfriends parents and would have heard of them if you interacted with her enough before. Also you normally should be able to meet them before the quest, but Liv's kids are bugged cause this game is dogwater.

...Alright so? It's not exactly normal human behavior to dump your life's story on your daughter's S/O the first time you meet them. And that's IF you're even bothering to date her in the first place. Even still, just because I'm fucking their daughter doesn't mean I magically care about them enough to hear them yap for that long in one sitting.

snip

This being a prevailing issue in many forms of media does not suddenly make it good or okay writing. Hell, every genre you've listed has never been known for smart or intelligent writing. Don't get where you're coming from in terms of it being a thing in RPGs. In almost every one I've played there is a reason the MC is the one doing these things and not somebody else.
Dragon Age? You've got special powers that almost nobody else has and are basically forced to fight the rest of your short life. Fallout 1 and 2? You're the best candidate to leave the settlement. Literally any JRPG? You're the chosen one special anime protag. KOTOR 1 and 2? You're literally the most broken characters to ever exist but just didn't know it yet. Divinity Original Sin 2?

Spoiler

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Deus Ex? Go on missions from your boss, get wrapped up in a huge conspiracy along the way. The Witcher? Get wrapped up in political drama while trying to solve personal drama. Also there are hardly any witchers left. Disco Elysium? Who else is gonna fix your amnesia? Elder Scrolls? You're usually a part of some prophecy. VtMB? Start as a nobody, gain enough power to do whatever you want.

You get the point. Usually in RPGs you are the one in the middle of things because not many people have the ability to do what you can, and/or the MC is privy to special knowledge most others don't. In this game, other people can, according to the devs, help just as much if not more and have the same knowledge as we do.

Even if every single example I brought up is somehow wrong, I'll take that L. Still doesn't make it good writing, though. What-aboutism is like the worst defense to literally anything.

I think we're at the point of discussion is that it's because THIS game is the one doing it, that's the problem. Other stuff doing the same thing doesn't matter, it's that CoC2 is doing it at all. Like what's that one One Piece meme? "Gotta maintain the agenda" or what have you. But I don't know, maybe I'm missing something.

Tho I will say if it's an issue no matter what, regardless of what piece of fiction it's a part of, well then fair enough.

Read above. I don't shit on this game for no reason, I genuinely do want to enjoy it. However, I'm not going to turn my brain off in order to do so unless it's to crank the hog. The devs chose to make this game much more story and lore focused than both the first game and TiTS. The onus is on them to have it enhance the product, not bring it down. I don't go lambasting those games because they're not trying to be more than they are.

 

[Raptor_RXN]

The issue is not the MC being weaker than other characters(objectively, anyway. Subjectively it could hurt someone's enjoyment). The issue is that these characters that are stronger than us do absolutely nothing to stop the threat to the world that is Kasyrra. Sanders, Gweyr, Garth, Leofric, all the gods, etc. have all been said by the devs that they're stronger than the MC. If that's the case, why are they not the ones trying to stop Kas? Literally all of these characters would know what she's capable of, yet they do nothing besides sit on their asses and there's no justification for it except for maybe Gweyr.

It's because the writing is shit.
There's an argument to be made for MCs on the romance path, that Kas just doesn't want to corrupt you. She'd easily corrupt/kill any non-god character. What about the gods? Don't think about it I guess.

 

[Unobtainium]

...Alright so? It's not exactly normal human behavior to dump your life's story on your daughter's S/O the first time you meet them. And that's IF you're even bothering to date her in the first place. Even still, just because I'm fucking their daughter doesn't mean I magically care about them enough to hear them yap for that long in one sitting.

Livrea sends them letters gassing you up to hell and back because she is head over heels for mc and thinks really highly of them. I really don't find it strange for some doting parents to get close to somene after that, and I find it even less strange when you factor in you're going on a multi day boat trip to a battle. Even if you aren't dating her, rag tag merenary parties or soilder PUGs exchanging life storys before a battle also doesn't seem anywhere out of left field.

 

[Skandranon]

This being a prevailing issue in many forms of media does not suddenly make it good or okay writing. Hell, every genre you've listed has never been known for smart or intelligent writing. Don't get where you're coming from in terms of it being a thing in RPGs. In almost every one I've played there is a reason the MC is the one doing these things and not somebody else.
Dragon Age? You've got special powers that almost nobody else has and are basically forced to fight the rest of your short life. Fallout 1 and 2? You're the best candidate to leave the settlement. Literally any JRPG? You're the chosen one special anime protag. KOTOR 1 and 2? You're literally the most broken characters to ever exist but just didn't know it yet. Divinity Original Sin 2?

Spoiler

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Deus Ex? Go on missions from your boss, get wrapped up in a huge conspiracy along the way. The Witcher? Get wrapped up in political drama while trying to solve personal drama. Also there are hardly any witchers left. Disco Elysium? Who else is gonna fix your amnesia? Elder Scrolls? You're usually a part of some prophecy. VtMB? Start as a nobody, gain enough power to do whatever you want.

You get the point. Usually in RPGs you are the one in the middle of things because not many people have the ability to do what you can, and/or the MC is privy to special knowledge most others don't. In this game, other people can, according to the devs, help just as much if not more and have the same knowledge as we do.

Even if every single example I brought up is somehow wrong, I'll take that L. Still doesn't make it good writing, though. What-aboutism is like the worst defense to literally anything.

I would disagree with almost all those examples, in that most/all of them are just contrivances that don't hold up under scrutiny roughly the same as this game.

But more importantly, if you wanted instory reasons, they exist just fine in this game.

You, specifically, are after Kass because you're forced to be.

She told you shes going to take your soul and jangled your destruction in front of you like a set of keys, slapped you with her dick and moonwalked out of the room. Your quest is motivated by self-interest.

The gods aren't helping because Kas, in and of herself, isn't a real threat in their eyes. The face to face she had with a god he told her that, point blank. In that same scene, he says the reasons the gods are keeping their hands off - they're interested in what Kas is doing.

Remember, noone has actually seen what the demons did to Mareth. We know, because of meta knowledge, but the majority of people that actually know about her (and besides the gods its a small amount) haven't met her and have no reason to think she's a particular threat to them. And even if they did, they have no reason to think they could do anything about it - the only reason she hasn't squashed YOu, specifically, is because she has a soft spot to you. The being stronger than you doesn't translate to them being stronger than her.

The priest is a pacifist who wouldn't even beat up a couple of kids.
Garth is practically crippled - he limps just getting around the bar.
Gweyr is both in exile and, strictly speaking, HAS been doing something the whole time - longer than you, actually. And afterwards, she's finally reunited with her family.

And we have next to zero info on Leofric. Who knows what he's doing and why?



tl;dr Very few people know about Kass, even fewer see her an existential threat, and the people that fall under both categories are...well, generally in your party.

 

[Meatshield236]

I think people's complaint's are less about player power and more about player agency. I'm currently replaying Neverwinter Nights, one of Bioware's oldest RPGs, and there's a reason why it's almost never brought up. The story is basic, the characters are cliche, and so on. But even it allows you to have some degree of agency: you can be goody two-shoes, only in it for the fame and glory, not give a damn about anyone, and even threaten or kill NPCs at your leasure. There's always several different options to get through areas, so that while you might miss one path, another path will get you to the same end point.

And CoC 2 doesn't hold up to a painfully mediocre RPG from 20 years ago that I'm only playing because I like DnD and nostagia is a fantastic drug. For how many disposable NPCs there are, we should be able to do what we want with them. Let us randomly murder people or corrupt them into fuck toys. In CoC 2, you are painfully limited in the amount of choices you can make. A proper RPG should feel like a dialogue between the player and the game. The player does something, the game reacts to it. Instead, it feels like I'm having a novel thrown at me every time I talk to someone, and I can't go off script because that person is someone's special OC. It doesn't matter how powerful the PC is, what matters is how much the game lets you decide how to approach things and what to do.

In Neverwinter Nights, I can't deviate from the main plot, but I can be an asshole to everyone I meet and murder everyone I have at my mercy, or just be mercinary and try to get as much money as I can out of every encounter. In CoC 2, I have to follow the script, and my only choices are "do you want fuck?" or not. Which for a text-based game not constrained by graphical fidelity or art, where the only limitation is words, is downright criminal.

 

[jfmherokiller]

I think people's complaint's are less about player power and more about player agency. I'm currently replaying Neverwinter Nights, one of Bioware's oldest RPGs, and there's a reason why it's almost never brought up. The story is basic, the characters are cliche, and so on. But even it allows you to have some degree of agency: you can be goody two-shoes, only in it for the fame and glory, not give a damn about anyone, and even threaten or kill NPCs at your leasure. There's always several different options to get through areas, so that while you might miss one path, another path will get you to the same end point.

And CoC 2 doesn't hold up to a painfully mediocre RPG from 20 years ago that I'm only playing because I like DnD and nostagia is a fantastic drug. For how many disposable NPCs there are, we should be able to do what we want with them. Let us randomly murder people or corrupt them into fuck toys. In CoC 2, you are painfully limited in the amount of choices you can make. A proper RPG should feel like a dialogue between the player and the game. The player does something, the game reacts to it. Instead, it feels like I'm having a novel thrown at me every time I talk to someone, and I can't go off script because that person is someone's special OC. It doesn't matter how powerful the PC is, what matters is how much the game lets you decide how to approach things and what to do.

In Neverwinter Nights, I can't deviate from the main plot, but I can be an asshole to everyone I meet and murder everyone I have at my mercy, or just be mercinary and try to get as much money as I can out of every encounter. In CoC 2, I have to follow the script, and my only choices are "do you want fuck?" or not. Which for a text-based game not constrained by graphical fidelity or art, where the only limitation is words, is downright criminal.

One thing I must admit is you are running into your own desires vs the developers especially with the whole be a bastard and murder people part.

But at the same time they really should flesh out the world and add more choices of ways players can go about things or ATLEAST make each area/choice have some level of consistency/acknowledgement of the players actions.

 

[Yeppers34]

The biggest issue for me is when a game is giving me the option of being a good character or an evil character I want my actions and choices to effect the world and the npcs around me. What's the point of giving the player a "choice" when it doesn't really feel like what I do matters. If the developers want to focus on lore and tell a story then they should have wrote a fanfiction

 

[SirJahar]

Add to that, the first game DID feel like it let your choices have an impact, when it let you make one, and we're really just asking to be allowed the same level of impact on the world without having to write out own novellas and submit it to their scrutiny and kink preferences to see it in the game.

 

[Lord Kentus]

I mean...this is how it is in almost everything I can think of.

Any most setting I can think this is excused, handwaved or explained by insetting lore, D&D for example? Unless specific circumstances are met divine beings or indeed any beings not of the material world of sufficient degree of power that try to cross over are prevented by wards that have stood in place since the ancient war with the Abyss at the dawn of creation.

Its also why special McGuffins are needed to circumvent it to allow invasions from Hell or the Abyss in the material world.

Meanwhile in this shitty setting in the Gods War, Divine beings literally walked among the mortals and fought along with them, thus rendering that argument moot.

Just a remark on something so incorrect I had to comment on it.

 

[Lord Kentus]

And we have next to zero info on Leofric.

Not true, its enough to reveal it is cringe of the highest quality.

 

[NODOGAN]

Ok I'm kinda lost here, why are we naming Garth as if he was powerful all of a sudden? dude's an old timer with a lame leg that needs a cane to walk and LITERALY dies with Cait if you don't help her during the tutorial (the first "bad end" you can get in the game lol)

Leofric's justification is that he is by and all a selfish asshole that only cares about fucking the nearest hole.

Kalisea

Spoiler: well duh

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Carmen literaly is more pacifist than Gohan and would rather be killed than ever fight back because is hinted that she used her own powers and accidentally burned to death her family in the past?

Gweyr...literally feeling like she gonna die after the last mission with us/ain't fit enough to do this job.

IDK chief as much as I like to shit on this game it looks like we're the only ones strong enough (and with enough common sense) to go on fixing this mess.

P.S: I would like it if it was possible to defeat the "enemy hordes" and get a different outcome from characters like "Holy shit you just took out 100 demons!"...kinda like in Monster Racers, the final champion in that game beats the crap out of you on the 2nd level to impress some chicks...but since there's no level cap you can TECHNICALLY train a monster till is good enough to beat him...and I did, just to watch what happened (the mad bastards who made that game coded in the bitches abandoning the champion saying "da fuck? you just lost to that kid, you must be a fake!" and I've loved that game ever since for rewarding my pettyness against a scripted loss like that lol.)

 

[Meatshield236]

One thing I must admit is you are running into your own desires vs the developers especially with the whole be a bastard and murder people part.

But at the same time they really should flesh out the world and add more choices of ways players can go about things or ATLEAST make each area/choice have some level of consistency/acknowledgement of the players actions.

I have no desire to actually kill people in a game like this, it's just the most straightforward way of letting players feel like they have agency, plus they have so many characters that pruning the list down wouldn't hurt. If a character has no impact in the overall story, then there's no harm in letting players kill them, they're just removing content for themselves. Hell, at least let us be an asshole or nice or something that isn't exactly what the author wants us to be like in a particular scene. I swear, the interaction system in this game is borked on a fundamental level. It's, at most, a few words that drop paragraphs upon paragraphs on you. It's not interactive, it's not interesting, it's just a bunch of reading. Which would be fine... if this was a novel or something. Not a game.

 

[Deviton123]

I have no desire to actually kill people in a game like this

Me glancing at Leofric and Takahiro

 

[RedBluePill]

The gods aren't helping because Kas, in and of herself, isn't a real threat in their eyes. The face to face she had with a god he told her that, point blank. In that same scene, he says the reasons the gods are keeping their hands off - they're interested in what Kas is doing.

I dont know about this. SURELY when Kas start corrupting the Elves in Winter City Lumia should've done something. A lot of her Valkyries are Boreal Elves too. SURELY a god that described to be known as Motherly and Protective won't let Kas turns her followers to literal Demons??

 

[poophero]

dose anyone know the stone dial riddle

 

[MoneyMan181]

IDK chief as much as I like to shit on this game it looks like we're the only ones strong enough (and with enough common sense) to go on fixing this mess.

I was simply going off of what the devs themselves said(Pretty sure they mentioned Garth, if not definitely at least Gweyr). Like I mentioned before, I think MC is the strongest person in the plot so far barring draco eve's bullshit.

Livrea sends them letters gassing you up to hell and back because she is head over heels for mc and thinks really highly of them. I really don't find it strange for some doting parents to get close to somene after that, and I find it even less strange when you factor in you're going on a multi day boat trip to a battle. Even if you aren't dating her, rag tag merenary parties or soilder PUGs exchanging life storys before a battle also doesn't seem anywhere out of left field.

True enough. Guess I just hate it so much because it was a boring text dump with characters nobody cares about.

The priest is a pacifist who wouldn't even beat up a couple of kids.
Garth is practically crippled - he limps just getting around the bar.
Gweyr is both in exile and, strictly speaking, HAS been doing something the whole time - longer than you, actually. And afterwards, she's finally reunited with her family.

And we have next to zero info on Leofric. Who knows what he's doing and why?



tl;dr Very few people know about Kass, even fewer see her an existential threat, and the people that fall under both categories are...well, generally in your party.

Alright, cool. I agree with all that. I wasn't complaining about what's actually inside the game itself. I'm complaining about the devs saying these characters are stronger than the MC for literally no reason. We are not given evidence of it in-game and most likely never will. They're simply saying shit just to prop their OCs up on a pedestal and it takes agency away from the player in a meta perspective. Even if it was true, why would they think players would want to hear that an NPC they came up with can just do our job better than us if they wanted to?

What is portrayed in the game and what the devs say are two very different things is what I'm getting at. Same with them calling this game not a power fantasy when you can literally have multiple harems , have at MINIMUM a dozen girlfriends at the same time, turn a few people into sluts, go on a grand adventure where everybody calls you a Champion and praise you for doing heroic shit, gender bend other people, and have absolutely no repercussions for fucking everything under the sun.

 

[Comiies]

IMO i find most lore discussion about COC2 to be worthless since in theory its based in coc1 right?Its supposed to be a sequal right?Well CoC1 itself is full of holes that translate to even more holes in coc2.So any convo/debates are limited to "X quest or X theme of the game is shit",which is fine and all but it saddens me that we cant talk about anything of substance when it comes to the lore of the game since its foundation is so shakey.