Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.7.15] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[MoneyMan181]

This is the first post I've ever made on this site, I barely (if ever) post anywhere but I was so intrigued I just had to ask.

Is there anyone here who's been around for a while in this thread? And if so, I'd like to know why exactly there is contention around the game's writers. I've given the conversation a cursive glance and don't fully understand it, so I'd greatly appreciate if someone experienced could outline why there's hate/animosity/annoyance with some of the writers.

Mainly in regards to Savin? Either way, I've "played" CoC2 for a decent amount of time but haven't touched it in a while, but I don't remember there being anything particularly egregious with the writing. Although I'm not a writer. I enjoyed Zo though.

I haven't been here super long, but I can give you a sparknotes version:

• TOBS' writing is complete shit yet he acts like he's the second coming of GRRM. The vast majority of his content(Kitsune Den and Gweyr's quest) are completely off when it comes to tone/relevance to existing content. He is hypocritical, rude, and dismissive towards valid criticism, even when said criticism is being generally agreed upon. He made Kinu(and by association Kiyoko) a horribly unlikable mess just because some person wanted incest content. He now commissions art of her being fucked by what I assume is his self-insert character and parades that around out of spite as if that's something to be proud of. He also goes on record saying people can't put non-erotic submissions into the game yet he writes text walls about things that don't even pertain to your character.
• I forget the exact words but Savin insulted everybody that uses this board, regardless of people like Skandranon(a person who used to regularly defend the game) existing. It's also very apparent that Savin does not know how to properly run the project when you think about needless content inflation, how he conducts himself and his peers on discord/forums, him going behind another writer's back to commission a rape scene of their beloved companion and putting it into the game, arguably unjustly kicking a writer from the project, not making sure there's a cohesive style or theme to the game, etc. I'm sure there's a lot more I'm missing with him but that's all that immediately comes to mind.
• Bubblelord is essentially TOBS but somehow way worse. There were quite a few screenshots of how he acted in the FenForums posted a while back, maybe you can find them. I replied to it, but maybe the mods nuked that part of the thread, I'm not sure.

I know I missed a lot but I don't feel like wracking my brain on this stuff, anybody else can add whatever they feel is missing. To me, the only devs I really have a problem with are those 3. The others are just victims of the leadership they're under, especially Wsan.

Most of the rants here are in good fun, exaggerated because it's fun to rant.

Honestly besides my own, I haven't even seen many rants these days. Guess people just gave up when it comes to shitting on the game, which I don't blame 'em for.

Personally I love the idea of what the game could have been but not what CuckCo did with it. And Coc1 is objectively better just because player agency.

Pretty much this. The game had amazing potential, more than enough to be better than both TiTS and CoC1. They just fucked it up in so many countless ways. Really might've even been one of my favorite pieces of media but instead we just got...this.

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[jfmherokiller]

This has been explained about 50 times throughout the thread, this is not the first this has been asked, nor will it be the last. I don't blame you though, F95's search option fucking sucks, and even then, how would one even search that as a topic? I've been here from close to the beginning and this is my personal opinion on the whole thing, though others will see it differently.

The answer is most people here like the game one way or the other. Most of the rants here are in good fun, exaggerated because it's fun to rant.
The main reason why it might look so vitriolic from the outside is simply that it's cause and effect. Fen forums, and savin's own discord are complete echo-chambers. So this thread is kind of the opposite by nature. The hate for the writers comes from the way they act if you ever see them in the forums or their DC, they're incredibly, incredibly toxic and insecure people. Many of them write shit just to spite their critics. Literally.

You can't criticize the writers in any way in their own turf, so we kinda take it a bit far here. Savin generally gets shit on for being a terrible, terrible manager and leader (and also cuck accusations, and for writing his favored character into literally every scene ever), Tobs gets shit on for being a complete narcissist and writing entire shitty novels in a porn game because he just can't get his shit read otherwise, Bubbles is a spaz, and so on and so forth. All the writers are mostly dicks in their day to day demeanour, so when someone wants to rant, there's an endless source. Also a lotta the people here prefer CoC 1, though I'm of the belief that most of us are addled by nostalgia in regards to that.

Used to be that this place was less hateful and more rant-y in a fun kind of way, but over time people who truly hate SavCo with a burning passion have actually made this place more like the stereotype that it's known for, that we just mindlessly hate.

Either way, everyone here is passionate in some way about the game, and even those who do nothing but shit on it only do so because they care. I myself love the game, it's unique, but the writers are complete assholes and dregs of society, and there's a lot to be improved. Frankly, even with all its vitriol, this is still the best place to discuss CoC2, because people aren't so utterly afraid, and contrary to what it might seem, we do like (parts) of the game.

I usually avoid creator forums because of the simp epidemic, where trying to joke about something being written badly or actually giving critique can earn you a ban and possibly even ostracization if you may have friends or people you like who catch wind of your ban.

TLDR: imagine friends disassocating or people you never met completely avoiding you because you said a bad thing about said creator.

 

[muschi26]

This is the first post I've ever made on this site, I barely (if ever) post anywhere but I was so intrigued I just had to ask.

Is there anyone here who's been around for a while in this thread? And if so, I'd like to know why exactly there is contention around the game's writers. I've given the conversation a cursive glance and don't fully understand it, so I'd greatly appreciate if someone experienced could outline why there's hate/animosity/annoyance with some of the writers.

Mainly in regards to Savin? Either way, I've "played" CoC2 for a decent amount of time but haven't touched it in a while, but I don't remember there being anything particularly egregious with the writing. Although I'm not a writer. I enjoyed Zo though.

This thread being negative is just reactionary. It’s not that you outright can’t voice dissenting opinions on the official Discord or forums, but you’ll get a lot of push-back.

I’m not 100% up-to-speed regarding all the writers, but some of them have ego problems. They think they’re beyond criticism, and they love to flaunt in their audience’s face that their opinion does not matter. I think it was BubbleLord whose thread was posted here, in which he said he didn’t give a shit what anyone said who wasn’t at least a $10 patron of his. Tobs shuts down people who ask for porn of X character, but not before rubbing it in their face that he has commissioned porn of X character, and he’s not sharing. It comes across as petty, really.

Speaking of Tobs, he gets some flak for a couple story decisions, usually involving player agency (which could be better in general). Stuff like the player being forced to witness unpleasant events without being able to do anything (or even being blamed for them). Moreover, he has a slight tone problem IMO, with phrases like “your slut-wife’s baby-bag” written right next to e.g. “The aroma of the cherry-blossoms wafted through the limpid air, accompanied by diaphanous petals, and she waxed increasingly melancholy; she reached for her koto, and began to pluck a lugubrious elegy that would have the Kami deliquesce in mourning.” (Not an actual quote, but in places his writing feels like this.) This style sticks out when most writers use standard, spoke-variety English. Add to that the fact that most of his scenes are over twice as long as those written by the others, and you can see why some people take issue.

Savin is not the best manager. It’s like he doesn’t have a strong vision for the game, when, as director of the project, his vision is the most important. Supposedly, he’s trying to fight content bloat, but each update adds new characters that are very similar to existing ones.

Like others have said, most people here still like the game, deep down, or at least parts of it. Most, however, are bitter because they feel like their complaints aren’t being heard.

 

[Skandranon]

I know I missed a lot but I don't feel like wracking my brain on this stuff, anybody else can add whatever they feel is missing. To me, the only devs I really have a problem with are those 3. The others are just victims of the leadership they're under, especially Wsan.

Wsan is part of the leadership of the game.
Savin, Tobs, and Wsan were basically the first three on the project, and from everything I've seen they're all basically in lock-step and consult together when it comes to the big policy decisions.

I know everyone here loves Wsans writing, but any decision or policy by the team that's been made that seems stupid or backwards - Wsan probably was one of the ones that helped make it.

 

[undyingrevenant]

This is the first post I've ever made on this site, I barely (if ever) post anywhere but I was so intrigued I just had to ask.

Is there anyone here who's been around for a while in this thread? And if so, I'd like to know why exactly there is contention around the game's writers. I've given the conversation a cursive glance and don't fully understand it, so I'd greatly appreciate if someone experienced could outline why there's hate/animosity/annoyance with some of the writers.

Mainly in regards to Savin? Either way, I've "played" CoC2 for a decent amount of time but haven't touched it in a while, but I don't remember there being anything particularly egregious with the writing. Although I'm not a writer. I enjoyed Zo though.

i gotchu. i'll try to be as neutral as possible and format it so it's not a wall. i might not put everything but ill put what i can easily recall.

Spoiler: Savin

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Spoiler: The Observer

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Spoiler: Bubble Lord

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Spoiler: Wsan

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Spoiler: Alypia

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Spoiler: Fleep

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other than that, most others don't have any notable traits or negatives i can think of at the moment. not saying they're not good or haven't done bad things but just mostly keep their heads down with work of varying levels of player satisfaction

edit: additionally to tobs, some of the kitsune content has come across as overly harsh towards japanese culture, ranging from critique to near or active discrimination instead of a celebration of it with various monster girls and boys which it appeared to be to most at first. much of the diplomacy, alienation and superiority complexes seem to stem from that instead of being solely character traits

 

[muschi26]

Popped up with tons of commissions of her character being impregnated by etheryn, seems to possibly be the reason there's been a push for etheryn's endgame to focus heavily on her impregnation of the mc or elthara, however it's conspiracy territory and all considered seems to be the most personable "pr manager" of the writers.

The problem with the Etheryn pregnancy is that Elthara is a character who is presented as monogamous first and foremost, with optional sharing. Then, the story comes around and forces you into sharing her with Etheryn if you either 1. aren’t into Etheryn yourself, and so likely don’t want to get pregnant by her; or 2. can’t get pregnant—so literally every single male character—, which encompasses a huge amount of the playerbase, many of whom aren’t into sharing. Moreover, Etheryn identifies as female, and even has interactions focused on transforming her body to be more feminine (increased hips and breasts), but for some reason she will not agree to getting a vagina instead of, or in addition to, her cock, which would allow her to get pregnant instead of forcing the PC into sharing content—again, out of nowhere.

 

[jfmherokiller]

Ironicly this game is technically easier to mod then TiTS because of how the code is laid out.

Also did Cait have some kind of TF thing where you could make her part Leothean or am I confusing TiTS and CoC2

 

[MoneyMan181]

Wsan is part of the leadership of the game.
Savin, Tobs, and Wsan were basically the first three on the project, and from everything I've seen they're all basically in lock-step and consult together when it comes to the big policy decisions.

I know everyone here loves Wsans writing, but any decision or policy by the team that's been made that seems stupid or backwards - Wsan probably was one of the ones that helped make it.

I get that, but isn't Savin ultimately the leader of the whole thing? Regardless, I feel like he's still negatively influenced by them.

has shown up here multiple times and communicated, is respectable

Forgot the silly Cait "NTR" scene he wrote that seems biased towards his characters when compared to the "NTR" scenes where you're the one doing it. Not that I really care much about it, but I feel like it's worth mentioning since people obviously didn't like it when he posted he was doing that here. Funnily enough we haven't seen him since.

The problem with the Etheryn pregnancy is that Elthara is a character who is presented as monogamous first and foremost, with optional sharing. Then, the story comes around and forces you into sharing her with Etheryn if you either 1. aren’t into Etheryn yourself, and so likely don’t want to get pregnant by her; or 2. can’t get pregnant—so literally every single male character—, which encompasses a huge amount of the playerbase, many of whom aren’t into sharing. Moreover, Etheryn identifies as female, and even has interactions focused on transforming her body to be more feminine (increased hips and breasts), but for some reason she will not agree to getting a vagina instead of, or in addition to, her cock, which would allow her to get pregnant instead of forcing the PC into sharing content—again, out of nowhere.

Honestly the optional sharing stuff is really weird, too. Feel like it heavily sacrifices work that could've just gone into making her better and more fleshed-out rather than catering to fetish that is niche even within the playerbase.

 

[ha.]

This has been explained about 50 times throughout the thread, this is not the first this has been asked, nor will it be the last. I don't blame you though, F95's search option fucking sucks, and even then, how would one even search that as a topic? I've been here from close to the beginning and this is my personal opinion on the whole thing, though others will see it differently.

The answer is most people here like the game one way or the other. Most of the rants here are in good fun, exaggerated because it's fun to rant.
The main reason why it might look so vitriolic from the outside is simply that it's cause and effect. Fen forums, and savin's own discord are complete echo-chambers. So this thread is kind of the opposite by nature. The hate for the writers comes from the way they act if you ever see them in the forums or their DC, they're incredibly, incredibly toxic and insecure people. Many of them write shit just to spite their critics. Literally.

You can't criticize the writers in any way in their own turf, so we kinda take it a bit far here. Savin generally gets shit on for being a terrible, terrible manager and leader (and also cuck accusations, and for writing his favored character into literally every scene ever), Tobs gets shit on for being a complete narcissist and writing entire shitty novels in a porn game because he just can't get his shit read otherwise, Bubbles is a spaz, and so on and so forth. All the writers are mostly dicks in their day to day demeanour, so when someone wants to rant, there's an endless source. Also a lotta the people here prefer CoC 1, though I'm of the belief that most of us are addled by nostalgia in regards to that.

Used to be that this place was less hateful and more rant-y in a fun kind of way, but over time people who truly hate SavCo with a burning passion have actually made this place more like the stereotype that it's known for, that we just mindlessly hate.

Either way, everyone here is passionate in some way about the game, and even those who do nothing but shit on it only do so because they care. I myself love the game, it's unique, but the writers are complete assholes and dregs of society, and there's a lot to be improved. Frankly, even with all its vitriol, this is still the best place to discuss CoC2, because people aren't so utterly afraid, and contrary to what it might seem, we do like (parts) of the game.

Thanks a lot for clarifying for me. Have a good one

Thanks to Moneyman and undyingrevenant too. Didn't notice it before I posted this.

 

[Wrynn13]

Fanfic/pics of self insert character getting knocked up by Etheryn aside (Which seems pretty odd for a self identified lesbian, but I have a male character running around impregnating anything he can so who am I to judge?) I still think the anti dedicking is more a Savin salt mining decision than one Alypia made on her own as he made several comments about it before she joined the team. And he's an ass... Still I wish she had gotten to do her own companion instead of picking up Savin's trash.

 

[ha.]

However, after reading all these testimonials it strikes me as exceptionally odd that someone can become so narcissistic and egocentric over their writing, at least from a personal perspective. I've dabbled in writing over the years and am hopelessly unaware of how one can come to obsess over their own work in this manner.

Man, the shit I've written isn't good by any means, but if someone offers me genuine criticism I'm not going to turn it down and scream hysterics because of it.

 

[EmPockets998]

i gotchu. i'll try to be as neutral as possible and format it so it's not a wall. i might not put everything but ill put what i can easily recall.

Spoiler: Savin

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Spoiler: The Observer

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Spoiler: Bubble Lord

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Spoiler: Wsan

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Spoiler: Alypia

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Spoiler: Fleep

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other than that, most others don't have any notable traits or negatives i can think of at the moment. not saying they're not good or haven't done bad things but just mostly keep their heads down with work of varying levels of player satisfaction

edit: additionally to tobs, some of the kitsune content has come across as overly harsh towards japanese culture, ranging from critique to near or active discrimination instead of a celebration of it with various monster girls and boys which it appeared to be to most at first. much of the diplomacy, alienation and superiority complexes seem to stem from that instead of being solely character traits

Accurate but you forgot to include Jstar, author of devoted Waifu Drifta

 

[confusedcommoner]

Wsan is part of the leadership of the game.
Savin, Tobs, and Wsan were basically the first three on the project, and from everything I've seen they're all basically in lock-step and consult together when it comes to the big policy decisions.

I know everyone here loves Wsans writing, but any decision or policy by the team that's been made that seems stupid or backwards - Wsan probably was one of the ones that helped make it.

I agree to an extent. Wsan's my favourite writer by a large margin, not that there's much competition, but it does feel like people excuse him a lot because of his writing. He's happy to say the same dismissive stuff about fans/criticism as the rest of the team, just tactfully. Putting Wsan or even Tobs on the level with Savin isn't fair though, and I'm not sure how they're "lock-step" when the Brienne-Hobgoblin drama exists, unless that was Wsan being deceitful. Savin has the final word and is supposed to review submissions, so he's the one responsible for the game's cohesion and rules/policies being enforced.

Most of their policies aren't enforced evenly, e.g. Savin has 3 companions for some reason. Community submissions will be rejected for things that are unbearably common in staff pieces, like dictating how the PC feels about something or sitting through a novel of exposition with no interaction and no erotic content, which are SKoW and Tobs cornerstones respectively. The fact that Drifa was forced to 50,000~ words and multiple sex scenes, while Gweyrquest ran many more words with barely one scene, which was NPCxNPC, is ridiculously inconsistent.

Imma just yeet this in here as it does have the latest version. (BTW I have nothing to do with this folder, I just have it saved to check for the latest versions and it's been shared here many times.)
CoC2 Mega Folder

Yea, that's my folder. I post the updates here, which you can easily find by searching 0.5.17 Patch Notes for example. I may be late next update though, depending on when it is.

 

[Biostar]

So would you say that Quin (ignoring his personality) would be the your upper limit when it comes to big botty twinks?

Yes, with the addendum that I'm talking about his old design. His new one takes him right out of my strike zone.

 

[Skandranon]

Putting Wsan or even Tobs on the level with Savin isn't fair though, and I'm not sure how they're "lock-step" when the Brienne-Hobgoblin drama exists, unless that was Wsan being deceitful. Savin has the final word and is supposed to review submissions, so he's the one responsible for the game's cohesion and rules/policies being enforced.

I dont think there was any actual drama. I think it's just a case of people hopping on tiny things and blowing them out of proportion.

Pretty sure the while thing was Wsan just not actually reading the scene until someone told him about it (because they often don't read each other's work) amd Tobs...being Tobs and writing something out of tone with the rest of the game, as he does.

The whole conspiracy theory where Savin and Tobs snuck something into the game to spite Wsan is...pretty much just that.

 

[jfmherokiller]

is it just me or is Wsan seemingly involved with muliple furry games at the same time?

 

[confusedcommoner]

I dont think there was any actual drama. I think it's just a case of people hopping on tiny things and blowing them out of proportion.
Pretty sure the while thing was Wsan just not actually reading the scene until someone told him about it (because they often don't read each other's work) amd Tobs...being Tobs and writing something out of tone with the rest of the game, as he does.
The whole conspiracy theory where Savin and Tobs snuck something into the game to spite Wsan is...pretty much just that.

There was definitely drama, since it resulted in Wsan saying he'd tighten control over his content. Now whether there was anything sneaky, I've no clue. Tobs does love his bizarre tone content though.

I meant it as an example that the leadership clearly isn't in sync when they don't even read each other's submissions, even for their companion characters, and aren't pleased if they do read the submissions.

 

[Skandranon]

There was definitely drama, since it resulted in Wsan saying he'd tighten control over his content. Now whether there was anything sneaky, I've no clue. Tobs does love his bizarre tone content though.

Eh, might be just a difference of opinion on what constitutes "drama".

I meant it as an example that the leadership clearly isn't in sync when they don't even read each other's submissions, even for their companion characters, and aren't pleased if they do read the submissions.

Well, I said "on the big policy decisions" specifically. They pretty much always back each other on that stuff.

 

[jfmherokiller]

Eh, might be just a difference of opinion on what constitutes "drama".



Well, I said "on the big policy decisions" specifically. They pretty much always back each other on that stuff.

so i looked at your unoffical list in your sig and saw:

• Oma
  • Female genie character by B
  • Grants wishes
  • Can transform into anything

• Male Kitsune (Tetsuya)
  • Jstar
  • Husbando; basically male Kiyoko

this interests me as well as the additional lyric content but as far as my own datamining can come up with I dont see anything about it.

 

[confusedcommoner]

Well, I said "on the big policy decisions" specifically. They pretty much always back each other on that stuff.

That's fair, your 2nd paragraph made me think you also meant in general, but Wsan did back cutting Berwyn as a companion which was a big choice.

The original point was how the leadership affects the writers, and in general, I'd argue Savin has by far the most effect as the project lead, whereas Wsan&SKoW have very little, and Tobs has a bit as he's set a few rules, reviews some submissions, and brawls on the forum occasionally.