Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.7.33] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[zwagon]

Did Fenoxo have any similar Crew related drama/issues?

Mostly off topic for this thread so not worth getting into it much, but fen has shown himself to be an asshole multiple times in the past. One incident that stands out is fen implementing the corrupt farm path after divorcing his ex-wife. Whitney was his ex-wife's fursona or something and until that divorce was never supposed to be sexable. Whether or not their divorce was bad, fen doing that to his ex-wife's fursona assumedly for revenge gives you an idea on what kind of person he is.

So, yeah, COC2 comes from a long line of people being toxic and shitty to others.

 

[CratorH8er]

Why you think I hate somebody I have never even interacted with and don't know anything about is beyond me. I couldn't give less of a fuck about Gardeford, Bubs, or any other writer on the team except for Wsan.

This also makes no sense even from your point of view. There is literally 0 difference between saying you're working on something or not saying anything in this situation. Why would claiming to be creating content even matter when that content is not being released?

But OK, I'll admit Hugs could've handled the situation better. However, I have to ask: Why did Savin feel the need to drop the fucking nuclear bomb that is booting out the writer to a companion? Unless Hugs was a CONSTANT problem child that was fucking things up a lot, I see no reason to boot him over something as ultimately trivial as going radio silent for a few months at time. Because again, that doesn't mean shit when his companion still has more content than other ones currently in the game. There is absolutely 0 reason for something this drastic unless Berwyn was SEVERELY behind in terms of content and they had to catch him up to speed. Which we all know he wasn't, so I see absolutely zero reason to kick him.

Seriously this is the weakest justification for dev fuckery I've seen.

The difference is communication. Maybe you've never worked on a group project or collaboration of any kind before, but when you're depending on someone to do something and they go radio silent without doing it, it becomes a pretty big issue, whereas if you're depending on someone to do something and they make it clear that it's still being worked on, you'll at least have the expectation that they'll still deliver on what is required of them eventually.

Gardeford went on to say that Hugs had some anger issues and was not the easiest person to work with, so it's likely that him going radio silent was one of several issues that contributed to being ousted. If you believe him or not is up to you, he's the only one on the team who's been up front about the situation publicly.

 

[Jötunn123]

Some time anger problems are issues but there also those that are more passive aggressive in their behaviour instead. When I worked on school group projects, I actually preferred those that showed anger rather than being passive aggressive, you can actually understand someone that is angry, hard to figure out passive aggression until the end, at which it's often too late.

 

[Evizzy89]

Mostly off topic for this thread so not worth getting into it much, but fen has shown himself to be an asshole multiple times in the past. One incident that stands out is fen implementing the corrupt farm path after divorcing his ex-wife. Whitney was his ex-wife's fursona or something and until that divorce was never supposed to be sexable. Whether or not their divorce was bad, fen doing that to his ex-wife's fursona assumedly for revenge gives you an idea on what kind of person he is.

So, yeah, COC2 comes from a long line of people being toxic and shitty to others.

but i thought savin was the cuck, or are they both cucks

 

[Jötunn123]

Spending years working on a hentai furry game that was mostly funded by donations. I'm not trying to be hypocritical or anything, but it doesn't seem like something that his wife might have enjoyed.

Just a silly guess though, it's possible that she was fine with it and something else happened between them.

 

[VeryMeta]

It's amazing how one of the key takeaways from the CoC2 development cycle seems to be about the importance of something as 'elementary' as communication, both in terms of inter-dev/writer communications and communications between devs/writers and the audience. I know WSan has contended that if the devs hadn't just dropped the "Berry is fucking dead" as a done deal the drama would have been even worse, but I simply don't believe that. For example, even writing an apologetic blogpost talking about how the B Berry project wasn't working (shortly after it became internally apparent that that was the case) would have softened the blow and given Berry enjoyers some time to adjust to the unfortunate new reality.

Similarly, I've written in the past about my issues with the TOBS writing tone, specifically how it clashes so so much with the VAST majority of the other content available for CoC2. This discrepancy would be either resolved or if not resolved, mitigated, by actually having the writers talk to each other about what they wanted to write, what themes they wanted their characters, and the game as a whole, to have, and basically just trying to create an actually coherent product rather than a strange amalgamation of a bunch of very distinct and different ideas and styles.

 

[undyingrevenant]

I really hope eventually they start building on what they have instead of more one shot npcs. Especially weird with the random "no bars" comments tobs made when their current design is closer to "a bar every square". They're labeling too many characters "complete" too early and adding in stuff like "well we want a random futa with a harem" "who is she" "a futa with a harem duh". It'd be nice to have fewer characters with more content and personality, and if they're not interesting enough to continue writing for them they probably shouldn't have been made in the first place. If you want the "it's a smut game bro" shield then give characters more positions or additional kinks. I mean I'd assume theyll add more "eventuallyTM" for some but you've got stuff like kinus entire life story while kiyoko fades into the background and taldahs stares off into the void

 

[LandBeach]

The difference is communication. Maybe you've never worked on a group project or collaboration of any kind before, but when you're depending on someone to do something and they go radio silent without doing it, it becomes a pretty big issue, whereas if you're depending on someone to do something and they make it clear that it's still being worked on, you'll at least have the expectation that they'll still deliver on what is required of them eventually.

Gardeford went on to say that Hugs had some anger issues and was not the easiest person to work with, so it's likely that him going radio silent was one of several issues that contributed to being ousted. If you believe him or not is up to you, he's the only one on the team who's been up front about the situation publicly.

This game's communication in general is terrible though.

Also, does Savin have his dnd thing or whatever still going on?

 

[Wrynn13]

Mostly off topic for this thread so not worth getting into it much, but fen has shown himself to be an asshole multiple times in the past. One incident that stands out is fen implementing the corrupt farm path after divorcing his ex-wife. Whitney was his ex-wife's fursona or something and until that divorce was never supposed to be sexable. Whether or not their divorce was bad, fen doing that to his ex-wife's fursona assumedly for revenge gives you an idea on what kind of person he is.

So, yeah, COC2 comes from a long line of people being toxic and shitty to others.

I missed or forgot that one but sadly am not at all surprised by it.

 

[Shiro15]

dont forget about the budget!
theres been AAA games with smaller budgets than CoC2 has, and with less "developers" too
jus sayin ;O

edit: anyone whos been here a long time i am curious what coc2s starting budget was from gofundme, ive heard variances from 200k to 400k anyone who knows enlighten me?

Further insight, Undertales was made with 50K. Made by one person. Now I know there is not as much writing in Undertales, but Toby Fox did all of the music, writing and programing himself. I think only two characters were designed by Temmie. It was the Spider chick and Temmie village. Finished development in roughly 2-3 years (32months if you want to be exact). So, what is the excuse for this game, that is mostly dialogue focused, has multiple writers and artist. Plus the commission writers. Programmers. And even if you low-ball the amount of money( lets say they only got 100k) they are still making a game with about 2x the budget of undertales. (This is also ignoring the donations they get from streams and steam sales.) If they really got 200k from their gofund me that's 4x. There is no excuse for this game being in the state that it is. This goes beyond incompetence and laziness.

Skull Girls- was made for 200k. 8 hand drawn sprites, with hand drawn animation, music and fully voiced. Miss information on my part.

 

[MoneyMan181]

The difference is communication. Maybe you've never worked on a group project or collaboration of any kind before, but when you're depending on someone to do something and they go radio silent without doing it, it becomes a pretty big issue, whereas if you're depending on someone to do something and they make it clear that it's still being worked on, you'll at least have the expectation that they'll still deliver on what is required of them eventually.

Gardeford went on to say that Hugs had some anger issues and was not the easiest person to work with, so it's likely that him going radio silent was one of several issues that contributed to being ousted. If you believe him or not is up to you, he's the only one on the team who's been up front about the situation publicly.

Regardless of how important you think communication is, Berwyn had just as much, if not more content than other companions, and was not in desperate need of updating. There is no reason to kick Hugs off writing his companion unless he was behind in terms of content. I doubt Savin even warned him to get his shit together or else someone else would take over Berwyn. And it's not even like these devs actually work together very much so I don't see how cohesion is a big deal either.

I also made a bunch of other points in my previous post you just ignored but whatever.

 

[A Burning Conscience]

Regardless of how important you think communication is, Berwyn had just as much, if not more content than other companions...

Looking at Agni and her all of three sex options and no interactions save generic "Oh and she's there too."
And she's the one that B is supposedly so busy with he couldn't take over Berwyn for.

 

[Skandranon]

You must be registered to see the links

Skullgirls was made for 1.7 million dollars, and that was with some of the staff operating on reduced budgets for their salary and a team that was built from previous companies who had worked on previous games.

Each individual character ran about 200k.

Also, this game as far as I know never ran any kind of GoFundMe at all. TiTs did on Offbeatr.

 

[undyingrevenant]

It's one thing to have ocs or characters you like a lot you want to push but it's odd they care so little about fans reactions. Like "ok why don't people like this character so commonly, is there something I could do to explain why they are how they are, or an event/s I could set up to show their better qualities". Nakano they've missed multiple chances now to show he cares for kinu or for him to have potential, caits a hard sell but you could show her caring for people or sex for comfort and being a "hooker with a heart of gold" instead of her current Mary sueness . Azyrran could be more open about loving the mc and liaden. Many of the characters are completely salvageable they just go "no that's stupid lol" if it doesn't match what they want.

They prioritize polls and say stuff like "yeah cuck, futa and females got the most votes so shut up" but then don't ever see a overwhelming reaction to something and decide it needs alterations. It becomes counterproductive. Obv the echo chamber helps nothing but they see kinus blazing fire and acid reaction, they go all in. At least 75% of people hate cait and her mandatory nature, add in "ty for birthing the ultimate female life form". Azyrrans lost most of her fanbase, double down on liaden. People want etheryn to be able to get pregnant or to simply not have a kid, double down on you *will* get pregnant or she *will* impregnate elthara. People despise nakano, kinus almost killed multiple times while he writes poetry edgily in his chair. It's still early enough in development, there's time to fix a great deal, but don't know whether they see it and refuse or are just that ignorant. "I dunno why people don't like cait, is it because she can't get pregnant?" " Bro if Berwyn didn't have fan art he'd be just as popular as quin." "Well obviously you don't understand the master's degree level subtext of my kitsune den or my masterful interpretation of the ultimate video game series; princess maker". My brothers and sisters in christ have you considered more people don't like your characters because they're unlikeable

 

[Skandranon]

It's one thing to have ocs or characters you like a lot you want to push but it's odd they care so little about fans reactions.

The starting point is the issue here.

The opinions here aren't really reflective of that of the wider fanbase. It's the exact opposite in a lot of cases.

Tobs' content is a good example. This forum, me included, isn't the biggest fan of Tobs to say the least - yet the forums and Discord love Tobs. The reviews of the game like the kitsune content more than anything else. Kinu is praised to high heaven. Kiyoko was voted the most popular companion in the game by a good bit.

If you're wondering why they don't react to the wishes of their fanbase, take a look at their earnings

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and notice it's been rising fairly steadily since its inception, not even counting its two other revenue streams.

The people paying them seem to like what they're doing. Their fan reactions that you speak of are largely positive.

Why change?

 

[Rickart]

Strip Poker Night at the Inventory. It's focused on the interactions between characters that anyone can write for. If a character hasn't been updated in a while, and someone is interested, they can ask and start working on the that character. 9I'm not sure of the specifics of working because I haven't tried my hand at it.)

Point being, everyone in the SPNATI community works together, instead of whatever the hell this is shaping up to be.

That actually sounds pretty interesting. Do you have a link for it? Since I can't seem to find SPNATI anywhere on the site, just someone asking for a full save.

 

[BigSaltDeluxe]

That actually sounds pretty interesting. Do you have a link for it? Since I can't seem to find SPNATI anywhere on the site, just someone asking for a full save.

Yeah, it's on spnati.net. There is also a github (where you can download the latest version if you want to use debug mode) here:

You must be registered to see the links

 

[liinh]

"Well obviously you don't understand the master's degree level subtext of my kitsune den or my masterful interpretation of the ultimate video game series; princess maker".

chiming in to say as a princess maker series fan that tobs totally fucked up w the tones of kinu if she was meant to be a raising sim element as well. sure she has the two personalities but your interaction with her feels so.. idk shallow. not that i was expecting like 8 different types of way kinu could turn out but wish we actually got to be more of a parent or have more influence.

also of all people to base a character off of (hitoshi) he had to choose like one of the most.. generic pm characters i can think of. i don't even dislike the original hitoshi (from pm5) but he's just a normal guy. boring inspiration material imo.

 

[Wavering]

So, I actually agree with Skandranon, with regards to this censorship debate. Seems like the community here (and possibly 4chan), are slightly hyper-aware of any censorship being perpetrated on the official forums.
This might have been the case in the past, but recently it seems like the developers are more inclined to ridicule one for criticism (constructive criticism or not), and rile up the community to dunk on the one who supplied said critique, or just laugh at them - instead of outright removing the post.
Seems like they've more so given up on the official forums (if the bug reports are anything to go by, lol) in favor of the discord instead, as it appears to be an environment that is easier for discussions about the game, and possibly less negative.

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I haven't been on the forums in a while, but last time I was, all posts needed moderator approval to be shown. So if any negativity get posted, it's been approved by the Commissariat, don't you worry.

EDITED: Basically, seems to be related to the official forums being updated (XenForo versions updated).

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To go back to the topic of criticism, I do dislike how it appears that criticism is generally not wanted by the developers (constructive criticism or not), whether on the official forums or otherwise. But the reactions exhibited from the developers (particularly Savin, The Observer and BubbleLord), seems to indicate that their egos might be tied to the content they've put in the game, or more likely to the character's they've created - seeing as Savin appeared to not appreciate criticism of Cait, even though the content in question was actually written by SomeKindOfWizard (the Atani wedding Cait content).
- Link (Savin Cait Atani wedding context - Previous post here): https://f95zone.to/threads/corruption-of-champions-ii-v0-5-10-savin-salamander-studios.11371/post-6147904

I dunno, it just seems like being critical of their content is not up for discussion, whether they're developers or writers, as Balaknightfang also doesn't seem to take kindly to people critiquing their content either (although maybe to a lesser extent) - not to mention the fact that there's a joke (amongst the forums / discord community) that every time someone asks about Nelia they add another month delay to her. Not really a joke when she still hasn't had any meaningful content outside of Ragnild's Quest - Blacksmith's New Clothes (written by The Observer, not Balaknightfang), and the Spidernets Quest (written by Gardeford, most likely for fishnets for Atugia as she has scenes with them - also not written by Balaknightfang) - well over 3 years since her release. Truly a worrisome prospect with Balaknightfang writing Viviane, and her seemingly going to be a companion and all...

- Links (Balaknightfang joke / quote context, and Nelia release date):
1. Balaknightfang quote - https://forum.fenoxo.com/threads/what-content-would-you-like-added.13015/page-121#post-339700
2. Nelia release - https://wiki.smutosaur.us/CoC2/index.php?title=Version_history&oldid=19907#0.2.6_.28July_7.2C_2019.29

Another aspect that they seemingly also don't want criticism toward is how bad they are at addressing issues (bugs) - this goes for both Trials in Tainted Space and Corruption of Champions 2. One look at the bug reports sub-forums for the games showcases that.
They are incredibly bad at replying to threads with issues, and fixing said issues. It sometimes takes literally tagging them in the threads to see a response, and often there's no update after they ask for a save, and it's provided.
It's fine that they have an internal Trello that they add to, but it would be nice to give feedback to the members of the forum on the status of their bug report, no? Otherwise it feels like the onus is on the member who reported it to check whether the bug is still persistent after each patch (if they care enough to do so), instead of it being the developers responsibility to check.

To back this up, there's a bug in CoC2 that I know of, which has, no joke, been in the game since 2018. Yes, you read that right, 2018, nearly a full 4 years ago. I tried many a time to compile a thorough (semi-professional pdf) document with regards to the bug, but then I realized I'm putting in more effort than they do in the game, so instead it's now a bullet point text document that I'm debating actually sharing lol - it's seriously funnier the more time elapses without them actually seeing it. It's obvious (or should be, for the developers) from looking at the code, but it appears that nobody reviews the code, or even play tests the game for more than an hour or so.

Which is another issue I have with the game, why is it that the developers can't seem to play through their own content? Or at the very least review it themselves? And even more so for Savin - how is it that the project lead / project manager can be unaware of content, for their own character might I add - for what appears to be years after it was added? I'll tell you my theory - Savin doesn't actually review content (as in, in-depth with regards to the lore and setting etc, and how it will relate with other established content) from people that are trusted (either by Savin or within the community) - so, any community writer that came from TiTS and FoE in the last couple of years... That appears to be how the Etheryn Hashat scene happened, which SomeKindOfWizard was once again responsible for. Which is even funnier if you consider that Hashat is super into Ryn for being a feminine elf, yet a "dickgirl" / "hermaphrodite" elf player character is basically ignored by Hashat - the player character has to instead be "fully female" for her to be interested in the player character. The reasoning? SomeKindOfWizard "forgot" to write that possibility. And that was said (incorrectly, didn't seem to know the "hermaphrodite" possibility) by Balaknightfang around a year ago, which is more than a year after it was added - so, now it's been 2 years since then, and no changes still (also a year since Balaknightfang's post (incorrectly, once again) acknowledging it).

- Links (Balaknightfang's post): https://forum.fenoxo.com/threads/your-gripes-with-coc-ii.19814/page-38#post-353799

I dunno man, I don't mean to go on a rant about this game, but it's seriously depressing how much these developers act like amateurs, despite doing this whole game development thing for a decade, if not more.

 

[Boardguy]

They prioritize polls and say stuff like "yeah cuck, futa and females got the most votes so shut up" but then don't ever see a overwhelming reaction to something and decide it needs alterations.

Actually weren't "threesomes" ranked pretty low, almost as low as M x M? That part doesn't work here for the rest of ya truths and yes. Literally, everything they post would not fly if they weren't coasting off an established name cause half the companions would be in damage control cause most people don't like getting shit on. Which begs the questions for this game, what exactly are people paying for? It can't Just be B & K and maybe C, so there has to be somethings they like enough to keep funding, unless your one of those who forget what they're paying for.