Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.8.17] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[CrimsonSongbird1982]

look at WH40K: would say a space marine is an example of power fantasy?

I don't know enough about Warhammer and its various settings, games, and shows to argue one way or the other tbh. If the point is that a dark fantasy setting means it can't be a power fantasy in any way, then I disagree.

Being powerful and well connected is not the same as living a power fantasy. The power fantasy is how an ugly goblin like him (except in W3) can get laid without paying.

That seems exactly the same as a power fantasy or at least an aspect of it. And I haven't read the books so idk if he's overtly ugly in those, but in-game Geralt is more treated as unsettling due to his eyes and scars, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who'd call him ugly. Either way, shifting what the power fantasy of Witcher is doesn't negate the issues with Savin's point.

There isn't a single exceptionally written power fantasy novel in the history of humankind. You know where power fantasies sell well? Manga, anime, capeshit comics. The only way to make anything worthwhile out of it is by making something like One Punch Man. There's no high literature based on power fantasy and there'll never be. It doesn't hold itself together under scrutiny, make it for the weebs.

It can still be enjoyable. I enjoyed WOTR. Is it something to write home about? No. The gameplay's still enjoyable, despite the hordes of enemies, so that's worth something.

While I don't exactly disagree with this specific sentiment, I've bitched about stuff like Shield Hero and others after all, It feels like you're splitting hairs on what constitutes a power fantasy and I don't fully understand what your point is overall. Especially in your initial response.

 

[yuzuyo]

I don't fully understand what your point is overall.

The point is that it doesn't need power fantasy to not be garbage. Like I said, a toned down Trials in Tainted Space could work. They only needed to look at TiTS and tone it down a little for CoC2 and the game would feel good without giving in to power fantasy. They went the opposite way and made the MC completely irrelevant since we're not needed for anything and the gods completely irredeemable trash for allowing Kasyrra to do whatever the fuck she wants.

 

[Chris20]

There isn't a single exceptionally written power fantasy novel in the history of humankind. You know where power fantasies sell well? Manga, anime, capeshit comics. The only way to make anything worthwhile out of it is by making something like One Punch Man. There's no high literature based on power fantasy and there'll never be. It doesn't hold itself together under scrutiny, make it for the weebs.

It can still be enjoyable. I enjoyed WOTR. Is it something to write home about? No. The gameplay's still enjoyable, despite the hordes of enemies, so that's worth something.

There are good examples by either side of the coin (NSFW and SFW). The ones that comes to mind are the following:

1. Baldur gate trilogy.
2. The fallout series.
3. The original Mass Effect trilogy.
4. The Dragon Age trilogy (dont mention the blasphemy of the new one)

In the NSFW realm, you have The last Sovereign, Superhuman, Ravager and maybe even Seed of chaos but right now it is more about being a servant and a lot of NTR stuff so meh.
The key is making the story with consequential limitations, not limitless power from the beginning.

 

[ChubbyFatBoy]

I don't agree with this perception. To give a different example, look at WH40K: would say a space marine is an example of power fantasy? I wouldn't. Being powerful and well connected is not the same as living a power fantasy. The power fantasy is how an ugly goblin like him (except in W3) can get laid without paying.

Power fantasies are frequently dogshit, worthless wankery, so I agree with Savin's position of being against it, at least most of the time. The problem is that they go the opposite way and make the champion completely irrelevant. If a fragile human being in our world can be influential and at the same time so incredibly fragile, why not give the players something to make them feel like they achieved something, even if they can't go around slaying gods? Giving us hard-earned power and influence would solve the debacle. The Wayfort feels worthless and easily gotten, despite the game supposedly not being a power fantasy. Trials in Tainted Space, but a bit toned down would be enough.

Struggling like a son of a bitch in Wizardry makes everything feel sweet when your party gets very powerful and every single one of your members can cast mage spells. Actual progression. No more save scumming to keep me safe from packs of bandits.

But a power fantasy is about wish fulfillment. You can absolutely do that in 40k depending on who is writing it. Just because the world itself is fucked up. Doesn't mean you can't do things to make sure the person taking centerstage. Has a big enough dick to plop on the table. Hell with so much bullshit in that world. That is a whole ass playground for one. Also, being powerful and well connected is not the same? Using what metric? Those two things are tools. How you're allowed to use them is where the fantasy part comes into play. Not everyone's idea of a power fantasy is about becoming superman or the one true god at the end... though they are the typical endings chosen.

I'm sorry but Savin doesn't have a leg to stand on. He and the rest of the goof troop couldn't write it. Or they just wanted to do something different. But that's a them issue, not a power fantasy problem. Then to top it all off. Looking at the comment from Savin. What he brought up doesn't even stop a power fantasy from happening. Like he seems to have this narrow view that you gotta win 100% or it don't count.

 

[benisfug]

The point is that it doesn't need power fantasy to not be garbage. Like I said, a toned down Trials in Tainted Space could work. They only needed to look at TiTS and tone it down a little for CoC2 and the game would feel good without giving in to power fantasy. They went the opposite way and made the MC completely irrelevant since we're not needed for anything and the gods completely irredeemable trash for allowing Kasyrra to do whatever the fuck she wants.

Keep in mind that Savin's idea of "power fantasy" is heavily tainted by old drama bullshit which he uses as justification to fuck over the player character out of pure spite towards you the irl player.

 

[CrimsonSongbird1982]

The point is that it doesn't need power fantasy to not be garbage. Like I said, a toned down Trials in Tainted Space could work. They only needed to look at TiTS and tone it down a little for CoC2 and the game would feel good without giving in to power fantasy. They went the opposite way and made the MC completely irrelevant since we're not needed for anything and the gods completely irredeemable trash for allowing Kasyrra to do whatever the fuck she wants.

Ok gotcha. I do agree with that statement. Being a power fantasy wouldn't save the writing. I just more wanted to point out that Savin doesn't fully understand his own argument against power fantasies.

4. The Dragon Age trilogy (dont mention the blasphemy of the new one)

Veilguard would've been better if it was its own IP. I know the game is lucky it not only came out but in such a stable condition, but the elf illuminati thing is stupid and it invalidated every game prior on top of wiping out every other character and setting. RIP Bioware. At least it maintained the tradition of changing the Darkspawn aesthetically every game despite the first one nailing it. The concept art was way better.

Keep in mind that Savin's idea of "power fantasy" is heavily tainted by old drama bullshit which he uses as justification to fuck over the player character out of pure spite towards you the irl player.

That describes all his writing and decisions not influenced by his two fetishes. And Tobs.

Isn't the Act 2 Main Quest Finale planned to come out next month? I wonder if it'll be so bad it inspires a hundred pages of complaints, or so boring that it gets treated with the same fanfare as Agni updates do. I'm betting it's a half assed quest with piss poor balancing for a supposedly dramatic showdown and Kas will reveal herself like she wasn't obvious and crabwalk to her final boss dungeon that has a velvet rope blocking access. Also Tollus will be there for some reason.

 

[Jbuster]

Keep in mind that Savin's idea of "power fantasy" is heavily tainted by old drama bullshit which he uses as justification to fuck over the player character out of pure spite towards you the irl player.

Pretty much this, Savin's main issue is that he's angry at the player for wanting to become ultra powerful in a setting that is all about having the chance to be all powerful, same reason he changes stuff when someone finds a way to beat Kasyrra or any other overpowered enemy despite those being instances of the player actually conquering the game and doing something amazing through effort

Furthermore there's the narrative problem of your champion being the focus of the history and possible savior of these furry monsters while also being told that the role of the champion is not that important, while the other important people do almost nothing. Being represented as someone weak in front of the world is not the issue, is the poor execution, is Tollus getting away like a cartoon villain every time you are close to finish him, is having Tollus as the de facto main bad guy when he possess zero aura to carry the role, while the real bad guy oscillates between loving girlfriend and Mao Ze Futa Dong

Also, arbitrary choices done to make the player pick between two outcomes are bad, for the simple fact that in other games, when forced to make a moral based judgment there's a real moral issue behind, while here, there's nothing of that, nothing of what you do is truly that evil in the long run because the world already feels tainted. Corrupted Drifa is Driffa in e-girl mode, corrupted hive got the sovieted out of reality, Viviane becomes a demon because she can't detect corruption without your help and so on

Is the clumsy execution of a power fantasy that also doesn't want to be a power fantasy that makes the tone of the game feels off

I really wish that dude could get over his issues because, honestly, who the fuck would want to add IRL drama into something they are supposed to enjoy?, if I were angry or bitter against some vague group of online randoms the less thing I would want would be to have them as the focus of my entertainment

 

[yuzuyo]

Also, being powerful and well connected is not the same? Using what metric?

What? If can walk up to you, fill your head with lead, drag your body into a ditch and set it on fire, are you living a power fantasy? Geralt can like die a chump to a vampire in Witcher 3 if he tries his patience. Doesn't even need to be antagonistic, just annoy him.

If you have decisive rough wake up calls, choices with problematic outcomes either way, how is it a power fantasy? Is anyone's wish fulfillment to be a normal creature, unable to save everyone and having to live with the consequences? That's how it usually goes for 40K, including for the beloved Ciaphas Cain. Badass who constantly eats dirt.

And I didn't say it's not possible to write power fantasy in the setting. It's fiction, you can write anything you fucking want, even if it comes off as nonsensical and moronic. That's completely irrelevant. The point is that being powerful and well connected is not the same as living a power fantasy, especially if you're soft enough for a bullet to get in and put you in your place. Or soft enough for a tyranid to split you in two. Even if you're a space marine.

It's garbage escapism in its core and antithesis of good literature. It is itself the issue. Not the game's issue, but I don't blame Savin for disliking it.

1. Baldur gate trilogy.
2. The fallout series.
3. The original Mass Effect trilogy.
4. The Dragon Age trilogy

I really don't see how most those are exceptional examples of writing. Baldur's gate is corny crap, but I enjoy them despite this. The first game has barely any writing, the companions don't do anything and we have no moral decision worth shit, exactly what I expect from Bioware (KOTOR1). The second game is better, but not really interesting, much like the first.

Fallout 2 is the closest to a power fantasy of the main games (except 4, I don't care about it), but it's also the most silly game of the franchise, excluding 3. It's not nearly as serious as the first game and I don't think a game that can frequently look like a comedy show is an exceptional example of writing. New Vegas is much better written, but the game makes a point of not giving a perfect ending. The closest is the NCR, I'd say, and that's a faction ending. Yes Man turns freeside into a shithole. The courier is like the terminator, but that's most video game protagonists if we're being honest. At least outside cutscenes.

Mass Effect and Dragon Age are very nice. Not what I'd call exceptional writing, though. They still don't come close to Planescape and Disco Elysium when it comes to how well written they are. I think New Vegas is better than both of these franchises, too. The settings are cool, but the stories told in them are not really impactful. Mass Effect is a thousand times more impactful than Dragon Age, though.

Now, Planescape and Disco Elysium are fucking great. But not really power fantasies. KOTOR2 is also great and closer to a power fantasy than those, but honestly, wish fulfillment will always hold back any work. The best works are about how shit life is sometimes and how we deal with its problems realistically. No space for escapism wankery.

 

[GS21]

Him being passive aggressive to Oreo also makes no sense either. I'm not on the discord as I don't wanna surround myself with that shit atmosphere, but Oreo I haven't heard being even remotely bothersome, and slaved over the doc for 2 whole years just dedicated to getting something many people wanted and were even begging for written.
Literally what reason is there to be smarmy towards a rando who is putting others money where their mouth is and giving players what they asked for? I don't get his asshole mentality. If it was consistent with the quality thing and said more on the lines of "There wasn't anything too wrong with it, the quality of the doc just didn't meet the standards of submission bc *insert idk maybe like it had a bunch of typos or grammar issues here or something or whatever*", and even then it's like...

What happened to going through submission docs and giving suggestion comments to various points within those docs for the authors to fix up as you go? What about working together with the damn author so that the doc submitted CAN be of standard? Not to mention, as stated, the consistency issues with this shit given so much bad writing (like typos and shit) get through as is anyway. I remember during TiTS's prime a whole thing with the community at large was people going through submission docs and giving feedback in the comments of them (not just the forums, a whole thing is to open suggestions in the docs itself so people can pick at and even give edits for any inconsistencies within them to be approved, it's the first thing people ask for when given a doc on there even) to try and etch it into be better means of submission, ya know, giving feedback to the writer like community driven submissions should be handled. Do they just not do that anymore? :Y

I'm rambling again ik but man this shit is really bothering me. Where's the "control" part of this quality control they're so incensed to do with others but not Mr. Pet "I hate player agency" TOBs over there? Or even Savin towards his own shit? It's again, no wonder community writers have petered off so bad if that's how they're being treated now.

They got a little complacent. I've only just interacted with the Leothran hunters encounters and instantly remembered the guy bringing up the fact that the "butt fuck" scene did not include any anal, and is naturally littered with typos.

As for submissions, going over them and painstakingly pointing out issues requires a lot of time and effort, especially considering the varying quality of community submissions not made by the regulars, which is in all honesty, understandable.
Babying other people through their submission was never in the job description, especially considering that almost everyone would rather pour that effort into their own projects.

You mean to tell me that the game that brags about total freedom, sexual deviance, in a fantasy world full of races, creatures, magic, ways to become inmortal and change your race, the game that allows you to play with any kind of body you want....you mean to tell me that a game that have everything for a power fantasy dont do power fantasy?

It's almost sad watching the glimmer in your eye gradually disappear. I know people told you to make your own opinions but boy are you in for a disappointing ride.
Wait until you learn they removed racial powers because they thought that was gonna break their awesome and engaging combat system, and that people were gonna stick to a single race to metagame, lamenting over the fact that (for some reason) they would not be able to stick to their race of choice due to not being "meta viable". All in a singleplayer fantasy roleplaying game, mind you, where the meta means jack squat since it's under the assumption that you're playing this for the "amazing and engaging" story.

 

[yuzuyo]

Keep in mind that Savin's idea of "power fantasy" is heavily tainted by old drama bullshit which he uses as justification to fuck over the player character out of pure spite towards you the irl player.

Yeah, I'm not saying the game has no problems when it comes to the importance of the main character. It's genuinely shit in that regard. When they made it clear that the gods can just end Kasyrra's plans and how the MC is not really needed, things just went down the shitter. "Muh soul," just go hide in a hole and wait for the problem to go away, like in some of the bad endings.

I understand Savin's problem with power fantasy, I don't think of it highly, but this is a porn game at the end of the day. He COULD do it properly and without power fantasy, or he could just stop pretending he's writing good literature and adopt the power fantasy, since excluding it did fuck all positive for his setting and stories. Besides, we can still fuck princesses here and there, and the whole world is a hedonistic shithole even without demons. Verisimilitude is dead as it is.

 

[Chris20]

I really don't see how most those are exceptional examples of writing. Baldur's gate is corny crap, but I enjoy them despite this. The first game has barely any writing, the companions don't do anything and we have no moral decision worth shit, exactly what I expect from Bioware (KOTOR1). The second game is better, but not really interesting, much like the first.

Fallout 2 is the closest to a power fantasy of the main games (except 4, I don't care about it), but it's also the most silly game of the franchise, excluding 3. It's not nearly as serious as the first game and I don't think a game that can frequently look like a comedy show is an exceptional example of writing. New Vegas is much better written, but the game makes a point of not giving a perfect ending. The closest is the NCR, I'd say, and that's a faction ending. Yes Man turns freeside into a shithole. The courier is like the terminator, but that's most video game protagonists if we're being honest. At least outside cutscenes.

Mass Effect and Dragon Age are very nice. Not what I'd call exceptional writing, though. They still don't come close to Planescape and Disco Elysium when it comes to how well written they are. I think New Vegas is better than both of these franchises, too. The settings are cool, but the stories told in them are not really impactful. Mass Effect is a thousand times more impactful than Dragon Age, though.

Now, Planescape and Disco Elysium are fucking great. But not really power fantasies. KOTOR2 is also great and closer to a power fantasy than those, but honestly, wish fulfillment will always hold back any work. The best works are about how shit life is sometimes and how we deal with its problems realistically. No space for escapism wankery.

1. You're right. Planescape: Torment and Disco Elysium are in a league of their own when it comes to pure writing. I'm not trying to argue that the dialogue in Baldur's Gate is as profound. But that's the thing. You're holding a perfectly cooked, gourmet burger up to the standard of a delicate, complex sushi platter and saying the burger fails because it isn't sushi.

2. Baldur's Gate and KOTOR 1. You call it "corny crap," and honestly? Sometimes it is. But that "corny" hero's journey is a classic for a reason. It's not trying to be a gritty deconstruction; it's trying to make you feel like the hero in a classic epic. You can enjoy it despite the corn, or maybe even because of it. It's comfort food.

3. Now, on Fallout 2 and New Vegas. You're spot on about Fallout 2 being silly. Despite this, it still have lore and a good story to analyze. And with New Vegas, sure, i agree, the lack of a "perfect ending" is the whole point. That's what makes it a mature power fantasy, not a weak one.

4. "Wish fulfillment will always hold back any work."

I fundamentally disagree with this. All fiction is wish fulfillment. The wish in Disco Elysium is to understand yourself and the broken world around you. The wish in Planescape is to find meaning and redemption. The wish in Mass Effect is to be a leader who unites the galaxy.
You're privileging one type of wish (intellectual, philosophical clarity) over another (agency, heroic competence). The "best works" aren't only the ones that show us how shit life is. Sometimes, the most valuable work is the one that gives us the emotional fuel to deal with how shit life is and the examples i give you are still well writen but with other purposes.

 

[yuzuyo]

Sometimes, the most valuable work is the one that gives us the emotional fuel to deal with how shit life

I find that giving us contrast makes it much more impactful. My favourite book is Les Misérables. It constantly makes you feel as bad as its characters, but it'll also make you feel good when these characters experience joy. Almost like making us work for it, seeing how bad it can get, before giving us respite. It feels incredible.

I think the problem with this disagreement is how to define power fantasy. It's not really defined so trying to discuss what is and isn't can be a pain in the ass if we're not talking about extreme cases.

I'd classify it as extreme wish fulfillment with no space for characters who are known to make mistakes and have to constantly correct them. Realistic characters, really. Power fantasies just don't feel like they could realistically happen.

 

[YouShallNotLol]

What? If can walk up to you, fill your head with lead, drag your body into a ditch and set it on fire, are you living a power fantasy? Geralt can like die a chump to a vampire in Witcher 3 if he tries his patience. Doesn't even need to be antagonistic, just annoy him.

If you have decisive rough wake up calls, choices with problematic outcomes either way, how is it a power fantasy? Is anyone's wish fulfillment to be a normal creature, unable to save everyone and having to live with the consequences? That's how it usually goes for 40K, including for the beloved Ciaphas Cain. Badass who constantly eats dirt.

And I didn't say it's not possible to write power fantasy in the setting. It's fiction, you can write anything you fucking want, even if it comes off as nonsensical and moronic. That's completely irrelevant. The point is that being powerful and well connected is not the same as living a power fantasy, especially if you're soft enough for a bullet to get in and put you in your place. Or soft enough for a tyranid to split you in two. Even if you're a space marine.

It's garbage escapism in its core and antithesis of good literature. It is itself the issue. Not the game's issue, but I don't blame Savin for disliking it.


I really don't see how most those are exceptional examples of writing. Baldur's gate is corny crap, but I enjoy them despite this. The first game has barely any writing, the companions don't do anything and we have no moral decision worth shit, exactly what I expect from Bioware (KOTOR1). The second game is better, but not really interesting, much like the first.

Fallout 2 is the closest to a power fantasy of the main games (except 4, I don't care about it), but it's also the most silly game of the franchise, excluding 3. It's not nearly as serious as the first game and I don't think a game that can frequently look like a comedy show is an exceptional example of writing. New Vegas is much better written, but the game makes a point of not giving a perfect ending. The closest is the NCR, I'd say, and that's a faction ending. Yes Man turns freeside into a shithole. The courier is like the terminator, but that's most video game protagonists if we're being honest. At least outside cutscenes.

Mass Effect and Dragon Age are very nice. Not what I'd call exceptional writing, though. They still don't come close to Planescape and Disco Elysium when it comes to how well written they are. I think New Vegas is better than both of these franchises, too. The settings are cool, but the stories told in them are not really impactful. Mass Effect is a thousand times more impactful than Dragon Age, though.

Now, Planescape and Disco Elysium are fucking great. But not really power fantasies. KOTOR2 is also great and closer to a power fantasy than those, but honestly, wish fulfillment will always hold back any work. The best works are about how shit life is sometimes and how we deal with its problems realistically. No space for escapism wankery.

You have no idea what power fantasy is, do you? And being so weirdly aggressive at the same time about it, you got a personal vendetta or something?

Case in point: Dune.
A seemingly regular guy, suddenly discovers that he is a prophesied god-emperor of mankind, and goes on an epic revenge journey against the killers of his father.
Tolkien hated it when he first read Dune.
And it's a world-renowned classic.

 

[yuzuyo]

You have no idea what power fantasy is, do you? And being so weirdly aggressive at the same time about it, you got a personal vendetta or something?

Do me a favour and define it for me. Go ahead.

Dune is renowned when it comes to science fiction. Like renowned fantasy novels are, at their respective niches. Usually by praising the world building. Fuck all to do with how it's written. It receives praise for its universe, not for its intellectual value, get real.

 

[Chris20]

Power fantasies just don't feel like they could realistically happen.

To be honest, "Realism" is a Trap. All stories are unrealistic in their own way. Even fiction works like les misérables feels heightened, theatrical narrative designed to explore philosophical ideas about justice, mercy, and redemption.
Honestly, power fantasys are more about being emotionally true, the "realism" of a power fantasy isn't in the events themselves, but in the core emotional experience it provides: the thrill of competence, the satisfaction of mastery, the weight of responsibility, the joy of earned victory. You can make a very relatable story if you know how emotions works.
Besides, sometimes real events are even more crazy than fiction.

 

[YouShallNotLol]

Do me a favour and define it for me. Go ahead.

Power fantasy is a literary tool that allows for wish fulfillment, be it outplaying opponents in mind games or physically dominating foes in battle.
Power fantasy as a genre has roots going far back to mythological heroes.
They outsmart gods, overpower monstrous beasts, sleep with multitude of women and rule over entire kingdoms.
What are humanity's collective mythos if not power fantasy trips?

Dune is renowned when it comes to science fiction. Like renowned fantasy novels are, in their respective niche. Usually by praising the world building. Fuck all to do with how it's written. It receives praise for its universe, not for its intellectual value, get real.

Next you'll be telling me that Lord of The Rings is a generic fantasy flick only liked because of Tolkien's political views.
Now I know for sure that you are just a deranged troll.
Go rot in Savin's cuck dungeon.

 

[ChubbyFatBoy]

What? If can walk up to you, fill your head with lead, drag your body into a ditch and set it on fire, are you living a power fantasy? Geralt can like die a chump to a vampire in Witcher 3 if he tries his patience. Doesn't even need to be antagonistic, just annoy him.

If you have decisive rough wake up calls, choices with problematic outcomes either way, how is it a power fantasy? Is anyone's wish fulfillment to be a normal creature, unable to save everyone and having to live with the consequences? That's how it usually goes for 40K, including for the beloved Ciaphas Cain. Badass who constantly eats dirt.

And I didn't say it's not possible to write power fantasy in the setting. It's fiction, you can write anything you fucking want, even if it comes off as nonsensical and moronic. That's completely irrelevant. The point is that being powerful and well connected is not the same as living a power fantasy, especially if you're soft enough for a bullet to get in and put you in your place. Or soft enough for a tyranid to split you in two. Even if you're a space marine.

It's garbage escapism in its core and antithesis of good literature. It is itself the issue. Not the game's issue, but I don't blame Savin for disliking it.

....what? The fantasy part would be you NOT being shot in the head, dragged to a ditch and set on fire. You being vulnerable would not be an issue, because it wouldn't happen. Which is why it would be a power fantasy. You don't have to be invulnerable or superman. Similar to Savin, you also seem to have a narrow view on what a power fantasy can be.

But you are correct. You didn't say "it's not possible to write power fantasy in the setting." But you did specifically say this

To give a different example, look at WH40K: would say a space marine is an example of power fantasy? I wouldn't.

To which I responded to. Because someone has to write that marine. Which opens it up to power fantasy. Which is why I said what I said. Outside of even at default. Yes, space marine would absolutely be a power fantasy for a lot of people.

But if someone wanted to have a lot of money and influence. Playing the entire world like a chess game for fun in the shadows. I guess that wouldn't constitute as a power fantasy as well? I mean they can die. They can have setbacks. I mean sure they might be puppeteering the whole world but.... eh. Like idk how to tell you this but.... yea that's not how that works. You seem to be stuck on the idea of requiring superhuman with nothing being able to stop you. While I'm using the idea of power and fantasy, which comes in different flavors.

 

[yuzuyo]

Power fantasy is a literary tool that allows for wish fulfillment, be it outplaying opponents in mind games or physically dominating foes in battle.
Power fantasy as a genre has roots going far back to mythological heroes.
They outsmart gods, overpower monstrous beasts, sleep with multitude of women and rule over entire kingdoms.

Fucking hell. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I was being generous by not claiming it is nothing but Gary Stu garbage and here you come to make my life so much easier. That's what you want. Escapism trash for people unable to discern anything at all. I'm sure Savin's living in a power fantasy right now, keeping you from living vicariously through his video games.

Next you'll be telling me that Lord of The Rings is a generic fantasy flick only liked because of Tolkien's political views.

Why are you bringing anything political into this? Herbert is not known for being an exceptional writer. That's a fact. He's known for his world building. No one gives a flying fuck about the stories by themselves. If you remove the stories from the universe and set it in the real world, it loses all of its appeal. You know jack shit.

You seem to be stuck on the idea of requiring superhuman with nothing being able to stop you.

No. I'm saying it's not necessarily a power fantasy. It can be, it can not be. The point is that if the writer so desires, such characters can easily bite the dust. Khal Drogo was living the life, until he wasn't. He committed a mistake and died for it. A space marine will feel powerful until a tyranid decides to impale him starting from his ass. Powerful and well connected is not the same as untouchable in any shape or form to keep the status quo or keeping us from making mistakes, so we COULD have a powerful and well connected champion without turning the game into a power fantasy if Savin so desired. He doesn't and that's the problem. We don't need power fantasy, we need engagement without devs acting like cunts and antagonizing their fanbase. Or he could make it a power fantasy. We're already halfway there, considering the champion sleep with gods already.

 

[GS21]

Honestly it stopped being about the player and their agency halfway through development, invalidating all this lovely power fantasy discourse. We're genuinely just soft-experiencing "nextgame" where it's Savin and the goon squad's DnD game with inconsequential cookie cutter "choices".
Or at the very least it just feels like it.

 

[SatanHGG]

I think the best fantasy of having power is where things are hard and you have a strong disadvantage, but through hard work and development, you overcome the disproportionately strong.
In a way, that's the demons in CoC1. Even all their strongest combined couldn't do anything to Marae, but they could poison the land and the lake and spread out their attacks so Marae was as spread thing as possible, bleeding her through attrition until she her influence was basically gone.
Being weaker than the opposition and still winning is the best power fantasy.
And like the demons did to Marae, the player shows their capacity to beat them despite seeming so much lesser. Though, it's not particularly hard to get OP there

A battle you're meant to lose but can win is a great opportunity. Overcome the odds, not be so powerful as to not have any odds you lose.