Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.8.4] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[Daken9]

That the wolf from tits? Ngl never even gave her a chance. Soon as i realized she was one of Savin's and his tried and true two dollar skank archetype to boot i was out of her shop in 2.6 seconds

 

[mrttao]

In CoC1 and TiTS, the MC initially has something that they need to do. Something that drives them throughout their long journey. Even if it's skewed by the player's choices or the story itself. Whether it's saving your village by being a champion in another world or finding your dad's keys across the universe to reclaim your birth rite, it's still something that pushes the MC forward.

In CoC2, they is no such goal. There's no real rhyme or reason for the MC to do what they are doing. From what I remember, the MC was just passing through Hawkethorne and wanted a place to stay for the night. They were on their own journey. Doing what? No one knows. But it came to a halt when a pink catgirl asked for help finding her sister. That's it. There was no pre-existing goal, no driving force behind why MC was even there in the first place. This is just a sidequest that's gone on way too long. Because once her sister is found, the quest is over. There's no longer a real reason to stay.

It has nothing to do with Cait being the town's bike and not the MC's personal pocket pussy, but has everything to do with the adventure being solely based on whether or not her sister is found. The main goal and drive of the entire adventure is Cait's not the MC's. Think about everything the MC has done up to this point. Cait heavily suggests tasks because it could lead to freeing her sister, whether she initiated it or another charater asked for help.

That, plus the dev's "power fantasy is bad" nonsense means that MC is always a chump instead of a champion.
Only NPCs can be champions. And in fact the authors all have their champion self inserts in the game whose power towers beyond the heaven.

For example, one of the dev's has an SI who is 9 feet tall and can 1 hit kill the final boss. He is explicitly better at sex than the MC, and explicitly has a bigger cock. The reason he doesn't single handedly beat the demon invasion is that he just doesn't care/view them as a threat.

 

[thecatcameback]

That the wolf from tits? Ngl never even gave her a chance. Soon as i realized she was one of Savin's and his tried and true two dollar skank archetype to boot i was out of her shop in 2.6 seconds

The white haired wolf, yeah. But she's always offering the player sex scenes with other women randomly. She tosses her girlfriend at Steele to bang, and her girlfriend starts simping for the player too. She's just a wingman.

 

[Lucky_I]

That, plus the dev's "power fantasy is bad" nonsense means that MC is always a chump instead of a champion.
Only NPCs can be champions. And in fact the authors all have their champion self inserts in the game whose power towers beyond the heaven.

For example, one of the dev's has an SI who is 9 feet tall and can 1 hit kill the final boss. He is explicitly better at sex than the MC, and explicitly has a bigger cock. The reason he doesn't single handedly beat the demon invasion is that he just doesn't care/view them as a threat.

Damn, those whole 2 other champions we've met. That's certainly a lot.

 

[Mandoto]

That the wolf from tits? Ngl never even gave her a chance. Soon as i realized she was one of Savin's and his tried and true two dollar skank archetype to boot i was out of her shop in 2.6 seconds

I think less than half of Anno's content at this point is/was written by Savin, and while the shit he wrote for her does stain the character since she's basically Cait in space (seems like all these authors can do is copy paste the same two or three characters btw), but some other people have taken over writing her as more of a wingman, William wrote some pretty good scenes for her not long ago.

 

[Biostar]

Honestly my only problem with Anno is that Savin felt the need to establish that she fucked your dad once.

 

[Kroenen12]

This whole quest is basically this

 

[NaturalEnclave]

I am going to throw (another) hot take, but on the topic of Cait... I actually do not hate the healslut as much as everyone else.
Her scenes are pretty hot and in my opinion, she serves as a pretty great introduction to the world and tone of CoC2. Her missing sister is a serious issue, but she isn't turning into a soap-opera and still has a lighthearted, carefree character. Cait saying the she is willing to fuck anyone is also something I felt is on the same wavelength as me starting the game - it's a porn game that is literally called "corruption of champions", I ain't expecting a monogamous lovey-dovey romance as if it's some dating sim VN. I expect a porn-sandbox where I fuck anything that looks hot and Cait looks hot. She (at least the DCL design) looks decent - horny, but not too out there, no enormous cocks, only 15% furry, lewd outfit that makes some sense in lore. A slutty catgirl companion that might agree to any fetish I propose to her? Sign me in, that sounds hot.

That's not to say I think hatred for Cait is undeserved. Being the first companion that is also kinda mandatory to survive unless you really know what you are doing, it makes sense for her to be the most developed to showcase CoC2 promised "improvements" in making companions actually matter in the story. Plus, I assume that people on Fenoxo's Forums do like her, so it's not like more content with her is something that causes uproar for the fanbase they care about. The problem is that it often becomes too much, where she takes too much spotlight and feels like she is the actual main character.

In my previous posts, I did imply that personally I wouldn't find this to be a terrible thing (I mean, I've played games where playable is just there to be alongside an NPC who is the actual main character with an arc to go through), but for this to work that character should be... actually great and Cait isn't great, she is just a decent fit for an average porn game companion. And that's a subjective opinion, some people have higher standards.

The main problem with Cait and the story is that the entire fucking plot hook of CoC2 relies entirely on the idea that player will like Cait and will go on a quest to help her. There aren't many reasons to do so otherwise, you ain't even a local to truly care about the conflict (and the game not being a power-fantasy and featuring OP NPCs makes you wonder why are you even here). As someone who tried writing a story for a game like CoC2, I feel like whoever was responsible for this part fell into a narrative trap. They were too afraid to give MC too much concrete details and aspects that would give real justification for you to go on your adventure, so they left the backstory as simple as possible for you to fill the gaps yourself. At the same time, they were too convinced that Cait's struggle and the treat of Kas (or MC's crush on her???) will be enough of a motivation for you to care about the main story (it probably is for some).

There are games where you have to go to specific direction for the story to work. Shepard has to find and stop Saren. But that's because he has actual concrete personality that the player has a limited control over. Courier has to get to New Vegas. But because the game has enough freedom and angles, you can create an enormous amount of headcannons as to why you need to. CoC2 doesn't go both routes. MC is bland and has no reasons to care. You can hardly make your own reasons for this because you barely have any choices or freedom. So when your entire plot works only because "MC is a good champ who is willing to help a slutty catgirl out and stop a horrifying, powerful demon.", you have to wonder why are you even here, when it's clear that Cait is the one who actually matters and who the writer wants to developer and move through the plot.

 

[Tau_Iota]

Damn, those whole 2 other champions we've met. That's certainly a lot.

Asking the player to suspend their disbelief once for a "champion that is better than you, can ggez the BBEG" is a bit much, but possible. But two champions? It leaves you standing there like "Why am I even here? There's absolutely no way there's two much bigger threats out there, and if there were couldn't two of these champions handle them and then Kasyrra?" It's not even like a "No one can be the hero but me!" thing (edit: and that's not even a wrong thing to feel). It's like playing a LotR game at the Battle of the Morannon, but you're not Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, or Gimli. You're just some Gondorian soldier, who's a bit better at fighting than the other soldiers.

Honestly my only problem with Anno is that Savin felt the need to establish that she fucked your dad once.

I think your dad fucked a lot of the people you run into, I can't remember. It's weird but it's also kinda funny.

 

[Raf-Raf]

I am going to throw (another) hot take, but on the topic of Cait... I actually do not hate the healslut as much as everyone else.
Her scenes are pretty hot and in my opinion, she serves as a pretty great introduction to the world and tone of CoC2. Her missing sister is a serious issue, but she isn't turning into a soap-opera and still has a lighthearted, carefree character. Cait saying the she is willing to fuck anyone is also something I felt is on the same wavelength as me starting the game - it's a porn game that is literally called "corruption of champions", I ain't expecting a monogamous lovey-dovey romance as if it's some dating sim VN. I expect a porn-sandbox where I fuck anything that looks hot and Cait looks hot. She (at least the DCL design) looks decent - horny, but not too out there, no enormous cocks, only 15% furry, lewd outfit that makes some sense in lore. A slutty catgirl companion that might agree to any fetish I propose to her? Sign me in, that sounds hot.

That's not to say I think hatred for Cait is undeserved. Being the first companion that is also kinda mandatory to survive unless you really know what you are doing, it makes sense for her to be the most developed to showcase CoC2 promised "improvements" in making companions actually matter in the story. Plus, I assume that people on Fenoxo's Forums do like her, so it's not like more content with her is something that causes uproar for the fanbase they care about. The problem is that it often becomes too much, where she takes too much spotlight and feels like she is the actual main character.

In my previous posts, I did imply that personally I wouldn't find this to be a terrible thing (I mean, I've played games where playable is just there to be alongside an NPC who is the actual main character with an arc to go through), but for this to work that character should be... actually great and Cait isn't great, she is just a decent fit for an average porn game companion. And that's a subjective opinion, some people have higher standards.

The main problem with Cait and the story is that the entire fucking plot hook of CoC2 relies entirely on the idea that player will like Cait and will go on a quest to help her. There aren't many reasons to do so otherwise, you ain't even a local to truly care about the conflict (and the game not being a power-fantasy and featuring OP NPCs makes you wonder why are you even here). As someone who tried writing a story for a game like CoC2, I feel like whoever was responsible for this part fell into a narrative trap. They were too afraid to give MC too much concrete details and aspects that would give real justification for you to go on your adventure, so they left the backstory as simple as possible for you to fill the gaps yourself. At the same time, they were too convinced that Cait's struggle and the treat of Kas (or MC's crush on her???) will be enough of a motivation for you to care about the main story (it probably is for some).

There are games where you have to go to specific direction for the story to work. Shepard has to find and stop Saren. But that's because he has actual concrete personality that the player has a limited control over. Courier has to get to New Vegas. But because the game has enough freedom and angles, you can create an enormous amount of headcannons as to why you need to. CoC2 doesn't go both routes. MC is bland and has no reasons to care. You can hardly make your own reasons for this because you barely have any choices or freedom. So when your entire plot works only because "MC is a good champ who is willing to help a slutty catgirl out and stop a horrifying, powerful demon.", you have to wonder why are you even here, when it's clear that Cait is the one who actually matters and who the writer wants to developer and move through the plot.

It's one of those shit DnD campaigns where the DM's OC is one of the main and core characters in the campaign.
We don't hate her 'cause she's a healsut, we hate her 'cause of how she's written.

You can't reject the bitch at the start, it leads to a game over.
You can leave her in south pole and the dialogue scene in north pole will magically make her spawn there like she's never left you.
She's literally a child raised and gaslit by a cult she thinks is a righteous religion that raises kids to be literal prostitutes serving a deity, good luck telling me incest is worse than that, ain't no way I'm building that temple after realizing that before.
Did I forgot to mention she's a princess too? Inb4 we get another questline that turns her to Etheryn 2.0 except it's in a sand kingdom this time or smth.

She's also written to be this in-your-face love interest that any shallow player will definitely be a fan favorite 'cause nothing screams waifu than a character with big dimensions for body parts and no dimensions in character depth.

You can tell Cait in her face that you bang Kasyrra and you prefer it that way, she won't give a shit aside from the "You bad bad" line, she still joins your party.
There goes her morals and any would-be character depth of actually thinking and feeling like a character who actually gives a shit about something.

PC: I think I'm into Kasyrra even if she wants to do this whole world domination and taking your sister and all.
Cait: But she's evil! Anyway...

 

[Lucky_I]

Asking the player to suspend their disbelief once for a "champion that is better than you, can ggez the BBEG" is a bit much, but possible. But two champions? It leaves you standing there like "Why am I even here? There's absolutely no way there's two much bigger threats out there, and if there were couldn't two of these champions handle them and then Kasyrra?" It's not even like a "No one can be the hero but me!" thing. It's like playing a LotR game at the Battle of the Morannon, but you're not Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, or Gimli. You're just some Gondorian soldier, who's a bit better at fighting than the other soldiers.

Spoiler: I was being facetious

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[thecatcameback]

Shadow the Edge Fox over in the Kitsune tree can handle Kas too.

 

[Tau_Iota]

Spoiler: I was being facetious

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I was unaware you meant Calise, but quite a few people are capable of wiping Kas no problem. The ones that come to mind first are the Baroness and the sleepy snake. I'm almost positive there's more though.

Also, *do. No need to be facetious.

 

[NaturalEnclave]

She's literally a child raised and gaslit by a cult she thinks is a righteous religion that raises kids to be literal prostitutes serving a deity, good luck telling me incest is worse than that, ain't no way I'm building that temple after realizing that before.

Honestly, I think it's one part of the lore I totally skipped over. It is kinda fucked up. Seriously, all they needed to do to make it probably alright is to just make it a part of their culture or something. Ain't nothing wrong with a fantasy race/nation that treats sex as something casual and something they should spread. Then just make Cait join the religion willingly and establish that the religion is the result of this culture being so open to sex. I don't get why they needed to make this part of bubbly, cheerful cat girl this dark, as if it's supposed to be a serious commentary on the nature and potential danger religion or something.

She's also written to be this in-your-face love interest that any shallow player will definitely be a fan favorite

I mean, I am a bit shallow, so I am fine with her, thought if I had to pick an actual favorite it would probably be Lusamine even thought she isn't the most brilliant character. She is fun and has a nice design and that's enough for me.

You can tell Cait in her face that you bang Kasyrra and you prefer it that way, she won't give a shit aside from the "You bad bad" line.
There goes her morals and any would-be character depth of actually thinking and feeling like a character who actually gives a shit about something.

To me this defo feels like the game being completely unable to commit to serious consequences because it would require massive plot changes they aren't willing to make. Kinda how in

Spoiler: Fallout 3

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The amount of changes they would probably have to make to account for Cait leaving is too big. And, much worse for Savin, it means that a huge portion of the playerbase might lose Cait and her content forever and this is not something he can allow.

 

[Raf-Raf]

Honestly, I think it's one part of the lore I totally skipped over. It is kinda fucked up. Seriously, all they needed to do to make it probably alright is to just make it a part of their culture or something. Ain't nothing wrong with a fantasy race/nation that treats sex as something casual and something they should spread. Then just make Cait join the religion willingly and establish that the religion is the result of this culture being so open to sex. I don't get why they needed to make this part of bubbly, cheerful cat girl this dark, as if it's supposed to be a serious commentary on the nature and potential danger religion or something.


I mean, I am a bit shallow, so I am fine with her, thought if I had to pick an actual favorite it would probably be Lusamine even thought she isn't the most brilliant character. She is fun and has a nice design and that's enough for me.


To me this defo feels like the game being completely unable to commit to serious consequences because it would require massive plot changes they aren't willing to make. Kinda how in

Spoiler: Fallout 3

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The amount of changes they would probably have to make to account for Cait leaving is too big. And, much worse for Savin, it means that a huge portion of the playerbase might lose Cait and her content forever and this is not something he can allow.

I mean, they also suffer the classic case of Indie-game-itis where dark / sad = DEEP characters.
It's like making a souls NPC except they're just depressed with nothing behind it.

Ayo, I see that you're also interested in the exceedingly rare ones.
Though I don't think we'll ever get that questline to make 'er fertile.

Expecting these devs to write a grand lore that actually makes sense is the same as expecting the same asteroid that killed the dinosaurs to hit again.
Funnily enough, it's choices like those that makes a character actually feel like one.

Just like the fellow that used Dragon Age Origins as an example.
Best bro Alistair won't give a shit no matter how close you two are if you want to make Loghain alive.
The CoC2 counterpart of that should've been the part where we confess that we're banging Kasyrra.
It's like her "caring" for her sister is more of a plot device with more plot holes than a cheese wheel while the writers actually forgot that she is a character in the first place.

 

[mrttao]

I am going to throw (another) hot take, but on the topic of Cait... I actually do not hate the healslut as much as everyone else.

There is "character as a person (pretend they are real)" and "character as a fictional entity created by author for a reason".

Cait reminds me of Sasuke. In that, if they were a real person I wouldn't hate them. I would pity susuke, and in cait's case I would pity and be disgusted by her. (certainly wouldn't try to waifu her).

However, she is not a real person, she is a fictional character. That can elicit hate. I hate what she represents, and what the authors are doing

 

[Hachikaido]

In CoC1 and TiTS, the MC initially has something that they need to do. Something that drives them throughout their long journey. Even if it's skewed by the player's choices or the story itself. Whether it's saving your village by being a champion in another world or finding your dad's keys across the universe to reclaim your birth rite, it's still something that pushes the MC forward.

In CoC2, they is no such goal. There's no real rhyme or reason for the MC to do what they are doing. From what I remember, the MC was just passing through Hawkethorne and wanted a place to stay for the night. They were on their own journey. Doing what? No one knows. But it came to a halt when a pink catgirl asked for help finding her sister. That's it. There was no pre-existing goal, no driving force behind why MC was even there in the first place. This is just a sidequest that's gone on way too long. Because once her sister is found, the quest is over. There's no longer a real reason to stay.

It has nothing to do with Cait being the town's bike and not the MC's personal pocket pussy, but has everything to do with the adventure being solely based on whether or not her sister is found. The main goal and drive of the entire adventure is Cait's not the MC's. Think about everything the MC has done up to this point. Cait heavily suggests tasks because it could lead to freeing her sister, whether she initiated it or another charater asked for help.

That is some bs and you know it. In every single game, our main goal is thrust upon the champion. In COC1 the MC is isekaid on purpose. We are one of many expendable soldiers "chosen" (you are not special, you're fodder) and sent off to the pits of hell in the hopes of stopping a demonic threat from taking over one dimension and possibly others. Getting Hells Paradise vibes now that I think about this.

In TITS, we are given the goal of our father, who fucked his way through the galaxy. You are genetically created to be a perfect copy of himself except you are bigger (nice cock), smarter, and more able to pleasure and inseminate more aliens than he could ever dream of. You're just living the life of your father, you're not the one who chose to do this, you are being forced by your dad to do it or you will lose your inheritance to some stuck-up bitch with daddy issues of their own.

Finally, there is COC2, where the MC this time through his own choice chooses to aid in something he thought would resolve in a day only to be sucked into something much much bigger. Unlike the last two games, you have multiple end-point goals. Find Calla and the same goal of the first COC in stopping the growing corruption with the possibility of aiding it if one were to choose to do so.

None of these goals for any of these games are anything to write home about but you have to remember one key thing. These people are not novelists or poets, they are writers of smut.

With that piece done, I wanted to ask why you even brought that up? I don't even know why you even brought up this point when the main thing he said was that people just did not like Cait sleeping around even though the MC of all three games does the same. Sure maybe you might not care for Cait and that might be why her being in the game is a flaw, but I've been on this thread for a long time to know that when people here start talking about Cait, they rarely if ever are talking about her importance to the lore of the story. There is no reason to put up a half-assed defense like she is basically the MC of the game when her main story has been barely touched. Just let people be honest, you don't need to defend them, there have already been people here who have not been afraid to say that they don't like Cait because they sleep around and that it ruins their experience. There is no shame in admitting that, they warn you for that exact reason so you can choose to never associate romantically with her in any way.

TLDR None of these game's stories, specifically any of their MC's goals are anything spectacular and stop pretending like they are just to avoid calling Cait a whore. She's a whore and she is a proud one.

 

[Alterism]

It has nothing to do with Cait being the town's bike and not the MC's personal pocket pussy, but has everything to do with the adventure being solely based on whether or not her sister is found.

Look, far be it from me to defend bad characters. But, Cait's motivation and the MC's goals are completely different. She's not nearly that important (content favoritism aside). Your quest is to go stop Kasyrra. The goal at least conceptually is the same as CoC1's MC to stop Lethice. Cait is just the kill rats sidequest that gets you out the door into the greater quest. Which is to go to Kasyrra and stop her. Unless you romance her in which case your quest is to... still do the same thing but I guess use the wooden sticks.

The premise is the same, the execution is where everything fucks up. Which, Yes this does impact the narrative but not for the reasons you're claiming.
CoC1's protag had no bigger or better plan for beating Lethice besides going there and doing it. Much the same as CoC2's protag.

The difference is in execution. (And I guess player control)

you're not the one who chose to do this, you are being forced by your dad to do it or you will lose your inheritance to some stuck-up bitch with daddy issues of their own.

Excluding the numerous endings where you just stop doing your quest of your own volition because you don't actually care about it. Yes, yes, "not cannon". The MC and player both have a lot more control of their own quest. The vast majority of TiTS that you can engage with you do so only because you want to. When you're down their swashbuckling with pirates and natives, you're doing this because you wanted to. You don't have to and the story and the sidequest(s) progresses with various outcomes depending on what you did or did not want to do.

even though the MC of all three games does the same.

I'm sure I don't need to explain to you why a player controlled MC doing something and an NPC doing something are completely different in regards to player reception and relevance. Such a thing is as simple to understand as the difference between "giving" and "receiving".

you have multiple end-point goals.

Caits sidequest is not your end-point goal. It's a sidequest. That's like saying aiding "marae" is an endpoint goal when she falls out of the story after you help her with the factory and afterwards you're completely on your own.
Neither is Etheryn's nonsense where you effectively do everything important while another character reaps all of the rewards (But with decidedly less finesse than White Knight Chronicles).

You've got one end goal. Don't lose your soul by foiling Kas' plans/reign her in.

Lastly:

None of these game's stories, specifically any of their MC's goals are anything spectacular and stop pretending like they are just to avoid calling Cait a whore. She's a whore and she is a proud one.

Couldn't agree more.
Except CoC1 and TiTs aren't trying to be narrative focused games with large expansive interwoven plots. They're sandbox games that exist in service to the player with what story there is serving to enhance your experience. This is what allows them to have large amounts of variance in player entertainment and available options.

CoC2 isn't that. It's an on rails narrative experience where most problems have a single solution and instead of options consisting of Content(A) or Content(B) you choose between Content or nothing. Heh.

 

[thecatcameback]

Still wishing there was a mode where you team up with Kas and Alissa to wreck shit and remove baldy from the world if you don't follow after Cait.

 

[MoneyMan181]

That is some bs and you know it. In every single game, our main goal is thrust upon the champion.

That doesn't change anything? The argument was that the previous games had more obvious and tangible reasoning for being on the adventure they're on. It being thrust onto them doesn't suddenly invalidate that.

None of these goals for any of these games are anything to write home about but you have to remember one key thing. These people are not novelists or poets, they are writers of smut.

So then don't make a story that's so in your face. This was not a problem in previous games.

TLDR None of these game's stories, specifically any of their MC's goals are anything spectacular and stop pretending like they are just to avoid calling Cait a whore. She's a whore and she is a proud one.

Nobody said anything about the quality of the stories in these games. Everybody knows they're flimsy excuses to just have a smut adventure. People think Cait is more of an MC than us because she has an actual goal(that doesn't get incredibly muddied by romancing the main fucking villain), is the reason the plot gets kicked off, is a Mary Sue, forces herself into a lot of content randomly, and is an obvious dev pet. I don't agree with the view, but I do understand why someone would think that way.

People can like or dislike something for more than one reason. Get off your high horse.