Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.8.4] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[devilaffect]

Shove the buillshit "both sides are guilty" excuse back up your Kinu Quest.
I sure as hell wasn't writing dozens of pages of spite novels to get back at TOBS/Savin/whatever, at any point in the timeline.

Sure, but bugging people non-stop about content that you want isn't going to get you in their good graces. Savin didn't just wake up one day and decide that he was going to make Helspawn unfuckable for the lolz. He was tired of people bothering him about it. You might have a better argument for Kinu, but Tobs has been getting hate since he was working on FoE so we're right back to being shitty to each other. Hell, Riya is probably the only piece of content to be designed in a vacuum just to piss people off. Is it a totally proportionate response? Probably not, but the hate does add up and can absolutely wear a person down over time, regardless of how inane any individual comment may be.

Edit: Or if you prefer being extra petty and pedantic, also remember that they wrote the whole Missing Meows quest and all associated characters, just to spite a single dude.
And don't forget about Cassidy from FOE, which was somehow even worse than the rest of their spite projects combined.

I will defend Missing Meows to the end of the earth. HiredGuns's stand in wasn't far from how he acted and he absolutely needed to be knocked down a few pegs. I would hardly say Cassidy is wildly worse. There's a single conversation that calls out the people who wanted the incest content and wouldn't take no for an answer. Once again, none of these exist in vacuums where one side did absolutely nothing wrong. I don't think having the bare minimum expectation that people don't constantly bug writers about content is a massive bar to set.

 

[YouShallNotLol]

He was tired of people bothering him about it.

Bullshit again. Savin was the one who promised to write Helspawn character and sex scenes for her. It wasn't a commission from anyone. People were rightfully calling him out for abandoning his own job halfway through.

I will defend Missing Meows to the end of the earth. HiredGuns's stand in wasn't far from how he acted and he absolutely needed to be knocked down a few pegs.

Oh, I see. So you're actively defending those spite projects now. A real "mask off" moment. Flock of a feather (the only thing that unites Sav&CO), I guess.

I would hardly say Cassidy is wildly worse. There's a single conversation that calls out the people who wanted the incest content and wouldn't take no for an answer.

Fuck right off with this one. That "single conversation" directly canonized protagonist of original CoC as an evil pedo groomer. That "call out" fires strays at the entire playerbase of the original CoC.
What a shitshow.

 

[YouShallNotLol]

I don't think having the bare minimum expectation that people don't constantly bug writers about content is a massive bar to set.

Pro tip any good writer should follow to a T:
Ignore random people who demand stuff. Forcus on writing compelling story and characters.

But looks like it's an inverse for Sav&CO:
Ignore making good story/porn/game. Focus on fighting and spiting everyone you see, even fellow writers.

 

[devilaffect]

Bullshit again. Savin was the one who promised to write Helspawn character and sex scenes for her. It wasn't a commission from anyone. People were rightfully calling him out for abandoning his own job halfway through.




Oh, I see. So you're actively defending those spite projects now. A real "mask off" moment. Flock of a feather, I guess.

Nothing I said was bullshit. And when he didn't write it, people continued to pester him about it. It not being a commission is even more vindication that he was in at least some way in the right. It's his choice to write what he wants to write especially when he was a community writer. He has every right to decide to not write something he previously planned. Do you understand how your argument comes off as entitled when the crux of it is based off of being entitled to somebody else's time and effort? That's one of the highest degrees of disrespect you can receive. I sincerely doubt that if you decided to not do something you had previously planned that you would be fine with people constantly bothering you about.

A specific spite project, yes. With the context I have from my personal experiences with HiredGun I would say it was deserved. His ass walked around like he owned the whole place and hopefully he has had a moment of introspection since then. For the other projects, I would say I lean more towards their actions being understandable. Once again, these projects aren't written in a vacuum and there was always lead up to them being made. I don't think it's crazy to ask you to consider the fact that there is some level of nuance to this and that group think has played some degree in exacerbating a situation that probably could have been prevented by both sides being a bit more cognizant of what they're doing. People are a lot more likely to change for the better if you at least attempt to understand where they were coming from prior to breaking out the pitchforks and torches. At the end of the day you can't expect the other person to take the first step when you aren't willing to do the same.

Pro tip any good writer should follow to a T:
Ignore random people who demand stuff. Forcus on writing compelling story and characters.

It's still going to get to you unless you completely ignore any and all feedback that you get. As much as you like to think you can just ignore hate comments or annoying demands, any sort of creator working in a space with a public comment section would tell you otherwise.

 

[Kalkrion]

The devs obviously don't give a shit about what happens here and I would legitimately like to actually change that.

I'll be plain, if that's your goal this has been a poor first step. To achieve what you're looking for you would have to open a open a dialogue or debate, what you have done for the better part of a day and a half is argue.

Don't misunderstand, arguing is normal and natural but to have a dialogue and/or debate you need to be willing to concede ground, to stop arguing one point and begin considering another. I can count on one hand the amount of times you've done this. I mean you kept arguing about therapy and its place in empowering oneself, when that is barely relevant. Instead of conceding some ground somewhere you have been fighting on every front and one of them you had begun losing ground so you stated he was a bad faith actor instead of conceding a single point, then proceeding to argue several more posts about him acting in bad faith. How did one of the closer times you came to a concession result in you arguing more?

This is draining to read since the start of this whole debacle was me mentioning William in regards to something Dreamer44 said. You had one prior post to this absolute rampage and I don't even know what to say anymore.

 

[Biostar]

That's a gross overgeneralization with no context.

I find Tobs grouping everyone together to spite them a gross overgeneralization so I guess it fits. Imagine pretending it's comparable to request content that was already promised to creating not one but two projects simply to spite people that left the game long ago. Imagine creating a daughter character to just pull the rug from out under your audience so he can show you how pointless you are to her now. Imagine thinking you're going to convince anyone to agree with you when you keeping glossing over what they do with no impunity. Sod off.

 

[Ranma]

Interesting you mention that. It's actually a legitimate tactic of some bot farms. They create an account and let it sit for years without any activity. But then at the crucial moment someone takes the pilot seat of that account, and starts very actively executing whatever directive they were given.
We call such accounts "canned meat" over here.

Ha! Funnily enough, back in the olden days, we used to call that something else entirely.

 

[devilaffect]

I find Tobs grouping everyone together to spite them a gross overgeneralization so I guess it fits. Imagine pretending it's comparable to request content that was already promised to creating not one but two projects simply to spite people that left the game long ago. Imagine creating a daughter character to just pull the rug from out under your audience so he can show you how pointless you are to her now. Imagine thinking you're going to convince anyone to agree with you when you keeping glossing over what they do with no impunity. Sod off.

And I would agree with that, but it also isn't coming out of nowhere like people are saying. I have already said it wasn't a proportional response, but people are discounting the effect that having a group of people shit talking you will have on your wherewithal. If I can't convince people to some degree that the devs aren't entirely evil, then I won't get anywhere.

 

[YouShallNotLol]

Do you understand how your argument comes off as entitled when the crux of it is based off of being entitled to somebody else's time and effort? That's one of the highest degrees of disrespect you can receive.

Then maybe Savin should close his Patreon? How dares he ask for donations when he almost never finishes what he started? Does he think he's entitled to all the free money he's getting? The list of abandoned/unfinished content on that one is its own text wall.
You remember how Shar was supposed to be a companion? Sucks to be a loser who subbed to Savin's patreon hoping for more Shar content.

People are a lot more likely to change for the better if you at least attempt to understand where they were coming from prior to breaking out the pitchforks and torches.

It's been what now? 10~11 years since CoC was "finished"? People were VERY lenient and forgiving towards Savin&CO for years and years. CoC2 was pretty promising when it started as an aprils fools joke. But it only kept getting worse with time.
Yeah, thinking Savin of all people could change for the better is pure delusion.

A specific spite project, yes. With the context I have from my personal experiences with HiredGun I would say it was deserved.

Nah, the man is a Chad. Cat harem is one of my favourite pieces of content in CoC2. So I'm really grateful to HiredGun for playing Sav&CO like a fiddle into writing that quest.

It's still going to get to you unless you completely ignore any and all feedback that you get. As much as you like to think you can just ignore hate comments or annoying demands, any sort of creator working in a space with a public comment section would tell you otherwise.

Sure, some of it may rub off on me. But how do you think most other writers write their books/movies/ theatre plays/games without devolving to the level of Sav&CO?
They suck it up and persevere despite everything.

 

[devilaffect]

I'll be plain, if that's your goal this has been a poor first step. To achieve what you're looking for you would have to open a open a dialogue or debate, what you have done for the better part of a day and a half is argue.

Don't misunderstand, arguing is normal and natural but to have a dialogue and/or debate you need to be willing to concede ground, to stop arguing one point and begin considering another. I can count on one hand the amount of times you've done this. I mean you kept arguing about therapy and its place in empowering oneself, when that is barely relevant. Instead of conceding some ground somewhere you have been fighting on every front and one of them you had begun losing ground so you stated he was a bad faith actor instead of conceding a single point, then proceeding to argue several more posts about him acting in bad faith. How did one of the closer times you came to a concession result in you arguing more?

This is draining to read since the start of this whole debacle was me mentioning William in regards to something Dreamer44 said. You had one prior post to this absolute rampage and I don't even know what to say anymore.

I'm not conceding a point that is obviously a lie. So yes, I will call him out as bad faith because he completely described the Will situation, which would not fit any other writer in all but name and proceeded to say he didn't. Not to mention he used the exact verbiage Savin used to describe Sephora when the pushback started. So yes, he was either bad faith for arguing on a topic he doesn't actually have any grasp on and is just repeating things he heard on here, or is purposefully lying. Either one of those is bad faith. His other points were a matter of taste, which I can't argue, and the others were just insults. I can't begin to have a productive conversation with somebody who isn't willing to do the same. Yeah, the therapy thing was a waste of time and a misunderstanding, but it would be rude to not clarify and clear that up. And yeah, I'm all over the place because this isn't a back and forth with a single person and I might not hit every point for every person every time, especially when it repeats. Also, how many concessions have been made on the other side? Am I the only one who has to concede anything?

 

[devilaffect]

Then maybe Savin should close his Patreon? How dares he ask for donations when he almost never finishes what he started? Does he think he's entitled to all the free money he's getting? The list of abandoned/unfinished content on that one is its own text wall.
You remember how Shar was supposed to be a companion? Sucks to be a loser who subbed to Savin's patreon hoping for more Shar content.

Projects changing and evolving is a common and normal thing. CoC2 still gets content, it still gets updates almost every week, and he has made no indication that he plans on stopping these. What free money? The man has like 6 employees on 30k a month before taxes and fees. That's barely 4k a month before Patreon's cut, before they get taxed as a business, and before they get taxed on personal income. They're far from rolling in the cash like you're implying.

Also, I'm fairly certain Shar was never supposed to be a companion and if she did it was very early in development. Is it disappointing that she hasn't gotten any update in a long time, yes. But there's a million things to write and there will always be somebody who isn't happy about what is currently getting the lion's share of focus. Also, anybody who is disappointed in this way is welcome to unsub from his Patreon. It is patronage after all and not a promise to deliver any hyper specific piece of content, just content in general.

It's been what now? 10~11 years since CoC was "finished"? People were VERY lenient and forgiving towards Savin&CO for years and years. CoC2 was pretty promising when it started as an aprils fools joke. But it only kept getting worse with time.
Yeah, thinking Savin of all people could change for the better is pure delusion.

Broad generalizations yet again. What exactly about it is worse that isn't just a matter of taste?

Nah, the man is a Chad. Cat harem is one of my favourite pieces of content in CoC2. So I'm really grateful to HiredGun for playing Sav&CO like a fiddle into writing that quest.

Cool beans, but I really doubt he was playing 4D chess.

Sure, some of it may rub off on me. But how do you think most other writers write their books/movies/ theatre plays/games without devolving to the level of Sav&CO?
They suck it up and persevere despite everything.

Most of them get feedback after their work is completed instead of during the process and most don't have multiple forms of direct engagement. Also, things like writer's retreats exist to get them away from everything that may interrupt their process. Also, just because something kind of works doesn't mean it can't be detrimental to those involved in the long run.

Edit: Let me ask you this. If the devs are ignoring you and your complaints is that the problem? Or is that the symptom of a greater problem that has been made worse by the community (devs included) insulating itself into pockets?

 

[GokutheG]

Projects changing and evolving is a common and normal thing. CoC2 still gets content, it still gets updates almost every week, and he has made no indication that he plans on stopping these. What free money? The man has like 6 employees on 30k a month before taxes and fees. That's barely 4k a month before Patreon's cut, before they get taxed as a business, and before they get taxed on personal income. They're far from rolling in the cash like you're implying.

Also, I'm fairly certain Shar was never supposed to be a companion and if she did it was very early in development. Is it disappointing that she hasn't gotten any update in a long time, yes. But there's a million things to write and there will always be somebody who isn't happy about what is currently getting the lion's share of focus. Also, anybody who is disappointed in this way is welcome to unsub from his Patreon. It is patronage after all and not a promise to deliver any hyper specific piece of content, just content in general.



Broad generalizations yet again. What exactly about it is worse that isn't just a matter of taste?



Cool beans, but I really doubt he was playing 4D chess.


Most of them get feedback after their work is completed instead of during the process and most don't have multiple forms of direct engagement. Also, things like writer's retreats exist to get them away from everything that may interrupt their process. Also, just because something kind of works doesn't mean it can't be detrimental to those involved in the long run.

I believe Savin thought that Shar could have become a good companion candidate but Cait made him realize that a writer focusing on more than one at a time is a bad idea and that's part of the reason the one companion rule came to be.

 

[namelessdudewithnoname]

I ain't reading any of that. Hiredgun was a hero and he won in the end. t

 

[devilaffect]

I believe Savin thought that Shar could have become a good companion candidate but Cait made him realize that a writer focusing on more than one at a time is a bad idea and that's part of the reason the one companion rule came to be.

He has publicly admitted that having Cait, Arona, and Etheryn was a mistake so that wouldn't surprise me.

 

[B-52 Stratofortress]

clip clip go the clipper snippers

Fuck me you just don't quit do you bud? It'd be funny if it weren't so sad.

 

[MoneyMan181]

Cool beans, but I really doubt he was playing 4D chess.

He came here at some point and basically said, "Yeah I like the content, so basically I got them to write me shit for free lmao."

Which I mean yeah you can't even start as a minotaur IIRC so it doesn't even work as a spite project. They literally just gave the guy a free cat harem lmao.

 

[devilaffect]

Fuck me you just don't quit do you bud? It'd be funny if it weren't so sad.

I am nothing if not determined.

He came here at some point and basically said, "Yeah I like the content, so basically I got them to write me shit for free lmao."

Which I mean yeah you can't even play as a minotaur so it doesn't even work as a spite project. They literally just gave the guy a free cat harem lmao.

Maybe, but unless he said that long before the content was out, I would be hard pressed to believe it was on purpose. If it was, congrats to him and he should probably be studied.

 

[YouShallNotLol]

Broad generalizations yet again. What exactly about it is worse that isn't just a matter of taste?

Oh I don't know, how they abandon almost half of the stuff they start making? Pupperidge Farm sends its regards.
Or how they have constant infighting, causing writers to leave the project one after the other? Hugs, Will and other departed writers send their regards.

 

[dolosolo]

The devs obviously don't give a shit about what happens here and I would legitimately like to actually change that

Both sides are guilty of being shitty

do you talk with the devs like you do here ? are you their ambassador ? are you trying to be the f95 ambassador ? do you have any idea how fruitless it is to try to convince "shitty" people their animosty for "shitty" people is irrational ? i think you already said you enjoy a good debate so youre just gonna be here until youre tired ? same as the rest of us ? you might just be here for yourself man

How so? I wouldn't say the quality objectively dropped. If anything it improved from unnamed text game, CoC1 and early TiTS. How many one paragraph sex scenes are in CoC2 compared to CoC1? And no, people's stylistic choices not being to your liking or the direction of the game changing is not a drop in writing quality

rant rq, thematically the game is a far cry from early tits and coc1, we are all enjoying the longer scenes. but i dont find the new thematic tone to be as open to interpetation as coc1 and early tits. characters and even the pc, neeed to be percieved a certain way because reasons, and i dont like this stlyistic choice. it feels forced. and because someone cant pinpoint the precise technical reason that quality feels lower doesnt mean their opinion can be written off with no merit, it just means that person could use some help explaining themselves, which is what i think you should be doing, if you actually want to form a bridge

HiredGuns's stand in wasn't far from how he acted and he absolutely needed to be knocked down a few pegs.

His ass walked around like he owned the whole place and hopefully he has had a moment of introspection since then.

this dude was so passionate with his opinions he got his own character and noone remembers what his points even were?(do they?) thats sad as hell. to say he deserved this degree of ridicule instead of a simple ban makes me wonder, do you like to teach people lessons ? is this excusion you putting the belt to ass ?

 

[devilaffect]

Oh I don't know, how they abandon almost half of the stuff they start making? Pupperidge Farm sends its regards.
Or how they have constant infighting, causing writers to leave the project one after the other? Hugs, Will and other departed writers send their regards.

Sure, a few pieces of content might have plans for additions, but that doesn't mean they are outright abandoned. It goes right back to the fact not everybody will always be happy with everything that is being written at any given point in time. They have limited pool resources and have to pick and choose what they think they can get done in a timely manner and still please people and themselves. If they are focusing on side characters then they aren't focusing on dungeons or the main story. If they're focusing on the main story they aren't focusing on dungeons or side characters...

Just so we're clear, Hugs broke the companion rules and then tried to say that the devs were biased against people with mental illness when he was held to the rules. He disappeared from the community multiple times before CoC2, for good reason I might add, and Savin decided to give him a chance with a companion despite this because Hugs seemed to be in a better place. He then preceded to disappear again, which was against the companion guidelines, and when he came back was angry that Savin wouldn't let him pick right back up with Berwyn. It escalated and Savin outright banned him from writing. And that's not to mention some of the longstanding community writers providing anecdotes on Hugs behavior when it came to collaborations.

Will was suffering from depression and writer's block. I'm not totally aware of if one caused the other, but his productivity at the very least took a massive drop (only writing a few one-off scenes a year) and according to Nonesuch, the one large product he finished was not of sufficient quality. The same project that Fen publicly offered to work with him on at a later date. I can't verify the veracity of whether his departure was entirely voluntary, but considering this went on for over a year with Will still being paid the whole time, I don't think it's outside the realm of reason for Will to depart of his own volition. Could they have done more? Maybe, but at the end of the day getting help needed to be Will's choice.

Most of the other writers left for health reasons, like Night Trap or Mistybirb. Misty is honestly probably the closest to infighting, but even that is a stretch since she wasn't staff. JimThermic got a SFW writing job and didn't want one to interfere with the other. Most just plain disappear for no apparent reason like SoAndSo. Hell, some just randomly pop back up like Couch. Or go to jail for tax evasion.