Ren'Py Completed Defiler Wings [v1.4.1] [The Old Huntsman]

[Jman9]

It's not about cheating as such, it's about shaping the gameplay experience. Just because you don't like roguelikes doesn't mean it's not a valid design choice.

If you truly need to cheat, the source code is open. Enable the console/debug mode and look up the game variables to use with those, or even tweak the code for whatever you don't like.

DW isn't really much when it comes to the actual porn, anyway. If you're just looking for something to jack off to, you'll need to provide generous amounts of imagination to make it work.

This game's (and its remake's) singular claim to fame is being a somewhat complete 'dragon rape sim'. There are only a couple of games in existence that are even vaguely similar (Hoard, which is more action-y and without sex; and Redscale's Adventure, which is woefully incomplete and not particularly sexy, either). If that's not something you like so much that you can overlook the weird translation and other issues, play something more mainstream.

 

[mrttao]

It's not about cheating as such, it's about shaping the gameplay experience. Just because you don't like roguelikes doesn't mean it's not a valid design choice.

It is about cheating when the author intentionally mangled the save system with anti features designed to stop cheating.
You can have a roguelike experience without doing such a thing. Author chose not to.
From what I know about the engine used by this game it should have been more work and effort to introduce those anti cheat systems.

If you truly need to cheat

You completely missed the point. The issue is not that I don't know how to cheat
The issue is that the author broke the wonderful default renpy save system to replace it with a custom bad save system.
And the logic he had for it was "to prevent cheating". I am not complaining about my inability to cheat, I am complaining about the bad save system everyone is being saddled with

 

[Jman9]

It is about cheating when the author intentionally mangled the save system with anti features designed to stop cheating.

I don't think the Old Huntsman did anything with the save system except for disabling the save/load menus. Calling it 'mangling' is a pretty strong take.

Edit2: Well, that and not writing a proper save/load screen in the first place.

Edit: Honestly, after looking at what he did, setting up the save/load screen would have been about the same amount of effort. Neither is created or integrated into a custom UI completely automatically.

You can have a roguelike experience without doing such a thing.

Describe your 'roguelike with default save/load screens' system, please.

You completely missed the point. The issue is not that I don't know how to cheat

The issue is that the author broke the wonderful default renpy save system to replace it with a custom bad save system.

So, your issue is not with how the game plays, but with the aesthetics of how the author implemented it? That's a new take, haven't seen that one before.

And the logic he had for it was "to prevent cheating".

I don't know his reasons for the 'pseudo-ironman' save system, and I have never seen it expressed anywhere. Perhaps there's something in the depths of the Russian interwebs, but since DW was his "intro to Ren'Py", I kinda doubt he was all that concerned about players reloading stuff. You can still manually move your saves around, for one.

I personally doubt it had anything to do with cheating as such due to doing something similar myself with the remake. I may or may not be wrong here.

I am not complaining about my inability to cheat, I am complaining about the bad save system everyone is being saddled with

So, what exactly is your beef with it? Inability to have bunch of archived saves, when that kinda runs counter to the achievement system? Which is pretty much all the real gameplay this game has.



Make no mistake, I'm not a great fan of the original DW or 1.4.1. Mainly because it's so clumsy compared to the remake. But I have yet to see a convincing argument in favour of the default save system from you. Not saying there isn't one, but so far yours is not it.



Edit2: I can't be bothered to rework and polish the whole thing, but if you're playing 1.4.1 and want more save slots, especially ones free from autosaving, paste this into 'game'. You'll get 15 slots total, #1 is your normal 'autosaved' slot and #3 is the 'freeplay autosave'. The other two columns should be relatively safe. Don't use the 'delete' feature, it'll softlock.

Edit3: Probably won't play nice with the translation, though.

Edit4: Added another version for the translation from this post.

 

[mrttao]

Describe your 'roguelike with default save/load screens' system, please.

You do know that 99% of renpy games have a "persistent" file in their save directory?
they also all have autosaves.
achievement counters and unlocks for use in future runthroughs happen in that file. as do universal statistics (eg: X enemies killed. Y runthroughs completed. etc) dead simple.
everything else is saved in the current file state. Current file also contains a backup of the persistent data at the time it was saved in case the persistent file is lost.

As for people save scumming to rapidly rack up achievements... oh boohoo they cheated without using a console command in a single player game. however will we cope.

So, your issue is not with how the game plays, but with the aesthetics of how the author coded it? That's a new take, haven't seen that one before.

Things like having more than 1 save slot is not aesthetics. It is functionality
You went from completely missing the point to outright malicious strawmanning.

 

[Jman9]

All Ren'Py games have a persistent file, unless they haven't exited yet. DW already tracks achievements there.

Your proposal is nothing like a roguelike.

Console isn't unlocked by default, either.

You mentioned nothing about functionality or multiple saves before, just that it's 'bad' because it's not the default Ren'Py save/load system. Which it is, BTW.

I am not a mind reader. But I should be a better reader. Especially when you claim that the save/load system could be made totally as a roguelike, except better in some undefined manner than what's currently there.

Look, the point of 'ironman' is not in how hard it is to sidestep it. You can always cheat because you virtually always either have access to the source code or can decompile it. The point is to make it inconvenient to foster the right mentality. You don't like it, fine. Lots of people hate roguelikes and rigid save points. But seeing a lack of easy saving as something inherently 'bad' is not something we're going to agree on.

 

[mrttao]

You mentioned nothing about functionality or multiple saves before, just that it's 'bad' because it's not the default Ren'Py save/load system.

see

The game was designed with some "roguelike" features to discourage savescumming so the save and load system is quite different from the usual renpy games. You can generally only have a single save which allows you to continue your game from the main menu.

"oh no, what if people CHEAT in this single player porn game!!!!111!!"
"I know! I will make some extremely bad anti features that punishes everyone to prevent this".
wtf was the author smoking when he came up with this idea?

 

[Jman9]

see

...extremely bad anti features that punishes everyone to prevent this".

Yes? No mention of multiple saves, not addressing the pseudo-roguelike aspect at all. My bad, I was wrong.

 

[mrttao]

Yes? No mention of multiple saves, not addressing the pseudo-roguelike aspect at all.

You must be registered to see the links

: the words that are used with a certain word or phrase and that help to explain its meaning

The context of what you quoted me saying:

"I know! I will make some extremely bad anti features that punishes everyone to prevent this".

is that was the above quote was explicitly a replying to this quote:

The game was designed with some "roguelike" features to discourage savescumming so the save and load system is quite different from the usual renpy games. You can generally only have a single save which allows you to continue your game from the main menu.

Let us analyze then what is being quote-replied.

The game was designed with some "roguelike" features to discourage savescumming so the save and load system is quite different from the usual renpy games.

^States it is different, states why it is different. Does not explain how

You can generally only have a single save which allows you to continue your game from the main menu.

^explains HOW it is different.
Literally all it says is... you can only have a single save which can only be loaded from main menu.

Thus by using your big human brain you see that a reply of "this is an anti feature" to a quote containing the statements of "this is different, here is why, here is how" must be referring to the "this is how" part. which is literally the one and only feature being quote-replied to. namely, the fact that this game has only 1 save slot.

No mind reading is necessary on your part

 

[Jman9]

Okay, I should have read the quote more carefully. Sorry, my bad.

Doesn't help that the first quote is actually wrong about several things, which made me ignore it. The save system is vanilla Ren'Py, except:

• No access to save screen. Load screen is hidden under settings. Only shows first 4 slots.
• Some parts of the game disable the save/load screen (dragon creation and sleeping). No real effect on the game.
• Periodic autosaves while slumbering over save #1 during story and #3 during freeplay.
• Once you win the story, your save gets deleted.

You don't really address the issue how to make the game retain it's roguelike aspect while providing multiple saves, though. Because that's pretty much all that DW has going for it as a game.

 

[mrttao]

You don't really address the issue how to make the game retain it's roguelike aspect while providing multiple saves, though. Because that's pretty much all that DW has going for it as a game.

I think we have different definitions of the word roguelike. For one thing all the modern "roguelike" games out there are more "roguelite" as they are very different from the old "roguelike" games from the previous millenium. But rather a modern spin on the thing.

I think the bulk of the roguelite genre is in the "a short procedurally generated game with lots of luck which you replay often with accrual of unlocks for all future runs".

I do not think enforced ironman mode (since save that auto overwrites) is necessary to qualify as a roguelite.
I believe that it is perfectly legitimate for a player to choose to revert to an older save instead of restarting the whole run. It makes it "not an ironman run" instead of "not roguelite" in my opinion.

For example you can find some examples of roguelite games that allow non-ironman mode.

You must be registered to see the links

 

[Jman9]

I did say 'roguelike aspects' because DW indeed isn't a true roguelike. Or even 'roguelite'. But I think these (being stuck with three dragonlings before game over, relatively freeform and moderately random gameplay compared to most Ren'Py games, although not truly procedural generation) do contribute to the game being what it is. Because everything else is really messy (especially compared to the remake).


I think the essence of 'roguelikes' is that you're bombarded with random challenges that defeat you until you master the game enough to overcome these. Maybe once, maybe consistently, depending on how much pride and attachment to the game you have.

IMO, DW will pretty much lose anything of the sort once you can save and load freely instead of deliberately sabotaging the game to do it.

Do note that as it is, it's not really quite ironman, either, because you get three tries per quest during story and can freely load your last save anyway. Even if you lose the game.


Edit: Looking at your link, I don't really see how Battle Brothers even remotely qualifies as a roguelike. Or roguelite. It's a classic TB tactical game with a mild economy sim bolted on top. Same goes for any iteration of XCom, new or old. Not personally familiar with the rest.


In any case, if you want your save slots, look at my post a little farther up and use the file with two tiny changes to get most of Ren'Py multiple save/load functionality back.

 

[PhazeUFO]

I did say 'roguelike aspects' because DW indeed isn't a true roguelike. Or even 'roguelite'. But I think these (being stuck with three dragonlings before game over, relatively freeform and moderately random gameplay compared to most Ren'Py games, although not truly procedural generation) do contribute to the game being what it is. Because everything else is really messy (especially compared to the remake).


I think the essence of 'roguelikes' is that you're bombarded with random challenges that defeat you until you master the game enough to overcome these. Maybe once, maybe consistently, depending on how much pride and attachment to the game you have.

IMO, DW will pretty much lose anything of the sort once you can save and load freely instead of deliberately sabotaging the game to do it.

Do note that as it is, it's not really quite ironman, either, because you get three tries per quest during story and can freely load your last save anyway. Even if you lose the game.


Edit: Looking at your link, I don't really see how Battle Brothers even remotely qualifies as a roguelike. Or roguelite. It's a classic TB tactical game with a mild economy sim bolted on top. Same goes for any iteration of XCom, new or old. Not personally familiar with the rest.


In any case, if you want your save slots, look at my post a little farther up and use the file with two tiny changes to get most of Ren'Py multiple save/load functionality back.

Too be fair, by the term "roguelike" or "roguelite" it has to be like the game Rogue. If it isn't, it should be neither of those. Now, I have never played Battle Brothers so I can't comment on it, but I would agree that XCom was not roguelite/like, but was instead it's own genre of rng.

 

[Rule33art]

Android cannot be installed .. How to fix it?

 

[Jman9]

Old versions of Joiplay?

 

[Rule33art]

I honestly don't know how JoiPlay works. I have tried but I don't know it

 

[Jman9]

Well, then you're out of luck. Even the remake isn't getting updates any more, never mind this.

 

[ben akeba]

Describe your 'roguelike with default save/load screens' system, please.

that's mean ><
btw correct me if i'm wrong but i though that a good roguelike game had to have only temporary auto-save on closure that erase themselves once loaded

 

[Eliont]

temporary auto-save on closure that erase themselves once loaded

It is "hard" roguelikes, and people just save-scumming them.
My renpy-implementation just disables saves during roguelike mode replacing menu with "escape" promt.

 

[Jman9]

that's mean

No more than attacking a developer for merely not catering to one's particular save/load fetishes. *shrug*

correct me if i'm wrong but i though that a good roguelike game had to have only temporary auto-save on closure that erase themselves once loaded

The terms have seen serious degradation. To me, a 'roguelike' is a game that is within that very specific sub-genre with all the features, just not 'Rogue' itself. And 'roguelite' is a dungeon crawler in the vein of 'Rogue' with some of the features changed, for better or worse. People apparently apply both terms to pretty random games nowadays.

A 'roguelike' needs ironman. A 'roguelite' doesn't. Doesn't mean that people who really want to can't find ways around it. A save must still exist and get loaded at some point.

DW is in some sort of 'hardcore roguelite' category of save-scumming, i.e. your save gets periodically overwritten, but you can still load it whenever you wish, i.e. savescum recent decisions. Personally, I like it, because I was never a fan of full ironman in the first place. Bronzeman all the way. YMMV.

 

[Archdevil79]

And I thought that Ravager is really uniqe game with dragons. I was wrong...