RPGM Demon Deals [v0.06.5a] [Breadman Games]

[Boopeeman]

The animation art of 0.5 was of worse quality than 0.4. The scenes were hotter but the quality of the art itself downgraded.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

I'm not talking about the interior maps, but the buildings in the world. You can't sell a hospital having a large map if the exterior building is just a small building. It's not the Tardis. You can't have a one story building have several floors with additional wings.

Nobody said the exterior should be a small building. And of course you can, you'll just unlock the new floors and additional wings gradually when there's content for it avaiable. This is especially easy since the game anyways works with the classical approach of requiring the player to have absolved certain parts of the game to access specific areas.

They did plan it right away, that's what you're complaining about.

Again, I never said they didn't plan anything. I said they did not plan it well. They planned the whole game and didn't think about their target audience and what would've been the best approach, which is why they ended up with a huge empty world with snippets of content spread across everywhere which is very tidious to find and little rewarding in the same time, while it's disappointing that main progressions can't be unlocked further. Stuck with the main mom-content at home because they rather created 12 other quests that offer nothing because they don't progress yet neither.

But again, it's not supposed to progress linear. For instance, right now we have the Sabrina questline, but in the completed game, we could decide to do one of the teachers first before we even touch Sabrina (pun intended).

That's something you can implement later once it's all done. So for now, we'd have the full questline from Sabrina, then they add another teacher, then another teacher, then another teacher. And then when the game is out and done, they can make it avaiable that you pick by yourself in what order you want to progress them simply by spending more time with their quests.

This would require to have a good roadmap right from the start with all their characters and relationships, so that you can plan well out to also create complex and interwoven content, just in your first 3-4 areas of the game already.

And that would limit the progress to the available area's.

Quite the opposite - for instance, the gym could have a fully fledged questline with Cassie now. But it hasn't, it has been sacrificed to add other 12 NPCs to the empty world that also don't have anything to offer because all of them only got intro quests. That's why it's better to focus more rather than have 100 places in the same time under construction without much of value.

If you lock things away, you're restricted to what's available.

You're saying yes to high quality content and no to a lot of under-construction little rewarding content. That's the desired approach when creating an early access game that is supposed to be enjoyed during development.

With your method, it's more showcasing what the new area has to offer, rather than focussing on the character's storyline.

No, why would that? Like I said, for instance we could have the whole gym questline with Cassie now. But the time was spent adding more and more under-construction content instead.

I mean, I get what you're saying, there's nothing more annoying than have a character that just has one line, but given that we're merely at the start, I think we can be a bit lenient here. It's clear Breadman has things planned out, so let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

IMO many developers don't understand that when they go for crowdfunding/patreon/early access, the would benefit so much from that modular approach instead of trying to be a jack of all trades and do everything at once. Breadman is no exception here, unfortunately.

It's important to set priorities, there are really better ways to plan such a huge open world out if you go for early access.

 

[SuddenReal]

They planned the whole game and didn't think about their target audience and what would've been the best approach, which is why they ended up with a huge empty world with snippets of content spread across everywhere which is very tidious to find and little rewarding in the same time, while it's disappointing that main progressions can't be unlocked further.

And if you follow one questline, you'll stil lend end up a huge empty world with snippets of content spread across everywhere. Because that's how questlines work.

And then when the game is out and done, they can make it avaiable that you pick by yourself in what order you want to progress them simply by spending more time with their quests.

This would require to have a good roadmap right from the start with all their characters and relationships, so that you can plan well out to also create complex and interwoven content, just in your first 3-4 areas of the game already.

And now we have a woven and interwoven content, in all the area's of the game. If we did it your way, we'd have entire sections of the town that are just untouched while we do our stuff. And what if several characters need something similar? Are you going to put in three locations that sell wine, or going to revisit an older location (which makes more sense)?

Quite the opposite - for instance, the gym could have a fully fledged questline with Cassie now.

That's assuming Cassie's questline involves only the gym. Sabrina's questline had (going by memory) the school, several shops, the MC's old home, all in different area's. Cassie's questline, so far, also had several locations as well, each in a different area.

IMO many developers don't understand that when they go for crowdfunding/patreon/early access, the would benefit so much from that modular approach instead of trying to be a jack of all trades and do everything at once. Breadman is no exception here, unfortunately.

On the contrary, Summertime Saga (amonst others) started out with a world that got stuff added later on, causing the map to change. If you use Ren'py it's easy to change the world map, but in RPG maker it's a lot harder. You need to have everything set out at the start so you can fit it all together.

 

[Lewyn Collins]

Given how big some buildings are by necesity (the hospital, the school and the mall for instance), mapsize would increase if you put more locations there. Also, it wouldn't make sense since it's modelled after a US city pattern. While in Europe, "districts" aren't really a thing, they are in the US. Residential houses next to shops aren't common (even though it's, well, more convenient). Adding new locations in new area's would make no sense and just complicate things in the long run. Need a shop? Don't bother looking at the shop area, because there's no shop area, but go and find it in one of the other locations.

The thing is, the whole point is that it's supposed to be parallel instead of linear. Yes, some characters will be locked away by other storylines, but in the completed game, you're supposed to be able to choose which "main" girl you're going after, rather than finish them in a linear fashion. Also, this brings up the "problem" with polls again. Previous introduced characters will always win in the polls, rather than new characters. By introducing all the characters as soon as possible, you take away that bias.

So we're going to have one main girl and multiple side chicks? We can still finish the game having completed all their storylines though, I take it, in just one playthrough.

 

[SuddenReal]

We can still finish the game having completed all their storylines though, I take it, in just one playthrough.

Well, since the premise is to bang 30 women, I should hope so.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

And if you follow one questline, you'll stil lend end up a huge empty world with snippets of content spread across everywhere. Because that's how questlines work.

It won't happen because instead of placing 12 random npcs all over the world with only 1-3 quests, you put 6 npcs in your well planned out first 1/4 of the map with a dozen of quests, which are interwoven with each other and lead the player to different parts of the currently unlocked town, including side-characters as well.

And now we have a woven and interwoven content, in all the area's of the game. If we did it your way, we'd have entire sections of the town that are just untouched while we do our stuff.

That isn't true. These other sections wouldn't exist yet, and as soon as they're added they come of course with content and new characters and expansions of previous story lines.

And what if several characters need something similar? Are you going to put in three locations that sell wine, or going to revisit an older location (which makes more sense)?

Then I will include the whine shop in one of the first big 4 chunks of the avaiable town, and if some future characters need whine they can of course also go there and get it there. Where's the problem?

That's assuming Cassie's questline involves only the gym.

I just mentioned it because that's where it all starts. You can also take her to the school, the neighbourhood, your home, the hospital, the shopping mall or any other of the avaiable buildings in the first quarter of the avaiable map and get insanely creative with dozens of ways of implementing her into all the other happenings in the city and story.

Free your mind!

Cassie's questline, so far, also had several locations as well, each in a different area.

Yeah but then you're moving to the gym, are exited to meet her there more often and progress with her shower scene and all of that but there's nothing, because they decided to rather focus on building other NPCs at the very other end of the town which don't offer anything of value yet.

On the contrary, Summertime Saga (amonst others) started out with a world that got stuff added later on, causing the map to change. If you use Ren'py it's easy to change the world map, but in RPG maker it's a lot harder. You need to have everything set out at the start so you can fit it all together.

That isn't true, in RPG maker it's actually as simple as it gets, because map-events are hardwired to maps.
Little example:

Let's say you have 5 different visits / quests with the girl in the fashion store. Now, later, the devs want to switch that store to another location of the map, from the north all down to the south. Do you know what's neccessary to do that?

Just build a new building down there and place the teleport event that leads to the fashion store on its door - that's it. The fashion store itself with all it events and stories, variables and so on stays untouched. RPG maker is pretty easy and streamlined in that regard.

In fact, all the interior maps you see are completely disconnected from the outside world. It's just simple teleport fields that bring the player to the desired map. They could completely puzzle the whole overworld map and flip districts and places around in an hour if they wanted.

 

[SuddenReal]

It won't happen because instead of placing 12 random npcs all over the world with only 1-3 quests, you put 6 npcs in your well planned out first 1/4 of the map with a dozen of quests, which are interwoven with each other and lead the player to different parts of the currently unlocked town, including side-characters as well.

Not every NPC needs to be connected with another NPC, and a dozen quests for 6 NPC's is still more than 1-3 quests for 12 NPC's, so that's more work. And we're still in the introduction phase of the game. It's only 0.5, people.

That isn't true. These other sections wouldn't exist yet, and as soon as they're added they come of course with content and new characters and expansions of previous story lines.

In the full game they would exist. Stop thinking this game won't attract new players. There will be people who play from v0.10 and if they don't follow the quests as they were implemented, they'd end up skipping all those previous area's, wondering why there's nothing there before they get to the area's that do matter.

Where's the problem?

The problem is that you want to designate area's to certain NPC's and suddenly a quest for that NPC is in a entirely different area you haven't gone to yet.

I just mentioned it because that's where it all starts.

But Cassie's storyline doesn't start at the gym. The main focus will be there, yes, but it doesn't start in, nor will it be limited to the gym.

In fact, all the interior maps you see are completely disconnected from the outside world.

I'm not talking about interior maps, but exterior maps. Those need to fit correctly.

 

[Alandir]

So we're going to have one main girl and multiple side chicks? We can still finish the game having completed all their storylines though, I take it, in just one playthrough.

He just means whatever girl's story you prioritize. It's a harem game, you can get all the girls.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

and a dozen quests for 6 NPC's is still more than 1-3 quests for 12 NPC's, so that's more work. And we're still in the introduction phase of the game. It's only 0.5, people.

Not if you also consider the time that goes into creating the art for the additional 6 characters, the actual character design, their places and so on. And it doesn't matter if it's 0,5 or a thousand people:

In a month you have only a limited amount of time that you can spend with actual development that will result in some playable output, so focus definitely matters. 150 hours spend on 6 characters will lead to more engaging and fullfiling content than 150 hours of development spread across everything without really achieving anything relevant.

In the full game they would exist. Stop thinking this game won't attract new players. There will be people who play from v0.10 and if they don't follow the quests as they were implemented, they'd end up skipping all those previous area's, wondering why there's nothing there before they get to the area's that do matter.

I can't follow this idea. New players will play from the start and won't miss anything, old players will just load in their old savegame or the dev sets up a savegame that starts at the edge of the new content.

The problem is that you want to designate area's to certain NPC's and suddenly a quest for that NPC is in a entirely different area you haven't gone to yet.

Nah, that's what I am trying to tell you all the time: You imagine this project like it's already there and the dev has to deal with whatever happens, like: "Oh shit, now I created this girl and she needs to buy whine, but there is no whine store, what a surprise!"

That's highly unrealistic and won't happen. The dev knows what's needed and what to do, it's him who creates the game. So he will of course not implement this confusing thing you imagined here, but something that makes sense right from the start.

Nothing stops him from sending them to the same whine store avaiable from the beginning, or building a new one whenever it's required.

But Cassie's storyline doesn't start at the gym. The main focus will be there, yes, but it doesn't start in, nor will it be limited to the gym.

The gym with her is listed as individual story line in the quest log, that's why I named it this way. Anyways, you get the idea.

I'm not talking about interior maps, but exterior maps. Those need to fit correctly.

Yeah, I already took that into consideration. Like I said, you could flip the whole city and puzzle it within an hour. So even if they'd swap the whole map in the end for whatever reason that's done in a day. That being said, this is something that has nothing to do with the modular approach that I suggested.

If everything is planned out from the beginning then there's no need to change anything later. I didn't say create only 1/4 quarter of the city and then freestyle the rest. I said plan the whole thing but start with the first 1/4 so you can create focused and rewarding content before moving on.

If you plan it modular right from the beginning you'll do it in a fashion that makes sense so that there are no interferences with locations like stores, characters or new parts of the city - all the things that you mentioned aren't any issue because the plan right from the start already takes care of that and naturally makes sense to be developed and released this way.

 

[rahulz]

Good luck with your game. Love the art style. this has a lot of potential. I'll bookmark and keeping my eyes on this game, hopefully it will get enough support and people interests to grow. really like the hand drawn art. Hope the direction here is to add in a nice corruption arc for each character.

 

[SuddenReal]

Not if you also consider the time that goes into creating the art for the additional 6 characters, the actual character design, their places and so on. And it doesn't matter if it's 0,5 or a thousand people:

You mean those additional 6 characters that would have that art made for it anyway in the long run? All the characters are already planned out, so the art work will be the same regardless when they'll come out. It will still need to be done.

New players will play from the start and won't miss anything

What start? It's a game with parallel storylines. There is no start. You'll be able to choose which of the main girls you'll pursue first. So, if a new player picks one of the newest girls to start with, they'll skip the first area's. But since it's all one big area, the new players will have the same locations to visit as the old players.

Nothing stops him from sending them to the same whine store avaiable from the beginning, or building a new one whenever it's required.

Again, parallel storylines, there is no "same wine store available from the beginning" since you could have a different "beginning". And building a new store means there could be three stores selling a similar item exclusive to that store since all these are quest items, and it'll become confusing to find the correct store for the correct girl. Why does this store sell X, but not Y when it's basically the same thing? And once you have X or Y, you never go back there? With all the stores laid out as they are now, it's very simple. Need some electronic stuff? Go to the only electronic store. Clothing? Only clothing shop available. No need to build extra's if the map's already fully implemented.

If everything is planned out from the beginning then there's no need to change anything later. I didn't say create only 1/4 quarter of the city and then freestyle the rest. I said plan the whole thing but start with the first 1/4 so you can create focused and rewarding content before moving on.

It IS planned out from the beginning. That's what you're complaining about. You're complaining there are a bunch of useless stores that barely do a thing. Well, guess what, if you make those stores exclusively for certain characters, they'll truly do barely a thing because once that character's storyline is over, there's no more need for the shop. Do you really think that Cassie will be the only person at the gym? I don't know where the story's going, but I'm sure you'll see other people at the gym as well. And since Cassie's family, I'm certain her storyline is intertwined with other characters, just like the sister is, meaning her quest will only advance when we reach a certain level with other characters, rather than having a self contained story line.

If you plan it modular right from the beginning you'll do it in a fashion that makes sense so that there are no interferences with locations like stores, characters or new parts of the city - all the things that you mentioned aren't any issue because the plan right from the start already takes care of that and naturally makes sense to be developed and released this way.

I believe that momentarily the majority of locations are used in one way or another. Yes, for very brief things that may not be satisfactory to you, but everything is there already, so further use will naturally make sense.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

You mean those additional 6 characters that would have that art made for it anyway in the long run? All the characters are already planned out, so the art work will be the same regardless when they'll come out. It will still need to be done.

Then you simply don't understand my point about the chronology of doing things. I'll file an easy example of you, simple math:

On average - let's assume that for this example - one update can contain 20 quests, it does matter if you do it like this:

Possible Update 1

Char 1: 2 Quests
Char 2: 2 Quests
Char 3: 2 Quests
Char 4: 2 Quests
Char 5: 2 Quests
Char 6: 2 Quests
Char 7: 2 Quests
Char 8: 2 Quests
Char 9: 2 Quests
Char 10: 2 Quests

or if you do it like this:

Possible Update 2

Char 1: 5 Quests
Char 2: 5 Quests
Char 3: 5 Quests
Char 4: 5 Quests

.. or even

Possible Update 3

Char 1: 10 Quests
Char 2: 10 Quests

You can see, the more you fragment your possible working time into different parts of the game, the less you're getting out of it each update - in terms of playability, which should be a main concern when doing an EA game.

So for Version 2 it doesn't matter if "the other animations need to be done anyways". For now, the update is enjoyable and with plenty of progressions for the given storylines. And if the others come out, they will also get more loads of content right away.

What start? It's a game with parallel storylines. There is no start. You'll be able to choose which of the main girls you'll pursue first. So, if a new player picks one of the newest girls to start with, they'll skip the first area's. But since it's all one big area, the new players will have the same locations to visit as the old players.

You don't skip anything, you then play with the first girl until she's done and then proceed to explore the other content that brings you back to other places. Also this approach is modular planable.

Again, parallel storylines, there is no "same wine store available from the beginning" since you could have a different "beginning".

That different beginning doesn't change what the town looks like. If you want to go to the tech store - for whatever girls storyline (cams, phone, computer pieces, whatever you can think of) you still need to visit that one store.

And building a new store means there could be three stores selling a similar item exclusive to that store since all these are quest items, and it'll become confusing to find the correct store for the correct girl.

Nah, not really. If there's a ring to buy for a girl and you can get that ring in an accessoire shop, then you won't be confused. If another girl later wants a necklace that you can buy there too - no problem at all.

Need some electronic stuff? Go to the only electronic store. Clothing? Only clothing shop available. No need to build extra's if the map's already fully implemented.

I never suggested to change any of that, that was you. I said I would just implement all the important stores for the first 1/4 of the game in the first avaiable map parts so that the player can make use of them. And that if future updates introduce girls that need stuff from these stores, they're already there and there is no conflict that you like to make up. It's also easy to add new stores naturally as the map expanses and unlocking new locations for new and old characters to explore.

Well, guess what, if you make those stores exclusively for certain characters

Never said that.

If after the 1/4 of the game, 2 years after development, the new 1/4 (now 1/2 together) of the game unlocks with 4 new parts of the town, including let's say the accessoire store called above, then you can utilize that accessoire store for all upcoming girls, storyline and even for existing ones that can be explored further after the update. So there's no "exlusive shop for only one person".

That being said, it's also possible to create stores - exclusive ones - that aren't part of the town map. They could just place a bus station that would give you the choice to visit 5 different other locations where you'll just end up interior right away. Tons of ways to do stuff with imagination and creativity.

Do you really think that Cassie will be the only person at the gym? I don't know where the story's going, but I'm sure you'll see other people at the gym as well.

And? Introduce them later - easy. The gym won't magically disappear.

And since Cassie's family, I'm certain her storyline is intertwined with other characters, just like the sister is, meaning her quest will only advance when we reach a certain level with other characters, rather than having a self contained story line.

Sigh.
That's exactly what I described here:

If you plan it modular right from the beginning you'll do it in a fashion that makes sense so that there are no interferences with locations like stores, characters or new parts of the city - all the things that you mentioned aren't any issue because the plan right from the start already takes care of that and naturally makes sense to be developed and released this way.

and here:

I just mentioned it because that's where it all starts. You can also take her to the school, the neighbourhood, your home, the hospital, the shopping mall or any other of the avaiable buildings in the first quarter of the avaiable map and get insanely creative with dozens of ways of implementing her into all the other happenings in the city and story.

You can also get deeply and complex with "only" 5 characters in a couple of updates, so stuff gets interwoven and complex.

I believe that momentarily the majority of locations are used in one way or another. Yes, for very brief things that may not be satisfactory to you, but everything is there already, so further use will naturally make sense.

Only for nonsense, I've been walking through the whole city and places. There's really not much to do. It's just a waste of time and not rewarding or engaging.

 

[nothing banned nothimng]

Jesus, just write a novel and call it a day, wall of text for this page is jarring

 

[Fuchsschweif]

Jesus, just write a novel and call it a day, wall of text for this page is jarring

Yeah who would have expected that in a forum where it's all about discussing topics.

 

[SuddenReal]

You can see, the more you fragment your possible working time into different parts of the game, the less you're getting out of it each update - in terms of playability, which should be a main concern when doing an EA game.

Everything up to 0.4 was introducing the characters. Sabrina was the first "main focus" of the update, and with the polls, the winner will get the lion share of the update, with minor updates for other characters. So, things will be more rewarding in the future.

I said I would just implement all the important stores for the first 1/4 of the game in the first avaiable map parts so that the player can make use of them.

You mean as it is now? Because quests have already send me to all the important stores to show me where they are.

Only for nonsense, I've been walking through the whole city and places. There's really not much to do. It's just a waste of time and not rewarding or engaging.

Breaking news: stores that only sell quest related items don't have anything to offer that isn't quest related.

 

[BruhTheVirgins]

Yeah who would have expected that in a forum where it's all about discussing topics.

 

[nothing banned nothimng]

Yeah who would have expected that in a forum where it's all about discussing topics.

Right because every comment is discussed between just two to three people in a back in forth is what we all came here to see, I totally forgot about that.

 

[Modninjaz]

The main take with Breadman is that he is truly strategic with milking the income from patreon. He works on one thing, but then magically needs to add a lot more content just for the original objective of the update can be continued to be worked on. On top of this, he even said that with each update he adds a tiny bit of story progression with the mom character, which is mainly people’s interest. He’s basically using a lead and collar to ever so slowly move things along so the patrons keep subscribed, while making sure he has a plan to keep things slow with updating. That’s why I stopped my subscription ages ago, and why a lot of people should unsubscribe too, since it’s hard earned money going to waste for updates that aren’t worth the price. Just wait for a substantial amount of updates or for the full thing to be completed, I guarantee his updates would get bigger and more detailed if he sees his numbers diminish as people catch on to the milking patrons.

 

[Demoness_Kiss]

The main take with Breadman is that he is truly strategic with milking the income from patreon. He works on one thing, but then magically needs to add a lot more content just for the original objective of the update can be continued to be worked on. On top of this, he even said that with each update he adds a tiny bit of story progression with the mom character, which is mainly people’s interest. He’s basically using a lead and collar to ever so slowly move things along so the patrons keep subscribed, while making sure he has a plan to keep things slow with updating. That’s why I stopped my subscription ages ago, and why a lot of people should unsubscribe too, since it’s hard earned money going to waste for updates that aren’t worth the price. Just wait for a substantial amount of updates or for the full thing to be completed, I guarantee his updates would get bigger and more detailed if he sees his numbers diminish as people catch on to the milking patrons.

Dude, you like Dark Magic...i'm against every form of discrimination, but it's hard to take you seriously...considering how Dark Magic is what you describe to be Demon Deals, but minus the fun, minus the plot, minus compelling characters, but plus an exacerbated grind that adds nothing but a massive amount of wasted time if someone is ever so dumb to play such game.

 

[Lewyn Collins]

Have you progressed with the game since last week or is it that Suscribestar doesn't update automatically?