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EvolutionKills

Well-Known Member
Jan 3, 2021
1,192
3,930
Hope you enjoy the game ^^
EDIT: Please take this for what it is, constructive criticism. I'm not here to dunk on your work or make you feel bad, but nobody is served well by pulling their punches during honest critique. I was an Art Major in college, that's just how I roll.

Well, so far I'm up to the MC and their 'mom' together in the bath, and it's just mediocre so far. The premise is alright enough, the conceit of the MC's subconscious as an illusion that not only can they perceive, but effectively acts as their own personality, is fun. But that's really the most the game has going for it.

Besides that, the writing is fairly bland. It technically hits Tier 2 status, but largely lacks real style or creativity, while having some technical issues. I largely group the writing for these erotica games into 3 tiers, with higher tiers being generally more technically competent and typically better written and (for me anyways) more enjoyable. Tier 1 would be dialogue only, a game where almost every line on screen is someone talking; including entire lewd sequences that amount to characters just moaning back and forth to one another or saying out loud how horny/excited they are. That is the least technically proficient writing, and Tier 1 games are an instant pass for me; I don't have enough hours in the day to waste my time reading that level of drivel. Next up is Tier 2, which is dialogue plus internal monologue; you can read character's inner thoughts. This allows for more skilled writers to be creative in how they build their characters and describe situations. Like anything there are gradients, and this can be done more or less skillfully, but I do consider this the bare minimum level of writing proficiency for me to continue with a game past the 5~10 minute mark, and Depth's Revival does clear that threshold. Tier 3 would be all that, plus flavor text. Descriptions of the world, the setting or scene, actions taking place, all outside of a character's inner dialogue. Stuff like describing how a location smells, or makes a character feel, or events that are happening; basically a solid 3rd person descriptive narration. This is what you need to do to take your writing to the next level, and it is a bar that few games manage to reach; but the ones that do make this shortlist tend to be the ones setting the gold standard for this sub-genre of amateur created erotica games (I'm talking about Being a DIK, Our Red String, City of Broken Dreamers, Casting Director, Seeds of Chaos, Kingdom of Deception, Pale Carnations, Now & Then, etc.).

There are moments when some personality can peak out and make itself know, typically with Serena's dialogue and the her banter with the MC, or the maledom interactions with Imogen. But even then the best parts I saw never got better than 'great', and it often fell well short of that. There are some technical issues, where a good proofreader or editor would be helpful. Instances of repeating the same word multiple times in quick succession, things that perhaps look okay when you are writing them but just sound awkward when you actually read them back. Examples like this...

44.png

You shouldn't be repeating 'lover' like that so close together. There are a number of ways to fix this, from rewriting the sentence, to using word replacement. The simplest fix would be to just replace the second 'lover' with 'beloved'.

"It's a lover's duty to take care of her exhausted beloved."

It means the same, but changing that one word drastically improves the flow and readability of that sentence. I'd still probably opt for reworking the whole sentence, but there are instances of this sprinkled throughout where even changing just a word or two would be a noticeable improvement.

As for the overarching meta narrative, it leaves something to be desired. Prime example here is the relationship with the MC's teacher, Mrs. Bell. I don't buy it, at all. I get that you want to have lewd scenes early and often, and there are better and worse ways to do that. Creative context opens up a lot of options, including one you made use of a few times, the old fan-favorite that is the dream sequence. It allows you to do lewd stuff, with little to no lasting effect on the narrative; allowing you to show the goods for characters that are otherwise on the track to slow burn (another frequent trope used for this is the perennial flashback). The problem with Mrs. Bell is that you chose to go with a pretty vanilla love route, and it just does not work within the context. The time frame is far too short for the level of love and devotions being opined, and crucially, in our time with the MC they simply haven't put in the work for it to be believable. Our interactions with Mrs. Bell are very limited. Your first encounter is just chatting in the parking lot, then later presenting your homework in front of the class with a visible boner (to which Mrs. Bell does little else but blush). Next day she is just present to teach class, no noteworthy interaction at all. The next day you meet her in the hospital after rescuing her missing daughter. The very next day after that, you're meeting her afterschool and you are fucking her while she spills her heart out. Maybe this wasn't as noticeable in the moment, releasing updates over months of time, but it is jarringly abrupt coming at it with a fresh set of eyes.

I get that the MC rescued her daughter, so that is a bit of set-up and pay-off within the established narrative. You could still have a lewd scene here, including sex, but you can't frame it like they're star-crossed lovers when this is the sum total of their interactions we get to see in game. Mrs. Bell could absolutely be down to fuck the MC here, but context is key. This could have been a fun instance of the teacher having the hots for a student, being physically attracted, but being unwilling to cross that line and indulge in the taboo. It is then the daughter rescue that pushes her over the edge and is her excuse to act on those urges, all under the guise of rewarding the MC (because she isn't ready to just give into her lust/feelings this early). You could then keep building upon that, having fun toying around with the 'will they/won't they' aspect of their nascent relationship. Will one of them eventually call it off? Will they fall into a mutually comfortable friends-with-benefits situation? Or will one of them try to push for something more serious? If given enough time and instances for Mrs. Bell and the MC to interact and build upon, you could eventually have the foundations for going down the path of hopelessly infatuated star-crossed lovers. But in this version? You simply haven't earned it. Not only that, but because the narrative hasn't earned it, the act of turning up the love dial to 11 is itself an immersion breaking experience. These characters aren't acting like how normal people should act given the circumstances, and it jettisons me right out of the experience; and that is both bad writing and bad narrative structure.

Onto the visuals, there are a lot of games using Illusion's Honey Select 1/2 for their assets. While I have seen it done worse, I've also seen it far, far better. In general the game lacks any interesting or creative shot composition, the game is mostly flat static shots of the world from what is presumed to be the MC's perspective 99% of the time. You'll occasionally get a 3rd person shot to illustrate another character's view, but they're few and far between. There really aren't any establishing shots to introduce characters, locations, or even scenes. Such a narrative framing really limits the game visually, and the presentation suffers accordingly. Now a lot of game do this (including games that I like), but that doesn't make it less boring.

Technically speaking, my biggest gripe has to be the awful default penis the MC is stuck with. That thing was never intended to be seen without the Japanese-state required censoring, and it shows, cause it doesn't look like an actual penis. Lets be real, it's ugly and awkward even by dildo standards. I know that good looking penises exist for these assets, in the form of mods presumably. Compared to The Anomalous Dr. Vibes...

42.png

...or Pale Carnations...

43.png

...this thing just isn't cutting it. Again, it would be an unsettling looking dildo, let alone a piece of actual human anatomy.

45.png

Also in other scenes when you are completely naked, like the Imogen maledom sequence, you can clearly see that the cock and balls are separate parts not attached to the body.

46.png

Again, they were never meant to be seen without the pixilation filter overlaying them, so the developers at Illusion didn't bother to put in the work to make the genitalia all one seamless unit with the body. They're separate pieces, floating next to and intersecting each other; like a piece of plumbing coming out of a wall with a pair of fuzzy dice hanging off it.

You do however try to pose your characters and have them react the to conversations, events, and the general world around them. That's good, but it could be better. A lot of it is reused over and over again, especially that pose where a girl hides both of her hands behind her back. I suspect a lot of these are stock poses within Honey Select (and I know all of the lewd animations are). More variety would help spice things up and stop the game from looking so samey.

There are also some questionable sequences, like the fight with Toni's posse while rescuing Melinda. So you get rushed by Jimmy alone, and with Serena's prompting you sidestep to the left, with the idea being to set you up for a counter attack. Fair enough. How did you stage this visually?

47.png

48.png

49.png

What is that? Going from the first to the second frame, you wasted time and effort to square yourself up after the sidestep, which would cause you to not just lose momentum in every sense. Not only does it make little sense when you think of it, visually it also breaks the flow of the action. It's like in a movie when you have a cut in a sequence of someone shooting a gun at someone, and they are on the right of the frame while face and firing at a target on the left side of the frame. To maintain flow of the action, if the next cut shows their target, then the characters had better be reacting to shots coming from the ride side of the frame. If they were to return fire, they had better be looking and shooting from left to right. If they are ducking for cover, they better be dodging bullets coming at them from the right side of the frame. It helps you keep sense of relative positions during an action sequence. What he have here isn't quite as bad as doing a right-to-left action followed by right-to-left reaction, but its the same principal.

Things get wonkier moving from frame two to three. Jimmy whiffs with his right punch, and the MC is awkwardly twisting with his left arm raised and his right lowered. Why is this awkward? Cause he's winding up for an uppercut. An uppercut that needs to go under and around Jimmy's extended right arm, if it has any hope to connect with his face. WUT!? Dude, the MC's left arm is already raised. The thing to show in order to maintain the momentum you do have (and the smart move to boot), is to hit Jimmy with a left hook. Continue with the line of motion, follow through with the left arm being raised. Continue to twist the torso (as was shown in frame one), and use that momentum to bring the MC's left first into Jimmy's overexposed face. Frame three should be Jimmy getting laid out (face first) from a left hook after the MC dodged to the left, after having let Jimmy's charging punch pass him by harmlessly.


All in all, the visuals are adequate. They're not so bad they take me out of the experience (except for anytime the MC's dick is front and center, and the fight choreography), but there is also plenty of room for improvement.


So in summation, it's been a pretty average experience. It isn't so bad I've stopped, but I'm not sure how long it'll keep my attention, and I've not yet seen anything that would have me recommend this game to someone else. There are plenty of other games that cover these particular kinks already, and just do it better. The only thing novel going for it is the self-actualized subconscious illusion that is Serena, but that alone isn't enough to raise the experience (so far) above mediocrity.
 
Last edited:

Seacth

Active Member
Game Developer
Sep 19, 2020
504
2,134
EDIT: Please take this for what it is, constructive criticism. I'm not here to dunk on your work or make you feel bad, but nobody is served well by pulling their punches during honest critique. I was an Art Major in college, that's just how I roll.

Well, so far I'm up to the MC and their 'mom' together in the bath, and it's just mediocre so far. The premise is alright enough, the conceit of the MC's subconscious as an illusion that not only can they perceive, but effectively acts as their own personality, is fun. But that's really the most the game has going for it.

Besides that, the writing is fairly bland. It technically hits Tier 2 status, but largely lacks real style or creativity, while having some technical issues. I largely group the writing for these erotica games into 3 tiers, with higher tiers being generally more technically competent and typically better written and (for me anyways) more enjoyable. Tier 1 would be dialogue only, a game where almost every line on screen is someone talking; including entire lewd sequences that amount to characters just moaning back and forth to one another or saying out loud how horny/excited they are. That is the least technically proficient writing, and Tier 1 games are an instant pass for me; I don't have enough hours in the day to waste my time reading that level of drivel. Next up is Tier 2, which is dialogue plus internal monologue; you can read character's inner thoughts. This allows for more skilled writers to be creative in how they build their characters and describe situations. Like anything there are gradients, and this can be done more or less skillfully, but I do consider this the bare minimum level of writing proficiency for me to continue with a game past the 5~10 minute mark, and Depth's Revival does clear that threshold. Tier 3 would be all that, plus flavor text. Descriptions of the world, the setting or scene, actions taking place, all outside of a character's inner dialogue. Stuff like describing how a location smells, or makes a character feel, or events that are happening; basically a solid 3rd person descriptive narration. This is what you need to do to take your writing to the next level, and it is a bar that few games manage to reach; but the ones that do make this shortlist tend to be the ones setting the gold standard for this sub-genre of amateur created erotica games (I'm talking about Being a DIK, Our Red String, City of Broken Dreamers, Casting Director, Seeds of Chaos, Kingdom of Deception, Pale Carnations, Now & Then, etc.).

There are moments when some personality can peak out and make itself know, typically with Serena's dialogue and the her banter with the MC, or the maledom interactions with Imogen. But even then the best parts I saw never got better than 'great', and it often fell well short of that. There are some technical issues, where a good proofreader or editor would be helpful. Instances of repeating the same word multiple times in quick succession, things that perhaps look okay when you are writing them but just sound awkward when you actually read them back. Examples like this...

View attachment 1453948

You shouldn't be repeating 'lover' like that so close together. There are a number of ways to fix this, from rewriting the sentence, to using word replacement. The simplest fix would be to just replace the second 'lover' with 'beloved'.

"It's a lover's duty to take care of her exhausted beloved."

It means the same, but changing that one word drastically improves the flow and readability of that sentence. I'd still probably opt for reworking the whole sentence, but there are instances of this sprinkled throughout where even changing just a word or two would be a noticeable improvement.

As for the overarching meta narrative, it leaves something to be desired. Prime example here is the relationship with the MC's teacher, Mrs. Bell. I don't buy it, at all. I get that you want to have lewd scenes early and often, and there are better and worse ways to do that. Creative context opens up a lot of options, including one you made use of a few times, the old fan-favorite that is the dream sequence. It allows you to do lewd stuff, with little to no lasting effect on the narrative; allowing you to show the goods for characters that are otherwise on the track to slow burn (another frequent trope used for this is the perennial flashback). The problem with Mrs. Bell is that you chose to go with a pretty vanilla love route, and it just does not work within the context. The time frame is far too short for the level of love and devotions being opined, and crucially, in our time with the MC they simply haven't put in the work for it to be believable. Our interactions with Mrs. Bell are very limited. Your first encounter is just chatting in the parking lot, then later presenting your homework in front of the class with a visible boner (to which Mrs. Bell does little else but blush). Next day she is just present to teach class, no noteworthy interaction at all. The next day you meet her in the hospital after rescuing her missing daughter. The very next day after that, you're meeting her afterschool and you are fucking her while she spills her heart out. Maybe this wasn't as noticeable in the moment, releasing updates over months of time, but it is jarringly abrupt coming at it with a fresh set of eyes.

I get that the MC rescued her daughter, so that is a bit of set-up and pay-off within the established narrative. You could still have a lewd scene here, including sex, but you can't frame it like they're star-crossed lovers when this is the sum total of their interactions we get to see in game. Mrs. Bell could absolutely be down to fuck the MC here, but context is key. This could have been a fun instance of the teacher having the hots for a student, being physically attracted, but being unwilling to cross that line and indulge in the taboo. It is then the daughter rescue that pushes her over the edge and is her excuse to act on those urges, all under the guise of rewarding the MC (because she isn't ready to just give into her lust/feelings this early). You could then keep building upon that, having fun toying around with the 'will they/won't they' aspect of their nascent relationship. Will one of them eventually call it off? Will they fall into a mutually comfortable friends-with-benefits situation? Or will one of them try to push for something more serious? If given enough time and instances for Mrs. Bell and the MC to interact and build upon, you could eventually have the foundations for going down the path of hopelessly infatuated star-crossed lovers. But in this version? You simply haven't earned it. Not only that, but because the narrative hasn't earned it, the act of turning up the love dial to 11 is itself an immersion breaking experience. These characters aren't acting like how normal people should act given the circumstances, and it jettisons me right out of the experience; and that is both bad writing and bad narrative structure.

Onto the visuals, there are a lot of games using Illusion's Honey Select 1/2 for their assets. While I have seen it done worse, I've also seen it far, far better. In general the game lacks any interesting or creative shot composition, the game is mostly flat static shots of the world from what is presumed to be the MC's perspective 99% of the time. You'll occasionally get a 3rd person shot to illustrate another character's view, but they're few and far between. There really aren't any establishing shots to introduce characters, locations, or even scenes. Such a narrative framing really limits the game visually, and the presentation suffers accordingly. Now a lot of game do this (including games that I like), but that doesn't make it less boring.

Technically speaking, my biggest gripe has to be the awful default penis the MC is stuck with. That thing was never intended to be seen without the Japanese-state required censoring, and it shows, cause it doesn't look like an actual penis. Lets be real, it's ugly and awkward even by dildo standards. I know that good looking penises exist for these assets, in the form of mods presumably. Compared to The Anomalous Dr. Vibes...

View attachment 1453893

...or Pale Carnations...

View attachment 1453894

...this thing just isn't cutting it. Again, it would be an unsettling looking dildo, let alone a piece of actual human anatomy.

View attachment 1453897

Also in other scenes when you are completely naked, like the Imogen maledom sequence, you can clearly see that the cock and balls are separate parts not attached to the body.

View attachment 1454018

Again, they were never meant to be seen without the pixilation filter overlaying them, so the developers at Illusion didn't bother to put in the work to make the genitalia all one seamless unit with the body. They're separate pieces, floating next to and intersect each other; like a piece of plumbing coming out of a wall with a pair of fuzzy dice hanging off it.

You do however try to pose your characters and have them react the to conversations, events, and the general world around them. That's good, but it could be better. A lot of it is reused over and over again, especially that pose where the girls hides both of her hands behind her back. I suspect a lot of these are stock poses within Honey Select (and I know all of the lewd animations are). More variety would help spice things up and stop the game from looking so samey.

There are also some questionable sequences, like the fight with Toni's posse while rescuing Melinda. So you get rushed by Jimmy alone, and with Serena's prompting you sidestep to the left, with the idea being to set you up for a counter attack. Fair enough. How did you stage this visually?

View attachment 1454048

View attachment 1454049

View attachment 1454050

What is that? Going from the first to the second frame, you wasted time and effort to square yourself up after the sidestep, which would cause you to not just lose momentum in every sense. Not only does it make little sense when you think of it, visually it also breaks the slow of the action. It's like in a movie when you have a cut of someone shooting a gun at someone, and they are on the right of the frame while face and firing at a target on the left side of the frame. To maintain flow of the action, if the next cut shows their target, then the characters had better be reacting to shots coming from the ride side of the frame. If they were to return fire, they had better be looking and shooting from left to right. If they are ducking for cover, they better be dodging bullets coming at them from the right side of the frame. It helps you keep sense of relative positions during an action sequence. What he have here isn't quite as bad as doing a right-to-left action followed by right-to-left reaction, but its the same principal.

Things get wonkier moving from frame two to three. Jimmy whiffs with his right punch, and the MC is awkwardly twisting with his left arm raised and his right lowered. Why is this awkward? Cause he's winding up for an uppercut. An uppercut that needs to go under and around Jimmy's extended right arm, if it has any hope to connect with his face. WUT!? Dude, the MC's left arm is already raised. The thing to show in order to maintain the momentum you do have (and the smart move to boot), is to hit Jimmy with a left hook. Continue with the line of motion, follow through with the left arm being raised. Continue to twist the torso (as was shown in frame one), and use that momentum to bring the MC's left first into Jimmy's overexposed face. Frame three should be Jimmy getting laid out (face first) from a left hook after the MC dodged to the left, after having let Jimmy's charging punch pass him by harmlessly.


All in all, the visuals are adequate. They're not so bad they take me out of the experience (except for anytime the MC's dick is front and center, and the fight choreography), but there is also plenty of room for improvement.


So in summation, it's been a pretty average experience. It isn't so bad I've stopped, but I'm not sure how long it'll keep my attention, and I've not yet seen anything that would have me recommend this game to someone else. There are plenty of other games that cover these particular kinks already, and just do it better. The only thing novel going for it is the self-actualized subconscious illusion that is Serena, but that alone isn't enough to raise the experience (so far) above mediocrity.
Wow, that is an huge text, thanks for making this big of a review of the game.

Alrighty first of all I want you to know that I'm currently remaking the first chapter of the game all those things you've mentioned with Mrs. Bell and MC's weird looking penis was bothering me for a while and I've started the remake to fix all these issues and a lot more. Also I fixed MC's penis with the release of Chapter 6 Here's how it looks right now:

ch6_267.jpg

I'll try and update the old versions with the things I've learned and I think I learned a lot since the first release, so I hope game's going to be a lot better in every aspect.
 

Seacth

Active Member
Game Developer
Sep 19, 2020
504
2,134
EDIT: Please take this for what it is, constructive criticism. I'm not here to dunk on your work or make you feel bad, but nobody is served well by pulling their punches during honest critique. I was an Art Major in college, that's just how I roll.

Well, so far I'm up to the MC and their 'mom' together in the bath, and it's just mediocre so far. The premise is alright enough, the conceit of the MC's subconscious as an illusion that not only can they perceive, but effectively acts as their own personality, is fun. But that's really the most the game has going for it.

Besides that, the writing is fairly bland. It technically hits Tier 2 status, but largely lacks real style or creativity, while having some technical issues. I largely group the writing for these erotica games into 3 tiers, with higher tiers being generally more technically competent and typically better written and (for me anyways) more enjoyable. Tier 1 would be dialogue only, a game where almost every line on screen is someone talking; including entire lewd sequences that amount to characters just moaning back and forth to one another or saying out loud how horny/excited they are. That is the least technically proficient writing, and Tier 1 games are an instant pass for me; I don't have enough hours in the day to waste my time reading that level of drivel. Next up is Tier 2, which is dialogue plus internal monologue; you can read character's inner thoughts. This allows for more skilled writers to be creative in how they build their characters and describe situations. Like anything there are gradients, and this can be done more or less skillfully, but I do consider this the bare minimum level of writing proficiency for me to continue with a game past the 5~10 minute mark, and Depth's Revival does clear that threshold. Tier 3 would be all that, plus flavor text. Descriptions of the world, the setting or scene, actions taking place, all outside of a character's inner dialogue. Stuff like describing how a location smells, or makes a character feel, or events that are happening; basically a solid 3rd person descriptive narration. This is what you need to do to take your writing to the next level, and it is a bar that few games manage to reach; but the ones that do make this shortlist tend to be the ones setting the gold standard for this sub-genre of amateur created erotica games (I'm talking about Being a DIK, Our Red String, City of Broken Dreamers, Casting Director, Seeds of Chaos, Kingdom of Deception, Pale Carnations, Now & Then, etc.).

There are moments when some personality can peak out and make itself know, typically with Serena's dialogue and the her banter with the MC, or the maledom interactions with Imogen. But even then the best parts I saw never got better than 'great', and it often fell well short of that. There are some technical issues, where a good proofreader or editor would be helpful. Instances of repeating the same word multiple times in quick succession, things that perhaps look okay when you are writing them but just sound awkward when you actually read them back. Examples like this...

View attachment 1453948

You shouldn't be repeating 'lover' like that so close together. There are a number of ways to fix this, from rewriting the sentence, to using word replacement. The simplest fix would be to just replace the second 'lover' with 'beloved'.

"It's a lover's duty to take care of her exhausted beloved."

It means the same, but changing that one word drastically improves the flow and readability of that sentence. I'd still probably opt for reworking the whole sentence, but there are instances of this sprinkled throughout where even changing just a word or two would be a noticeable improvement.

As for the overarching meta narrative, it leaves something to be desired. Prime example here is the relationship with the MC's teacher, Mrs. Bell. I don't buy it, at all. I get that you want to have lewd scenes early and often, and there are better and worse ways to do that. Creative context opens up a lot of options, including one you made use of a few times, the old fan-favorite that is the dream sequence. It allows you to do lewd stuff, with little to no lasting effect on the narrative; allowing you to show the goods for characters that are otherwise on the track to slow burn (another frequent trope used for this is the perennial flashback). The problem with Mrs. Bell is that you chose to go with a pretty vanilla love route, and it just does not work within the context. The time frame is far too short for the level of love and devotions being opined, and crucially, in our time with the MC they simply haven't put in the work for it to be believable. Our interactions with Mrs. Bell are very limited. Your first encounter is just chatting in the parking lot, then later presenting your homework in front of the class with a visible boner (to which Mrs. Bell does little else but blush). Next day she is just present to teach class, no noteworthy interaction at all. The next day you meet her in the hospital after rescuing her missing daughter. The very next day after that, you're meeting her afterschool and you are fucking her while she spills her heart out. Maybe this wasn't as noticeable in the moment, releasing updates over months of time, but it is jarringly abrupt coming at it with a fresh set of eyes.

I get that the MC rescued her daughter, so that is a bit of set-up and pay-off within the established narrative. You could still have a lewd scene here, including sex, but you can't frame it like they're star-crossed lovers when this is the sum total of their interactions we get to see in game. Mrs. Bell could absolutely be down to fuck the MC here, but context is key. This could have been a fun instance of the teacher having the hots for a student, being physically attracted, but being unwilling to cross that line and indulge in the taboo. It is then the daughter rescue that pushes her over the edge and is her excuse to act on those urges, all under the guise of rewarding the MC (because she isn't ready to just give into her lust/feelings this early). You could then keep building upon that, having fun toying around with the 'will they/won't they' aspect of their nascent relationship. Will one of them eventually call it off? Will they fall into a mutually comfortable friends-with-benefits situation? Or will one of them try to push for something more serious? If given enough time and instances for Mrs. Bell and the MC to interact and build upon, you could eventually have the foundations for going down the path of hopelessly infatuated star-crossed lovers. But in this version? You simply haven't earned it. Not only that, but because the narrative hasn't earned it, the act of turning up the love dial to 11 is itself an immersion breaking experience. These characters aren't acting like how normal people should act given the circumstances, and it jettisons me right out of the experience; and that is both bad writing and bad narrative structure.

Onto the visuals, there are a lot of games using Illusion's Honey Select 1/2 for their assets. While I have seen it done worse, I've also seen it far, far better. In general the game lacks any interesting or creative shot composition, the game is mostly flat static shots of the world from what is presumed to be the MC's perspective 99% of the time. You'll occasionally get a 3rd person shot to illustrate another character's view, but they're few and far between. There really aren't any establishing shots to introduce characters, locations, or even scenes. Such a narrative framing really limits the game visually, and the presentation suffers accordingly. Now a lot of game do this (including games that I like), but that doesn't make it less boring.

Technically speaking, my biggest gripe has to be the awful default penis the MC is stuck with. That thing was never intended to be seen without the Japanese-state required censoring, and it shows, cause it doesn't look like an actual penis. Lets be real, it's ugly and awkward even by dildo standards. I know that good looking penises exist for these assets, in the form of mods presumably. Compared to The Anomalous Dr. Vibes...

View attachment 1453893

...or Pale Carnations...

View attachment 1453894

...this thing just isn't cutting it. Again, it would be an unsettling looking dildo, let alone a piece of actual human anatomy.

View attachment 1453897

Also in other scenes when you are completely naked, like the Imogen maledom sequence, you can clearly see that the cock and balls are separate parts not attached to the body.

View attachment 1454018

Again, they were never meant to be seen without the pixilation filter overlaying them, so the developers at Illusion didn't bother to put in the work to make the genitalia all one seamless unit with the body. They're separate pieces, floating next to and intersecting each other; like a piece of plumbing coming out of a wall with a pair of fuzzy dice hanging off it.

You do however try to pose your characters and have them react the to conversations, events, and the general world around them. That's good, but it could be better. A lot of it is reused over and over again, especially that pose where a girl hides both of her hands behind her back. I suspect a lot of these are stock poses within Honey Select (and I know all of the lewd animations are). More variety would help spice things up and stop the game from looking so samey.

There are also some questionable sequences, like the fight with Toni's posse while rescuing Melinda. So you get rushed by Jimmy alone, and with Serena's prompting you sidestep to the left, with the idea being to set you up for a counter attack. Fair enough. How did you stage this visually?

View attachment 1454048

View attachment 1454049

View attachment 1454050

What is that? Going from the first to the second frame, you wasted time and effort to square yourself up after the sidestep, which would cause you to not just lose momentum in every sense. Not only does it make little sense when you think of it, visually it also breaks the flow of the action. It's like in a movie when you have a cut in a sequence of someone shooting a gun at someone, and they are on the right of the frame while face and firing at a target on the left side of the frame. To maintain flow of the action, if the next cut shows their target, then the characters had better be reacting to shots coming from the ride side of the frame. If they were to return fire, they had better be looking and shooting from left to right. If they are ducking for cover, they better be dodging bullets coming at them from the right side of the frame. It helps you keep sense of relative positions during an action sequence. What he have here isn't quite as bad as doing a right-to-left action followed by right-to-left reaction, but its the same principal.

Things get wonkier moving from frame two to three. Jimmy whiffs with his right punch, and the MC is awkwardly twisting with his left arm raised and his right lowered. Why is this awkward? Cause he's winding up for an uppercut. An uppercut that needs to go under and around Jimmy's extended right arm, if it has any hope to connect with his face. WUT!? Dude, the MC's left arm is already raised. The thing to show in order to maintain the momentum you do have (and the smart move to boot), is to hit Jimmy with a left hook. Continue with the line of motion, follow through with the left arm being raised. Continue to twist the torso (as was shown in frame one), and use that momentum to bring the MC's left first into Jimmy's overexposed face. Frame three should be Jimmy getting laid out (face first) from a left hook after the MC dodged to the left, after having let Jimmy's charging punch pass him by harmlessly.


All in all, the visuals are adequate. They're not so bad they take me out of the experience (except for anytime the MC's dick is front and center, and the fight choreography), but there is also plenty of room for improvement.


So in summation, it's been a pretty average experience. It isn't so bad I've stopped, but I'm not sure how long it'll keep my attention, and I've not yet seen anything that would have me recommend this game to someone else. There are plenty of other games that cover these particular kinks already, and just do it better. The only thing novel going for it is the self-actualized subconscious illusion that is Serena, but that alone isn't enough to raise the experience (so far) above mediocrity.
Oh, and I'll try my best to improve the things you've mentioned. This is truly an honest feedback that I've needed thanks a lot for taking your time and pointing them out.
 
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BTungsteno

Active Member
Jul 10, 2019
636
1,361
these dudes don't get tired of trying to make games with characters extracted from another game and these jerk suckers just accept it, why play this game if you can just play the original game where these characters were extracted from?
And yet you needed to post twice only to write trash.
What a majestic and constructive critic.

I'm not the dev but i will answer as a fan:
- If i didn't read wrong, the dev is delivering also a public version (so is not like you lose any money testing the game before decided to keep playing it and donate to his patreon (or not donate,he's not aiming a gun at us lol).
So if one like it, why not keep playing it. If you don't like it, you can keep checking others

- "why play this game if you can just play the original game"

Because the original game is also a toolbox/sandbox that we can use to create our own fan stories and/or read-play the ones made by others??
You know, like that game called Garry's mod? Well, more like her pervert cousin than like gmod but you get the point.
 
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Spfjolietjake

Conversation Conqueror
Sep 26, 2019
7,515
14,666
EDIT: Please take this for what it is, constructive criticism. I'm not here to dunk on your work or make you feel bad, but nobody is served well by pulling their punches during honest critique. I was an Art Major in college, that's just how I roll.

Well, so far I'm up to the MC and their 'mom' together in the bath, and it's just mediocre so far. The premise is alright enough, the conceit of the MC's subconscious as an illusion that not only can they perceive, but effectively acts as their own personality, is fun. But that's really the most the game has going for it.

Besides that, the writing is fairly bland. It technically hits Tier 2 status, but largely lacks real style or creativity, while having some technical issues. I largely group the writing for these erotica games into 3 tiers, with higher tiers being generally more technically competent and typically better written and (for me anyways) more enjoyable. Tier 1 would be dialogue only, a game where almost every line on screen is someone talking; including entire lewd sequences that amount to characters just moaning back and forth to one another or saying out loud how horny/excited they are. That is the least technically proficient writing, and Tier 1 games are an instant pass for me; I don't have enough hours in the day to waste my time reading that level of drivel. Next up is Tier 2, which is dialogue plus internal monologue; you can read character's inner thoughts. This allows for more skilled writers to be creative in how they build their characters and describe situations. Like anything there are gradients, and this can be done more or less skillfully, but I do consider this the bare minimum level of writing proficiency for me to continue with a game past the 5~10 minute mark, and Depth's Revival does clear that threshold. Tier 3 would be all that, plus flavor text. Descriptions of the world, the setting or scene, actions taking place, all outside of a character's inner dialogue. Stuff like describing how a location smells, or makes a character feel, or events that are happening; basically a solid 3rd person descriptive narration. This is what you need to do to take your writing to the next level, and it is a bar that few games manage to reach; but the ones that do make this shortlist tend to be the ones setting the gold standard for this sub-genre of amateur created erotica games (I'm talking about Being a DIK, Our Red String, City of Broken Dreamers, Casting Director, Seeds of Chaos, Kingdom of Deception, Pale Carnations, Now & Then, etc.).

There are moments when some personality can peak out and make itself know, typically with Serena's dialogue and the her banter with the MC, or the maledom interactions with Imogen. But even then the best parts I saw never got better than 'great', and it often fell well short of that. There are some technical issues, where a good proofreader or editor would be helpful. Instances of repeating the same word multiple times in quick succession, things that perhaps look okay when you are writing them but just sound awkward when you actually read them back. Examples like this...

View attachment 1453948

You shouldn't be repeating 'lover' like that so close together. There are a number of ways to fix this, from rewriting the sentence, to using word replacement. The simplest fix would be to just replace the second 'lover' with 'beloved'.

"It's a lover's duty to take care of her exhausted beloved."

It means the same, but changing that one word drastically improves the flow and readability of that sentence. I'd still probably opt for reworking the whole sentence, but there are instances of this sprinkled throughout where even changing just a word or two would be a noticeable improvement.

As for the overarching meta narrative, it leaves something to be desired. Prime example here is the relationship with the MC's teacher, Mrs. Bell. I don't buy it, at all. I get that you want to have lewd scenes early and often, and there are better and worse ways to do that. Creative context opens up a lot of options, including one you made use of a few times, the old fan-favorite that is the dream sequence. It allows you to do lewd stuff, with little to no lasting effect on the narrative; allowing you to show the goods for characters that are otherwise on the track to slow burn (another frequent trope used for this is the perennial flashback). The problem with Mrs. Bell is that you chose to go with a pretty vanilla love route, and it just does not work within the context. The time frame is far too short for the level of love and devotions being opined, and crucially, in our time with the MC they simply haven't put in the work for it to be believable. Our interactions with Mrs. Bell are very limited. Your first encounter is just chatting in the parking lot, then later presenting your homework in front of the class with a visible boner (to which Mrs. Bell does little else but blush). Next day she is just present to teach class, no noteworthy interaction at all. The next day you meet her in the hospital after rescuing her missing daughter. The very next day after that, you're meeting her afterschool and you are fucking her while she spills her heart out. Maybe this wasn't as noticeable in the moment, releasing updates over months of time, but it is jarringly abrupt coming at it with a fresh set of eyes.

I get that the MC rescued her daughter, so that is a bit of set-up and pay-off within the established narrative. You could still have a lewd scene here, including sex, but you can't frame it like they're star-crossed lovers when this is the sum total of their interactions we get to see in game. Mrs. Bell could absolutely be down to fuck the MC here, but context is key. This could have been a fun instance of the teacher having the hots for a student, being physically attracted, but being unwilling to cross that line and indulge in the taboo. It is then the daughter rescue that pushes her over the edge and is her excuse to act on those urges, all under the guise of rewarding the MC (because she isn't ready to just give into her lust/feelings this early). You could then keep building upon that, having fun toying around with the 'will they/won't they' aspect of their nascent relationship. Will one of them eventually call it off? Will they fall into a mutually comfortable friends-with-benefits situation? Or will one of them try to push for something more serious? If given enough time and instances for Mrs. Bell and the MC to interact and build upon, you could eventually have the foundations for going down the path of hopelessly infatuated star-crossed lovers. But in this version? You simply haven't earned it. Not only that, but because the narrative hasn't earned it, the act of turning up the love dial to 11 is itself an immersion breaking experience. These characters aren't acting like how normal people should act given the circumstances, and it jettisons me right out of the experience; and that is both bad writing and bad narrative structure.

Onto the visuals, there are a lot of games using Illusion's Honey Select 1/2 for their assets. While I have seen it done worse, I've also seen it far, far better. In general the game lacks any interesting or creative shot composition, the game is mostly flat static shots of the world from what is presumed to be the MC's perspective 99% of the time. You'll occasionally get a 3rd person shot to illustrate another character's view, but they're few and far between. There really aren't any establishing shots to introduce characters, locations, or even scenes. Such a narrative framing really limits the game visually, and the presentation suffers accordingly. Now a lot of game do this (including games that I like), but that doesn't make it less boring.

Technically speaking, my biggest gripe has to be the awful default penis the MC is stuck with. That thing was never intended to be seen without the Japanese-state required censoring, and it shows, cause it doesn't look like an actual penis. Lets be real, it's ugly and awkward even by dildo standards. I know that good looking penises exist for these assets, in the form of mods presumably. Compared to The Anomalous Dr. Vibes...

View attachment 1453893

...or Pale Carnations...

View attachment 1453894

...this thing just isn't cutting it. Again, it would be an unsettling looking dildo, let alone a piece of actual human anatomy.

View attachment 1453897

Also in other scenes when you are completely naked, like the Imogen maledom sequence, you can clearly see that the cock and balls are separate parts not attached to the body.

View attachment 1454018

Again, they were never meant to be seen without the pixilation filter overlaying them, so the developers at Illusion didn't bother to put in the work to make the genitalia all one seamless unit with the body. They're separate pieces, floating next to and intersecting each other; like a piece of plumbing coming out of a wall with a pair of fuzzy dice hanging off it.

You do however try to pose your characters and have them react the to conversations, events, and the general world around them. That's good, but it could be better. A lot of it is reused over and over again, especially that pose where a girl hides both of her hands behind her back. I suspect a lot of these are stock poses within Honey Select (and I know all of the lewd animations are). More variety would help spice things up and stop the game from looking so samey.

There are also some questionable sequences, like the fight with Toni's posse while rescuing Melinda. So you get rushed by Jimmy alone, and with Serena's prompting you sidestep to the left, with the idea being to set you up for a counter attack. Fair enough. How did you stage this visually?

View attachment 1454048

View attachment 1454049

View attachment 1454050

What is that? Going from the first to the second frame, you wasted time and effort to square yourself up after the sidestep, which would cause you to not just lose momentum in every sense. Not only does it make little sense when you think of it, visually it also breaks the flow of the action. It's like in a movie when you have a cut in a sequence of someone shooting a gun at someone, and they are on the right of the frame while face and firing at a target on the left side of the frame. To maintain flow of the action, if the next cut shows their target, then the characters had better be reacting to shots coming from the ride side of the frame. If they were to return fire, they had better be looking and shooting from left to right. If they are ducking for cover, they better be dodging bullets coming at them from the right side of the frame. It helps you keep sense of relative positions during an action sequence. What he have here isn't quite as bad as doing a right-to-left action followed by right-to-left reaction, but its the same principal.

Things get wonkier moving from frame two to three. Jimmy whiffs with his right punch, and the MC is awkwardly twisting with his left arm raised and his right lowered. Why is this awkward? Cause he's winding up for an uppercut. An uppercut that needs to go under and around Jimmy's extended right arm, if it has any hope to connect with his face. WUT!? Dude, the MC's left arm is already raised. The thing to show in order to maintain the momentum you do have (and the smart move to boot), is to hit Jimmy with a left hook. Continue with the line of motion, follow through with the left arm being raised. Continue to twist the torso (as was shown in frame one), and use that momentum to bring the MC's left first into Jimmy's overexposed face. Frame three should be Jimmy getting laid out (face first) from a left hook after the MC dodged to the left, after having let Jimmy's charging punch pass him by harmlessly.


All in all, the visuals are adequate. They're not so bad they take me out of the experience (except for anytime the MC's dick is front and center, and the fight choreography), but there is also plenty of room for improvement.


So in summation, it's been a pretty average experience. It isn't so bad I've stopped, but I'm not sure how long it'll keep my attention, and I've not yet seen anything that would have me recommend this game to someone else. There are plenty of other games that cover these particular kinks already, and just do it better. The only thing novel going for it is the self-actualized subconscious illusion that is Serena, but that alone isn't enough to raise the experience (so far) above mediocrity.
I disagree with a lot of what you stated here, as it seems how to make this unique vn into another cookie cutter clone of hundreds that already exist...

but it's the walls of text that got the facepalm. They make it hard to read and don't help your arguments. Paragraph breaks help.
 

Grankaiser

Newbie
Jun 21, 2017
70
115
these dudes don't get tired of trying to make games with characters extracted from another game and these jerk suckers just accept it, why play this game if you can just play the original game where these characters were extracted from?
to bad your around 900% wrong they not "extracted". alot of AI and AI2 characters can look similar especially when someone dont even think first and is only looking to crit on something
 

JonTommy

Member
Apr 9, 2021
266
1,216
Wow, that is an huge text, thanks for making this big of a review of the game.

Alrighty first of all I want you to know that I'm currently remaking the first chapter of the game all those things you've mentioned with Mrs. Bell and MC's weird looking penis was bothering me for a while and I've started the remake to fix all these issues and a lot more. Also I fixed MC's penis with the release of Chapter 6 Here's how it looks right now:

View attachment 1454074

I'll try and update the old versions with the things I've learned and I think I learned a lot since the first release, so I hope game's going to be a lot better in every aspect.
If you change relationship stuff with Mrs. Bell in chapter 1 will you then need to change the rest of the game?

6.5 was fucking great, the ending has me wanting more. One thing though and I'm not trying to be a butthole but Melinda would look so much better without that tattoo it's gross not even gonna lie. Is it barbwire? Don't get me wrong tats can be hot, her weird half body wrap barbwire is not. Anyway good update.
 
Last edited:
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EvolutionKills

Well-Known Member
Jan 3, 2021
1,192
3,930
I disagree with a lot of what you stated here, as it seems how to make this unique vn into another cookie cutter clone of hundreds that already exist...

but it's the walls of text that got the facepalm. They make it hard to read and don't help your arguments. Paragraph breaks help.
What? As it is right now, this already is cookie cutter, mid-range, 'been there, done that'. Now it can improve the writing and visuals to make it better and help it rise above, or stay the course and continue to tread water in mediocrity. But hey, not everyone has taste...

Also, notice that I did break paragraphs whenever I moved onto a new idea. This isn't Discord. Nor am I writing at a elementary school level. You don't need to break after every 2-3 sentences. Sorry (not sorry) if you couldn't keep up.
 

hueywhitmore

New Member
Oct 11, 2021
7
4
How is the incest patch installed?

Nevermind, figured it out. Everything goes in a new folder called game in files.
 
Last edited:

Spfjolietjake

Conversation Conqueror
Sep 26, 2019
7,515
14,666
What? As it is right now, this already is cookie cutter, mid-range, 'been there, done that'. Now it can improve the writing and visuals to make it better and help it rise above, or stay the course and continue to tread water in mediocrity. But hey, not everyone has taste...

Also, notice that I did break paragraphs whenever I moved onto a new idea. This isn't Discord. Nor am I writing at a elementary school level. You don't need to break after every 2-3 sentences. Sorry (not sorry) if you couldn't keep up.
Again I disagree with pretty much your whole statement. But you are right about one thing not everyone has taste. :p

This vn is unique and very enjoyable as is.

I can keep up just fine. Walls of text are never a good thing but it's your thoughts if you want them mainly ignored right on. :)
 

kytee

Member
Dec 17, 2018
326
724
Besides that, the writing is fairly bland. It technically hits Tier 2 status, but largely lacks real style or creativity, while having some technical issues. I largely group the writing for these erotica games into 3 tiers, with higher tiers being generally more technically competent and typically better written and (for me anyways) more enjoyable. Tier 1 would be dialogue only, a game where almost every line on screen is someone talking; including entire lewd sequences that amount to characters just moaning back and forth to one another or saying out loud how horny/excited they are. That is the least technically proficient writing, and Tier 1 games are an instant pass for me; I don't have enough hours in the day to waste my time reading that level of drivel. Next up is Tier 2, which is dialogue plus internal monologue; you can read character's inner thoughts. This allows for more skilled writers to be creative in how they build their characters and describe situations. Like anything there are gradients, and this can be done more or less skillfully, but I do consider this the bare minimum level of writing proficiency for me to continue with a game past the 5~10 minute mark, and Depth's Revival does clear that threshold. Tier 3 would be all that, plus flavor text. Descriptions of the world, the setting or scene, actions taking place, all outside of a character's inner dialogue. Stuff like describing how a location smells, or makes a character feel, or events that are happening; basically a solid 3rd person descriptive narration. This is what you need to do to take your writing to the next level, and it is a bar that few games manage to reach; but the ones that do make this shortlist tend to be the ones setting the gold standard for this sub-genre of amateur created erotica games (I'm talking about Being a DIK, Our Red String, City of Broken Dreamers, Casting Director, Seeds of Chaos, Kingdom of Deception, Pale Carnations, Now & Then, etc.).
Wow, what an absolutely absurd way of categorizing writing. You go from low tier being dialogue only, to the highest tier being third person narration, all under the guise of it all being constructive criticism. There's nothing constructive about what you've written here and your following claim is absolutely idiotic.
Stuff like describing how a location smells, or makes a character feel, or events that are happening; basically a solid 3rd person descriptive narration. This is what you need to do to take your writing to the next level, and it is a bar that few games manage to reach...
What you're touting might apply to a standard novel or a medium that lacks visuals, but this medium, a VISUAL novel, does not abide by the same rules or best practices. Case being it is absolutely redundant to describe what you can clearly see in the visuals. The only reason why the games you listed describes a scene is because it doesn't require a separate render to show the audience. It's cheap and it's lazy; Why show some things happening on screen and then describe what happens next instead of also showing what's happening? Why are we flip flopping between visuals being the focal point for the prose in some scenes, and then the prose being the focal point for the visuals in others? Also, just because a developer opts to show you an image instead of describe everything to you doesn't mean he is any less of a writer. If you're going to make the claim that Seacth needs to improve his writing, you need to give more concrete examples and a more objective grading system that isn't so ridiculous.

Speaking of which, let's discuss your not-constructive feedback tier list. Based off what you wrote above, I assume you probably think script writing for movies and TV shows is "the least technically proficient writing". Read some screenplays by Aaron Sorkin, Quentin Tarantino, and Stanley Kubrick, all three of whom write what you would likely consider to be "Tier 1" writing, dialogue only, and have won numerous awards for outstanding writing in their attributed films. Try to tell me that they aren't extremely competent writers who would break your dumb grading scale. I'm not going to sit here and talk about the theories of screenwriting and the interplays of dialogue and visuals, you are an "Art Major" so I trust you'll be able to understand or have the capabilities of researching what makes those three amazing writers and how different writing screenplays and writing novels are.

I'm not trying to say that Seacth is a great writer, but you claiming that his writing is bad because he doesn't have "third person descriptive narration" in a medium that doesn't require it is the absolute dumbest thing I have read in a while.
 
Last edited:

Seacth

Active Member
Game Developer
Sep 19, 2020
504
2,134
If you change relationship stuff with Mrs. Bell in chapter 1 will you then need to change the rest of the game?

6.5 was fucking great, the ending has me wanting more. One thing though and I'm not trying to be a butthole but Melinda would look so much better without that tattoo it's gross not even gonna lie. Is it barbwire? Don't get me wrong tats can be hot, her weird half body wrap barbwire is not. Anyway good update.
No, the relationship will stay the same but the same things going to happen with a different tone. And I like Melinda's tattoo it's made from her rebel days when she was missing.
 

Seacth

Active Member
Game Developer
Sep 19, 2020
504
2,134
Again I disagree with pretty much your whole statement. But you are right about one thing not everyone has taste. :p

This vn is unique and very enjoyable as is.

I can keep up just fine. Walls of text are never a good thing but it's your thoughts if you want them mainly ignored right on. :)
Don't you worry, I'll be sure the keep most of the early chapters same but with just better writing and graphics.
 

Seacth

Active Member
Game Developer
Sep 19, 2020
504
2,134
Wow, what an absolutely absurd way of categorizing writing. You go from low tier being dialogue only, to the highest tier being third person narration, all under the guise of it all being constructive criticism. There's nothing constructive about what you've written here and your following claim is absolutely idiotic.

What you're touting might apply to a standard novel or a medium that lacks visuals, but this medium, a VISUAL novel, does not abide by the same rules or best practices. Case being it is absolutely redundant to describe what you can clearly see in the visuals. The only reason why the games you listed describes a scene is because it doesn't require a separate render to show the audience. It's cheap and it's lazy; Why show some things happening on screen and then describe what happens next instead of also showing what's happening? Why are we flip flopping between visuals being the focal point for the prose in some scenes, and then the prose being the focal point for the visuals in others? Also, just because a developer opts to show you an image instead of describe everything to you doesn't mean he is any less of a writer. If you're going to make the claim that Seacth needs to improve his writing, you need to give more concrete examples and a more objective grading system that isn't so ridiculous.

Speaking of which, let's discuss your not-constructive feedback tier list. Based off what you wrote above, I assume you probably think script writing for movies and TV shows is "the least technically proficient writing". Read some screenplays by Aaron Sorkin, Quentin Tarantino, and Stanley Kubrick, all three of whom write what you would likely consider to be "Tier 1" writing, dialogue only, and have won numerous awards for outstanding writing in their attributed films. Try to tell me that they aren't extremely competent writers who would break your dumb grading scale. I'm not going to sit here and talk about the theories of screenwriting and the interplays of dialogue and visuals, you are an "Art Major" so I trust you'll be able to understand or have the capabilities of researching what makes those three amazing writers and how different writing screenplays and writing novels are.

I'm not trying to say that Seacth is a great writer, but you claiming that his writing is bad because he doesn't have "third person descriptive narration" in a medium that doesn't require it is the absolute dumbest thing I have read in a while.
I'll agree with you about the third person writing style. This is mainly a visual novel and I do try to give most of the scenes via images instead of descriptions but in the early versions I had some weird third person writing and I think maybe EvolutionKills was talking about those weird writings.

But once I'm done with the remake I'll try and make it more like the latest chapters which tells the story with the mix of both of them.
 

Abhishek_tanwar

Active Member
Feb 20, 2021
887
3,545
EDIT: Please take this for what it is, constructive criticism. I'm not here to dunk on your work or make you feel bad, but nobody is served well by pulling their punches during honest critique. I was an Art Major in college, that's just how I roll.

Well, so far I'm up to the MC and their 'mom' together in the bath, and it's just mediocre so far. The premise is alright enough, the conceit of the MC's subconscious as an illusion that not only can they perceive, but effectively acts as their own personality, is fun. But that's really the most the game has going for it.

Besides that, the writing is fairly bland. It technically hits Tier 2 status, but largely lacks real style or creativity, while having some technical issues. I largely group the writing for these erotica games into 3 tiers, with higher tiers being generally more technically competent and typically better written and (for me anyways) more enjoyable. Tier 1 would be dialogue only, a game where almost every line on screen is someone talking; including entire lewd sequences that amount to characters just moaning back and forth to one another or saying out loud how horny/excited they are. That is the least technically proficient writing, and Tier 1 games are an instant pass for me; I don't have enough hours in the day to waste my time reading that level of drivel. Next up is Tier 2, which is dialogue plus internal monologue; you can read character's inner thoughts. This allows for more skilled writers to be creative in how they build their characters and describe situations. Like anything there are gradients, and this can be done more or less skillfully, but I do consider this the bare minimum level of writing proficiency for me to continue with a game past the 5~10 minute mark, and Depth's Revival does clear that threshold. Tier 3 would be all that, plus flavor text. Descriptions of the world, the setting or scene, actions taking place, all outside of a character's inner dialogue. Stuff like describing how a location smells, or makes a character feel, or events that are happening; basically a solid 3rd person descriptive narration. This is what you need to do to take your writing to the next level, and it is a bar that few games manage to reach; but the ones that do make this shortlist tend to be the ones setting the gold standard for this sub-genre of amateur created erotica games (I'm talking about Being a DIK, Our Red String, City of Broken Dreamers, Casting Director, Seeds of Chaos, Kingdom of Deception, Pale Carnations, Now & Then, etc.).

There are moments when some personality can peak out and make itself know, typically with Serena's dialogue and the her banter with the MC, or the maledom interactions with Imogen. But even then the best parts I saw never got better than 'great', and it often fell well short of that. There are some technical issues, where a good proofreader or editor would be helpful. Instances of repeating the same word multiple times in quick succession, things that perhaps look okay when you are writing them but just sound awkward when you actually read them back. Examples like this...

View attachment 1453948

You shouldn't be repeating 'lover' like that so close together. There are a number of ways to fix this, from rewriting the sentence, to using word replacement. The simplest fix would be to just replace the second 'lover' with 'beloved'.

"It's a lover's duty to take care of her exhausted beloved."

It means the same, but changing that one word drastically improves the flow and readability of that sentence. I'd still probably opt for reworking the whole sentence, but there are instances of this sprinkled throughout where even changing just a word or two would be a noticeable improvement.

As for the overarching meta narrative, it leaves something to be desired. Prime example here is the relationship with the MC's teacher, Mrs. Bell. I don't buy it, at all. I get that you want to have lewd scenes early and often, and there are better and worse ways to do that. Creative context opens up a lot of options, including one you made use of a few times, the old fan-favorite that is the dream sequence. It allows you to do lewd stuff, with little to no lasting effect on the narrative; allowing you to show the goods for characters that are otherwise on the track to slow burn (another frequent trope used for this is the perennial flashback). The problem with Mrs. Bell is that you chose to go with a pretty vanilla love route, and it just does not work within the context. The time frame is far too short for the level of love and devotions being opined, and crucially, in our time with the MC they simply haven't put in the work for it to be believable. Our interactions with Mrs. Bell are very limited. Your first encounter is just chatting in the parking lot, then later presenting your homework in front of the class with a visible boner (to which Mrs. Bell does little else but blush). Next day she is just present to teach class, no noteworthy interaction at all. The next day you meet her in the hospital after rescuing her missing daughter. The very next day after that, you're meeting her afterschool and you are fucking her while she spills her heart out. Maybe this wasn't as noticeable in the moment, releasing updates over months of time, but it is jarringly abrupt coming at it with a fresh set of eyes.

I get that the MC rescued her daughter, so that is a bit of set-up and pay-off within the established narrative. You could still have a lewd scene here, including sex, but you can't frame it like they're star-crossed lovers when this is the sum total of their interactions we get to see in game. Mrs. Bell could absolutely be down to fuck the MC here, but context is key. This could have been a fun instance of the teacher having the hots for a student, being physically attracted, but being unwilling to cross that line and indulge in the taboo. It is then the daughter rescue that pushes her over the edge and is her excuse to act on those urges, all under the guise of rewarding the MC (because she isn't ready to just give into her lust/feelings this early). You could then keep building upon that, having fun toying around with the 'will they/won't they' aspect of their nascent relationship. Will one of them eventually call it off? Will they fall into a mutually comfortable friends-with-benefits situation? Or will one of them try to push for something more serious? If given enough time and instances for Mrs. Bell and the MC to interact and build upon, you could eventually have the foundations for going down the path of hopelessly infatuated star-crossed lovers. But in this version? You simply haven't earned it. Not only that, but because the narrative hasn't earned it, the act of turning up the love dial to 11 is itself an immersion breaking experience. These characters aren't acting like how normal people should act given the circumstances, and it jettisons me right out of the experience; and that is both bad writing and bad narrative structure.

Onto the visuals, there are a lot of games using Illusion's Honey Select 1/2 for their assets. While I have seen it done worse, I've also seen it far, far better. In general the game lacks any interesting or creative shot composition, the game is mostly flat static shots of the world from what is presumed to be the MC's perspective 99% of the time. You'll occasionally get a 3rd person shot to illustrate another character's view, but they're few and far between. There really aren't any establishing shots to introduce characters, locations, or even scenes. Such a narrative framing really limits the game visually, and the presentation suffers accordingly. Now a lot of game do this (including games that I like), but that doesn't make it less boring.

Technically speaking, my biggest gripe has to be the awful default penis the MC is stuck with. That thing was never intended to be seen without the Japanese-state required censoring, and it shows, cause it doesn't look like an actual penis. Lets be real, it's ugly and awkward even by dildo standards. I know that good looking penises exist for these assets, in the form of mods presumably. Compared to The Anomalous Dr. Vibes...

View attachment 1453893

...or Pale Carnations...

View attachment 1453894

...this thing just isn't cutting it. Again, it would be an unsettling looking dildo, let alone a piece of actual human anatomy.

View attachment 1453897

Also in other scenes when you are completely naked, like the Imogen maledom sequence, you can clearly see that the cock and balls are separate parts not attached to the body.

View attachment 1454018

Again, they were never meant to be seen without the pixilation filter overlaying them, so the developers at Illusion didn't bother to put in the work to make the genitalia all one seamless unit with the body. They're separate pieces, floating next to and intersecting each other; like a piece of plumbing coming out of a wall with a pair of fuzzy dice hanging off it.

You do however try to pose your characters and have them react the to conversations, events, and the general world around them. That's good, but it could be better. A lot of it is reused over and over again, especially that pose where a girl hides both of her hands behind her back. I suspect a lot of these are stock poses within Honey Select (and I know all of the lewd animations are). More variety would help spice things up and stop the game from looking so samey.

There are also some questionable sequences, like the fight with Toni's posse while rescuing Melinda. So you get rushed by Jimmy alone, and with Serena's prompting you sidestep to the left, with the idea being to set you up for a counter attack. Fair enough. How did you stage this visually?

View attachment 1454048

View attachment 1454049

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What is that? Going from the first to the second frame, you wasted time and effort to square yourself up after the sidestep, which would cause you to not just lose momentum in every sense. Not only does it make little sense when you think of it, visually it also breaks the flow of the action. It's like in a movie when you have a cut in a sequence of someone shooting a gun at someone, and they are on the right of the frame while face and firing at a target on the left side of the frame. To maintain flow of the action, if the next cut shows their target, then the characters had better be reacting to shots coming from the ride side of the frame. If they were to return fire, they had better be looking and shooting from left to right. If they are ducking for cover, they better be dodging bullets coming at them from the right side of the frame. It helps you keep sense of relative positions during an action sequence. What he have here isn't quite as bad as doing a right-to-left action followed by right-to-left reaction, but its the same principal.

Things get wonkier moving from frame two to three. Jimmy whiffs with his right punch, and the MC is awkwardly twisting with his left arm raised and his right lowered. Why is this awkward? Cause he's winding up for an uppercut. An uppercut that needs to go under and around Jimmy's extended right arm, if it has any hope to connect with his face. WUT!? Dude, the MC's left arm is already raised. The thing to show in order to maintain the momentum you do have (and the smart move to boot), is to hit Jimmy with a left hook. Continue with the line of motion, follow through with the left arm being raised. Continue to twist the torso (as was shown in frame one), and use that momentum to bring the MC's left first into Jimmy's overexposed face. Frame three should be Jimmy getting laid out (face first) from a left hook after the MC dodged to the left, after having let Jimmy's charging punch pass him by harmlessly.


All in all, the visuals are adequate. They're not so bad they take me out of the experience (except for anytime the MC's dick is front and center, and the fight choreography), but there is also plenty of room for improvement.


So in summation, it's been a pretty average experience. It isn't so bad I've stopped, but I'm not sure how long it'll keep my attention, and I've not yet seen anything that would have me recommend this game to someone else. There are plenty of other games that cover these particular kinks already, and just do it better. The only thing novel going for it is the self-actualized subconscious illusion that is Serena, but that alone isn't enough to raise the experience (so far) above mediocrity.
I was an Art Major in college, that's just how I roll. : No need you to underline your professional expertise(Just like no one does, There is reason for that) here, If you are being honest as fan off-course. Your words "I was an Art Major in college" here shows great weakness because you are using professional achievement to make your words carry more weight then they suppose to.

Issue Number 1. : MC and their 'mom' together in the bath : The concept to Incest is most fragile and almost impossible to implement, so as 99.99% VN games developer do they include kinky vies(It's suppose to be fun rather than realist) at the best of their ability. Pick any Incest based VN game that have justified Incest on real standard. It's Impossible so it's turned into just a kinkiness, That is why what you asking the serious concept is stupid because Incest can't be the part serious concept. That is common scene.

Issue Number 2. : Real style or creativity : In the end of that paragraph you have showed your real requirements but at the core, you are asking for real concept(Do you understand the gravity of your words. . .?) These games "Being a DIK" , "City of broken dreamers " are based on real life concept COBD : Possible future concept regarding biological and AI experiments and their possible outcomes. BID : MC'S collage life journey. Do you understand they sound real because they have real concept and Incest is not real concept, It's exception at best.
Again : These VN game are Different coin rather then to two side of it. So again read Point one form here, Again.

Issue Number 3 : "These grammar Nazis" : How much time do you spend finding that issue, In other words you were looking for it. Most of the fans are based realize, not on grammar and it's related issue. As 3rd person while playing game, If dev is successful to explain and carryout realize with his words. That is enough. Most Hardcore player(Even professional game stammer) took these point as funny. So now it comes it simple question "Why are you here with hammer ?"

Issue Number 4 : The flawed concept( The teacher relation ) :
1.1 You understand " I get that the MC rescued her daughter, so that is a bit of set-up and pay-off within the established narrative. " Then why didn't you understand when Mc's teacher said "She always have felling for him, liked him and fallen for him"Off-course i am not 100% word to words right here but that was the simple message.

2. Your said " The problem with Mrs. Bell is that you chose to go with a pretty vanilla love route, and it just does not work within the context. " The false concept of relation would have applied here, In another words you would have been right if Mrs bell didn't have done the point Number 1.1. It's fragile but acceptable.

You understate this perfectly : You siad " This could have been a fun instance of the teacher having the hots for a student, being physically attracted, but being unwilling to cross that line and indulge in the taboo. It is then the daughter rescue that pushes her over the edge and is her excuse to act on those urges, all under the guise of rewarding the MC (because she isn't ready to just give into her lust/feelings this early). "
And Also
" I get that you want to have lewd scenes early and often "
" The time frame is far too short for the level of love and devotions being opined, and crucially, in our time with the MC they simply haven't put in the work for it to be believable "


You are countering your own words but anyway. For Info "For a mother there is noting more important in the world then her child(The basic of human moral) or suppose to be(In the days woman kill more child in their womb every single day then they born every single day) "
So mc saving her child is suppose to be enough to make solid relation between mc and his teacher, If not then I don't know What will.

Issue Number 5 : The Graphics :
Most of the point you have made regarding Graphics related issue are correct yet the remember In any lewd scene for a man "Woman is the center of attraction" and the dialog delivery regarding intimates relation is outstanding to give it a + +.

Issue Number 6. : The fighting sequence : Understand this very clearly the fighting simulation and simple Vn concept of fighting narration is two different animal.:FacePalm:

fighting simulation : Require to be correct as much as possible of 3rd person Input and choices. Like Being a dik fighting simulation yet that game also have 70-80% accuracy regarding that issue.


Vn concept of fighting narration(It's not an animation) : It's a simple portrait of what can ,can not be with surprising acceptance of lack of details and correctness because that will alone add 100 render(Animation could be wrong but VN concept of fighting narration are just portrait of possibility ) to make a situation 100% true. IT'S NOT FIGHTING SIMULATION. Do you understand making a fighting sequence with detailed, do know how much moment of multiple people or character will require. :FacePalm:
=============================================================================
Overall You have raised one issue correctly.
 
Sep 9, 2021
433
626
I was an Art Major in college, that's just how I roll. : No need you to underline your professional expertise(Just like no one does, There is reason for that) here, If you are being honest as fan off-course. Your words "I was an Art Major in college" here shows great weakness because you are using professional achievement to make your words carry more weight then they suppose to.

Issue Number 1. : MC and their 'mom' together in the bath : The concept to Incest is most fragile and almost impossible to implement, so as 99.99% VN games developer do they include kinky vies(It's suppose to be fun rather than realist) at the best of their ability. Pick any Incest based VN game that have justified Incest on real standard. It's Impossible so it's turned into just a kinkiness, That is why what you asking the serious concept is stupid because Incest can't be the part serious concept. That is common scene.

Issue Number 2. : Real style or creativity : In the end of that paragraph you have showed your real requirements but at the core, you are asking for real concept(Do you understand the gravity of your words. . .?) These games "Being a DIK" , "City of broken dreamers " are based on real life concept COBD : Possible future concept regarding biological and AI experiments and their possible outcomes. BID : MC'S collage life journey. Do you understand they sound real because they have real concept and Incest is not real concept, It's exception at best.
Again : These VN game are Different coin rather then to two side of it. So again read Point one form here, Again.

Issue Number 3 : "These grammar Nazis" : How much time do you spend finding that issue, In other words you were looking for it. Most of the fans are based realize, not on grammar and it's related issue. As 3rd person while playing game, If dev is successful to explain and carryout realize with his words. That is enough. Most Hardcore player(Even professional game stammer) took these point as funny. So now it comes it simple question "Why are you here with hammer ?"

Issue Number 4 : The flawed concept( The teacher relation ) :
1.1 You understand " I get that the MC rescued her daughter, so that is a bit of set-up and pay-off within the established narrative. " Then why didn't you understand when Mc's teacher said "She always have felling for him, liked him and fallen for him"Off-course i am not 100% word to words right here but that was the simple message.

2. Your said " The problem with Mrs. Bell is that you chose to go with a pretty vanilla love route, and it just does not work within the context. " The false concept of relation would have applied here, In another words you would have been right if Mrs bell didn't have done the point Number 1.1. It's fragile but acceptable.

You understate this perfectly : You siad " This could have been a fun instance of the teacher having the hots for a student, being physically attracted, but being unwilling to cross that line and indulge in the taboo. It is then the daughter rescue that pushes her over the edge and is her excuse to act on those urges, all under the guise of rewarding the MC (because she isn't ready to just give into her lust/feelings this early). "
And Also
" I get that you want to have lewd scenes early and often "
" The time frame is far too short for the level of love and devotions being opined, and crucially, in our time with the MC they simply haven't put in the work for it to be believable "


You are countering your own words but anyway. For Info "For a mother there is noting more important in the world then her child(The basic of human moral) or suppose to be(In the days woman kill more child in their womb every single day then they born every single day) "
So mc saving her child is suppose to be enough to make solid relation between mc and his teacher, If not then I don't know What will.

Issue Number 5 : The Graphics :
Most of the point you have made regarding Graphics related issue are correct yet the remember In any lewd scene for a man "Woman is the center of attraction" and the dialog delivery regarding intimates relation is outstanding to give it a + +.

Issue Number 6. : The fighting sequence : Understand this very clearly the fighting simulation and simple Vn concept of fighting narration is two different animal.:FacePalm:

fighting simulation : Require to be correct as much as possible of 3rd person Input and choices. Like Being a dik fighting simulation yet that game also have 70-80% accuracy regarding that issue.

Vn concept of fighting narration(It's not an animation) : It's a simple portrait of what can ,can not be with surprising acceptance of lack of details and correctness because that will alone add 100 render(Animation could be wrong but VN concept of fighting narration are just portrait of possibility ) to make a situation 100% true. IT'S NOT FIGHTING SIMULATION. Do you understand making a fighting sequence with detailed, do know how much moment of multiple people or character will require. :FacePalm:

=============================================================================
Overall You have raised one issue correctly.

Agreed ! :rolleyes:
I'll agree with you about the third person writing style. This is mainly a visual novel and I do try to give most of the scenes via images instead of descriptions but in the early versions I had some weird third person writing and I think maybe EvolutionKills was talking about those weird writings.

But once I'm done with the remake I'll try and make it more like the latest chapters which tells the story with the mix of both of them.
Please dev ask your and people which are paying you for the game. Please don't take any fast decision.

Just because someone said something with lots of words doesn't mean they are right. !
 

Seacth

Active Member
Game Developer
Sep 19, 2020
504
2,134
Agreed ! :rolleyes:

Please dev ask your and people which are paying you for the game. Please don't take any fast decision.

Just because someone said something with lots of words doesn't mean they are right. !
I was already working for the remake for a month in my free times and I've mentioned about it to patrons and the people on my discord before and I didn't heard any complaints about remaking the first chapters. Some of them just worried about that it might delay the next chapter so I'm working on the remake only in my free times.

And I promise that the remake will just improve the early images and some of the dialogues that's all. No major changes to story or removal of any content and it might probably add more detailed scenes :3
 

EvolutionKills

Well-Known Member
Jan 3, 2021
1,192
3,930
Wow, what an absolutely absurd way of categorizing writing. You go from low tier being dialogue only, to the highest tier being third person narration, all under the guise of it all being constructive criticism. There's nothing constructive about what you've written here and your following claim is absolutely idiotic.
It's a visual novel. Visual novel. Can you name me a novel that stands as a great work that is all dialogue? Or just dialogue and internal monologue? Hell, even in comic books and graphic novels, the really good ones are the ones that don't skimp on the details; many of those details that simply cannot be easy conveyed visually. It's a real simple rubric, not the be-all-end-all ruler of objective grading of narrative. What it is however is a real quick litmus test to see which creators have the skill, and have invested the time and effort, to really make the novel part of their visual novel stand out. That is not 'absolutely idiotic', but your hyperbolic reaction is.


What you're touting might apply to a standard novel or a medium that lacks visuals, but this medium, a VISUAL novel, does not abide by the same rules or best practices. Case being it is absolutely redundant to describe what you can clearly see in the visuals. The only reason why the games you listed describes a scene is because it doesn't require a separate render to show the audience. It's cheap and it's lazy; Why show some things happening on screen and then describe what happens next instead of also showing what's happening? Why are we flip flopping between visuals being the focal point for the prose in some scenes, and then the prose being the focal point for the visuals in others? Also, just because a developer opts to show you an image instead of describe everything to you doesn't mean he is any less of a writer. If you're going to make the claim that Seacth needs to improve his writing, you need to give more concrete examples and a more objective grading system that isn't so ridiculous.
So, you somehow missed the point that it is all mediocre and lacking, both visually and narratively. The renders need work, the framing needs work, the posing needs work, the writing needs work, the narrative story needs work; it could all be better and improved upon. The game isn't even bad, something that I did expressly point out, but it is most certainly mediocre. The fact that the writing needs work doesn't preclude me from pointing out shortcomings with the visuals. To claim otherwise is crazy talk.

Also, if Seacth wanted me to give more examples, I certainly could. If they asked me to help with some proofreading or editing, depending on the workload and timetables, I could see myself trying to help. But what I'm not going to do is volunteer to be an unpaid editor and give the entire game script a once-over pro bono. But I've got people reacting with facepalms claiming that I wrote too much, and now I have you trying to dress me down for not writing enough examples; and at this time I'm not particularly moved to try to please either camp.


Speaking of which, let's discuss your not-constructive feedback tier list. Based off what you wrote above, I assume you probably think script writing for movies and TV shows is "the least technically proficient writing". Read some screenplays by Aaron Sorkin, Quentin Tarantino, and Stanley Kubrick, all three of whom write what you would likely consider to be "Tier 1" writing, dialogue only, and have won numerous awards for outstanding writing in their attributed films. Try to tell me that they aren't extremely competent writers who would break your dumb grading scale. I'm not going to sit here and talk about the theories of screenwriting and the interplays of dialogue and visuals, you are an "Art Major" so I trust you'll be able to understand or have the capabilities of researching what makes those three amazing writers and how different writing screenplays and writing novels are.
That is an awful strawman you are beating up there. If you took a dialogue only script and tried selling it as a novel, that would be bad. Scripts lack the meat on the bones to really be compelling works in their own right, because they are intended to be the foundation for another medium. It is up to the actors, the director, the rest of the crew, editors and post production, to capture things like a character's subtle reaction to a line of dialogue; things that novelists can spend paragraphs describing. They are different mediums, with different standards; and amateur erotica visual novels are no different. Some things work better than others.

These game largely are not animated, and while they might involve a lot of different scene renders, they're rarely done with eyes towards good posing and shot composition. The visuals can only lift so much of the weight, which is why having good writing to accompany good visuals is key for making the overall package great. Also, a little bit goes a long ways.

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Sequence from Sisterly Lust by Perverteer Games.

How aroused is the MC at the end of this sequence? Hold-onto-the-bedsheets-cause-she's-gonna-rock-your-world. Did we need a separate render of the MC clenching the sheets? No. A single sentence can do a lot of heavy lifting, without condescending to the audience. A lesser writer would have the MC say how aroused they were, a middle of the road writer might have the MC think of how aroused they were, but Perverteer Games uses a single sentence to describe the MC's actions in a bid to show us how aroused he is (this is the VN equivalent of the 'show don't tell' golden rule of cinema).

Perverteer Games gets a lot of millage out of that one render of Susan head on, nine frames of text for one render. You have some descriptive flavor text, followed by ten pages of dialogue, then more flavor text. It doesn't need to be paragraphs, you don't need to replace all of the dialogue with 3rd person narration, nor was I ever advocating for that.

See Also: All of the examples I listed in my critique, which all contain solid visual and writing.

But even for scripts, competent ones include notes on delivery and staging; good scripts do supply ancillary details. They're just not a fleshed out or as thorough as they would be in another medium (like say, a novel), because again, the point is that the visuals will do a lot of the heavy lifting in the final product.


I'm not trying to say that Seacth is a great writer, but you claiming that his writing is bad because he doesn't have "third person descriptive narration" in a medium that doesn't require it is the absolute dumbest thing I have read in a while.
I rather think your not at all constructive butthurt tirade takes that title.
 

EvolutionKills

Well-Known Member
Jan 3, 2021
1,192
3,930
I was an Art Major in college, that's just how I roll. : No need you to underline your professional expertise(Just like no one does, There is reason for that) here, If you are being honest as fan off-course. Your words "I was an Art Major in college" here shows great weakness because you are using professional achievement to make your words carry more weight then they suppose to.
Uh, no? I have a creative background, one that I pursued to a college level. But it wasn't literature, it was Game Design & Animation. I didn't spell it out specifically, because the point wasn't to lean on my degree for authority. That was just a preamble to explain why I value honest critique, and that even if it sounds harsh, it wasn't done to be mean our out of spite. None of my latter opinions or reasoning are built upon the basis that 'I have a degree so listen to me', it's meant to illustrate my experience with critique at the academic level.


Issue Number 1. : MC and their 'mom' together in the bath : The concept to Incest is most fragile and almost impossible to implement, so as 99.99% VN games developer do they include kinky vies(It's suppose to be fun rather than realist) at the best of their ability. Pick any Incest based VN game that have justified Incest on real standard. It's Impossible so it's turned into just a kinkiness, That is why what you asking the serious concept is stupid because Incest can't be the part serious concept. That is common scene.
Not sure why you brought this up. I never questioned the inherent premise of the incest-fest game. They all require a bit of suspension of disbelief, but there are better and worse ways to go about it. This game isn't the worst, but it's hardly the best; again it is a solid example of mediocrity. C+ work, enough to pass, but you're not even in the running for class valedictorian.


Issue Number 2. : Real style or creativity : In the end of that paragraph you have showed your real requirements but at the core, you are asking for real concept(Do you understand the gravity of your words. . .?) These games "Being a DIK" , "City of broken dreamers " are based on real life concept COBD : Possible future concept regarding biological and AI experiments and their possible outcomes. BID : MC'S collage life journey. Do you understand they sound real because they have real concept and Incest is not real concept, It's exception at best.
Again : These VN game are Different coin rather then to two side of it. So again read Point one form here, Again.
Wut?

I'm not even sure if I can parse that.

Those games are examples of titles with exceptional visual direction accompanied by solid writing. Within the context of the worlds they build, their characters act and react in ways that makes sense and are believable. The creators don't shatter my suspension of disbelief, they put in the work (again, with solid writing and visuals) to sell me on their dystopian cyberpunk futurism or their collegiate debauchery.

I never claimed that simple adherence to reality was the pinnacle of creative writing. So no, you didn't catch me being hypocritical or something cause I cited City of Broken Dreamers as an example of a stellar game that rises above its peers.


Issue Number 3 : "These grammar Nazis" : How much time do you spend finding that issue, In other words you were looking for it. Most of the fans are based realize, not on grammar and it's related issue. As 3rd person while playing game, If dev is successful to explain and carryout realize with his words. That is enough. Most Hardcore player(Even professional game stammer) took these point as funny. So now it comes it simple question "Why are you here with hammer ?"
I don't know, why are you so butthurt about my critique that you spent your time to write up your meandering screed?

The dev replied to me saying that they hoped I enjoyed the game. In the spirit of open and honest dialogue, I gave my sincere impressions of what I had experienced thus far. I cited examples of things I see that could be improved upon, then made suggestions on how to make those improvements. I didn't just say it was 'bad' and moved on. I said it was largely mediocre, cited specific examples, and offered concrete suggestions for improvement.

What have you done? Got angry at someone who put honest effort into trying to make the game you like be a little better.

citizen-kane-clap.gif


Issue Number 4 : The flawed concept( The teacher relation ) :
1.1 You understand " I get that the MC rescued her daughter, so that is a bit of set-up and pay-off within the established narrative. " Then why didn't you understand when Mc's teacher said "She always have felling for him, liked him and fallen for him"Off-course i am not 100% word to words right here but that was the simple message.
Maybe try reading the whole critique? I explained it pretty thoroughly.

It was an example of 'tell, don't show'. We didn't see the teacher during these earlier moments that she grew feelings for the MC. How long has she had these feelings? What did the MC do, that other students did not, that made those feelings grow? We don't see any of that, we are just told she has these (new to the player) feelings for the MC, and we are told she has had them for a long time. We never really saw anything to support this, and I broke down how abrupt and unearned this was narratively.

You can tell the audience that two characters are in love, but if you don't show it, it will fall flat. That is one of the large problems with George Lucas' writing in the prequel Star Wars trilogy. He is really bad at showing Anakin being in love with Padme or being friends with Obi-Wan. We need to be told repeated that these things are true, because the rest of the movie frequently fails to backup these assertions, and it's why Anakin's relationships with these characters feel so empty and hollow. We are told Anakin and Obi-Wan a great friends, they talk about their past adventures (that we don't get to see), and then spend the rest of the movie (the part we do see) watching them argue and fight with each other.

The audience being told they are friends contradicts what the movies is showing us; we don't see two friends having a falling out, we just see two people who don't really like each other constantly bickering with each other. George Lucas failed to sell the audience on Anakin and Obi-Wan being friends, much in the same way Seacth failed to sell Mrs. Bell being deeply in love with the MC. Just telling us she is madly in love is lazy. The foundational work needed to show us Mrs. Bell is madly in love with the MC simply isn't there. It is a case of bad writing, and indicative of a bad narrative structure, in this instance.


2. Your said " The problem with Mrs. Bell is that you chose to go with a pretty vanilla love route, and it just does not work within the context. " The false concept of relation would have applied here, In another words you would have been right if Mrs bell didn't have done the point Number 1.1. It's fragile but acceptable.
Except it really doesn't. It 'works' insofar as it is does the bare minimum to cover the bases, but it is lazy writing that cuts corners in the name of expediency. Again, it is passable. But there is so much room for improvement here. It could be so much better. I took that as a one-off example of that I could use to illustrate the point, that 'show don't tell' makes for better and more believable characters. As it is currently written, I don't believe Mrs. Bell when she confesses her feelings to the MC. The story hasn't earned that level of credulity. The relationship is too fast, and springs practically out of nowhere, and thus it feels hollow and unearned. I want to know what did the MC do to stoke this fire, the fan the flames of her desire? I want to know WHY she loves the MC like she does. The game doesn't show us. Thus, it is something that can be improved upon.


You understate this perfectly : You siad " This could have been a fun instance of the teacher having the hots for a student, being physically attracted, but being unwilling to cross that line and indulge in the taboo. It is then the daughter rescue that pushes her over the edge and is her excuse to act on those urges, all under the guise of rewarding the MC (because she isn't ready to just give into her lust/feelings this early). "
And Also
" I get that you want to have lewd scenes early and often "
" The time frame is far too short for the level of love and devotions being opined, and crucially, in our time with the MC they simply haven't put in the work for it to be believable "


You are countering your own words but anyway. For Info "For a mother there is noting more important in the world then her child(The basic of human moral) or suppose to be(In the days woman kill more child in their womb every single day then they born every single day) "
So mc saving her child is suppose to be enough to make solid relation between mc and his teacher, If not then I don't know What will.
If this were true, then paramedics, police, and firemen would be neck deep in pussy all the time. They are not...

But they aren't. Also, you again entirely missed the point of my critique. I explicitly said that Mrs. Bell could use the daughter rescue as an excuse to fuck the MC, but that it required different circumstances. Circumstances that don't currently exist in the game. You could write a believable scenario where Mrs. Bell fucks the MC after rescuing her daughter, but to make it at all believable, would require a rewrite and entirely new context. One example which I happily provided as an alternative to what was written, as just one possible way to square that particular circle.


Issue Number 6. : The fighting sequence : Understand this very clearly the fighting simulation and simple Vn concept of fighting narration is two different animal.:FacePalm:

fighting simulation : Require to be correct as much as possible of 3rd person Input and choices. Like Being a dik fighting simulation yet that game also have 70-80% accuracy regarding that issue.

Vn concept of fighting narration(It's not an animation) : It's a simple portrait of what can ,can not be with surprising acceptance of lack of details and correctness because that will alone add 100 render(Animation could be wrong but VN concept of fighting narration are just portrait of possibility ) to make a situation 100% true. IT'S NOT FIGHTING SIMULATION. Do you understand making a fighting sequence with detailed, do know how much moment of multiple people or character will require. :FacePalm:

=============================================================================
Overall You have raised one issue correctly.
I don't need absolute physical accuracy, nor did I ever claim as such, so you can take your Pickard facepalm and stow it.

The point was that the fight, as presented, shattered by suspension of disbelief, because the staging was so poor. That doesn't mean that I need perfect one-to-one Hollywood level fight choreography. What it does mean is that the poses of the characters need to at least be good enough that they can sell the audience on the fight. That they're not so bad, they take people out of the experience. They just need to be 'good enough' that people aren't stopping to wonder 'WTF is going on here?' when looking at the characters.

There are a dozen different way to make that fight better. But the fastest, simplest fix, was to implement what I suggested. If you keep Jimmy's actions as they are, if he rushes with a punch with this right first, and if the MC sidesteps to the left to avoid it, then the simplest and most effective action (one that maintains the MC's momentum and the flow of the action) would be to continue his rotation from the sidestep and bring his left arm to bear for the attack. It would look far less awkward, make way more sense, and thus take less people out of the experience in that moment.

Do I care if the MC would have the actual strength in the real world to be capable of knock Jimmy out with a single left hook? Nope. All that is required is that things look 'good enough' to sell the narrative. The dodge to the left followed by a righthanded uppercut that needs to go around Jimmy's arm looks awkward and bad. The mechanics of it are laughable if you stop and think about it for just a second. It currently isn't 'good enough' to sell the fight.

Two characters throw punches, one falls down and the other claims victory. It currently is C+ work. It does the minimum to cover the bases, but doesn't rise above that. It isn't a good fight, let alone a great one.



But what a lot of this boils down to is, you just have a far less discerning and uncritical pallet than I do. That's fine. You're not wrong for enjoying a mediocre game. But your personal enjoyment doesn't make the game less mediocre, nor is my critique of it a personal attack on you or the developer. Indeed Seacth handled the critique far better than all of the white-knights that have popped out of the woodwork to seemingly defend the game's honor. I would suggest taking notes from Seacth on how to handle honest critique, because they are nailing it.
 
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