Ren'Py Desert Stalker [v0.19.4] [Zetan]

[Cynicaladm]

Fck, I wrote so much then my browser crashed.

In short, better to embrace the handwaving, if it is possible to openly raise your own children, even for the 1%, as the temple not strictly collecting all the children at birth could cause the system to collapse in many ways.

So while the MC taking back his children at the apprentice age, or having a compromise with the temple where he can be involved in raising them in the temple is okay, openly keeping them & raising them from birth would probably not be allowed by the temple, either for the 1% or 99%. Otherwise it can very easily lead to collapse of the 'daughters' social structure.

Wish I could rewrite everything, but my hands are paining(that's how much it was)

I enjoyed this interaction though. Tag me if you ever want to discuss social structure or world building

A little bit of backstory is in order, to explain how we got here in the first place.
Z made the Vessel character as a cameo/one off appearance within the scene dedicated to Kateryna. The purpose was to plant the seed for potential pregnancy or at least an interest in Kateryna towards that, whether as a fetish or a desire for maternity remains to be seen.
Trying to explain the interaction and give it a deeper context, I came up with the whole Temple, Priestess, Vessel institution, that until that moment had not existed in the lore of Zeta, pretty much on the spot. We came to determine how such an institution could play an important role and potentially explain away a few demographic issues that developing Zeta in a region with limited natural resources and enemies on every side would pose. (Rather than fixing the issues, what it does is give an extra element to the few players who nerd out on these things, to balance the scales in their own head canon).
The intention was never to rewrite the entirety of the social model of the city even though it ended up doing that at least partially.
Even so, this scene and the subsequent content came several releases into the game, when the concept of more or less traditionally structured families was already established, especially so in the case of the MC 's domestic situation, which itself represents about half of the content of the game.
Had we thought of the Temple before starting the game, we might have tackled the whole thing differently. But I'm fairly happy even with this solution.
Rewriting the entirety of what was done by then, just want feasible and would have altered the vibe of the conversations at home significantly, a vibe we put some effort into creating, with an eye on credible interactions infused with sexy bdsm overtones.

So we are sticking to the handwaving and to leaving things open enough for every player to make up their own mind about how the finer details of Zetan society are defined and how they impact the gaming experience... And whether Ain and Shani spent their childhood at the temple or at home in your playthrough is entirely up to your imagination. As is, what lore is established supports both possibilities and I doubt we will ever delve into that part of their lives.

 

[Remembrance]

It's fantasy and some people love incest in these games period.
If the Apocalypse happens like in DS world humanity would be doomed. Not big enough gene pool to sustain population growth. Maybe some players aren't aware of this, but real life incest is the end of the line for reproduction. So enjoy your retarded children

I don't even care about incest lol. I'm more interested in the social structure. But yeah, genetic damage is one of the variables in how incest would affect the social structure.

 

[Remembrance]

A little bit of backstory is in order, to explain how we got here in the first place.
Z made the Vessel character as a cameo/one off appearance within the scene dedicated to Kateryna. The purpose was to plant the seed for potential pregnancy or at least an interest in Kateryna towards that, whether as a fetish or a desire for maternity remains to be seen.
Trying to explain the interaction and give it a deeper context, I came up with the whole Temple, Priestess, Vessel institution, that until that moment had not existed in the lore of Zeta, pretty much on the spot. We came to determine how such an institution could play an important role and potentially explain away a few demographic issues that developing Zeta in a region with limited natural resources and enemies on every side would pose. (Rather than fixing the issues, what it does is give an extra element to the few players who nerd out on these things, to balance the scales in their own head canon).
The intention was never to rewrite the entirety of the social model of the city even though it ended up doing that at least partially.
Even so, this scene and the subsequent content came several releases into the game, when the concept of more or less traditionally structured families was already established, especially so in the case of the MC 's domestic situation, which itself represents about half of the content of the game.
Had we thought of the Temple before starting the game, we might have tackled the whole thing differently. But I'm fairly happy even with this solution.
Rewriting the entirety of what was done by then, just want feasible and would have altered the vibe of the conversations at home significantly, a vibe we put some effort into creating, with an eye on credible interactions infused with sexy bdsm overtones.

So we are sticking to the handwaving and to leaving things open enough for every player to make up their own mind about how the finer details of Zetan society are defined and how they impact the gaming experience... And whether Ain and Shani spent their childhood at the temple or at home in your playthrough is entirely up to your imagination. As is, what lore is established supports both possibilities and I doubt we will ever delve into that part of their lives.

Yeah, no problem. I just like stimulating the social situations. The 1st post was just my theory crafting on the social structure in the game & possibilities off of that.
I never mean to suggest any change or rewriting was necessary. Sorry if it felt that way.
Like you say, there's enough room to fill out the backstory & social situations while you guys have a flexible social structure to support it. That's nicely done.

1 suggestion tho, had already written it before the browser crash: Be careful after the pregancy(if implemented). As, if the player gets an easy choice about the child, the lore would skew in one direction. And establishing that MC can openly keep & raise children would just play in my mind as not possible, temple cannot allow that if they want to preserve the current society. (Maybe I'll rewrite & post the problems if I get time later.)

So my suggestion is to introduce a little conflict: The temple wants the child (without going into details about the social rules, just say that they want "MC's offspring should be properly raised by them")
Then MC can:
Agree (give away child choice);
Compromise - Church takes child but MC & family have visitation rights & can sometimes bring the child home (should give most flexibility in terms of using the child in the plot. Available when you want, with the temple when you want)

I'd want to stop there, but thanks to handwaving, 3rd choice:
MC remains stubborn & finally the temple retreats after warning, "don't take this as weaknes & tell everyone about this" implying not to be public about the child, keeping it vague & blurred whether MC has to keep the child a secret from the public (you can probably show important characters as not public eye to get around that)
This way maybe you can even tie temple plot into it.

It's just not possible for incest to be accepted in a society where people raise their children from birth. Raising from birth would form attachment in most people & they'd find incest sick & in the end only one social norm could remain.

Rather than genetics, it'd be a emotional & social issue, where like 90% would form attachments to their young child & that'd effect their perception of children, even when they grow up & they'd find anyone who sexualized that sick.

So yeah, keep handwaving while blurring the rules as flexible as possible if it ever comes to raising a child in the game

Had we thought of the Temple before starting the game, we might have tackled the whole thing differently.

Now that's an interesting what-if. Do chat about it if you have any free time. It'd be fun to talk of the society & world setting without having the constraints of the game.

I played this quite sometime ago. Only posted now due to free time. Will probably only play after quite a few updates. So, I don't really care that much about the game itself, but the alternate family definitions just seem so nicely done...

PS: Don't get me wrong, the game is pretty nice. Visually & conceptually. Without a well made game, I wouldn't have played enough to see the society. And the blurred rules & social settings were very well done to give player freedom.
My posts have mostly been about discussing the possible social structure of the city, not related to the game itself. The game is pretty nice & no rewriting is necessary & keep up with the flexible backstory. It's very nicely done. <- this was about the game.

 

[JohnF95zone]

Yeah, no problem. I just like stimulating the social situations. The 1st post was just my theory crafting on the social structure in the game & possibilities off of that.
I never mean to suggest any change or rewriting was necessary. Sorry if it felt that way.
Like you say, there's enough room to fill out the backstory & social situations while you guys have a flexible social structure to support it. That's nicely done.

1 suggestion tho, had already written it before the browser crash: Be careful after the pregancy(if implemented). As, if the player gets an easy choice about the child, the lore would skew in one direction. And establishing that MC can openly keep & raise children would just play in my mind as not possible, temple cannot allow that if they want to preserve the current society. (Maybe I'll rewrite & post the problems if I get time later.)

So my suggestion is to introduce a little conflict: The temple wants the child (without going into details about the social rules, just say that they want "MC's offspring should be properly raised by them")
Then MC can:
Agree (give away child choice);
Compromise - Church takes child but MC & family have visitation rights & can sometimes bring the child home (should give most flexibility in terms of using the child in the plot. Available when you want, with the temple when you want)

I'd want to stop there, but thanks to handwaving, 3rd choice:
MC remains stubborn & finally the temple retreats after warning, "don't take this as weaknes & tell everyone about this" implying not to be public about the child, keeping it vague & blurred whether MC has to keep the child a secret from the public (you can probably show important characters as not public eye to get around that)
This way maybe you can even tie temple plot into it.

It's just not possible for incest to be accepted in a society where people raise their children from birth. Raising from birth would form attachment in most people & they'd find incest sick & in the end only one social norm could remain.

Rather than genetics, it'd be a emotional & social issue, where like 90% would form attachments to their young child & that'd effect their perception of children, even when they grow up & they'd find anyone who sexualized that sick.

So yeah, keep handwaving while blurring the rules as flexible as possible if it ever comes to raising a child in the game


Now that's an interesting what-if. Do chat about it if you have any free time. It'd be fun to talk of the society & world setting without having the constraints of the game.

I played this quite sometime ago. Only posted now due to free time. Will probably only play after quite a few updates. So, I don't really care that much about the game itself, but the alternate family definitions just seem so nicely done...

PS: Don't get me wrong, the game is pretty nice. Visually & conceptually. Without a well made game, I wouldn't have played enough to see the society. And the blurred rules & social settings were very well done to give player freedom.
My posts have mostly been about discussing the possible social structure of the city, not related to the game itself. The game is pretty nice & no rewriting is necessary & keep up with the flexible backstory. It's very nicely done. <- this was about the game.

Dude, you could potentially write your own fantasy world building with the complex/expanded social structure narrative/story, then partner up with capable programmer(s) and graphic/3D artist(s) and make that into a game (preferrable VN or other type is good too). That is much better I believe since others not only can experience and see but ultimately enjoy the game, you and your team potentially can get financial support from fans.

Definitely much better than reading boring ass 1000+ words on an online forum, in which I almost put you on ignore list

 

[Yngling]

So while the MC taking back his children at the apprentice age, or having a compromise with the temple where he can be involved in raising them in the temple is okay, openly keeping them & raising them from birth would probably not be allowed by the temple, either for the 1% or 99%. Otherwise it can very easily lead to collapse of the 'daughters' social structure.

How so? There were quite a few societies which practiced sacred prostitution, where men would sleep with temple prostitutes (e.g. to worship Astarte or another fertility godess). However these societies still also had nuclear families.

There were also societies in which incest was either not forbidden or actually encouraged (admittedly, most known examples involve royals or high nobility).

Then there have, over the course of human history, existed a great number of civilizations of which we have absolutely no idea about their sexual norms and morals, even if we today actually know that civilization even existed!

If the Apocalypse happens like in DS world humanity would be doomed. Not big enough gene pool to sustain population growth. Maybe some players aren't aware of this, but real life incest is the end of the line for reproduction. So enjoy your retarded children

You are partially correct in that continued inbreeding with close family members is very bad genetically speaking.

However I think you overestimate the amount of people needed to keep a gene pool more or less functioning.

Again, in the course of history, there have existed many villages (or even entire countries, like Iceland or Greenland) of maybe a couple hundred indviduals living at the same time. Some of these villages were so isolated that they also mostly married inside the village. And I would even say that, within such villages, there existed certain social classes and people would even try to marry within their social class (e.g. farmers marrying farmers and labourers marrying labourers) thus even further limiting the gene pool. Of course, sometimes a stranger would wander in and provide some much needed fresh blood, but still. Such villages also survived and thrived for centuries.

Ideal? Probably not, but still viable.

 

[muschi26]

whether as a fetish or a desire for maternity remains to be seen.

Please God let it be a fetish, please God let it be a fetish, please God let it be a fetish…

And not just with Kateryna but with every other girl too.

 

[imadumb]

I saw this game by one of these fan gifs people use in this forum... and, i need to say it :3 THIS IS FUCKING AWSOME, better pos apocalipte story so far :3 ////// why i always like the crazy ones? wtf :v

 

[Carefree247]

Cynicaladm

Spoiler: The Big woman

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I gotta ask about her man, will we see more of the hive plot since they are an anomaly to the mutant plot and possibly a future threat/power to be wary of ? I can see them needing seasonal culling as well as a source for sending prisoners or possible gladiatorial beast

I liked her soo much both for her dangerous beauty and the mystery she posed(mostly the beauty atm her scene was cheap imo I need more !),on that note why do some scenes she doesn't look as plum but some scenes she does , same for the daughter

 

[imadumb]

"Crawl out through the fallout, baby
When they drop that bomb
Crawl out through the fallout
With the greatest of aplomb
When your white count's getting higher
Hurry, don't delay
I'll hold you close and kiss those
Radiation burns away "

 

[Ragnar]

How so? There were quite a few societies which practiced sacred prostitution, where men would sleep with temple prostitutes (e.g. to worship Astarte or another fertility godess). However these societies still also had nuclear families.

There were also societies in which incest was either not forbidden or actually encouraged (admittedly, most known examples involve royals or high nobility).

Then there have, over the course of human history, existed a great number of civilizations of which we have absolutely no idea about their sexual norms and morals, even if we today actually know that civilization even existed!



You are partially correct in that continued inbreeding with close family members is very bad genetically speaking.

However I think you overestimate the amount of people needed to keep a gene pool more or less functioning.

Again, in the course of history, there have existed many villages (or even entire countries, like Iceland or Greenland) of maybe a couple hundred indviduals living at the same time. Some of these villages were so isolated that they also mostly married inside the village. And I would even say that, within such villages, there existed certain social classes and people would even try to marry within their social class (e.g. farmers marrying farmers and labourers marrying labourers) thus even further limiting the gene pool. Of course, sometimes a stranger would wander in and provide some much needed fresh blood, but still. Such villages also survived and thrived for centuries.

Ideal? Probably not, but still viable.

It's hard to say because nobody is gonna make a study about how many people you need to sustain growth without fatal mutations-infertility. What we know is that european noble houses ended being full of genetic disorders due to inbreeding in a small gene pool during the Middle Ages. Today there are studies about what incest is doing to muslims at a bigger scale.

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But like I said before, this is a game and fantasy happens.

 

[imadumb]

Best Wife in the entire novel world

 

[Yngling]

It's hard to say because nobody is gonna make a study about how many people you need to sustain growth without fatal mutations-infertility.

I'm not a geneticist, but I do know that people who are into breeding animals do keep a close eye on desirable characteristics, which can safely be enhanced by selectively breeding with relatives. They also have a good understanding about the limitations of such an approach.

I assume that geneticists actually do have a pretty good understanding of what kind of gene pool one needs to sustain a population. Especially when a single bull can artificially inseminate hundreds or thousands of cows, you need to know what you are doing.

Edit: apparently, that is the biologically most effective method. So perhaps games like WVM do get it right...

What we know is that european noble houses ended being full of genetic disorders due to inbreeding in a small gene pool during the Middle Ages.

Yes, but if you look at family trees of noble houses, you'll see that that is actually a VERY small gene pool.
And, perhaps more problematic, marriages were more based on political motivations than genetic characteristics.
Or even pure lust (which arguably has a biological component) like in these games.

Today there are studies about what incest is doing to muslims at a bigger scale.

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You must be registered to see the links

That is very interesting, thanks for posting! But it's also contradictory. Like this statement:

"I can name you at least 40 couples off the top of my head who are all in first-cousin marriages," says Raja, who is a community liaison officer for Birmingham city council. "It is such an important part of our culture. It has been practised since at least the 14th century.

If it was really that bad, then there would be no way that they could have survived from the 14th century to today.

So, it seems that it does introduce some health risks, but it's manageable and does not damage the population as a whole.

Also worth to consider: in previous centuries (and even large parts of the world today) high child mortality was anyway a given and children with serious defects didn't survive.

 

[The Senior Perv]

Best Wife in the entire novel world View attachment 2108430

Can't wait for the moment Zaton finally dominates the queen.

 

[T_Abraxas]

Best game

 

[Machete]

Again, in the course of history, there have existed many villages (or even entire countries, like Iceland or Greenland) of maybe a couple hundred indviduals living at the same time. Some of these villages were so isolated that they also mostly married inside the village. And I would even say that, within such villages, there existed certain social classes and people would even try to marry within their social class (e.g. farmers marrying farmers and labourers marrying labourers) thus even further limiting the gene pool. Of course, sometimes a stranger would wander in and provide some much needed fresh blood, but still. Such villages also survived and thrived for centuries.

Ideal? Probably not, but still viable.

I believe there is a limit number in population where genetic stagnation doesn't become critical. Yet marring your sister or daughter will sooner then later drive your bloodline to disaster. We have, fori instance, as storical proof, the royal line of Akhenaton and of his son Tutankhamon who were a mess of genetic inherited deformities and chronical conditions.

I believe there have been tribal societies were inbreed was considered ok and casually praticated, but sure those societies didn't became wide sistemic traditions due to the aformentioned genetic limitations.

Going back to the game, the Zetan community seems more just very liberal that openly based on inbreed. So that a father might even sleep with his daughters or similar situation, but eventually those daughter will marry someone else and mostly have children with someone not blood related or at least, not so close.

Marring (mostly) distant cousins in arranged marriages seems to be a thing even today in some part of the world with no big conseguences (genetically speaking).

 

[imadumb]

Okay, i'm crying like a little girl here...

 

[selberdreher]

It's hard to say because nobody is gonna make a study about how many people you need to sustain growth without fatal mutations-infertility. What we know is that european noble houses ended being full of genetic disorders due to inbreeding in a small gene pool during the Middle Ages. Today there are studies about what incest is doing to muslims at a bigger scale.

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But like I said before, this is a game and fantasy happens.

The Theory of a

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, which seems to be supported by genetic evidence, suggests that mankind recovered to its current quantity from around just 3000 to 10000 surviving individual humans over the course of roughly 70000 years naturally. Other examples include the conservation and recovery projects of critically endangered animals, e.g. the

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which was started despite there were only 22 of them left.
The issue of inbreeding is of course very prevalent if someone has to work with such a small population, and we can expect there are rigid criterias which individuals are allowed to breed and with whom.

I would expect that family inbreeding can be successful if there is a system implemented which -spartan-like- radically culls any infant with unfavourable expressions of their genetic code. *edit: or the harsh reality of natural selection is allowed to take its toll, which is probably the cause why humanity needed 70k years.* Of course the european aristocraty didn't do that with their precious throne aspirants and their standby-brothers, while the sisters were needed for trades of political influence and power.

To conclude: i can totally see how a quasi-religious breeding control was established by creating a temple and a priesthood to supervise those rules. If someone needs to achieve a multi-generational goal, forming a religion is a rather good choice. Interestingly, there is a serious proposal to form an

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to carry the knowledge about the dangers of nuclear waste sites through the coming 10000s of years.
And as always with humankind, the societal top can get away with a certain degree of deviation from the norm, if they don't act too brazen about it.

 

[JohnF95zone]

View attachment 2109204
Okay, i'm crying like a little girl here...

Dem, when someone crying over a scene that involved (albeit indirectly) two side (throwaway) NPCs, if it is not a sign of good story/narrative, then I don't know what is. However, they are some people (on this site) that are quite adamant it is not because one way or another this game does not meet certain of their very specific, narrowed-down preferrences. One should be able to differentiate between a game with good narrative/story with a game (with a story/narrative) that meets their preferences. Cheers.

 

[mrttao]

The Theory of a

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, which seems to be supported by genetic evidence, suggests that mankind recovered to its current quantity from around just 3000 to 10000 surviving individual humans over the course of roughly 70000 years naturally. Other examples include the conservation and recovery projects of critically endangered animals, e.g. the

You must be registered to see the links

which was started despite there were only 22 of them left.
The issue of inbreeding is of course very prevalent if someone has to work with such a small population, and we can expect there are rigid criterias which individuals are allowed to breed and with whom.

I would expect that family inbreeding can be successful if there is a system implemented which -spartan-like- radically culls any infant with unfavourable expressions of their genetic code. *edit: or the harsh reality of natural selection is allowed to take its toll, which is probably the cause why humanity needed 70k years.* Of course the european aristocraty didn't do that with their precious throne aspirants and their standby-brothers, while the sisters were needed for trades of political influence and power.

To conclude: i can totally see how a quasi-religious breeding control was established by creating a temple and a priesthood to supervise those rules. If someone needs to achieve a multi-generational goal, forming a religion is a rather good choice. Interestingly, there is a serious proposal to form an

You must be registered to see the links

to carry the knowledge about the dangers of nuclear waste sites through the coming 10000s of years.
And as always with humankind, the societal top can get away with a certain degree of deviation from the norm, if they don't act too brazen about it.

Fun fact. Lab rats/mice are sometimes intentionally inbred to the extreme to make the genetically homogeneous.

so yea, it is possible. but as stated you need very strict spartan like destruction of defectives. and even then it is quite risky as important useful genes can just end up getting lost via sheer bad luck and chance.

 

[Ragnar]

The Theory of a

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, which seems to be supported by genetic evidence, suggests that mankind recovered to its current quantity from around just 3000 to 10000 surviving individual humans over the course of roughly 70000 years naturally. Other examples include the conservation and recovery projects of critically endangered animals, e.g. the

You must be registered to see the links

which was started despite there were only 22 of them left.
The issue of inbreeding is of course very prevalent if someone has to work with such a small population, and we can expect there are rigid criterias which individuals are allowed to breed and with whom.

I would expect that family inbreeding can be successful if there is a system implemented which -spartan-like- radically culls any infant with unfavourable expressions of their genetic code. *edit: or the harsh reality of natural selection is allowed to take its toll, which is probably the cause why humanity needed 70k years.* Of course the european aristocraty didn't do that with their precious throne aspirants and their standby-brothers, while the sisters were needed for trades of political influence and power.

To conclude: i can totally see how a quasi-religious breeding control was established by creating a temple and a priesthood to supervise those rules. If someone needs to achieve a multi-generational goal, forming a religion is a rather good choice. Interestingly, there is a serious proposal to form an

You must be registered to see the links

to carry the knowledge about the dangers of nuclear waste sites through the coming 10000s of years.
And as always with humankind, the societal top can get away with a certain degree of deviation from the norm, if they don't act too brazen about it.

Africans interbreed with other Homos and later some leave the continent and interbreed with more. We're all Homo Sapiens Sapiens now but in the past there were many subspecies like Homo Erectus or the Neanderthal. Today some people have traces of those subspecies in their DNA (i.e Africans have Homo Erectus traces, europeans and asians have Neanderthal, native australians have Denisovan).
Condors and mices can't be compared to humans for many reasons but the main thing is that Zetans don't have a lab in their breeding pits as far as we know.
Anyways, inbreeding is a bad idea irl because reduces population health and increases extintion rates.