Do you prefer to play Harem games with or without male competition?

[Duke Greene]

If he's an okay dude, stealing her from a happy relationship makes me the piece of shit in the scenario - Better to keep it from going anywhere in the first place (and presume he'll find someone else later).

Why? If he's a swell dude, and moreso if he's a friend, why wouldn't you want him to have a fullfilling relationship? Why do you need all the girls in existence? Is it really impossible to care about a male character?

I genuinely don't get this mindset. This is like the reverse of toxic BL fangirls, who scream bloody murder everytime a female character comes too close to a hot guy.

 

[Diconica]

At first I liked the game Motherless because most of the women in that VN are hot, but as time went on I slowly started to realize the everything was essentialy being handed down to Sunny. All the Money, Power, and Women in the world but barely any male competition. The street thug that wanted to hurt Sunny was killed by his cousin, the priest who made his life a living hell in the orphanage was dealt with by Sunny's dad, and his own dad is fine with Sunny marrying his wife who he hasn't divorced yet (HE EVEN ENCOURAGES IT!) The story ended up becoming boring to me because Sunny doesn't have any struggles and barely any conflicts. On top of that, some these women start to gush the moment they see Sunny because he reminds them of their dead father or dead lover or whateverthefuck .

Now, A Family Venture is one game I'm still interested in because it hasn't numerous male characters that are out to steal your women. I love Ryan's ways of keeping his women through manipulation and his silver tongue, while trying to keep men away from them. Ryan's struggle against people who are more powerful than him is a more interesting story.

I haven't played motherless. But I understand what you are saying.

The problem with the story is how the author took care of the issues. It wasn't your work that won the day.
Someone else did the work for him.

If the author wrote your father as a pile of shit abusing the family and you drove him off by either finding information to get him to leave or put him in jail or if you had to kick his ass... Then it wouldn't have felt just handed to you and the change in family feelings toward the MC as the protector would make more sense.

If Sunny dealt with the street thug on his own in some manor. Again you wouldn't have felt that it was something you more earned. The same can be said about the priest.

The story is supposed to be about the MC and what he achieves not a laundry list of what other people do for him. That's why it feels wrong. It bloody hell is wrong.

If it had been written properly with some thought behind it then it would have felt like you did have competition trying to keep you from your goals. You wouldn't need any special characters written into play the part of someone interested in the girl. You would have been winning the women from those guys to start with. You might have some major villains who you face in protecting your women and minor ones.

 

[Narfbat]

Why? If he's a swell dude, and moreso if he's a friend, why wouldn't you want him to have a fullfilling relationship? Why do you need all the girls in existence? Is it really impossible to care about a male character?

I may have not explained this well. In the context of said girl being an option, it's one that I am not inclined to pursue if she's already where she wants to be. (She might as well not be an option in that case.) If the two are only vaguely acquainted (or haven't met at all) the other guy is not losing anything.

And "needing" all the girls is what defines the genre, yes.

 

[Diconica]

Why? If he's a swell dude, and moreso if he's a friend, why wouldn't you want him to have a fullfilling relationship? Why do you need all the girls in existence? Is it really impossible to care about a male character?

I genuinely don't get this mindset. This is like the reverse of toxic BL fangirls, who scream bloody murder everytime a female character comes too close to a hot guy.

You just demonstrated why I am selective about who my male friends are.
If he is my friend he isn't going to be trying to snake one of my women! He should be able to find his own!
The fact you didn't consider that aspect to start with is the problem.
With friends like that who the fuck needs enemies!

You have a fucked up definition of friendship.
So to you it is alright to scope a woman who is with a friend of yours.

I can want my friend to have a fulfilling relationship as you said but he can do his own leg work and find a different woman and not go after mine.

 

[Diconica]

I may have not explained this well. In the context of said girl being an option, it's one that I am not inclined to pursue if she's already where she wants to be. (She might as well not be an option in that case.) If the two are only vaguely acquainted (or haven't met at all) the other guy is not losing anything.

And "needing" all the girls is what defines the genre, yes.

I agree.

 

[Duke Greene]

You just demonstrated why I am selective about who my male friends are.
If he is my friend he isn't going to be trying to snake one of my women! He should be able to find his own!
The fact you didn't consider that aspect to start with is the problem.
With friends like that who the fuck needs enemies!

I mean, if you already have like 5 women then yeah I think he's kinda a bit right in wanting the one he likes not to be part of your glorified Pokemon collection. Anyway my point was more about letting a male friend develop a relationship with a female character, not about him taking one already in a relationship.

You have a fucked up definition of friendship.
So to you it is alright to scope a woman who is with a friend of yours.

...I have no idea how you took this from my post. Maybe work on that reading comprehension?

 

[Diconica]

I mean, if you already have like 5 women then yeah I think he's kinda a bit right in wanting the one he likes not to be part of your glorified Pokemon collection. Anyway my point was more about letting a male friend develop a relationship with a female character, not about him taking one already in a relationship.

...I have no idea how you took this from my post. Maybe work on that reading comprehension?

As Narfbat said he wouldn't want to pursue a woman who is already in a meaningful relationship.
"If he's an okay dude, stealing her from a happy relationship makes me the piece of shit in the scenario - Better to keep it from going anywhere in the first place (and presume he'll find someone else later)."

Which he again clarified on the next post again for you with. " I may have not explained this well. In the context of said girl being an option, it's one that I am not inclined to pursue if she's already where she wants to be. (She might as well not be an option in that case.) "

You however chose to say, " Why? If he's a swell dude, and moreso if he's a friend, why wouldn't you want him to have a fullfilling relationship? Why do you need all the girls in existence? Is it really impossible to care about a male character?"

That says pretty clearly you are targeting one of the women who is already in the harem. Not just an outside potential interest.

If you are going around friends and scoping their women as potential love interest or sexual conquests that makes you a shit bag and not a friend regardless how many they have!

None of us have an issue with letting a male friend develop an interest with another woman, who isn't in the harem. He said that twice. I said it also, " I can want my friend to have a fulfilling relationship as you said but he can do his own leg work and find a different woman and not go after mine."

It seems you read what you want to read and just rather than what is actually written.
If you had read what he said the first time correctly. You probably would have responded differently or not at all.
Then my response may not have happened or been a good bit different.

To clarify if the girl is in the Harem she is in a relationship with the MC or the master of the harem.

 

[Duke Greene]

You however chose to say, " Why? If he's a swell dude, and moreso if he's a friend, why wouldn't you want him to have a fullfilling relationship? Why do you need all the girls in existence? Is it really impossible to care about a male character?"

That says pretty clearly you are targeting one of the women who is already in the harem. Not just an outside potential interest.

No, I was quoting this specifically:

Better to keep it from going anywhere in the first place (and presume he'll find someone else later).

Doesn't want to be a piece of shit by taking the girl from the ok dude, so he prevent them to get together in the first place. My question was "why do this?"

If you want to argue with me do it in good faith instead of building strawmen.

 

[Diconica]

No, I was quoting this specifically:

Doesn't want to be a piece of shit by taking the girl from the ok dude, so he prevent them to get together in the first place. My question was "why do this?"

If you want to argue with me do it in good faith instead of building strawmen.

Context matters.
What he wrote is this. " Competition is fine as long as I have the opportunity to intervene before it becomes serious. If he's a piece of shit I should be able to save her from making a huge mistake. If he's an okay dude, stealing her from a happy relationship makes me the piece of shit in the scenario - Better to keep it from going anywhere in the first place (and presume he'll find someone else later)."

I'll break it down for you.
He is fine with having male competition so long as, "Competition is fine as long as I have the opportunity to intervene before it becomes serious."

reasons:
"If he's a piece of shit I should be able to save her from making a huge mistake." ~ I think that is simple enough to understand on its own.
or
"If he's an okay dude, stealing her from a happy relationship makes me the piece of shit in the scenario - Better to keep it from going anywhere in the first place (and presume he'll find someone else later).""

He could have meant she was not in the harem yet though. But he said, "Better to keep it from going anywhere in the first place (and presume he'll find someone else later).""
By that I took it as to mean he didn't want them starting a relationship he would then have to break up. He doesn't want to play the bad guy and take the woman from a healthy relationship. He doesn't have an issue the guy having a good relationship just not with someone from the harem. There are other women in the world.

My assumption is both the case he presented the women are in the harem to start with.
Most guys playing harem games don't want to be a villain. We don't want to take the girl away from a healthy relationship.
What most of us are ok with is taking the woman away from a bad situation. White Knight crap.
Her husband is missing, abuse, cheating on her, she's a slave, a prisoner, over worked under paid ...

That why I went down the road I did with you.

I took it as you carried on the conversation from the point that the girl was in the harem and the so called good guy(friend) was snaking her from the harem.

 

[Loganfin]

At first I liked the game Motherless because most of the women in that VN are hot, but as time went on I slowly started to realize the everything was essentialy being handed down to Sunny. All the Money, Power, and Women in the world but barely any male competition. The street thug that wanted to hurt Sunny was killed by his cousin, the priest who made his life a living hell in the orphanage was dealt with by Sunny's dad, and his own dad is fine with Sunny marrying his wife who he hasn't divorced yet (HE EVEN ENCOURAGES IT!) The story ended up becoming boring to me because Sunny doesn't have any struggles and barely any conflicts. On top of that, some these women start to gush the moment they see Sunny because he reminds them of their dead father or dead lover or whateverthefuck .

Now, A Family Venture is one game I'm still interested in because it hasn't numerous male characters that are out to steal your women. I love Ryan's ways of keeping his women through manipulation and his silver tongue, while trying to keep men away from them. Ryan's struggle against people who are more powerful than him is a more interesting story.

I agree with you about that game in particular, and games like that in general. For me, that's the downside of having a large cast of characters in a pure VN. No matter how good of a writer someone might be, its just not reasonable to make it feel like the MC has "earned" his time with each of the women individually. I think that its a lot more satisfying to have it as a sandbox, where the player can gradually interact with each of them, because of that.

 

[Grozar]

With

 

[Narfbat]

My assumption is both the case he presented the women are in the harem to start with.

I have no idea where you got this from. The entire issue is "being possessive of a woman that's not yours".

I simply think that if she's not the other guy's either, it's fine for me to take the shot. Nobody stealing anything from anyone.

 

[ClockworkGnome]

For me, I'd generally much rather interact with LIs on their own terms and not have to deal with competition of any kind. Doubly so in harem games.

I don't find competing to somehow be fulfilling, or the idea of "winning" a girl away from someone else to somehow be more satisfying. Generally, the tension and frustration inherent in potentially "losing" a LI to a rival is more off-putting than any positives I get from beating them. The reward for winning over a LI is the LI themselves - if they're interesting, likeable, sexy, or otherwise desirable, the endgame is to have them, not to take them away from someone else. I don't necessarily hate games where I'm trying to take a LI away from their current partner (assuming their current partner is a jerk - it's way worse if the current partner is relatively cool or just inoffensive and I steal their LI anyway), but I don't really get anything out of it in and of itself, and usually just prefer going after LIs who are currently unattached or otherwise available with no outside issues.

(As an aside, in Become a Rock Star, your likeable male bandmate eventually gets a girlfriend of his own who is never an option for you, and I'm fine with that. Your female lead singer will also hook up with your female bassist if you don't pursue her as your own LI option, and I'm fine with that. But there are also incest games where your terminally horny best friend is obsessing over your sisters or mother, and I'd be very not okay if they ever succeeded. And in the same vein I feel much less comfortable going after their mother/sister/etc in the same scenario.)

As for other guys in general, I'm usually okay with them being in a game (especially if they serve a narrative purpose), or even having LIs of their own, so long as they don't overlap with my LI pool (like the aforementioned male bandmate in Become a Rock Star). It's not the mere existence of other males that's the threat, it's when they're going after LIs or potential LIs (or even NPCs I wish were LIs but aren't) where the problems start.

About the only real exception to that is incest games where you're seducing your mother away from your dad (or you've had the ubiquitious "your dad just died" cliche to get rid of him). I don't need to be told that dad hasn't had sex with mom for years, or that I was actually a miraculous virgin birth of some kind so dad has literally never had sex with mom. I'm perfectly fine with the idea of mom still being with dad from time-to-time while I'm slowly winning her over, because that feels like a natural and expected pairing. It's only when your widowed mom starts trying to date again or your sister starts going out with her jerkass boyfriend that the presence of another dude becomes annoying.

I have no idea where you got this from. The entire issue is "being possessive of a woman that's not yours".

I simply think that if she's not the other guy's either, it's fine for me to take the shot. Nobody stealing anything from anyone.

It kind of depends on how you define "yours".

Does that mean two people in a committed relationship? Two people in a casual relationship? Two people who are interested in each other? Only one person being interested in the other?

For a lot of porn game players (especially ones actively looking for harem games), "yours" can be as broad as "every attractive woman I see and want to seduce", no matter what their role in the story is or whether or not they've even met you yet in the story as written. And since it isn't reality, that's not necessarily a wrong attitude to have. But with that mentality, no other male character can ever be allowed to "have" a female LI of their own.

On the other hand, some players may actually feel kind of bad about taking potential LIs away from other guys (or girls) if those rivals are relatively nice or inoffensive. Stealing a girl away from Asshole Boyfriend or Asshole Husband might be more satisfying for a lot of players, but it might be more of a problem for some players if it's just Inattentive Boyfriend or Boring Husband. And even worse if it's a case of a male character who is explicitly supposed to be your friend in-universe who is showing interest in a girl you eventually claim for yourself. There's at least a few games with a Best Friend character where you eventually wind up hooking up with their mom/sister/cousin/girlfriend/crush/etc., and it can feel awkward if you're not given a choice to say no.

In real life, if my best friend told me he had a huge crush on a girl, and I later hooked up with that girl, I'd probably feel like a total shit. So much so that I'd probably avoid that relationship entirely (even if she told me she was majorly interested in me and not at all in my friend, so I wasn't realistically "taking" anything away from him at all, other than in his own mind). But in a game, if my "best friend" (probably an underdeveloped character I have very little real connection to) winds up dating a girl who is gorgeous and has an awesome personality, I'm probably just going to be jealous and mad at the dev for either making an attractive NPC I can't hook up with, or for forcing me to make the choice between bros or hoes.

 

[aihikari]

The thing about having male competition is it makes the girls becoming trophies. We don't want that, do we?
Plus, if the girls really like you, will they even bother eyeing other guys? And if those guys aren't even in their sight to start with, are they really competitors?
And finally, I have seen more than often where male competition creating unnecessary drama to lengthen the game. It's a huge distaste.
So overall, don't include male competition.

 

[demonbra]

I thought I would come back with some constructive information rather than just my opinion.
You should check out

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.
It's used for keeping track of all the important details in writing a book building worlds. It's probably more used for RPG campaign development.
That said there are number of systems out there that provide similar uses.
In truth you don't need it but looking at it will give you a good clue as to what stuff you should be paying attention to in your story to improve them.

Every story is base around some sort of conflict. Man vs Man, Man vs Beast, Man vs Nature/God, Man vs themselves ...
There is always something to over come. Longer stories have various smaller events of this nature.
Harem games get stuck in a rut if your primary adversary is the new babes X or some dink that wants a piece.
There are vastly better things that can be focused on.
Maybe, you are a conqueror or trying to free your home land...
Your harem could be your adventure party. You go around doing quests and dungeons and so on seeking fortune.
Maybe, you are the villain or slave trader ...
Doesn't matter what it is any part of those stories is vastly more interesting than having to deal with Joe Schmo.
To counter that the guy would need to be some major character and do something on the order of kidnap her from you.
To which you would then mount a rescue mission.
The point is in most cases it would take a fairly large character role to even make it worth having in most harem games.

You also need to realize there is a huge plot hole of some outside no body becoming any form of challenge to the MC.
The MC is a guy by design who can manage multiple relationships with women and they not want to break it off with him.
Then you are going to throw some piss ant into the fight and think he has any real chance. If the MC is the character the game makes him out to start with then the women should effectively laugh at the new character. The only way around that would be if the MC was the only real available male in the area to start with until Tom DiddlyDee shows the hell up.
Even then the chances of the women going for the complete outsider they know nothing about wouldn't be as likely.
You could always throw magic in as the excuse. The outsider uses magic. But then you have to come up with a way for the MC to counter it or do away with the outsider. The point is that becomes a mess.

The best answer when it comes to harem games is to stick to a larger main story and avoid the pitfalls of trying to bring other men in.

I think you made a good point.
It's absolutely possible to create a good harem game, even somewhat realistic and that comes naturally if you make it right.
The problem with many harem games is that they focus on an every day routine, often in a modern world, were a harem is totally unrealistic and creates moronic situations. Others said it very well, Play Char basically becomes a sperm factory that fucks one chick after the other. Hope he has a membership at the pharmacy for the blue pills.

I'd say the best way to create a harem game, is to not focus on making a harem game, as you pretty much said yourself.


That being said, I, like others, strongly dislike this tendency of having zero men other than the player or having them as rapist / bullies / gay / wimps to be humiliated by the player.
If you add that with a complete Mary-Sue Player Character, probably 18yo, that can fight, becomes rich and gets a sport car... You are just insulting half mankind, and even the other half as well.
Is it that difficult to add other men to the story ? Even a neighbor living happy with his wife (who is not here to bang for the Player) ? Side characters who could also have their own L.I. , or maybe a bit of sharing if the player likes it (MMF can be very hot too, and doesn't have to play with jealousy) ?

 

[Diconica]

I think you made a good point.
It's absolutely possible to create a good harem game, even somewhat realistic and that comes naturally if you make it right.
The problem with many harem games is that they focus on an every day routine, often in a modern world, were a harem is totally unrealistic and creates moronic situations. Others said it very well, Play Char basically becomes a sperm factory that fucks one chick after the other. Hope he has a membership at the pharmacy for the blue pills.

I'd say the best way to create a harem game, is to not focus on making a harem game, as you pretty much said yourself.


That being said, I, like others, strongly dislike this tendency of having zero men other than the player or having them as rapist / bullies / gay / wimps to be humiliated by the player.
If you add that with a complete Mary-Sue Player Character, probably 18yo, that can fight, becomes rich and gets a sport car... You are just insulting half mankind, and even the other half as well.
Is it that difficult to add other men to the story ? Even a neighbor living happy with his wife (who is not here to bang for the Player) ? Side characters who could also have their own L.I. , or maybe a bit of sharing if the player likes it (MMF can be very hot too, and doesn't have to play with jealousy) ?

You have other men in Harem games all the time. People just don't recognize them in the same manor.
Most harem games have people you buy stuff from. Some times they are women some times they are men.

That said do you really think the mundane shit of me having bear and watching a ball game with my neighbor is going to add to this sort of story. At best it is filler. Most harem games are evolve around so sort of larger story plot. Some times not such as those that try to evolve around a teen getting everything. Pretty much all of those stories fail in the end. Hell most don't even make it through production. Just look at the list of harem games on this site that are listed. Separate it into 3 types, complete, abandon and the rest. It is pretty telling.

So in the end with the larger plot in mind. You have a few roles another male can fill. He could be a supporting character. He could be a rival either in the plot or in the Harem. If it is a rival in the Harem you may be introducing NTR. Is it even realistic to have a Rival in the harem as I pointed out before.

That said one could have a Harem like that of "Naze Turbine" from "Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans"
If you haven't watched the series it might be of interest in how he treats his wives.
It's more about he brings them in as crew members to provide them protection and if they find love some place else he's good with it. This however wouldn't fit the general traditional harem story line that most guys want to play.

Most strait males are not into sharing or MMF. So if you add it in then you need a hard switch to remove. If you start adding those types of switches in it can make a mess of the plot. They need almost their own plot line to allow them.
Consider the personality of a person who is willing to share or MMF is quite different from someone who is not willing to.
So turning off a scene or two isn't going to cut it.

We could make a harem game where you have a dozen women and a bunch of guy friends and you can choose how you want to spend your time. Yep, why spend it with the honey when you and your buds can play videogames, shoot pool, go to a strip club, go camping... To add in some realism watch the girls get tired of your shit and leave you. Personally I've got more than enough time around other men in RL. I play games to not be around them. Why other guys seem to have the need to spend more time around other men that's something I don't get.

 

[javier_himura]

I like games with male competition because that is more realistic but I the same time I do not believe NTR is the solution to make a game realistic. I do not care if another girl in a relationship, a normal LI who has a boyfriend, or the Mom in an Incest game, or even a single LI that ends with another man, has a relationship with her partner, yet that doesn't mean I should view them having sex. That is the opposite of realistic, couples are not broadcasting their sex life to everyone in real life.

At the same time, I prefer harem games that do not allow you to have more than one girl. It is like a harem game because you have many LIs available yet you should only be able to end with one and have sex with one because what is realistic is for a woman who is with you to leave you when she found out about other girls. So, if you want to see sex scenes with other girls you need another save file. But the problem with that approach is that makes more sense on already completed games, so you can play multiple times for multiple endings, that is why it was present years ago on many Japanese hentai games. But Western games that are uploaded patch by patch, taking years to become complete, must allow people to see content with all women at the same time, because players won't keep multiple savefiles in ongoing games nor wait until it is completed, breaking that realism. Maybe if the game is finally completed the dev adds endings for every girl, but it is too late to game the game realistic.

 

[Hildegardt]

I don't find competing to somehow be fulfilling, or the idea of "winning" a girl away from someone else to somehow be more satisfying. Generally, the tension and frustration inherent in potentially "losing" a LI to a rival is more off-putting than any positives I get from beating them. The reward for winning over a LI is the LI themselves - if they're interesting, likeable, sexy, or otherwise desirable, the endgame is to have them, not to take them away from someone else.

The thing about having male competition is it makes the girls becoming trophies. We don't want that, do we?
Plus, if the girls really like you, will they even bother eyeing other guys? And if those guys aren't even in their sight to start with, are they really competitors?
And finally, I have seen more than often where male competition creating unnecessary drama to lengthen the game. It's a huge distaste.
So overall, don't include male competition.

The competition doesn't necessarily have to be about "winning" the LIs or winning against other male characters. It can also center around the LIs agency. A LI that appears like she has a choice is a stronger character, because she has her own perspective, preferences and convictions.
Why even bother with a diverse cast of characters, if all of their lifes end up entirely about the PC anyway? Pretty much all harem games have this problem, where the LIs lose their personality as soon as they join the harem.
Being liked is a nice feeling, but this feeling is cheapened by the fact that in many harem games every single LI likes the PC for being a daddy right out the gate or for no reason at all. Bringing in competition gives the player other characters to compare his own character to and highlights the potential reasons for a LI liking the PC.

 

[Ying Ko]

...LIs agency...her own perspective, preferences and convictions.

You can demonstrate that without any sexual rivals, although there would be no "other male" type kinks involved then, which is usually what it boils down to.

 

[Konak.selalu]

Harem game i know usually dont have or have a few of male char. Let alone a male antagonist, usually they are just useless NPC. i dont know many title and have interest in this genre, but if there is a decent title, maybe i'll try it.

In my opinion a male rival should be exist to make it realistic & interesting and i dont like blank face. So yeah, i choose point 1 in the poll.