VN Ren'Py Eternum [v0.7.5 Public] [Caribdis]

[DripDreamer]

does Caribdis desinged the characters or someone else?

 

[Dorfnutter]

I think this might be a limitation of what the game calls hacking.... you wouldn't be able to change the spawn point without modifying values (in renpy games branches are sometimes as simple as a single variable being 1 or 0 so the code could be something like player.spawnatOgygia1 to make him spawn there instead of any other server) however that could change as we learn more about if Eternum is a game/parallel world access etc

However as it stands right now she could have hacked them in with more stuff she didnt because writing limitations

Then all the more reason for her to learn a skill or rely on a weapon like Dione which could help her out if hacking out of dire situations is out of the question.

I guess my stance on the matter is that I don't judge her for doing what she did just to get Dione back. You might call it trying to hold onto a crutch, but if it has been a constant companion of hers before Orion (MC) and the others came along in her life, then there's some sentimental value there regardless if she got it by chance or not. You can't just ask a person to part with something that has likely gotten them out of a bind more times than they could count. Unless it's going to lead them to a path of ruin and self-destruction (see: Bilbo's Ring in LOTR), in the end leaving that item behind is something that they have to decide for themselves.

 

[chainedpanda]

All this talk about morals and characterization... I just thought it felt like a cop-out. A way to brute force the relationship forward without natural relationship growth or character development. It was certainly rape-y but at it's core, it's not much different than when other games have brought in a slutty relative or ex-girlfriend or something who forces a budding relationship with a far more shy/reserved character. Many games have done this, there's little more to it than that.

I really didn't like this scene, nor do I like any piece of media which attempts to use this lame writing tool. I've always felt as if it was just a way to unnaturally increase the pace of the story, oftentimes to the detriment of one or more characters. It always removes me from the fantasy, and lowers my opinion of the characters involved. Not to mention that these scenes are oftentimes irreverent and inconsequential in the long run and offers nothing to the overall story aside from the increase in pacing or forcing a certain agenda.

Luckily, this scene has not completely ruined Nova's character for me like some other games have done. Hell, some games were so bad at it that it ruined the entire game for me. However, I would say that if I were to rank the LIs from my perspective, Nova was somewhere in the middle, but now she may be on the bottom of the list.

Spoiler: About the "concent" part

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Honestly, I don't hate rape content. But I didn't like this scene simply due to the consequences of the relationship with Nova. If the dev wanted to add another sex scene, I wouldn't have been against the dev forcing the protagonist to fuck Maat in front of Nova, but what I was against was Nova also being forced. At least in that case, the relationship can still develop and speed things up. However, instead the relationship has been forced.

While it may sound like the same thing, it's not. With Nova being involved in the sex acts, it forces her to accept them as they are without much room for development. But, if the protagonist only fucked Maat while Nova was forced to watch, this could have sparked curiosity from Nova, allowing for more development.

 

[chainedpanda]

you put my feelings almost exactly but in a much more readable and approachable format so thank you haha. Just out of curiosity what would your list be as of now?

1. Luna
2. Annie
3. Alex
4. Dalia
5. Penelope
6. Nancy
7. Nova

I can't say I've completely discounted Nova yet. While I hated the scene, I do like her personality and quirks. Plus, I do have more faith in the dev than I do most devs. I'll continue to watch how her story plays out for the time being before completely discounting her. That said, I'd wager she was around rank 3-5 for me prior to this scene (kinda hard to judge an actual place due to the scene tainting my memory).

 

[Kalsan]

You people complain a lot about that scene and i just don't see anything wrong with it. Nova is cute and give the mc a blowjob (it is "forced" but come on she likes the MC and we all know she was going to sooner or later), you teach Maat her place and discover that Nova doesn't mind the MC fucking other girls. Now people seem to hate Nove for no reason, I imagine all of you saying "Oh Nova is my most hated girls because she give MC a blowjob and is ok with a MC getting a Harem SHE IS THE WORST!!!" like seriously?

 

[bolenart]

I think the Maat scene was hot as hell. Sure, if it happened in real life it would've been fucked up, but given that it was inside a game with nothing real at stake it's more grey (dark grey perhaps). If it's still too much for you that's fine, but it seems to me that Caribdis games often toys with non-consent (Penny's photoshoot, Annie first meeting Axel) and I love it. Also it is mentioned when the realm of Eternum is first introduced that rape happens on its servers, so I don't think anyone should be surprised with content in this direction.

 

[MrLKX]

I have only roughly skimmed the whole topic, so my simple assumption is how the Nova story will play out.

Orion will help Nova realize that she's fine the way she is (when she's not burning down the kitchen, that was Nova, wasn't it?) and doesn't have to pretend somehow in his presence and in the presence of others (Penny, Alex, Annie and co.). I think a strange experience with Alex on the Pixar/Disney- or whatever server that was, was a good start.

 

[Idontplay]

I really think we should start to accept the characters in the games we play, for what they really are: lines of a code unworthy of any emotional bond.

 

[chainedpanda]

My issue with Nova is simply that I believe the characters STORY will be downgraded as a result of this scene, not that the CHARACTER itself is ruined because of this event. It is similar to what "Simpgor" is saying, however they do seem to have a more aggressive/negative stance compared to mine.

As mentioned in the novel I wrote on page 207, I dislike these sorts of writing tools. I feel as if they over simplify the story and void the characters story-arc of any real weight or meaning by effectively forcing certain characters or events to happen in order to speed up those same events that could and would have happened more naturally.

Simpgor's main stance (I believe, as I don't wish to put words in anyone's mouths) is that this event has made her too "ordinary". As while the rest of the LIs maintain interesting dynamics when the harem is concerned in relation to various taboos. They are of the opinion that due to this event in which Nova has seemingly discovered that she enjoyed watching the protagonist have sex with another woman. This has seemingly caused Nova to lose any sort of taboo in relation to the harem.

While I don't completely agree with them, since I don't think any taboo is particularly necessary. I don't really see a problem with that opinion either, as a taboo could make her more interesting. If all the others LIs have a sort of taboo, why would they even care about one which doesn't?

 

[JoeTheMC84]

Simpgor I just have one final question. I think I understand your stance better now. And I do apologize somewhat for addressing an issue you didn’t actually have with the scene and Nova. As that may have made it feel like I wasn’t really paying attention to what you were writing. Again, sorry for that. It seems that your issue with Nova is that she became boring when the only taboo she had (being okay with being in a harem) seems to have been removed. I disagree that one scene that has her questioning her feelings about that topic equals the taboo being removed. One step towards removing a taboo does not remove the taboo. Nova could have been turned on because it was a display of power from the MC, he was turning the tables on Maat, he was being aggressive and forceful to someone who had, moments ago, been overpowering them. That is very different from being okay with seeing someone you love make love to someone else which would be happening in a harem. Especially in the context of one happening in Eternum and the other would happen in real life. But I digress, so I’ll move on from that.

My question is this: Penny and Dalia have the taboos of being in a harem and incest to seemingly over come. If in the next update, while undercover at the heist, let’s say that Penny is “forced” to make out with the MC to maintain her cover and Dalia sees it. Dalia gets turned on by it and maybe even has a thought about how much more hot it is to watch a man she likes making out with her sister. She thinks, to her own shame in the moment, that the incest of watching her sexy sister do it makes it even better. Would the fact that Dalia has started down the road towards becoming okay with her taboos suddenly make her less interesting?

I ask this because eventually all the girls will need to overcome their taboos. So I am curious if you will lose interest in all of them once they do. I am genuinely interested in your thought process.

 

[JoeTheMC84]

Also, on the topic of Maat and her belief of consent, that's complete nonsense. You have one dude literally begging and possibly crying and yet she STILL wanted to force him. I would understand simply killing everyone, but instead she continued and persisted to make him watch. Plus, the protagonist was fighting back throughout and Nova was nearly on the verge of a mental breakdown when Maat threatened to take the gun. PLUS she held everyone at gun point. At no point does she show any ounce of empathy. From top to bottom, this was absolutely assault.

Maat does simply kill the other guy when she sees he doesn't want to play the game. From her perspective the MC and Nova were still playing the game they agreed to play by coming to her server. She doesn't know that Nova's gun is a weapon of Atlas, she thinks that the MC and Nova are just using the "random gun that Nova has" as an excuse to keep playing along.

Just like the "murder" in the Roman server, or the medieval fantasy server. You join a server to take part in the game in the way that server is set up.

If there was a sex party with dozens of people attending. One is a fat old man, the other a young attractive legal aged teenager, would it be acceptable for the old man to do whatever he wants to the teenager simply because she's at a sex party? Regardless of how she acts, regardless of what she says, she's at a sex party right? That must mean she wants to fuck anyone right? No. No it doesn't. It's the same as the "clues" Maat left. It doesn't instantly mean shit.

Your hypothetical example doesn't fit what we see because... (in no particular order)
1. This isn't the real world, or even set in the in-game real world, it is set in the in-game game of Eternum. A game everyone involved in has agreed to the risks of playing. Nova and Alex even bring up that the game can cause paralysis and blindness if you are disconnected improperly. It's one of the risks of play, just like cancer is a risk involved in smoking. You don't get to cry foul anymore if you get lung cancer from smoking for years. There was a time when servers (like cigarette companies) tried to hide what might happen there and use loophole to commit crimes (see point 4) but that seems to have been changed and now servers have to be upfront about what content they allow, and you are expected to participate in. From what we've heard there are even non-combat servers, I imagine committing virtual murder there gets you in trouble, while virtual killing someone in a combat server is just par for the course. The same with virtual sex.
2. Even in the real world, if you go to a free use rape-play party and there is a safe word given, or a way out (which in the context of the scene the MC and Nova have, they can just let Maat reset their level), or you see what is happening and stay then yes you are consenting to play along. You have said you enjoy being "forced" to do something "you don't want to" because you actually want to and are just pretending. The hypothetical falls short because that girl can just leave. If she can't leave, then it isn't a "sex party" that everyone came to voluntarily, it's lying, kidnapping, and raping. If she came voluntarily, saw that the guy was a fat old man, and she wasn't into it, she could have just left. And no, what she says matter, if there is a safe word and she says it and it doesn't end then yes, it is rape. If there was no safe word, then she was dumb for going, but yes then it would be rape in that context, but again, this hypothetical is so far removed from the scene as to be nonsensically.
3. The scene we are talking about happened in the context of a virtual world where death doesn't matter and is not permanent and no one shows up anywhere they don't want to be. If you go to a server where the hypothetical rule is, "You have to fuck the owner of the server when you arrive or get shot in the head." Yes, you consented to have sex or get killed. If I travel to England then I'm consenting to drive on that wrong side of the road. I'm consenting to not be allowed to carry my firearm in public. I'm consenting to all the laws of that land. If there were a free use country in this world then I wouldn't visit it, but if you did then yes you would be consenting to having sex acts done to you regardless of really wanting it at that moment. In the same way, if you join a server you are consenting to abide by the rules of that server, so if it is a free use server, well either don't go, or be ready to spread those legs and cheeks.
4. Nova and Alex even talked about people being excommunicated for trying to use server rules to take advantage of people (children specifically), perhaps with fine print, or by sharing access without disclosing the way the server operates. Luna even brings up cults being allowed broad range of privileges to do what they want, so it is likely that a sex cult could operate freely in Eternum so long as they were open about the rules of coming to their server. We see that in servers where rape is not allowed the Pretorians show up quickly. So, it stands to reason that since they didn't arrive when the MC and Nova were in trouble that either neither of their bodies (which the game reads all the vitals of, remember Luna talked about it being able to pull you out in case of fire or health issues) were not reacting with real distress, or Maat's server is set up to allow dubious consent in sex acts thus the Pretorians didn't come.
5. The other guy is the perfect argument against the example you gave. He didn't want to play Maat's game, so she reset his level. The MC could have closed his eyes and not watched; Nova could have refused to strip down. Would it have sucked to have their level reset, yes, but they could have come back the very next day with Luna, Dalia, Annie, Alex, and Calypso and gotten Nova's weapon back.

Nova and the MC would not have actually died if they had just said, "No Maat, we aren't playing your game, just kill us." They could have even told her the truth, "We found the Weapon of Atlas Calypso, it allows you to access servers outside of the normal ways. We were teleported here by accident and didn't agree to this, we don't want to be a part of this. We did come here for your treasure, and we didn't follow your clues." From what we've seen of her she probably would have wanted to hear the full story and if she had believed them, she probably would have felt like shit for what she had done since they didn't agree to it. She isn't a bad person; she's just playing the game in a way she thinks everyone there is down for. And when she saw that one guy wasn't down for it, she reset his level, no big deal in the long run. She might have kept the gun for herself then, it's a powerful piece of loot, but it's doubtful she would have kept pushing them or even killed them then. She probably would have just looted them and sent them away.

I'm a trauma councilor and deal with victims of actual rape often. I have one patient that can't even watch scenes in games or movies that have rape in them without having a panic attack. I and others have to vet all the media she consumes. She's getting better, she can watch some small things now if she knows about it going in, but it's still hard for her. So, I take the topic of rape seriously. I also take the topic of falsely labeling things as rape when they aren't seriously too. I don't want to get into the real-world applications of the view that consent can be withdrawn after the act is done. I've seen it destroy the lives of real students in my life (both male and female). Maat didn't commit a rape, she didn't even commit sexual assault, she committed sexual harassment at worst. She didn't know the leverage she had over them, she didn't know they weren't there by choice. Maat likes to turn the tables on people who have come to rob her, to reset her level and take her things, and she enjoys the danger in luring people in and then overcoming them. She assumed that everyone in the room was into that too, and when she realized the other guy wasn't she sent him home to the real world with a virtual bullet to the virtual brainpan. No one in the room was "forced" to do anything, there were not in real danger. They could have opted out at any moment and gone home to the real world.

I've gone on long enough, I thought about putting more but I'm ready to move on, so I'll just end this here. If anyone wants to add more, I may respond to direct comments or question but if not, that's cool too, we can all just move on from this. The ball is in everyone else's hands.

Edit: I want to be clear that, nothing I wrote was meant to be a personal attack or anything, it's just my thoughts and ideas. I hope nothing I said came across overly aggressive or anything. As I've said before, I'm a long-winded blowhard,

 

[jesusjackct]

Maat does simply kill the other guy when she sees he doesn't want to play the game. From her perspective the MC and Nova were still playing the game they agreed to play by coming to her server. She doesn't know that Nova's gun is a weapon of Atlas, she thinks that the MC and Nova are just using the "random gun that Nova has" as an excuse to keep playing along.

Just like the "murder" in the Roman server, or the medieval fantasy server. You join a server to take part in the game in the way that server is set up.


Your hypothetical example doesn't fit what we see because... (in no particular order)
1. This isn't the real world, or even set in the in-game real world, it is set in the in-game game of Eternum. A game everyone involved in has agreed to the risks of playing. Nova and Alex even bring up that the game can cause paralysis and blindness if you are disconnected improperly. It's one of the risks of play, just like cancer is a risk involved in smoking. You don't get to cry foul anymore if you get lung cancer from smoking for years. There was a time when servers (like cigarette companies) tried to hide what might happen there and use loophole to commit crimes (see point 4) but that seems to have been changed and now servers have to be upfront about what content they allow, and you are expected to participate in. From what we've heard there are even non-combat servers, I imagine committing virtual murder there gets you in trouble, while virtual killing someone in a combat server is just par for the course. The same with virtual sex.
2. Even in the real world, if you go to a free use rape-play party and there is a safe word given, or a way out (which in the context of the scene the MC and Nova have, they can just let Maat reset their level), or you see what is happening and stay then yes you are consenting to play along. You have said you enjoy being "forced" to do something "you don't want to" because you actually want to and are just pretending. The hypothetical falls short because that girl can just leave. If she can't leave, then it isn't a "sex party" that everyone came to voluntarily, it's lying, kidnapping, and raping. If she came voluntarily, saw that the guy was a fat old man, and she wasn't into it, she could have just left. And no, what she says matter, if there is a safe word and she says it and it doesn't end then yes, it is rape. If there was no safe word, then she was dumb for going, but yes then it would be rape in that context, but again, this hypothetical is so far removed from the scene as to be nonsensically.
3. The scene we are talking about happened in the context of a virtual world where death doesn't matter and is not permanent and no one shows up anywhere they don't want to be. If you go to a server where the hypothetical rule is, "You have to fuck the owner of the server when you arrive or get shot in the head." Yes, you consented to have sex or get killed. If I travel to England then I'm consenting to drive on that wrong side of the road. I'm consenting to not be allowed to carry my firearm in public. I'm consenting to all the laws of that land. If there were a free use country in this world then I wouldn't visit it, but if you did then yes you would be consenting to having sex acts done to you regardless of really wanting it at that moment. In the same way, if you join a server you are consenting to abide by the rules of that server, so if it is a free use server, well either don't go, or be ready to spread those legs and cheeks.
4. Nova and Alex even talked about people being excommunicated for trying to use server rules to take advantage of people (children specifically), perhaps with fine print, or by sharing access without disclosing the way the server operates. Luna even brings up cults being allowed broad range of privileges to do what they want, so it is likely that a sex cult could operate freely in Eternum so long as they were open about the rules of coming to their server. We see that in servers where rape is not allowed the Pretorians show up quickly. So, it stands to reason that since they didn't arrive when the MC and Nova were in trouble that either neither of their bodies (which the game reads all the vitals of, remember Luna talked about it being able to pull you out in case of fire or health issues) were not reacting with real distress, or Maat's server is set up to allow dubious consent in sex acts thus the Pretorians didn't come.
5. The other guy is the perfect argument against the example you gave. He didn't want to play Maat's game, so she reset his level. The MC could have closed his eyes and not watched; Nova could have refused to strip down. Would it have sucked to have their level reset, yes, but they could have come back the very next day with Luna, Dalia, Annie, Alex, and Calypso and gotten Nova's weapon back.

Nova and the MC would not have actually died if they had just said, "No Maat, we aren't playing your game, just kill us." They could have even told her the truth, "We found the Weapon of Atlas Calypso, it allows you to access servers outside of the normal ways. We were teleported here by accident and didn't agree to this, we don't want to be a part of this. We did come here for your treasure, and we didn't follow your clues." From what we've seen of her she probably would have wanted to hear the full story and if she had believed them, she probably would have felt like shit for what she had done since they didn't agree to it. She isn't a bad person; she's just playing the game in a way she thinks everyone there is down for. And when she saw that one guy wasn't down for it, she reset his level, no big deal in the long run. She might have kept the gun for herself then, it's a powerful piece of loot, but it's doubtful she would have kept pushing them or even killed them then. She probably would have just looted them and sent them away.

I'm a trauma councilor and deal with victims of actual rape often. I have one patient that can't even watch scenes in games or movies that have rape in them without having a panic attack. I and others have to vet all the media she consumes. She's getting better, she can watch some small things now if she knows about it going in, but it's still hard for her. So, I take the topic of rape seriously. I also take the topic of falsely labeling things as rape when they aren't seriously too. I don't want to get into the real-world applications of the view that consent can be withdrawn after the act is done. I've seen it destroy the lives of real students in my life (both male and female). Maat didn't commit a rape, she didn't even commit sexual assault, she committed sexual harassment at worst. She didn't know the leverage she had over them, she didn't know they weren't there by choice. Maat likes to turn the tables on people who have come to rob her, to reset her level and take her things, and she enjoys the danger in luring people in and then overcoming them. She assumed that everyone in the room was into that too, and when she realized the other guy wasn't she sent him home to the real world with a virtual bullet to the virtual brainpan. No one in the room was "forced" to do anything, there were not in real danger. They could have opted out at any moment and gone home to the real world.

I've gone on long enough, I thought about putting more but I'm ready to move on, so I'll just end this here. If anyone wants to add more, I may respond to direct comments or question but if not, that's cool too, we can all just move on from this. The ball is in everyone else's hands.

Edit: I want to be clear that, nothing I wrote was meant to be a personal attack or anything, it's just my thoughts and ideas. I hope nothing I said came across overly aggressive or anything. As I've said before, I'm a long-winded blowhard,

My man, ur fingers are bleeding

 

[JoeTheMC84]

My man, ur fingers are bleeding

Naw, I got mad callouses by now,

 

[Deleted member 2553135]

Maat didn't commit a rape, she didn't even commit sexual assault, she committed sexual harassment at worst. She didn't know the leverage she had over them, she didn't know they weren't there by choice.

I will put in my 2 cents. It probably is safe to assume that since the pretorians did not show up, the server is meant for this type of role-play. However, it could be counter-argued though that we do not know how strictly the company enforces these rules across the board though. Some servers may be more tightly handled than others (like the one MC was on), or the company may, and probably does, overlook a lot of crimes that happen if it benefits them. They are stronger than most countries, so they can get away with a lot. Most of this is just conjecture as we do not have all the information

In my opinion, the scene would be sexual assault even if Maat did not mean to do it. However, I can see why you might only call harassment, but at this point, it would just be an argument over semantics and real vs. Eternum world.

Anyway, some people will like the scene, some might not, but I do not think it destroys Nova's character at all. We can hopefully still embarrass her with compliments and go on dates with her in the future.

 

[bacienvu88]

Naw, I got mad callouses by now,

There is help, just put on these finger condoms:

 

[JoeTheMC84]

There is help, just put on these finger condoms:
View attachment 1870995

I find this picture oddly disturbing and yet I can't look away...

 

[chainedpanda]

...

I honestly couldn't care less rather or not it was consensual, harassment or complete sexual assault. My issue with the scene was something else entirely. I simply added my two cents due to seeing other people debating and I didn't agree with some of the things they said (still don't). However, you worked hard on that reply, so thought I should at least reply of my own no?

Yet, I can't do it. I tried three times to write a reply. Each time I tried to make the reply shorter, yet I kept going on longer than I wanted too and my attention span would simply dry up lol. Either way, it was a solid reply and you did make some solid points. However, I am not convinced it was "consensual" nor was there concent by any means.

I also believe you are overplaying certain parts, such as the "ability to leave" or in the characters case "ability to have their levels reset", because they also lose their items, and we were given no indication that they could just gather the crew and get revenge since we don't know if they can re-access servers they randomly found themselves in, even with the powers of the Elf lady. Nor are you taking into account the cultural and economical relevance of the game itself. Nor Nova's insecurities and her potential dependency on Atlas.

You also seemed to downplay the importance of the gun. Even if Maat didn't know it was Atlas, she still knew the gun was special due to Nova's reaction plus she mentioned how gun's weren't available on the server. She knew how much power she had over them, which is one of the key reasons why I believe she offed the other dude since she didn't have the same power over him.

Lastly, you are taking a TON of liberties on Maat's personality and kinks. In a game in which by having the right power, you could become the next owner of the worlds richest company. You tell her "We found two of the strongest weapons in the game, you're holding one right now, please let us go", you really think she'd just let them go? Most likely, she'd just kill the on the spot, take the weapon and give them no chance to escape alive.

 

[crustlord12]

I find this picture oddly disturbing and yet I can't look away...

it's for when you need to tan the rest of your hand from too much fingerless-glove wearing

 

[MagnusAxess]

This is the best game I've played in this genre it feels leagues ahead of others in quality and everything feels like how I would decide to do it if I were making games. Top quality.

 

[JoeTheMC84]

...
Each time I tried to make the reply shorter, yet I kept going on longer than I wanted too and my attention span would simply dry up lol.
...

I have the opposite problem, I can't seem to stop and every time I try I always find myself feeling the need to add more,

...
Lastly, you are taking a TON of liberties on Maat's personality and kinks. In a game in which by having the right power, you could become the next owner of the worlds richest company. You tell her "We found two of the strongest weapons in the game, you're holding one right now, please let us go", you really think she'd just let them go? Most likely, she'd just kill the on the spot, take the weapon and give them no chance to escape alive.
...

True enough here I suppose, I was forming hypotheticals in response to a hypothetical based on incomplete information and filling in blanks. So, I may have gotten lost in my liberties and assumptions. That's fair.