VN Ren'Py Fall of the Angels [v0.0.3] [13th Sin Games]

[_doodle_]

A vision is fine, when it's vague and not directly showing what's going to happen. Being shown the MC is going to be a teacher and the exact reason for being sent down before it's even spoken about in Chapter 1/2 is not a "direct foreshadowing" that's just straight up telling you the story in a prologue where it shouldn't be. It should be about the girls like it was supposed to be the entire reason for them, not spoiling reworked story points.

That's why people are negative about it. Leave story plot and MC interactions with the LI for the main chapters and keep prologues for the girls and their brief backstory.

The prologues are there to give info on events that happen before the main story begins. That's exactly what it's doing, except for those visions. The only major piece of information you get from the visions is that MC will be a teacher. That's pretty much it.

"oh no! The MC will become a teacher at some point, That ruins the story! How could they spoil such a thing when we don't fully understand when/how/why that happens?" is essentially what im seeing a lot of people say lol

The prologues are about the girls. That's like 80% of the reason for them all. They were always supposed to be about them and to expand their story and/or give backstory on some things. Some of the girls didnt get nearly the same amount of screentime as others in the original, and that's another reason for them. I saw complaints for that exact reason before. So we're getting more screentime for them and some of those same people are now complaing about it. Make it make sense. They're getting what they wanted, and since it's not the exact picture/plan they had in their heads, its not good. It's not even just those people, its people with every update i've been here for. People don't like it when it's even slightly off from their own idea.

I don't think people realize that it can be hard for the dev(or any dev for that matter) to see 95% negative comments on stuff they worked on. Yes, no matter who it is should be able to handle criticism but the level of it i've seen in this thread and on the discord is starting to seem like just straight up hating and sometimes hating just to hate. Seeing that constantly for anything can completely ruin the motivation of the person it's happening to. If that happens, then it means less time dev time because they know what will happen regardless of what they do, which means fewer updates and longer between them and that's whole different complaint lol. Imagine how this dev feels EACH update.

This site thrives on people who play the games for free and shit on those same games like they paid a fuck ton of money for it lmao. Im shocked that some devs manage to grow on this site to be honest. Some threads ive seen im genuinely shocked on why some devs even do it.

 

[Juerhullycin]

someone: I don't want my AI-controlled Tesla to drive over school children.
_doodle_: You are simply hating!

 

[Niuul]

The prologues are there to give info on events that happen before the main story begins. That's exactly what it's doing, except for those visions. The only major piece of information you get from the visions is that MC will be a teacher. That's pretty much it.

"oh no! The MC will become a teacher at some point, That ruins the story! How could they spoil such a thing when we don't fully understand when/how/why that happens?" is essentially what im seeing a lot of people say lol

The prologues are about the girls. That's like 80% of the reason for them all. They were always supposed to be about them and to expand their story and/or give backstory on some things. Some of the girls didnt get nearly the same amount of screentime as others in the original, and that's another reason for them. I saw complaints for that exact reason before. So we're getting more screentime for them and some of those same people are now complaing about it. Make it make sense. They're getting what they wanted, and since it's not the exact picture/plan they had in their heads, its not good. It's not even just those people, its people with every update i've been here for. People don't like it when it's even slightly off from their own idea.

I don't think people realize that it can be hard for the dev(or any dev for that matter) to see 95% negative comments on stuff they worked on. Yes, no matter who it is should be able to handle criticism but the level of it i've seen in this thread and on the discord is starting to seem like just straight up hating and sometimes hating just to hate. Seeing that constantly for anything can completely ruin the motivation of the person it's happening to. If that happens, then it means less time dev time because they know what will happen regardless of what they do, which means fewer updates and longer between them and that's whole different complaint lol. Imagine how this dev feels EACH update.

This site thrives on people who play the games for free and shit on those same games like they paid a fuck ton of money for it lmao. Im shocked that some devs manage to grow on this site to be honest. Some threads ive seen im genuinely shocked on why some devs even do it.

My guy... it's literally giving you story plot in the prologues when they're talking to Liz in the school classroom about the exact reason the MC is being sent down to the school and about the potential attacks. Then it's showing the the MC walking around the town, then it's showing the MC having dinner with them a little later. That's not before the main story begins, that's jumping way ahead in the story that you could potentially see before even beginning the main Chapter 1 and there's apparently going to be like 3 to 5 more prologues. How much story from the future is going ot be shown then? THATS what we're talking about with prologues causing the story to get jumbled jumping around in the timeline a lot. You're getting visions of the future while in the past about the MCs interations with them. Even you are saying they're supposed to be about the girls to expand their story. If you can't do that without slappign interactions between them and the MC than just leave it for the main chapters and forget the prologues.

I'm just going to put you on ignore now since I really don't wanna have to reply again and i know i will if i read another reply. Don't wanna flood up the thread with this over and over and over when the issue isn't this hard to understand.

 

[Chris2041]

My guy... it's literally giving you story plot in the prologues when they're talking to Liz in the school classroom about the exact reason the MC is being sent down to the school and about the potential attacks. Then it's showing the the MC walking around the town, then it's showing the MC having dinner with them a little later. That's not before the main story begins, that's jumping way ahead in the story that you could potentially see before even beginning the main Chapter 1 and there's apparently going to be like 3 to 5 more prologues. How much story from the future is going ot be shown then? THATS what we're talking about with prologues causing the story to get jumbled jumping around in the timeline a lot. You're getting visions of the future while in the past about the MCs interations with them. Even you are saying they're supposed to be about the girls to expand their story. If you can't do that without slappign interactions between them and the MC than just leave it for the main chapters and forget the prologues.

I'm just going to put you on ignore now since I really don't wanna have to reply again and i know i will if i read another reply. Don't wanna flood up the thread with this over and over and over when the issue isn't this hard to understand.

Yep the prologues are all over the place i didnt play the original game and give s try to the prologues and damm i was very confused and feel very spoiled WTF dev what a way yo not make me invested in thr story

 

[_doodle_]

someone: I don't want my AI-controlled Tesla to drive over school children.
_doodle_: You are simply hating!

yes because thats equal to what we were talking about lol. I will admit that did make me chuckle a little bit.

 

[Juerhullycin]

yes because thats equal to what we were talking about lol. I will admit that did make me chuckle a little bit.

It's a hyperbole that shows how absurd the take is if you follow it to its conclusion.

Maybe, just maybe, the amount of flak this update gets shows that there is something seriously wrong? Do you think all the people voicing their dissatisfaction all picked a game threat randomly to shit on a dev? Then shouldn't we see a similar amount of negative comments on every threat on the new update page, no? So why is that not the case?

Dev should take the criticism as a blessing. He has a fanbase that still hangs around even after all this time with needless remakes/remasters, putting boyfriends into the Li's lives and so on.

the threat could be as easily dead.

 

[13th Sin Games]

It's a hyperbole that shows how absurd the take is if you follow it to its conclusion.

Maybe, just maybe, the amount of flak this update gets shows that there is something seriously wrong? Do you think all the people voicing their dissatisfaction all picked a game threat randomly to shit on a dev? Then shouldn't we see a similar amount of negative comments on every threat on the new update page, no? So why is that not the case?

Dev should take the criticism as a blessing. He has a fanbase that still hangs around even after all this time with needless remakes/remasters, putting boyfriends into the Li's lives and so on.

the threat could be as easily dead.

I'm pretty sure you meant "thread" and not "threat". But at any rate, I do take most of the criticism. I say most, because there are some out there that don't help at all and are just unnecessarily rude and/or attacking.

There has only ever been one remake thus far, and it's the one currently being worked on. Am I beginning to regret even doing it this early? At the rate it's going, yes, because what I thought I had in mind would allow for way more story that was never there before and to fix things that felt too rushed. It's getting beyond demoralizing to have to keep seeing the same vicious or aggressive comment about them. I'm actively thinking of how to fix some of the problems that keeps getting brought up a thousand times. I gambled with doing a Remake early, and now I'm accepting the consequences for it... I don't know how many times I have to say, "I get it" or "I'm sorry".

One possible idea, and yes, I am open to some others, is that I move all but the MC's Prologue into a separate screen for the characters that'll have their Prologues and Side/Bonus Stories. The problem with that though is now some of you will feel like that's removing major plotlines from the Main Story or seen as meaningless or something along those lines. Another possibility is to move the Prologues into the Main Story chronologically, likely just going into the Main Story without there being a Prologue. Or, creating an actual Prologue, veeeeery early, as in MC being a child early or something similar, and then still proceed with having everything else follow chronologically.

I don't know if I said this before, but I am not the best when it comes to planning things ahead... and you can probably say "It clearly shows", which would be a totally fair criticism. There's never been an actual storyboard that I follow, it all happens in my head, which could be both good and bad, obviously. I am getting better at it for the Remake, or at least trying to be, because I want everyone to be able to enjoy the game without it feeling rushed or confusing... though, the latter needs some serious work it seems. I'll say this again... I get the frustration... I really, really do. I don't know how much clearer it can be seen with my four eyes. There's always room for fair and negative criticism, but anything more than that does not help.

 

[Skeltom]

There's never been an actual storyboard that I follow, it all happens in my head, which could be both good and bad, obviously.

I mean, it's always bad isn't it? It is a VN, at the very least there should be a rough draft of the beginning, middle and end and have the characters planned out. Doing things on the fly will just add a bunch of randomness and plot holes. A txt or md of notes in the project at the very least.

I personally don't know what the prologues are trying to do. Why does the player not learn the LI's back stories through interactions with them as the game plays out? Why do they all need a separate mini-story that just dumps info about them? They feel very disjointed from the actual plot. It's like they are trying to be fully explained at the startline which seems like would remove any mystery or real character development as the game goes on.

 

[KaosKally]

Just curious, what is the best download to get into this game? Old 0.3.4 or the new 0.0.3 ?

 

[Soulpuppet]

Just curious, what is the best download to get into this game? Old 0.3.4 or the new 0.0.3 ?

Before the remake is far superior.

 

[13th Sin Games]

I mean, it's always bad isn't it? It is a VN, at the very least there should be a rough draft of the beginning, middle and end and have the characters planned out. Doing things on the fly will just add a bunch of randomness and plot holes. A txt or md of notes in the project at the very least.

I personally don't know what the prologues are trying to do. Why does the player not learn the LI's back stories through interactions with them as the game plays out? Why do they all need a separate mini-story that just dumps info about them? They feel very disjointed from the actual plot. It's like they are trying to be fully explained at the startline which seems like would remove any mystery or real character development as the game goes on.

With the Remake, we've (my small team and I) been planning a lot better using Word and Trello. That, and knowing a lot of the already established story, we've mainly focused on adding missing content/story, filling in gaps, and slowing down a lot of the points that felt rushed.

As for them having mini-stories... I honestly don't know what you want me to say that's any different from what I've already said. Is it too much to give the characters that barely had screen-time more time on screen? Because that was a major complaint before. Not every character will have a Prologue; there will still be a sense of mystery among all of them.

Could I have fleshed out the timelines more? Sure, I'll concede to that. Flashbacks will still happen across all the characters of course. I am actively trying to make the game better and try to make it make more sense than I can possibly think of. The main issue is regardless of what I do to make it better, it's constantly getting shit on with little to no constructive criticism to go off of.

 

[Chris2041]

I mean, it's always bad isn't it? It is a VN, at the very least there should be a rough draft of the beginning, middle and end and have the characters planned out. Doing things on the fly will just add a bunch of randomness and plot holes. A txt or md of notes in the project at the very least.

I personally don't know what the prologues are trying to do. Why does the player not learn the LI's back stories through interactions with them as the game plays out? Why do they all need a separate mini-story that just dumps info about them? They feel very disjointed from the actual plot. It's like they are trying to be fully explained at the startline which seems like would remove any mystery or real character development as the game goes on.

This this guy gets it why i should see a prologue about a character when i could get the story whit MC talking whit that character getting bit and bits of the story the more they bond that would be more cool than random timeline prologues than leave you more lost than anything

 

[Chris2041]

With the Remake, we've (my small team and I) been planning a lot better using Word and Trello. That, and knowing a lot of the already established story, we've mainly focused on adding missing content/story, filling in gaps, and slowing down a lot of the points that felt rushed.

As for them having mini-stories... I honestly don't know what you want me to say that's any different from what I've already said. Is it too much to give the characters that barely had screen-time more time on screen? Because that was a major complaint before. Not every character will have a Prologue; there will still be a sense of mystery among all of them.

Could I have fleshed out the timelines more? Sure, I'll concede to that. Flashbacks will still happen across all the characters of course. I am actively trying to make the game better and try to make it make more sense than I can possibly think of. The main issue is regardless of what I do to make it better, it's constantly getting shit on with little to no constructive criticism to go off of.

Then you fail my bro whit how the timeline in that storys are at the moment to me a new player that didnt play before the remake i was very lost why the timelines between prologues you should probably first do the MC prologue and first chapters snd later introduce the girls prologues like extra chapters about this character

 

[Niuul]

With the Remake, we've (my small team and I) been planning a lot better using Word and Trello. That, and knowing a lot of the already established story, we've mainly focused on adding missing content/story, filling in gaps, and slowing down a lot of the points that felt rushed.

As for them having mini-stories... I honestly don't know what you want me to say that's any different from what I've already said. Is it too much to give the characters that barely had screen-time more time on screen? Because that was a major complaint before. Not every character will have a Prologue; there will still be a sense of mystery among all of them.

Could I have fleshed out the timelines more? Sure, I'll concede to that. Flashbacks will still happen across all the characters of course. I am actively trying to make the game better and try to make it make more sense than I can possibly think of. The main issue is regardless of what I do to make it better, it's constantly getting shit on with little to no constructive criticism to go off of.

I apologize if what I've said hasn't been constructive and just came across as me being an asshole so i'll try one last time and hope it lands properly this time.

MC prologue

This one actually worked fine for the most part, the Aliza dream could be viewed as a kind of foreshadowing. "Oh curious, what connection does this girl have with the mc?".

The UI at this point can lend itself to issues arising. It's labeled as viewing more prologues so as a new playing you go "alright, lets get more backstory" but what you're greeted with is the potential to have plotlines spoiled and timelines muddied since you get interactions between LI and the MC at different points in time.

Aliza Prologue

This prologue was also fine up until her dream about the MC. Which for some reason turned in to her dreaming from the MCs POV but again... it could be seen as "she really has a connection to the MC. wonder why". It's not a huge deal you find out here he's a teacher with Ryley, but it's something to think about again with story being told in prologues not Chapter 1.

Lily Jynlea Prologue

This again worked fine up until they eavesdrop on the conversation in the classroom with Liz talking to everyone about a Guardian Killer and that 2 more Guardians are going to be arriving to help also the fact Liz is here 'already' when she hasn't left in Chapter 2 yet. That's a pretty big spoiler to be dropping in a prologue don't you think? You haven't even been giving that knowledge (about the Guardian Killer) in the main chapters from what I remember. Liz is standing with you when she gets notified over the radio(?) about a powerful disturbance but that's about it. She hasn't left for the school yet. You know at this point the MC is eventually leaving to go teach so the Aliza Prologue makes sense now but again, it doesn't feel good to find this stuff out in prologues and not the main chapters.

So yeah, in conclusion the prologues need to be about the girls and not spoil story stuff that hasn't even happened yet to the player in the main chapters. Doubley so since you can view them all before starting Chapter 1.

For the sake of sanity and that they're already done it might be best to just leave them as they are but put locks on them until the proper information is given in the main Chapters. Prologue 1 and 2 can be unlocked now, but 3 gives too much away to be considered just a different POV or expansion of events that have happened or what they're supposed to be... a prologue. So a separeate menu screen with warnings that you'll see plot spoilers would work also.

Uhh... i think that's it.

 

[_doodle_]

This this guy gets it why i should see a prologue about a character when i could get the story whit MC talking whit that character getting bit and bits of the story the more they bond that would be more cool than random timeline prologues than leave you more lost than anything

i want to say this before i use it as an example, I have not played it so i'm not 100% familiar with it.

A good way to think about some of the prologues is this. If you ever played WVM, they have a "day in the life of Harper" mini-game/side story. I'm not too sure of when it takes place in that universe, that's why I said I'm not totally familiar. All that is, is essentially a giant flashback from what I've seen. Just adds some lore, pretty much. Another good way to think about it is the Core Memories from Inside Out. The prologues might just be covering events some of the characters think highly of, or are of some importance to them. That's similar to the idea that the prologues are trying to do.

As for the timeline thing, Prologue A might not be during the events of Prologue B, but might line up with Prologue C. We might not even know that's the case because it might not even be mentioned during said prologues or until someone in the story mentions what they were doing and when then someone says they were also busy that day or some.thing along those lines. That's all it really is, to be honest. I don't see it being much more than that. They could be within a few days or something, potentially, but again, that's all I see it being.

Honestly, some of the events in the prologues might still get mentioned in the actual game. If that's the case, then part of what the prologues are doing is just showing you that event. It goes from "Yeah, I met Brynn when she was homeless on a bench and sort of took her in" to actually seeing that all play out. That's just one example, of course, but that should give a good idea. You will still see them bond and get bits and pieces of their past or just info about them in general during the main story of course. They're just showing some events that happen that we might not have time to see, or just some "side stories" in a way. I used quotes because they might still play into the main story somehow and at some point, not entirely sure yet.

The not having a storyb board thing i can kind of understand. If im playing a game and the dev said they don't have one at all, it might make me think the same thing. However, like this dev said, he's using trello and some form of note app. In my personal opinion, that's already better than some devs i've seen. Some devs are just straight up like "I have an ending in mind and it's really up for grabs on how we get there" and they're 100% serious too lol. So as long as the dev writes down ideas and and actuall planned story, I personally can't get too upset because they're putting in the effort to plan it out and just say "fuck it" the entire time lol.

Like Niuul said before, I'm not trying to be an asshole or anything so i'm sorry if my tone or wording choice makes you think otherwise.

 

[Sirfappington123]

Not a writer myself but i'd say just write the story you want to write.

Constructive criticism is fine but if you listen to all of it at some point you're just going to be writing a different story to what you had in mind. I honestly wonder if there would have been a lot less complaints if you put the remake as it's own game on here, and set the old version to "finished".

 

[_doodle_]

Not a writer myself but i'd say just write the story you want to write.

Constructive criticism is fine but if you listen to all of it at some point you're just going to be writing a different story to what you had in mind. I honestly wonder if there would have been a lot less complaints if you put the remake as it's own game on here, and set the old version to "finished".

offtopic but goated name tbh

 

[Mommysbuttslut]

People don't like exposition. We want to get to know the girls by playing through their stories as the MC. It's not good for the storytelling when we know more about them than the MC does. A huge part of the fun isn't learning their backstories through exposition dumps, it's through learning their backstories alongside the MC. I'm not one for self inserting but that still ruins the whole connection the player and the main character are supposed to have in this kind of story.

 

[Juerhullycin]

I'm pretty sure you meant "thread" and not "threat". But at any rate, I do take most of the criticism. I say most, because there are some out there that don't help at all and are just unnecessarily rude and/or attacking.

There has only ever been one remake thus far, and it's the one currently being worked on. Am I beginning to regret even doing it this early? At the rate it's going, yes, because what I thought I had in mind would allow for way more story that was never there before and to fix things that felt too rushed. It's getting beyond demoralizing to have to keep seeing the same vicious or aggressive comment about them. I'm actively thinking of how to fix some of the problems that keeps getting brought up a thousand times. I gambled with doing a Remake early, and now I'm accepting the consequences for it... I don't know how many times I have to say, "I get it" or "I'm sorry".

One possible idea, and yes, I am open to some others, is that I move all but the MC's Prologue into a separate screen for the characters that'll have their Prologues and Side/Bonus Stories. The problem with that though is now some of you will feel like that's removing major plotlines from the Main Story or seen as meaningless or something along those lines. Another possibility is to move the Prologues into the Main Story chronologically, likely just going into the Main Story without there being a Prologue. Or, creating an actual Prologue, veeeeery early, as in MC being a child early or something similar, and then still proceed with having everything else follow chronologically.

I don't know if I said this before, but I am not the best when it comes to planning things ahead... and you can probably say "It clearly shows", which would be a totally fair criticism. There's never been an actual storyboard that I follow, it all happens in my head, which could be both good and bad, obviously. I am getting better at it for the Remake, or at least trying to be, because I want everyone to be able to enjoy the game without it feeling rushed or confusing... though, the latter needs some serious work it seems. I'll say this again... I get the frustration... I really, really do. I don't know how much clearer it can be seen with my four eyes. There's always room for fair and negative criticism, but anything more than that does not help.

yeah, i meant thread that was my dyslexia striking again.

I get it that constant criticism and attacks can wear you down. But you should really see the positive in the situation. You have people who care enough about your story to interact with it and comment on it. if that weren't the case, they would just drop it.

I don't want an apology from you. It's your story, and you can do whatever you want. I was never in the camp of people who thought we needed to know more about the characters. Like Skeltom said, we would learn more about them when MC interacted with them, that's what getting to know new people is all about after all.

As far as my personal opinion goes, you are doing monumental work for nothing. I don't play side stories, I don't care for what-ifs, and I believe that if it's something important dev would have put it into the main story, or it wasn't important enough anyway.

 

[Niuul]

yeah, i meant thread that was my dyslexia striking again.

I get it that constant criticism and attacks can wear you down. But you should really see the positive in the situation. You have people who care enough about your story to interact with it and comment on it. if that weren't the case, they would just drop it.

I don't want an apology from you. It's your story, and you can do whatever you want. I was never in the camp of people who thought we needed to know more about the characters. Like Skeltom said, we would learn more about them when MC interacted with them, that's what getting to know new people is all about after all.

As far as my personal opinion goes, you are doing monumental work for nothing. I don't play side stories, I don't care for what-ifs, and I believe that if it's something important dev would have put it into the main story, or it wasn't important enough anyway.

True. Gotta wonder how many people couldn't care less about the supposed "problems" because they simply will only play the main Chapters and maybe the prologues down the line lol.