Apr 3, 2019
256
779
is untrue. Not to mention that this estimate probably includes everything Crush has written thus far, but hasn't released yet, 40k lines are name lists, many of them very obscure (Greek? Seriously?), to the point I doubt they are used anywhere. And yes, 40 k lines are achieved by having a single name in a single line. So code takes way less space than claimed. And speaking of this:



I believe v1.4 had this thing, but the sheer amount of new files in v1.5 could've pushed the invention of new tricks. I remember seeing giant lists of "if/elseif" conditions in the code where clothes were on display - they got less in size. And about useful names of assets - well, you can take a look at the offline version. With it's 9k files of art. And see how they are named. Could be better, could be worse, IMO. And honestly, this game code gets opened in Notepad, though it looks clunky that way. Explore at your leisure. As you can see, if there's something you can point out for improvement, you'll be heard (not necessarily listened, but hey)

As a guy who reads his patreon, I can confirm that this fucking Dubai scene was scrapped and rewritten for like three times in the past six months, probably completely. Best practices for writing code, while helpful in other times, are of no use when you're a writer who's just that bad at writing, or thinks of himself as that bad, or too insecure, or too ambitious, or whatever. Smut isn't code, and Crush's currently (finally) writing smut rather than writing code. Honestly, for the locals (i.e. for non-supporters visiting this place IDK why) it may be best to follow the example of that one guy who visits this place annually. No expectations, no regrets, no discussions, just a check-up.
Yeah, I took a really quick look at the code, saw a bunch of definitions and names (the changelog is in there as well, we shouldn't count those as code or even content) that's why I said it. There is no reasonable way a game this size/scope should come close to even 10k lines of code, and that's with the bloat that is non minified HTML.


Also, if I'm criticising "the code" (really, more like "the decisions") it's because, well, that's basically all the recent updates have done. I can't really comment on new content (past ~mid 2018) because there hasn't been much of it.

Regardless, at this point is not so much "best coding practices" (whcih would help) as much as general project development/management. Rewriting a scene for the third time and remaking the tan lines is all the same thing, really. It's just that, if you add "poor coding" on top of that each mistake is even worse and delays the project more than it should.

I told him months ago: There will be things you have to rework, there will be things that you implement now and see that you have to expand later because you didn't consider one case. It happens to every single project, even something as immobile and (quite literally!) set in stone as a concrete building. Which is why, 9/10, it's better to keep going and have a pile of "things to fix" almost ignored for a while so you can see the whole picture.
 
  • Like
Reactions: black1ch

nottuide

Newbie
Dec 11, 2017
32
47
I've never understood this theory. Surely the game would get more support if the content came out faster? :unsure:
C'mon Crush, don't fool me: the longer it takes you to finish the game, the more money you milk from your supporters. It's the same old story, don't take it to personal, I can truly understand it (everyone loves money), but there are ways and ways to handle it with more fairness.
 

TBCheese

Newbie
Sep 30, 2017
32
38
Alright, if design goals are your fav subject, let's take a quick look at your "if you had done Bangkok after ver 1.x" options and see why people might have had some issues.

After 1.0:
Character customization features are nice, and a lot of people like them, but you already had options (if randomized). Granted, you were trying to sell a game with (eventually) character customization, but you took what was just a demo Sugarcube introduction to the story and put a menu on the front of it. There were maybe 5 choices in the game at that point, and it really could have used fleshing out the story, but your first update was a menu and drawing faces. Admittedly, this did only take about a week, so it wasn't that big of a delay.

After 1.1:
1.2 was actually a useful update. You were going to need a framework for sex eventually, and you'd put yourself in a position story-wise to get it done immediately. This was a good use of time.

After 1.2:
First of all, the nightclubs are only currently the sexiest parts of the game. If there is never planned to be anything better in Bangkok, what's the point of Bangkok being in the story at all? You don't play world 2 of Mario and then say "I don't need to play world 3 because this world is my favorite that I've seen so far!" You go on because it should get better.
Secondly, unlike the previously released scene, these club scenes weren't set up beforehand, and you no longer needed an intro into the sex mechanics. You had to spend time writing story, but instead of writing it in Bangkok, you wrote it prior to the mission. These sex scenes literally could have been the beginning of Bangkok. 3.5 months to get out an update with new writing, but you didn't advance the story forward.

After 1.3:
1) Things are still random. You're "RPG rules" still make random outcomes, you just have a set framework for tracking stats. Having a framework is useful, though.
2) You spent WAY too much time on this rule set. You're essentially using the exact same rule set as every other RPG ever with one difference: most of your stats don't matter. I can't use 100 xp in speaking Spanish, so why am I getting it, why do I have to see a pop up, and why are you wasting memory/code/time tracking it? Also, since it's the same as every other framework, why did you need to code it yourself? I highly doubt it's never been ported to sugarcube before, and even if it hasn't, you should be able to base it off of someone else's code anyway to have been much faster.
3) The lifepath really didn't add much to the game going forward. None of the sex partners from the life path are ever referenced, your college and extracurricular activities have no role to play, and no one mentions your family. People got upset when the Mass Effect 3 ending was "choose a color", so why wouldn't people be ticked off that you added in something prior to the story that has no effect on the game itself?

After 1.4:
In practice, this should have been fixed later. Also, the only extra work gained by waiting would have been using assets you already had on the first pass, and searching through the code to find where the replacement assets needed to be put. You need the new artwork for Bangkok regardless of if you draw the assets first or write the story first. There is zero "extra" new drawings made by waiting. You still need them either way.
This, however, isn't quite the real problem, because IIRC this is when you brought in someone new to do the artwork. They made all of the art for 1.5. The problem is that you spent your time coding the new artwork into the game, when the artist should have done that. You should have been spending those 6 months writing story.

After 1.5:
You're right. The sex scenes would have been the same, and people would do a lot of clicking without really reading the passages. You don't want that to be the final quality level of the game? Great.
That doesn't mean that it needed to be fixed first. You had a reasonable placeholder event, and there are only 5 places it's used in the entire game, and the amateur backstage video was made to be unique (to a degree) already. You didn't need to upgrade them until there were a decent number of them in the game in the first place. They don't seem repetitive now because they're too low quality, they seem repetitive because the game demo is so short.
Worse, the fact that you've allowed your perfectionist side to get the better of you here means you'll likely have a harder time writing Bangkok, because you will also have to write full sex scenes at the same time instead of using a generic placeholder to get the main story prepared before going back and polishing.

You claimed to be making a game about a spy working in a brothel in Bangkok, but aside from update 1.2 and a small portion of 1.4, you haven't made progress toward actually having a game about that. You've spent a TON of time working on things that really should have been low priority tasks.

I honestly think you've really hurt yourself a lot in this project. Instead of making a good, basic framework to build off of, you've tried to make a highly detailed introduction. That's going to change how you approach building the rest of the game, and I think you're setting yourself up for failure by focusing on low priority tasks and delegating tasks inefficiently. Good luck though.
 

Osodrac13

Newbie
Oct 4, 2017
76
142
Serious talking now: Crush, i love your game and all ideas envolving the concept. But really, 2 years is a long long time for a game. In 2 years we can marry and be forbidden to fap for a psycho wife; we can be slaved and work 24 hours a day all days or we can die (now more probable than ever).

The development of this game reminds me the Cronicle of Ice and Fire (George R.R.Martin), but, in that case, i really give up of the book. Don't let us give up of this fantastic game. Release more often, at least, some piece of magic, and we will not forget your game.
 

ScarletCrow

Newbie
Mar 14, 2017
88
103
Worse, the fact that you've allowed your perfectionist side to get the better of you here means you'll likely have a harder time writing Bangkok, because you will also have to write full sex scenes at the same time instead of using a generic placeholder to get the main story prepared before going back and polishing.
OK...OK... I think it's been discussed over and over again, how Crush's "perfectionism" or should I say, writer "insecurities" halt the progress of the game. There needs to be a point where they got to push on no matter what. I think 1.7 will be the point, let's just hope and see.

I don't think he's a con-man. I agree with someone who said something about Hanlon's razor. I think that's the case here. But nevertheless, in a real professional settings, incompetence alone can cost you a job. But well, the patreon adult game scene has never been known as being very "professional". The whole thing was built on the basis of hype, trust, and goodwill. And it should keep being that way. Don't think I want to watch the corporate BS the game studios pull nowadays here as well.

Regarding the timeline, well, AAA games with much bigger team are also known to be delayed for years. Shit happens. Bad decision happens. Time spent undoing the shitty decision will eat into the development time, no matter how big or small the team is. And as I said, patreon scene has never been very "strict" and "professional". Actually, it's a good move by Crush to communicate with the fans at least. Any other game with the updates this slow will just be forgotten by the audience. He's actually been able to keep the heartbeat going just by publishing the "development" progress in his patreon.
 
Last edited:

Mercedes

Active Member
Nov 19, 2017
710
859
It's not just the need for crush. It is also the players with their ideas who delay the game because it also makes it bigger and better.
A new dev test from today showed me 3 new passages that can be unlocked depending on the character created and his lifepath decisions. And these are not one-liners.

But that is exactly what also brings more and more depth and freedom to all other content, especially for bangkok. To let the player decide what his kate can experience.
 
  • Like
Reactions: junkanon

Sorter

Active Member
Aug 11, 2017
995
431
Reporting a bug - In the scene at the Alps school, I get this: The school has a strong international outlook, and every girl leaves here speaking fluent French and English. Since you already speak French well, choose a different language to learn.

Arabic.
Error: child tag <</if>> was found outside of a call to its parent macro <<if>>

I chose Canadian start (True North Stronk and Free!), therefore I know both English and French. I assume there should be more choices here?
 

ScarletCrow

Newbie
Mar 14, 2017
88
103
It's not just the need for crush. It is also the players with their ideas who delay the game because it also makes it bigger and better.
A new dev test from today showed me 3 new passages that can be unlocked depending on the character created and his lifepath decisions. And these are not one-liners.

But that is exactly what also brings more and more depth and freedom to all other content, especially for bangkok. To let the player decide what his kate can experience.
I mean, of course we all have images of how the ideal game should be. But for the sake of the project, the devs also need to be able to say no. I'm not denying the quality of the game, and I also want more. But cmon, be realistic here, if the stories (and avatar, it seems) are so personalised that each will have to take months to complete, then the game will never be in a playable state, let alone completed. And by playable, I mean we can have a substantial playthrough that captures the essence of the game. Not just glimpse and peeks like what the game has right now.

Sharpx19 had a point. Many players won't have the patience to go explore every other branch in the game. So they got to be able to strike balance between depth and breadth. They cannot just dwell on just one story until it's perfect, because many players won't even see them. Cmon, this is a sex game. Some fetishes will actually become a turn off for some people, people will never go explore the branch with piss play or spanking if it's not really what they're into.

I understand wanting to have the ideal game that can capture everything, but they need to balance it against their resources. From what I gather, Crush is the only one writing all the stories. Just think, if you really want the stories to have gazillion variations depending on every little stats. How far can Crush carry the game in any reasonable timeline before all the patrons burn out?
 

ScarletCrow

Newbie
Mar 14, 2017
88
103
Reporting a bug - In the scene at the Alps school, I get this: The school has a strong international outlook, and every girl leaves here speaking fluent French and English. Since you already speak French well, choose a different language to learn.

Arabic.
Error: child tag <</if>> was found outside of a call to its parent macro <<if>>

I chose Canadian start (True North Stronk and Free!), therefore I know both English and French. I assume there should be more choices here?
Maybe you should post in their discord, or use the bug report that is available in the game.
 

Osodrac13

Newbie
Oct 4, 2017
76
142
I don't think Crush is delaying propositally, he looks more like a perfeccionist. Point is, nothing in life is perfect. Better a unfinished version than nothing. Imperfecctions could be fixed, but a losed patience don't.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rixen

Mercedes

Active Member
Nov 19, 2017
710
859
There have often been opportunities for players to teach their own ideas about vignettes. Some of them are pure scripts, others are already completely written.
A few weeks ago there was an introduction to the 30 best stories. But even those that actually contain a complete story still have to be integrated into the engine. For example, references to kinks or other dependencies that the writers have incorporated.
 

Crushstation

Member
Game Developer
Sep 21, 2017
290
1,099
asdfasdf12341234ACSACA I feel like we're getting off track with the code discussion, but since Ppsha accused me of lying about the length of the source code:

Screenshot 2020-03-28 at 17.39.32.png

It's 129,532 lines long in the code editor (before it's compiled). Of course this includes content, change log, name lists (and I assume that most people here understand why a game about a tourist brothel can generate international names), etc.

Ppsha was also wrong to suggest the art asset variants are manually input. They're dynamically generated like this:

Screenshot 2020-03-28 at 17.45.05.png

The idea of automating repository pushes is interesting, but do you really think it would save that much time? If not, have you got any other suggestions?
 

Crushstation

Member
Game Developer
Sep 21, 2017
290
1,099
C'mon Crush, don't fool me: the longer it takes you to finish the game, the more money you milk from your supporters. It's the same old story, don't take it to personal, I can truly understand it (everyone loves money), but there are ways and ways to handle it with more fairness.
Ahhhh, I see what you're saying. That might be a risk if the story had a fixed length (e.g. if it were structured like an episode of 24, where once the episode clock reaches 23:46:00 the writer has to finish the story in the next 14 minutes).

In that case, yeah, the writer might not want to get to the end. (Although I still think this is an unlikely theory, really. Imagine writing something that actually attracted an audience willing to pay for it – and then deciding that the sensible thing to do is fuck with those people for moar money. I don't see it.)

Anyway, that's not the case for Female Agent. The main quest is specifically written without a deadline – the heroine's job is to survive undercover in Bangkok. Once Bangkok is set up, we can create new story content for as long as the community is willing to support it!

So yeah, I do want the project to continue earning money (for as long as we're still adding meaningful content, that is – I'm sure nobody will be playing this in 2030), but my evil plan for that is to produce more content, it's exactly the opposite of what you suspect. :)
 
Last edited:

Crushstation

Member
Game Developer
Sep 21, 2017
290
1,099
Wow, are those 130k lines all in one file?? I can't imagine the headache one will get from maintaining it in the future. o_O
Tell me about it. :geek:

We use a really great text editor called , which makes the whole thing a bit easier to navigate and manage.
 
Apr 3, 2019
256
779
Tell me about it. :geek:

We use a really great text editor called , which makes the whole thing a bit easier to navigate and manage.
You're missing the point.

We didn't even say "There aren't 130k lines of code". We, too, can see the source code, both in the online and offline version. We said "There aren't 130k lines of actual code, most of it is content". Why? Because some of us have actually written code before. Or because we know that games that are much, much deeper (and, well, fully featured) have less lines. Minecraft (The first few public versions) was ~150k lines. VVVVVV (which is notorious for being a bad source code) is around 12k lines. That's why, when you say "nope, 130k lines, totally legit", we simply know it's not an accurate statement.

This post also illustrates what we've been saying of "You should have the foresight to know when there are better ways to handle something". The game is barely started. It should not be a pain to maintain. Not to mention, with a filesize that big, diff tools tend to start complaining - Not big complaints, but they're not as efficient as with fewer lines

What I'm trying to say is what (again) I said a while ago: It is clear that you didn't have previous programming experience (besides, at most, one online tutorial). That is perfectly fine! Everyone has to start somewhere. What is not perfectly fine is the stubborness when we point out issues that happened because of your inexperience, and you brush them off in a "It works for me!" statement.

Basically, Crush is the perfect example of "Great ideas, poor execution."
 

Crushstation

Member
Game Developer
Sep 21, 2017
290
1,099
You're missing the point.

We didn't even say "There aren't 130k lines of code". We, too, can see the source code, both in the online and offline version. We said "There aren't 130k lines of actual code, most of it is content". Why? Because some of us have actually written code before. Or because we know that games that are much, much deeper (and, well, fully featured) have less lines. Minecraft (The first few public versions) was ~150k lines. VVVVVV (which is notorious for being a bad source code) is around 12k lines. That's why, when you say "nope, 130k lines, totally legit", we simply know it's not an accurate statement.

This post also illustrates what we've been saying of "You should have the foresight to know when there are better ways to handle something". The game is barely started. It should not be a pain to maintain. Not to mention, with a filesize that big, diff tools tend to start complaining - Not big complaints, but they're not as efficient as with fewer lines

What I'm trying to say is what (again) I said a while ago: It is clear that you didn't have previous programming experience (besides, at most, one online tutorial). That is perfectly fine! Everyone has to start somewhere. What is not perfectly fine is the stubborness when we point out issues that happened because of your inexperience, and you brush them off in a "It works for me!" statement.

Basically, Crush is the perfect example of "Great ideas, poor execution."
Okay, thanks for the helpful input asdfasdf12341234ACSACA
 
  • Like
Reactions: nahwhythough
Apr 3, 2019
256
779
One very simple way to tackle this (it is far from the best, but it's the easiest and quickest with the current state of things) is to, at least, split the current Big File into multiple files, then either manually or with an automated tool, quite literally copy and paste the contents of each file into a new ("compiled") file.

Each file doesn't necessarily have to be self contained (you can have unit tests later down the line), but at its current state, you could quite literally do:

SugarcubeShell.html (Just the first ~1000 lines? for the sugarcube definitions)
CSSStuff.txt(The fancy CSS definitions at the beginning)
Changelog.txt (the 5k or however many lines of changelog)
MaleNames.txt (you get the point)
FemaleNames
CharacterCustomization
Lifepath
FirstMission
SecondMission
ThirdMission(... and on and on)


The "compiling" stage would just be copying and pasting (in the right order!) one file after another. This can easily be automated, but even doing it manually isn't that bad

Yeah, it's still going to be 130k lines of code intermingled with assets and content, but at least it will be split in different files that can be maintained independently, diff'd (and tested, later on) independently, and merged independently.
 
3.50 star(s) 113 Votes